Re: Suggestion for improving FAQ14: UUIDs
On 23/02/06 09:35, Thomas Dettbarn wrote: > Hello! > > tl;dr: I would like to suggest adding a line about the virtues of UUID to the > FAQ14. Something along the lines of "Remember to set up the UUID in your > /etc/fstab afterwards." or something. It does outline this problem here. https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#DUID OpenBSD creates an fstab(5) using DUIDs during installation if I'm not mistaken. So in order for this to happen, a user would likely open /etc/fstab in an editor and see those entries post-install, and then after they notice them they would have to ignore whatever doubts cropped up and add in a /dev/* entry anyway.
Suggestion for improving FAQ14: UUIDs
Hello! tl;dr: I would like to suggest adding a line about the virtues of UUID to the FAQ14. Something along the lines of "Remember to set up the UUID in your /etc/fstab afterwards." or something. The thing is, I have a RAID-5 setup in my system. One which I was able to set up, thanks to this one: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html The entry in my /etc/fstab is now /dev/sd7p /home ffs rw,nodev,nosuid 1 2 Which. Is. Stupid. I know: Yesterday, I wanted to boot my System, but I forgot to unplug a USB-Device, which got mapped to sd7. So then I was unable to mount the /home. If I WOULD HAVE BEEN smarter, I would have used a UUID in my fstab. Anyways, it is my believe that adding a line to each section might help the next person as stupid as me, hence my suggestion. Thomas
Re: Suggestion for small improvement in acme-client.conf.5
On Sat, Jan 09, 2021 at 05:08:14PM +0100, Wolf wrote: > Hello, > > I have small suggestion for improving man page for acme-client.conf.5. > Basically just adding "comma separated" to clarify on the format of the > list for alternative names. I had to dig into the parser.y to figure > this out, so it would be nice to have it documented. > hi. a modified version of this diff now committed. thanks, jmc > diff --git a/acme-client.conf.5 b/acme-client.conf.5 > index 7971fb6..a47a8e2 100644 > --- a/acme-client.conf.5 > +++ b/acme-client.conf.5 > @@ -125,9 +125,9 @@ If not specified, the > .Ar handle > of the domain block will be used as common name. > .It Ic alternative names Brq ... > -Specify a list of alternative names for which the certificate will be valid. > -The common name is included automatically if this option is present, > -but there is no automatic conversion/inclusion between "www." and > +Specify a comma separated list of alternative names for which the certificate > +will be valid. The common name is included automatically if this option is > +present, but there is no automatic conversion/inclusion between "www." and > plain domain name forms. > .It Ic domain key Ar file Op Ar keytype > The private key file for which the certificate will be obtained. > > > Have a nice day, > W. > > -- > There are only two hard things in Computer Science: > cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors.
Re: Suggestion for small improvement in acme-client.conf.5
Hello, On 2021-01-09 22:20:26 +, Stuart Henderson wrote: > On 2021-01-09, Wolf wrote: > > I have small suggestion for improving man page for acme-client.conf.5. > > Basically just adding "comma separated" to clarify on the format of the > > list for alternative names. I had to dig into the parser.y to figure > > this out, so it would be nice to have it documented. > > Thanks, but commas are optional, whitespace is fine here too, > so I don't think this change makes sense directly. Oh, now I see it. I didn't check far enough through the grammar, I saw token `comma' and assumed it is, well a comma. You are right, comma can also be nothing. Sorry for not checking properly in the first place. Have a nice day, W. -- There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Suggestion for small improvement in acme-client.conf.5
On 2021-01-09, Wolf wrote: > I have small suggestion for improving man page for acme-client.conf.5. > Basically just adding "comma separated" to clarify on the format of the > list for alternative names. I had to dig into the parser.y to figure > this out, so it would be nice to have it documented. Thanks, but commas are optional, whitespace is fine here too, so I don't think this change makes sense directly. > diff --git a/acme-client.conf.5 b/acme-client.conf.5 > index 7971fb6..a47a8e2 100644 > --- a/acme-client.conf.5 > +++ b/acme-client.conf.5 > @@ -125,9 +125,9 @@ If not specified, the > .Ar handle > of the domain block will be used as common name. > .It Ic alternative names Brq ... > -Specify a list of alternative names for which the certificate will be valid. > -The common name is included automatically if this option is present, > -but there is no automatic conversion/inclusion between "www." and > +Specify a comma separated list of alternative names for which the certificate > +will be valid. The common name is included automatically if this option is btw, please use a new line for a new sentence in manpages. > +present, but there is no automatic conversion/inclusion between "www." and > plain domain name forms. > .It Ic domain key Ar file Op Ar keytype > The private key file for which the certificate will be obtained. > > > Have a nice day, > W. >
Suggestion for small improvement in acme-client.conf.5
Hello, I have small suggestion for improving man page for acme-client.conf.5. Basically just adding "comma separated" to clarify on the format of the list for alternative names. I had to dig into the parser.y to figure this out, so it would be nice to have it documented. diff --git a/acme-client.conf.5 b/acme-client.conf.5 index 7971fb6..a47a8e2 100644 --- a/acme-client.conf.5 +++ b/acme-client.conf.5 @@ -125,9 +125,9 @@ If not specified, the .Ar handle of the domain block will be used as common name. .It Ic alternative names Brq ... -Specify a list of alternative names for which the certificate will be valid. -The common name is included automatically if this option is present, -but there is no automatic conversion/inclusion between "www." and +Specify a comma separated list of alternative names for which the certificate +will be valid. The common name is included automatically if this option is +present, but there is no automatic conversion/inclusion between "www." and plain domain name forms. .It Ic domain key Ar file Op Ar keytype The private key file for which the certificate will be obtained. Have a nice day, W. -- There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Installer suggestion
On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 6:36 PM Theo de Raadt wrote: > > There have also been proposals that IF we the files are present in the > ramdisk, we use them. But then the questions are not in the same order > for all install methods. Another proposal was for upgrades if the files > exist in the base, we use those. But sometimes new files show up, or old > files go away. So again, the order of the questions could vary depending > on install or upgrade method. That feels like too much of a surprise, > so I have no intention of changing it. > And it would probably be too error prone to just accept the input regardless if the timezone exists or not.
Re: Installer suggestion
Christer Solskogen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 4:43 PM Christopher Turkel < > turkel.christop...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Why would you want that? I’m curious. > > > Just to place it together with the rest of the questions. Bulk them > together so to speak. > Now the installation waits for input about the timezone, before it > continues with relinking the kernel and fills /dev etc. > > But it doesn't matter. Theo just explained why. There have also been proposals that IF we the files are present in the ramdisk, we use them. But then the questions are not in the same order for all install methods. Another proposal was for upgrades if the files exist in the base, we use those. But sometimes new files show up, or old files go away. So again, the order of the questions could vary depending on install or upgrade method. That feels like too much of a surprise, so I have no intention of changing it.
Re: Installer suggestion
On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 4:43 PM Christopher Turkel < turkel.christop...@gmail.com> wrote: > Why would you want that? I’m curious. Just to place it together with the rest of the questions. Bulk them together so to speak. Now the installation waits for input about the timezone, before it continues with relinking the kernel and fills /dev etc. But it doesn't matter. Theo just explained why.
Re: Installer suggestion
Christer Solskogen wrote: > Would it make sense to move the timezone question to before the fetching > and extraction of the install sets starts? No, because the timezone files are in the sets, because they don't fit on all the media.
Re: Installer suggestion
Why would you want that? I’m curious. On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, Christer Solskogen < christer.solsko...@gmail.com> wrote: > Would it make sense to move the timezone question to before the fetching > and extraction of the install sets starts? > > -- > chs >
Installer suggestion
Would it make sense to move the timezone question to before the fetching and extraction of the install sets starts? -- chs
Re: suggestion for the installer
On 10/29/20 3:38 PM, Nick Holland wrote:
On 2020-10-29 08:00, Harald Dunkel wrote:
Hi folks,
do you think it would be possible for the installer to show
an eye-catching warning, if "ifconfig" reports "no carrier"
for the network port to configure?
Just a suggestion, of course
Harri
Why?
Because accidents happen. You plugin a cable in the left
socket and em0 turns out to be the right one. Imagine a
network appliance with ports labeled eth{1..8} instead
of eth{0..7}.
Sorry for asking
Harri
Re: suggestion for the installer
it possibly an inline indicator on wired on question which interface do you want to configure em0, em1 (down), em2down) [em0] : but wireless interfaces will always be down before you associate with the AP... that said if using DHCP it is pretty obvious when a link is down... and on a static ip you know how to set it so you know how to run ifconfig to diagnose it... I dont feel that strongly about it ... but i can see it would help in some situation ... so if there is an existing network status line in the installer perhaps appending a lnk down message there would be helpful without impacting someone's terminal (as highlighted by Theo and Nick) All the best, Tom Smyth On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 at 16:10, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > Nick Holland wrote: > > > On 2020-10-29 08:00, Harald Dunkel wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > do you think it would be possible for the installer to show > > > an eye-catching warning, if "ifconfig" reports "no carrier" > > > for the network port to configure? > > > > > > Just a suggestion, of course > > > Harri > > > > Why? > > What problem are you trying to solve, and how many are you > > planning on making for me in the process? > > > > I often end up setting up OpenBSD systems with no network > > attached. Nothing to warn me about. > > > > I very often install OpenBSD configuring several NICs when > > only one has a network currently. Again, PLEASE don't give > > me three, five or ten bogus warning messages. > > Precisely. vertical screen real-estate is valuable. People > often look up higher at what they've already done, and a warning > would consume 1 line per interface, and reduce the visible context > for a person performing an multi-network install manually, thereby > increasing potential error. > -- Kindest regards, Tom Smyth.
Re: suggestion for the installer
Nick Holland wrote: > On 2020-10-29 08:00, Harald Dunkel wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > do you think it would be possible for the installer to show > > an eye-catching warning, if "ifconfig" reports "no carrier" > > for the network port to configure? > > > > Just a suggestion, of course > > Harri > > Why? > What problem are you trying to solve, and how many are you > planning on making for me in the process? > > I often end up setting up OpenBSD systems with no network > attached. Nothing to warn me about. > > I very often install OpenBSD configuring several NICs when > only one has a network currently. Again, PLEASE don't give > me three, five or ten bogus warning messages. Precisely. vertical screen real-estate is valuable. People often look up higher at what they've already done, and a warning would consume 1 line per interface, and reduce the visible context for a person performing an multi-network install manually, thereby increasing potential error.
Re: suggestion for the installer
Hi Harald, If im not mistaken when the installer is running when you configure dhcp on the interface t will warn you that it is not receiving any leases. I can see your concerns about the static ip configuration at a guess I think the issue is there is no config on the interfaces so they havent yet been instructed to start or put a config on them... as a workaround when you start up the installer you can select shell or hit c to exit the installer back to a shell and you can can do ifconfig interface name or ifconfig interface_name up and when you are done checking you can run the install to restart the install process I hope this helps a little On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 at 12:06, Harald Dunkel wrote: > > Hi folks, > > do you think it would be possible for the installer to show > an eye-catching warning, if "ifconfig" reports "no carrier" > for the network port to configure? > > Just a suggestion, of course > Harri > -- Kindest regards, Tom Smyth.
Re: suggestion for the installer
On 2020-10-29 08:00, Harald Dunkel wrote: > Hi folks, > > do you think it would be possible for the installer to show > an eye-catching warning, if "ifconfig" reports "no carrier" > for the network port to configure? > > Just a suggestion, of course > Harri Why? What problem are you trying to solve, and how many are you planning on making for me in the process? I often end up setting up OpenBSD systems with no network attached. Nothing to warn me about. I very often install OpenBSD configuring several NICs when only one has a network currently. Again, PLEASE don't give me three, five or ten bogus warning messages. Usually if I'm doing an install, I look to see if the link light on the NIC and the switch port is lit. If I'm using DHCP, I'll quickly know if there's a network problem. Come to think of it, if I'm NOT using DHCP, I'll quickly know, too. If I'm installing to an unknown system, I almost always first drop to (s)hell from the installer, look at my dmesg, look at the network port options and see if I'm plugged into the NIC port I think I am (ifconfig), look at my disks to see if they are recognized as I expect and see if I'm about to clobber something I might consider important. So...I think what you are trying to accomplish can be done as things are without adding to the wonderfully simple OpenBSD installer. Nick.
suggestion for the installer
Hi folks, do you think it would be possible for the installer to show an eye-catching warning, if "ifconfig" reports "no carrier" for the network port to configure? Just a suggestion, of course Harri
Re: Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
The hardware is good. After an AC incident, I've had some of those cavium nics melt the cpu thermal paste, dripping all over the mainboard. (this nics are inserted into a riser card, facing down the mainboard) The machine kept running! A quarta, 24/06/2020, 21:12, Pierre Emeriaud escreveu: > Le mer. 24 juin 2020 à 13:01, Stuart Henderson a > écrit : > > > > On 2020-06-23, Daniel Ouellet wrote: > > > OpenBSD does run on some old Cisco routers, it's been done before. Sure > > > it's not officially supported nor does it support all the various > > > interfaces but it's known to work on some. > > Not a router per se, but my home gateway is a Cisco ACE 4710 appliance > running 6.6, with multiple rdomains, tinc vpns, bgp full ipv6 table > and a couple of nics, and a 4GB cf as harddisk. > > > > I am trying to dig up a dmesg showing it too. > > https://dmesgd.nycbug.org/index.cgi?do=view&id=4760 > > > > Here is an example using the4 old Cisco IDS-4215 > > > > > > > https://komlositech.wordpress.com/2018/12/30/revive-a-cisco-ids-into-a-capable-openbsd-firewall/ > > > > > > I was just curious as to what stage it might be now. > > > > That's just someone reusing janky old hardware that is being thrown out, > > there is no particular effort to support it on the OpenBSD side. > > My hardware is really ancient compared to modern servers: > $ sysctl hw.model > hw.model=Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.40GHz > > It draws power for sure, much more than an APU or similar, but I like it :) > > The install was straightforward, install on the CF from another host > w/ qemu, plug, boot, done. > > > > May be Juniper instead as Juniper is based on FreeBSD anyway and it's > an > > > over price PC with specialize network cards. (; Ok more then that, but > > > you get the picture I think. > > > > they're devices with network forwarding ASICs that happen to use a > > FreeBSD system as the control plane (and are moving to Linux now but > > I digress).. networking on the control plane is really limited and > > only meant for management, beyond that you need to interface with > > the special hardware. > > The Cisco ACE4710 had a specialized nic, a cavium (octeon?), running > linux on a mips cpu, to offload all the heavy lifting. I removed it > and never tried to use it. > > I also tried to install 5.sth on a nokia IP 710 firewall, that didn't > go that well because of some pci & acpi issues iirc, and overall it > was less interesting because of the huge form factor, and the > linecards beeing proprietary. > >
Re: Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
Le mer. 24 juin 2020 à 13:01, Stuart Henderson a écrit : > > On 2020-06-23, Daniel Ouellet wrote: > > OpenBSD does run on some old Cisco routers, it's been done before. Sure > > it's not officially supported nor does it support all the various > > interfaces but it's known to work on some. Not a router per se, but my home gateway is a Cisco ACE 4710 appliance running 6.6, with multiple rdomains, tinc vpns, bgp full ipv6 table and a couple of nics, and a 4GB cf as harddisk. > > I am trying to dig up a dmesg showing it too. https://dmesgd.nycbug.org/index.cgi?do=view&id=4760 > > Here is an example using the4 old Cisco IDS-4215 > > > > https://komlositech.wordpress.com/2018/12/30/revive-a-cisco-ids-into-a-capable-openbsd-firewall/ > > > > I was just curious as to what stage it might be now. > > That's just someone reusing janky old hardware that is being thrown out, > there is no particular effort to support it on the OpenBSD side. My hardware is really ancient compared to modern servers: $ sysctl hw.model hw.model=Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.40GHz It draws power for sure, much more than an APU or similar, but I like it :) The install was straightforward, install on the CF from another host w/ qemu, plug, boot, done. > > May be Juniper instead as Juniper is based on FreeBSD anyway and it's an > > over price PC with specialize network cards. (; Ok more then that, but > > you get the picture I think. > > they're devices with network forwarding ASICs that happen to use a > FreeBSD system as the control plane (and are moving to Linux now but > I digress).. networking on the control plane is really limited and > only meant for management, beyond that you need to interface with > the special hardware. The Cisco ACE4710 had a specialized nic, a cavium (octeon?), running linux on a mips cpu, to offload all the heavy lifting. I removed it and never tried to use it. I also tried to install 5.sth on a nokia IP 710 firewall, that didn't go that well because of some pci & acpi issues iirc, and overall it was less interesting because of the huge form factor, and the linecards beeing proprietary.
Re: Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
On 6/24/20 11:58 AM, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2020-06-23, Daniel Ouellet wrote: Have a look through https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/embedded/servers / https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/embedded/rackmount and you'll find quite a few things that give the perception "solid custom network device" rather than either "repurposed server" or "cisco junk, well past it's sell-by date, <$100 on ebay" - things like these https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/system/1U/1019/SYS-1019D-FRN8TP.cfm https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/system/1U/5019/SYS-5019D-4C-FN8TP.cfm (some equipment from other vendors will fit the bill too, but supermicro is a lot easier to buy from than portwell etc). I agree totally here with Stuart! In the past I have built a router using a SuperMicro 4U chassis with Xeon E5 cpu. https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/chassis/4U/842/SC842TQC-668B Originally OpenBSD didn't support the RAID controller so I used the root backup cron dd script. Everything else was fine however, and it's performance has been incredible with the only downtime being during maintenance periods -> transitioning to new version of 'Current'. Consequently it is tied to a Cisco router :-) That is really only to bridge the VDSL2 line to Ethernet - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1483 Another option depending on availability could be Jetway - http://www.jetwayipc.com/product-category/emb-board-en/embedded-x86-en/mini-itx-en/ https://www.jetwaycomputer.com/ Example (yes they do look like vendor based network equipment and not rack mount servers): https://www.jetwaycomputer.com/1U-Rackmount-Barebones.html One common place for their availability is the Mini-ITX store: https://www.mini-itx.com/store/category?type=motherboard&jetway=1&maxram=4GB-or-more&lan-ports=from-1&storage-ports=from-1&sortby=price&page=1 I don't have experience with them in general but if OpenBSD works well on them they could become a really big game changer. Regards, Kaya
Re: Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
On 2020-06-23, Daniel Ouellet wrote: > OpenBSD does run on some old Cisco routers, it's been done before. Sure > it's not officially supported nor does it support all the various > interfaces but it's known to work on some. > > I am trying to dig up a dmesg showing it too. > > Plus Cisco have some firewall type of device that are over price PC that > can run OpenBSD. > > Here is an example using the4 old Cisco IDS-4215 > > https://komlositech.wordpress.com/2018/12/30/revive-a-cisco-ids-into-a-capable-openbsd-firewall/ > > I was just curious as to what stage it might be now. That's just someone reusing janky old hardware that is being thrown out, there is no particular effort to support it on the OpenBSD side. > I am not saying it make sense to do really power wise for sure. > > May be Juniper instead as Juniper is based on FreeBSD anyway and it's an > over price PC with specialize network cards. (; Ok more then that, but > you get the picture I think. they're devices with network forwarding ASICs that happen to use a FreeBSD system as the control plane (and are moving to Linux now but I digress).. networking on the control plane is really limited and only meant for management, beyond that you need to interface with the special hardware. >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 5:03 PM Daniel Ouellet wrote: >>> >>> I also know there was effort and some Cisco router can run OpenBSD very >>> well, however I have no clue as to any of this stand now. Not really "effort" or "very well" ;) >>> I don't have a problem to use APU type or other Ubiquit for small >>> OpenBSD router, but I wonder about using Cisco instead. The only reason >>> is for may be more stability, most likely less performance for sure, but >>> less change to have corrupted reboot on power lost, etc. That is nonsense, "corrupted reboot on power lost" isn't down to the hardware, it's OS/configuration - running OpenBSD on such hardware won't help unless you make a custom system that avoids live writes to the storage devices or at least reduce the risk with sync mounts etc (see recent misc@ thread). >>> And sadly for some customers having what they see as computer as router >>> don't make them fell good, Now that is true ... >>>but seeing a Cisco box kind of wipe out the >>> impression. paint the chassis blue-green and put a sticker on it? ;) >>> I am not saying it's justify, but perception is sometime >>> everything, but if I have my say in it I want all my routers to be >>> OpenBSD as much as I can where the needs is not to multiple Gb in speed. >>> >>> So, any suggestion or updates as to what's now available and hopefully >>> in use now. Have a look through https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/embedded/servers / https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/embedded/rackmount and you'll find quite a few things that give the perception "solid custom network device" rather than either "repurposed server" or "cisco junk, well past it's sell-by date, <$100 on ebay" - things like these https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/system/1U/1019/SYS-1019D-FRN8TP.cfm https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/system/1U/5019/SYS-5019D-4C-FN8TP.cfm (some equipment from other vendors will fit the bill too, but supermicro is a lot easier to buy from than portwell etc). >>> I just have no clue if wireguard needs to be run, what can be achieve as >>> the CPU in all Cisco device is always under power, we all know that. Wireguard performance is pretty good even on relatively weak CPUs but the 20-year-old Celeron in that Cisco thing is ... well ... let's just say it's going to struggle to forward at 100Mb/s *without* encryption.
Re: Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
Actually you reminded me about the Cisco Voice appliances which are basically PC servers. If I recall correctly they ran a Linux kernel too. Unfortunately I never got to play around with the capabilities of one but you might have some luck with something like that. Of course it wouldn't be running Call Manager ;-) - hang on... my memory is slowly coming back (it's been over 10 years lol), CCM used to also be available as a VM which could be run on VMware. Maybe the dedicated appliance would be a good choice of hardware to run OpenBSD on? The ASA appliances may also be x86 based which could make them a candidate but with large price tags for new ones I'm not sure if anyone has tried doing anything crazy with them. A quick google for the Unified Communication System came up with this: https://www.google.com/search?q=cisco+call+manager+server&sxsrf=ALeKk03xeYq4NLgIyiUGtaNmoUnR3iaXnQ:1592950661912&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_7OPS-5jqAhUpTxUIHRbnCOkQ_AUoAXoECA0QAw&biw=1918&bih=955#imgrc=yRjG43cRTHU1nM You might be really lucky with one of those devices! Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in and confirm. Regards, Kaya On 2020-06-23 23:03, Daniel Ouellet wrote: OpenBSD does run on some old Cisco routers, it's been done before. Sure it's not officially supported nor does it support all the various interfaces but it's known to work on some. I am trying to dig up a dmesg showing it too. Plus Cisco have some firewall type of device that are over price PC that can run OpenBSD. Here is an example using the4 old Cisco IDS-4215 https://komlositech.wordpress.com/2018/12/30/revive-a-cisco-ids-into-a-capable-openbsd-firewall/ I was just curious as to what stage it might be now. I am not saying it make sense to do really power wise for sure. May be Juniper instead as Juniper is based on FreeBSD anyway and it's an over price PC with specialize network cards. (; Ok more then that, but you get the picture I think. I was just curious as to what it may be running on these days? Could be Cisco routers, Cisco IDS, Cisco firewall, unless I am mistaken they also have servers or used too anyway, and why not Juniper gear? In short any box that appear to be Cisco or Juniper but that have something different under the hood. And yes, this is stupid if you look only at what you get compare to other better choices. I am not doing it for best performance, but for fell comfortable. Call it marketing bullshit, because that's exactly what it is! (; Daniel On 6/23/20 12:37 PM, Kaya Saman wrote: Hi, I totally understand the position you're in and sympathize. I've never heard of Cisco routers being able to run OpenBSD though IOS is based on BSD as far as I'm aware. Not a direct solution to your use case but you could always run a small mini-itx or SBC system behind the Cisco router. You could put it as a firewall solution and have the OBSD box doing all the major routing, vlans, firewall (pf) etc... while the Cisco could just simply forward information between the private and public IP ranges. Or if using dial-in then you can bridge the OBSD and Cisco then use OBSD as the PPPoE device It is one suggestion in any case though it might not be the most ideal. Regards, Kaya On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 5:03 PM Daniel Ouellet wrote: Hi, This might be a bit weird question, but I saw the wireguard being put in the kernel in the last few days and I am very existed abut it oppose to use the package on it and even today there was more on it. Many thanks for this!!! I also know there was effort and some Cisco router can run OpenBSD very well, however I have no clue as to any of this stand now. I don't have a problem to use APU type or other Ubiquit for small OpenBSD router, but I wonder about using Cisco instead. The only reason is for may be more stability, most likely less performance for sure, but less change to have corrupted reboot on power lost, etc. And sadly for some customers having what they see as computer as router don't make them fell good, but seeing a Cisco box kind of wipe out the impression. I am not saying it's justify, but perception is sometime everything, but if I have my say in it I want all my routers to be OpenBSD as much as I can where the needs is not to multiple Gb in speed. So, any suggestion or updates as to what's now available and hopefully in use now. I really don't care for any special model, or even Juniper, as long as I can put OpenBSD on it. So any feedback as to where it's stand now and what's usable in a reliable way would be greatly appreciated. And yes I know I may well get better performance in some cases with a small APU device then a Cisco one, but that's for what we all know may not be logical to be used, but for sadly how some clients may fell, not knowing any better. I guess you can see that as some peo
Re: Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
OpenBSD does run on some old Cisco routers, it's been done before. Sure it's not officially supported nor does it support all the various interfaces but it's known to work on some. I am trying to dig up a dmesg showing it too. Plus Cisco have some firewall type of device that are over price PC that can run OpenBSD. Here is an example using the4 old Cisco IDS-4215 https://komlositech.wordpress.com/2018/12/30/revive-a-cisco-ids-into-a-capable-openbsd-firewall/ I was just curious as to what stage it might be now. I am not saying it make sense to do really power wise for sure. May be Juniper instead as Juniper is based on FreeBSD anyway and it's an over price PC with specialize network cards. (; Ok more then that, but you get the picture I think. I was just curious as to what it may be running on these days? Could be Cisco routers, Cisco IDS, Cisco firewall, unless I am mistaken they also have servers or used too anyway, and why not Juniper gear? In short any box that appear to be Cisco or Juniper but that have something different under the hood. And yes, this is stupid if you look only at what you get compare to other better choices. I am not doing it for best performance, but for fell comfortable. Call it marketing bullshit, because that's exactly what it is! (; Daniel On 6/23/20 12:37 PM, Kaya Saman wrote: > Hi, I totally understand the position you're in and sympathize. > > I've never heard of Cisco routers being able to run OpenBSD though IOS > is based on BSD as far as I'm aware. > > Not a direct solution to your use case but you could always run a > small mini-itx or SBC system behind the Cisco router. You could put it > as a firewall solution and have the OBSD box doing all the major > routing, vlans, firewall (pf) etc... while the Cisco could just simply > forward information between the private and public IP ranges. Or if > using dial-in then you can bridge the OBSD and Cisco then use OBSD as > the PPPoE device > > It is one suggestion in any case though it might not be the most ideal. > > Regards, > > Kaya > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 5:03 PM Daniel Ouellet wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> This might be a bit weird question, but I saw the wireguard being put in >> the kernel in the last few days and I am very existed abut it oppose to >> use the package on it and even today there was more on it. >> >> Many thanks for this!!! >> >> I also know there was effort and some Cisco router can run OpenBSD very >> well, however I have no clue as to any of this stand now. >> >> I don't have a problem to use APU type or other Ubiquit for small >> OpenBSD router, but I wonder about using Cisco instead. The only reason >> is for may be more stability, most likely less performance for sure, but >> less change to have corrupted reboot on power lost, etc. >> >> And sadly for some customers having what they see as computer as router >> don't make them fell good, but seeing a Cisco box kind of wipe out the >> impression. I am not saying it's justify, but perception is sometime >> everything, but if I have my say in it I want all my routers to be >> OpenBSD as much as I can where the needs is not to multiple Gb in speed. >> >> So, any suggestion or updates as to what's now available and hopefully >> in use now. >> >> I really don't care for any special model, or even Juniper, as long as I >> can put OpenBSD on it. >> >> So any feedback as to where it's stand now and what's usable in a >> reliable way would be greatly appreciated. >> >> And yes I know I may well get better performance in some cases with a >> small APU device then a Cisco one, but that's for what we all know may >> not be logical to be used, but for sadly how some clients may fell, not >> knowing any better. >> >> I guess you can see that as some people do security by obstruction, but >> we al know it's not more secure, this is routing by obstruction I guess >> and may be less performant, but achieve comfort obstruction confidence. >> >> I just have no clue if wireguard needs to be run, what can be achieve as >> the CPU in all Cisco device is always under power, we all know that. >> >> This may not go anywhere, however I liked to look even if for nothing >> else then just being fun to do if that can't even be usable. >> >> Many thanks for your time and feedback. >> >> Daniel >> >> PS; And yes, that's most likely stupid I know. Sometime what's used is >> not always what make sense for other reason that are stupid. >> >
Re: Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
Thanks I have run Edge router for a very long time, but that doesn't fit the marketing bullshit needed. (; I run my first one as far back as 2015. https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=144747982003992&w=2 And the new Ubiquiti most likely would have better performance compare to many old cisco box possibly running OpenBSD. That's sadly not the goal here. On 6/23/20 1:40 PM, Jordan Geoghegan wrote: > I don't know much about Cisco hardware, but I've had great luck with the > Edgerouter line of products. I've run my home network on an Edgerouter > Pro for several years now without issue, and have dozens of ER4 and > ER-Lite devices out in the wild. > > If you're looking for non-x86 routing solutions, then the Edgerouter is > one of the best bets. > > Regards, > > Jordan > > On 2020-06-23 09:01, Daniel Ouellet wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This might be a bit weird question, but I saw the wireguard being put in >> the kernel in the last few days and I am very existed abut it oppose to >> use the package on it and even today there was more on it. >> >> Many thanks for this!!! >> >> I also know there was effort and some Cisco router can run OpenBSD very >> well, however I have no clue as to any of this stand now. >> >> I don't have a problem to use APU type or other Ubiquit for small >> OpenBSD router, but I wonder about using Cisco instead. The only reason >> is for may be more stability, most likely less performance for sure, but >> less change to have corrupted reboot on power lost, etc. >> >> And sadly for some customers having what they see as computer as router >> don't make them fell good, but seeing a Cisco box kind of wipe out the >> impression. I am not saying it's justify, but perception is sometime >> everything, but if I have my say in it I want all my routers to be >> OpenBSD as much as I can where the needs is not to multiple Gb in speed. >> >> So, any suggestion or updates as to what's now available and hopefully >> in use now. >> >> I really don't care for any special model, or even Juniper, as long as I >> can put OpenBSD on it. >> >> So any feedback as to where it's stand now and what's usable in a >> reliable way would be greatly appreciated. >> >> And yes I know I may well get better performance in some cases with a >> small APU device then a Cisco one, but that's for what we all know may >> not be logical to be used, but for sadly how some clients may fell, not >> knowing any better. >> >> I guess you can see that as some people do security by obstruction, but >> we al know it's not more secure, this is routing by obstruction I guess >> and may be less performant, but achieve comfort obstruction confidence. >> >> I just have no clue if wireguard needs to be run, what can be achieve as >> the CPU in all Cisco device is always under power, we all know that. >> >> This may not go anywhere, however I liked to look even if for nothing >> else then just being fun to do if that can't even be usable. >> >> Many thanks for your time and feedback. >> >> Daniel >> >> PS; And yes, that's most likely stupid I know. Sometime what's used is >> not always what make sense for other reason that are stupid. >> >
Re: Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
I don't know much about Cisco hardware, but I've had great luck with the Edgerouter line of products. I've run my home network on an Edgerouter Pro for several years now without issue, and have dozens of ER4 and ER-Lite devices out in the wild. If you're looking for non-x86 routing solutions, then the Edgerouter is one of the best bets. Regards, Jordan On 2020-06-23 09:01, Daniel Ouellet wrote: Hi, This might be a bit weird question, but I saw the wireguard being put in the kernel in the last few days and I am very existed abut it oppose to use the package on it and even today there was more on it. Many thanks for this!!! I also know there was effort and some Cisco router can run OpenBSD very well, however I have no clue as to any of this stand now. I don't have a problem to use APU type or other Ubiquit for small OpenBSD router, but I wonder about using Cisco instead. The only reason is for may be more stability, most likely less performance for sure, but less change to have corrupted reboot on power lost, etc. And sadly for some customers having what they see as computer as router don't make them fell good, but seeing a Cisco box kind of wipe out the impression. I am not saying it's justify, but perception is sometime everything, but if I have my say in it I want all my routers to be OpenBSD as much as I can where the needs is not to multiple Gb in speed. So, any suggestion or updates as to what's now available and hopefully in use now. I really don't care for any special model, or even Juniper, as long as I can put OpenBSD on it. So any feedback as to where it's stand now and what's usable in a reliable way would be greatly appreciated. And yes I know I may well get better performance in some cases with a small APU device then a Cisco one, but that's for what we all know may not be logical to be used, but for sadly how some clients may fell, not knowing any better. I guess you can see that as some people do security by obstruction, but we al know it's not more secure, this is routing by obstruction I guess and may be less performant, but achieve comfort obstruction confidence. I just have no clue if wireguard needs to be run, what can be achieve as the CPU in all Cisco device is always under power, we all know that. This may not go anywhere, however I liked to look even if for nothing else then just being fun to do if that can't even be usable. Many thanks for your time and feedback. Daniel PS; And yes, that's most likely stupid I know. Sometime what's used is not always what make sense for other reason that are stupid.
Re: Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
Hi, I totally understand the position you're in and sympathize. I've never heard of Cisco routers being able to run OpenBSD though IOS is based on BSD as far as I'm aware. Not a direct solution to your use case but you could always run a small mini-itx or SBC system behind the Cisco router. You could put it as a firewall solution and have the OBSD box doing all the major routing, vlans, firewall (pf) etc... while the Cisco could just simply forward information between the private and public IP ranges. Or if using dial-in then you can bridge the OBSD and Cisco then use OBSD as the PPPoE device.... It is one suggestion in any case though it might not be the most ideal. Regards, Kaya On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 5:03 PM Daniel Ouellet wrote: > > Hi, > > This might be a bit weird question, but I saw the wireguard being put in > the kernel in the last few days and I am very existed abut it oppose to > use the package on it and even today there was more on it. > > Many thanks for this!!! > > I also know there was effort and some Cisco router can run OpenBSD very > well, however I have no clue as to any of this stand now. > > I don't have a problem to use APU type or other Ubiquit for small > OpenBSD router, but I wonder about using Cisco instead. The only reason > is for may be more stability, most likely less performance for sure, but > less change to have corrupted reboot on power lost, etc. > > And sadly for some customers having what they see as computer as router > don't make them fell good, but seeing a Cisco box kind of wipe out the > impression. I am not saying it's justify, but perception is sometime > everything, but if I have my say in it I want all my routers to be > OpenBSD as much as I can where the needs is not to multiple Gb in speed. > > So, any suggestion or updates as to what's now available and hopefully > in use now. > > I really don't care for any special model, or even Juniper, as long as I > can put OpenBSD on it. > > So any feedback as to where it's stand now and what's usable in a > reliable way would be greatly appreciated. > > And yes I know I may well get better performance in some cases with a > small APU device then a Cisco one, but that's for what we all know may > not be logical to be used, but for sadly how some clients may fell, not > knowing any better. > > I guess you can see that as some people do security by obstruction, but > we al know it's not more secure, this is routing by obstruction I guess > and may be less performant, but achieve comfort obstruction confidence. > > I just have no clue if wireguard needs to be run, what can be achieve as > the CPU in all Cisco device is always under power, we all know that. > > This may not go anywhere, however I liked to look even if for nothing > else then just being fun to do if that can't even be usable. > > Many thanks for your time and feedback. > > Daniel > > PS; And yes, that's most likely stupid I know. Sometime what's used is > not always what make sense for other reason that are stupid. >
Any idea/suggestion for old Cisco router to be use running OpenBSD current for WG?
Hi, This might be a bit weird question, but I saw the wireguard being put in the kernel in the last few days and I am very existed abut it oppose to use the package on it and even today there was more on it. Many thanks for this!!! I also know there was effort and some Cisco router can run OpenBSD very well, however I have no clue as to any of this stand now. I don't have a problem to use APU type or other Ubiquit for small OpenBSD router, but I wonder about using Cisco instead. The only reason is for may be more stability, most likely less performance for sure, but less change to have corrupted reboot on power lost, etc. And sadly for some customers having what they see as computer as router don't make them fell good, but seeing a Cisco box kind of wipe out the impression. I am not saying it's justify, but perception is sometime everything, but if I have my say in it I want all my routers to be OpenBSD as much as I can where the needs is not to multiple Gb in speed. So, any suggestion or updates as to what's now available and hopefully in use now. I really don't care for any special model, or even Juniper, as long as I can put OpenBSD on it. So any feedback as to where it's stand now and what's usable in a reliable way would be greatly appreciated. And yes I know I may well get better performance in some cases with a small APU device then a Cisco one, but that's for what we all know may not be logical to be used, but for sadly how some clients may fell, not knowing any better. I guess you can see that as some people do security by obstruction, but we al know it's not more secure, this is routing by obstruction I guess and may be less performant, but achieve comfort obstruction confidence. I just have no clue if wireguard needs to be run, what can be achieve as the CPU in all Cisco device is always under power, we all know that. This may not go anywhere, however I liked to look even if for nothing else then just being fun to do if that can't even be usable. Many thanks for your time and feedback. Daniel PS; And yes, that's most likely stupid I know. Sometime what's used is not always what make sense for other reason that are stupid.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
True, but I think it’s cleaner when you’re actually calling the function to not
have to send a hashref. Small thing, of course, but I figure you write a
function once, but call it many times. I’d rather the function call be
cleaner/simpler than the function definition for that reason.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 3, 2020, at 5:29 AM, Holger Glaess wrote:
>
> hi
>
>
> you can do by array
>
> sub m4
> {
>my ( $self,$args ) = @_;
>
> # $args contains
> # $args->{'bla'} = blub
> # $args->['do'} = whatever
> }
>
>
> as call ( example )
>
> $obj->m4 ({ bla => blub , do => whatever });
>
> holger
>
>
>
>> Am 02.01.20 um 21:40 schrieb danieljb...@icloud.com:
>> What if you want named parameters? (i.e. sending a hash as your
>> argument)
>>
>> sub m4
>> {
>> my $self = shift;
>> my %args = @_;
>>
>> # and then optionally
>> my ($arg1, $arg2, $arg3) = @args{qw/arg1 arg2 arg3/};
>>
>> # or you can just use $args{arg1}, etc...
>> }
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 09:12:42PM +0100, Marc Espie wrote:
>>> sub f
>>> {
>>>my ($arg1, $arg2) = @_;
>>>
>>>... code
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>> - three styles of parameter grab for methods:
>>>
>>>
>>> sub m1
>>> {
>>>my $self = shift;
>>> }
>>>
>>> No other parameter.
>>>
>>> sub m2
>>> {
>>>my ($self, $p1, $p2) = @_;
>>> }
>>>
>>> when getting all parameters (no check on the number usually)
>>>
>>>
>>> sub m3
>>> {
>>>my $self = shift;
>>>...
>>>do_something_with(@_);
>>> }
>>>
>>> for functions with unlimited parameters after the first one
>
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
> you can do by array Both of them are borring once you used the signatures but they are still experimental. Also: if you don't mind a new dependency: Function::Paramaters is so much convenient. regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
hi
you can do by array
sub m4
{
my ( $self,$args ) = @_;
# $args contains
# $args->{'bla'} = blub
# $args->['do'} = whatever
}
as call ( example )
$obj->m4 ({ bla => blub , do => whatever });
holger
Am 02.01.20 um 21:40 schrieb danieljb...@icloud.com:
What if you want named parameters? (i.e. sending a hash as your
argument)
sub m4
{
my $self = shift;
my %args = @_;
# and then optionally
my ($arg1, $arg2, $arg3) = @args{qw/arg1 arg2 arg3/};
# or you can just use $args{arg1}, etc...
}
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 09:12:42PM +0100, Marc Espie wrote:
sub f
{
my ($arg1, $arg2) = @_;
... code
}
- three styles of parameter grab for methods:
sub m1
{
my $self = shift;
}
No other parameter.
sub m2
{
my ($self, $p1, $p2) = @_;
}
when getting all parameters (no check on the number usually)
sub m3
{
my $self = shift;
...
do_something_with(@_);
}
for functions with unlimited parameters after the first one
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On 3/1/20 8:31 pm, Marc Chantreux wrote: >> Any modern mailreader can easily tag messages as thread, so it's trivial to >> avoid a given thread, as long as people don't fuck around with the >> In-Reply-To info. > > i have to admit this isn't an argument: if most of the people don't read > it, we should have the ability to save bandwidth by setting up a temp > list or adding a + alias. i add this in my todolist. No rush… + suffix sounds a cleaner solution than hash tags. (looking at you groups.io!) -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
> Any modern mailreader can easily tag messages as thread, so it's trivial to > avoid a given thread, as long as people don't fuck around with the > In-Reply-To info. i have to admit this isn't an argument: if most of the people don't read it, we should have the ability to save bandwidth by setting up a temp list or adding a + alias. i add this in my todolist. regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
> Yes well, my point is if you want to make a piece of code
> incomprehensible, I don't think there is a language that will stop you.
indeed. but i now realize the counterpart is not true because everyone
has something different in mind when it comes to readability.
last example was yesterday: i wrote this in raku:
my %final_pairs = @*ARGFILES.words.hash
i asked for code review for the python counterpart and we got:
import sys
def words():
for s in sys.argv[1:]:
with open(s) as fh:
for l in fh.readlines():
for w in l.split(): yield(w)
w = words()
final_pairs = { k : v for k,v in zip(w,w) }
i don't need the perl version but it would something like:
my %final_pairs =
grep length,
map { split /\S+/ }
map { chomp; $_ }
<>;
for me, readability score is: raku, perl, python but someone gives
arguments:
* there is no reason a list could be considered as a hash by order
of appearance
* there is nothing more unreadable than implicity (split on what?
what is $_?, <> iters on what?)
i strongly disagree but this is a valid opinion. i know that many
people struggle with side effects for example so $x++ is convenience for
the one of us that are used to iteration but it's hell for lot of
newcommers.
> It's a choice of the writer to write code that's hard to understand.
> Perl is a very expressive language, and can be used to write very clean
> and maintainable code.
that's it. and some of us hate expressivity because it means: learn how
the langage behave when it's preferable to describe the same patterns
again and again ...
> I think the "there's no right way" mantra helps: it allows you the
> latitude to choose the style that makes the most sense for the problem
> being solved.
yes ... but "it could be a default way because experience shown its
convenience or ability to solve the most common problem" (which is what
perl and raku do, i guess), is something that can be loved or hated.
regards
marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 11:52:03PM +0100, Marc Chantreux wrote: > > You have something like 3 lines of perl to play with ;) > > is there a todo list somewhere ? More or less in my head, with lots of subprojects progressing at any given time. - I want to retire PackageLocator and have more correct packagerepository lists... Update.pm is somewhat hackish; - the virtual file system (Vstat.pm) is too simple and somewhat broken; - there are still a few bugs in dependency handling; - pkg_info should probably be cleaned up at some point - there is some complicated work to speed up pkg addition by going through a kind of "proxy", exactly like pkg_add-over-ssh works... this part is not perl, though. - pkg_create handling of dependencies completely misses @tag currently - lib-depends-check is a complete mess and doesn't work with subdirectories - the tests in regress/usr.sbin/pkg_add are woefully inadequate. - dpb doesn't support running tests, and it's intended to take on portroach capabilities at some point. - it should have a "disconnected mode" with just ssh and no nfs. Quite possible now that we have rsync in base. - I'd like to integrate proot a bit more... the way proot is engineered to prefer hardlinks over copy was intended to make it possible to "quickly" create a separate chroot for each build (it's somewhat linked to the previous point, as both require precise accounting of packages). there are more, but those are the ones coming up at the top of my head.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Fri, Jan 03, 2020 at 09:43:21AM +1000, Stuart Longland wrote: > On 3/1/20 8:50 am, Marc Chantreux wrote: > >> Like this thread, or worse? > > * long doesn't mean endless > > * sharing points of view is never sterile (yours is inspired by other > > ones, right?) > > I would say it's been highly educational. > > Granted, this did not get off to a good start with the "let's replace > Perl with Lua" debate, but it has piqued my interest in what the Raku > team are up to. > > It's pointed out style(9) which I'm having a read of now. Having gotten > familiar with the Linux kernel coding style and the coding style used in > OpenThread, it's helpful sometimes to look at how others do it, as > sometimes you can learn something that ultimately makes your life easier. > > There's a valid point about whether this is the appropriate forum for > this. Question is, if not here, then where? Any modern mailreader can easily tag messages as thread, so it's trivial to avoid a given thread, as long as people don't fuck around with the In-Reply-To info.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On 2/1/20 9:43 pm, Marc Chantreux wrote: > arf ... i just tried to explain were this "linenoise" bullshit came from > just in the answer i gave to frank Yes well, my point is if you want to make a piece of code incomprehensible, I don't think there is a language that will stop you. I had a colleague who used to argue "that code was hard to write, it should be hard to read too!" -- completely forgetting the poor sod that had to come behind him and maintain his code. It's a choice of the writer to write code that's hard to understand. Perl is a very expressive language, and can be used to write very clean and maintainable code. I think the "there's no right way" mantra helps: it allows you the latitude to choose the style that makes the most sense for the problem being solved. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On 2020-01-02 16:52, Marc Chantreux wrote: You have something like 3 lines of perl to play with ;) is there a todo list somewhere ? find /usr/src -name '*.pm' | xargs grep XXX Shows some promising results. Edgar regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On 2/1/20 8:48 pm, Marc Espie wrote: >> I've seen some pretty ugly Python code too. > Not to beat a dead horse, but most of the python configury stuff, > including scons, is pretty shitty. Lots of really bad pseudo-OO stuf > (hey let's use that cool feature just because we can) Yeah, you won't get any disagreement from me on that front. I prefer make (usually I use the GNU dialect, but that's just borne out of what I normally have to support), and maybe CMake for more complex stuff. scons, waf, and others… seem to cause more problems than they solve. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On 3/1/20 8:50 am, Marc Chantreux wrote: >> Like this thread, or worse? > * long doesn't mean endless > * sharing points of view is never sterile (yours is inspired by other > ones, right?) I would say it's been highly educational. Granted, this did not get off to a good start with the "let's replace Perl with Lua" debate, but it has piqued my interest in what the Raku team are up to. It's pointed out style(9) which I'm having a read of now. Having gotten familiar with the Linux kernel coding style and the coding style used in OpenThread, it's helpful sometimes to look at how others do it, as sometimes you can learn something that ultimately makes your life easier. There's a valid point about whether this is the appropriate forum for this. Question is, if not here, then where? -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
> You have something like 3 lines of perl to play with ;) is there a todo list somewhere ? regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 02:16:52PM -0500, Daniel Jakots wrote: > On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 19:49:28 +0100, Marc Chantreux > > some endless sterile debates > Like this thread, or worse? * long doesn't mean endless * sharing points of view is never sterile (yours is inspired by other ones, right?) so i think this thread is neither sterile nor endless but maybe it's not the good channel: please let us know if there is a better place than misc@ for that. regards. marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 04:10:43PM -0500, Paul Wisehart wrote: > On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 09:12:42PM +0100, Marc Espie wrote: > > > > Here are my current guidelines for OpenBSD perl tools. > > > > Can you eleborate in greater detail? > Not really, just go read the code and ask questions. You have something like 3 lines of perl to play with ;)
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 09:12:42PM +0100, Marc Espie wrote: > > Here are my current guidelines for OpenBSD perl tools. > Can you eleborate in greater detail?
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 02:40:25PM -0600, danieljb...@icloud.com wrote:
> What if you want named parameters? (i.e. sending a hash as your
> argument)
>
> sub m4
> {
> my $self = shift;
> my %args = @_;
>
> # and then optionally
> my ($arg1, $arg2, $arg3) = @args{qw/arg1 arg2 arg3/};
>
> # or you can just use $args{arg1}, etc...
> }
Such cases are a refactoring waiting to happen. If your parameters
get complicated enough that you want to name them, these's usually an
object hiding in there :)
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
What if you want named parameters? (i.e. sending a hash as your
argument)
sub m4
{
my $self = shift;
my %args = @_;
# and then optionally
my ($arg1, $arg2, $arg3) = @args{qw/arg1 arg2 arg3/};
# or you can just use $args{arg1}, etc...
}
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 09:12:42PM +0100, Marc Espie wrote:
> sub f
> {
> my ($arg1, $arg2) = @_;
>
> ... code
>
> }
>
> - three styles of parameter grab for methods:
>
>
> sub m1
> {
> my $self = shift;
> }
>
> No other parameter.
>
> sub m2
> {
> my ($self, $p1, $p2) = @_;
> }
>
> when getting all parameters (no check on the number usually)
>
>
> sub m3
> {
> my $self = shift;
> ...
> do_something_with(@_);
> }
>
> for functions with unlimited parameters after the first one
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 03:24:41PM -0500, Chris Bennett wrote: > mod_perl, from reading the mailing list, looks like it will die off > before long. Lack of developers and funding and interest given all the > newer replacements. Don't even think about using mod_perl these days. Fast-cgi is the way to go. Even if you use something else but Dancer, I'd urge you to read the documentation, it has a whole fucking manpage about Dancer::Deployment
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
I don't speak Python, but from what I've read, it has some serious encoding problems compared to Perl. This is a real problem in today's world of multiple encodings. Apparently the guy writing about this is pretty hated for bringing up this serious flaw. If the problem is true, he has examples, then it needs to get fixed. Perl also has problems, but screwing up encodings is pretty fundamental. mod_perl, from reading the mailing list, looks like it will die off before long. Lack of developers and funding and interest given all the newer replacements. Remove Perl? No way. Perl is very Unixy. Perl is full of automagically. C isn't. I think they make for a good combo. Think this way -> use C Think other way-> use Perl Think really screwball -> use both OK, enough of my BS, but this is an interesting thread. I do think discussing many languages that can be used is relevant to both misc@ and ports@ Bye Y'all, Chris Bennett
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 07:49:28PM +0100, Marc Chantreux wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 10:42:54AM -0600, danieljb...@icloud.com wrote:
> > I don't understand why people say that perl's flexibility is a negative.
>
> because sometimes, flexibility permit some endless sterile debates about
> the coding style.
Well, OpenBSD has got style(9). I have some specific adaptations for perl,
because a lot of the rules are for C.
Here are my current guidelines for OpenBSD perl tools.
In general, things are written following style(9) adapted for perl.
Specifically,
- named sub *are* functions.
So
sub f
{
my ($arg1, $arg2) = @_;
... code
}
- three styles of parameter grab for methods:
sub m1
{
my $self = shift;
}
No other parameter.
sub m2
{
my ($self, $p1, $p2) = @_;
}
when getting all parameters (no check on the number usually)
sub m3
{
my $self = shift;
...
do_something_with(@_);
}
for functions with unlimited parameters after the first one
(dubious whether this changes anything for performance reasons)
- wantarray should *only* be used for optimization purposes (yes/no answer
instead of full list). Doing otherwise utterly complicates matters.
- I almost never put extra parentheses, and use the "4 space indent" rule
for continuing statements.
- chained index lookups should ditch the extra -> .
prefer $self->{a}{b} to $self->{a}->{b}
- don't put quotes around indices unless absolutely necessary (keywords)
and don't use keywords for keys.
- anonymous subs are part of the code:
So:
my $s = sub {
my $self = shift;
...
};
Note a full indent because the inside looks like code.
- modern perl prefered, so
$value //= something;
prefered over
$value = something if !defined $value;
- autovivification welcome.
push @{$self->{list}}, value;
is perfectly fine without defining $self->{list} first.
Note that if (@{$self->{list} > 0) *won't* autovivify list, so it can be
used for "does the list exist and is not empty" instead of
if (exists $self->{list}
- I should probably normalize towards banning implicit return ?
- should I prefer "always refs" over explicit % / @ ?
There is a slight legibility problem:
my @l; is more readable than
my $l; (this is a list)
and
my $l = []; takes slightly more memory.
- most things unless explicitly being debugged should set
$DB::inhibit_exit = 1 right afer a fork and before an exec.
And I have some further general rules, learnt from past mistakes.
The perl package tools follow some stylistic and practical guidelines
- all new development should be object-oriented.
Have a package under either OpenBSD or DPB, and pass operations
to a constructed object (generally name the constructor new unless
you have better options) if you need to keep state, or to the
class name proper.
Examples:
my $pkgpath = DPB::PkgPath->new('devel/quirks'):
say "Normalized version is ", $pkgpath->fullpkgpath;
$state->errsay(OpenBSD::Temp->last_error);
older code sometimes does not respect that.
It hasn't been converted because it's currently not worth it.
But there have been many instances where I've actually regretted
not doing things that way sooner.
The object itself is usually called "$self" unless there are reasons
not to.
Since there are no access control restrictions in perl, most often
internal methods are just prefixed with _.
Stylistically, methods without parameters don't need parameters, so
I don't write them, prefer $object->foo to $object->foo()
It makes it less cumbersome to chain methods, e.g., $object->foo->bar(whatever);
- in the interest of chaining methods, stuff that tweaks an object should
return the object itself, so that
$self->set_foo(1)->set_bar(2)->run
will actually work
- a lot of code creates "unique" objects.
The pattern is to have a %cache hash in the package, and have the normal
constructor do things under the radar, calling create as needed.
create won't normally be used by client code.
- a lot of code creates "just in time objects".
Error.pm containt the OpenBSD::Auto class, that can be used to create
jit values, it contains one single construct, cache, that is used like so:
OpenBSD::Auto::cache(solver,
sub {
require OpenBSD::Dependencies;
return OpenBSD::Dependencies->new(shift);
});
so that the first call to $self->solver(x)
will instantiate $self->{solver} to the required object.
And that call and all subsequent calls will return the same object.
- there are way less files than classes. Things are organized in a
"put a whole set of related things together in the same file".
Full OO also means you don't need to use Foo; from the start, you can
require Foo; dynamically, thus loading it later. This does speed up the
startup of tools significantly.
- in general, singletons are frowned upon. We still have a few (list ?),
mainly as cached values in specific packages. There
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 19:49:28 +0100, Marc Chantreux wrote: > some endless sterile debates Like this thread, or worse?
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 10:42:54AM -0600, danieljb...@icloud.com wrote: > I don't understand why people say that perl's flexibility is a negative. because sometimes, flexibility permit some endless sterile debates about the coding style. marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
> I will always lean towards idiot-proofing the code. :)) fair enough. regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
I don't understand why people say that perl's flexibility is a negative.
Bad code is a negative. You can have bad or inconsistent code even in a
language like python that has very rigid syntax.
As long as you know perl well, you should be able to read any
well-written perl code.
To me, both of those examples are equally readable, though, I'd lean
more towards a multiline approach with the second:
my %user = (
login => 'mc',
shell => 'bin/zsh',
);
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 04:22:08PM +0100, Marc Chantreux wrote:
> hello,
>
> > > my %user = qw(
> > > login mc
> > > shell /bin/zsh
> > > );
> > > print $user{login};
>
> > my %user = ( login => 'mc', shell => 'bin/zsh');
> > is way more readable in that case, I think,
> > and it does showcase what a *smart* quoting system can do.
>
> well ... i prefer the way i wrote because i love to:
>
> * remove useless symbols
> * read columns
>
> but yes: the drawback of perl is: there are so many ways to do
> it so every project needs a clear coding style.
>
> regards
> marc
>
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On January 1, 2020 2:14:03 PM GMT+02:00, Frank Beuth wrote: >On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:29:53AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: >>> But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd >>> doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then >the >>> programmer has to have the skills to safely write unsafe code. >> >>no you're belying the point: the good programmer regulates himself >>while you >>want to police everything and everyone else to compensate for your own >>shortcomings > >I don't think I suggested anywhere that I want to police anyone else. I >largely agree with what you write with respect to self-regulation. >However, I'm not sure that ranting about it on misc@ is the most >effective way to make positive progress in the desired direction. I have never imagined the day when so much spam will cover this mailing list. Don't we have 's...@openbsd.org' for that purpose ? If not, now is the time to consider creating one. Anyway, perl is not my favourite - but at least it does the job in a predictable manner. Best Regards, Strahil Nikolov
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 04:22:08PM +0100, Marc Chantreux wrote:
> hello,
>
> > > my %user = qw(
> > > login mc
> > > shell /bin/zsh
> > > );
> > > print $user{login};
>
> > my %user = ( login => 'mc', shell => 'bin/zsh');
> > is way more readable in that case, I think,
> > and it does showcase what a *smart* quoting system can do.
>
> well ... i prefer the way i wrote because i love to:
>
> * remove useless symbols
> * read columns
Well, => and , allow to figure out errors in odd/even hashes easily.
I will always lean towards idiot-proofing the code.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
hello,
> > my %user = qw(
> > login mc
> > shell /bin/zsh
> > );
> > print $user{login};
> my %user = ( login => 'mc', shell => 'bin/zsh');
> is way more readable in that case, I think,
> and it does showcase what a *smart* quoting system can do.
well ... i prefer the way i wrote because i love to:
* remove useless symbols
* read columns
but yes: the drawback of perl is: there are so many ways to do
it so every project needs a clear coding style.
regards
marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 12:40:51PM +0100, Marc Chantreux wrote:
> the quoting system
>
> # qw( for a list of barewords )
> my %user = qw(
> login mc
> shell /bin/zsh
> );
> print $user{login};
I wouldn't write it that way
my %user = ( login => 'mc', shell => 'bin/zsh');
is way more readable in that case, I think,
and it does showcase what a *smart* quoting system can do.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
> Not sure about anyone else, but comparing the Python vs Perl example you
> gave above, I would still say Python is the nicer-looking language.
i was just saying that there is no need for yield in perl. now i can
show you tons of examples to demonstrate perl code is not only
more "unixish" but easier to:
* write
* read
* modularize (__init__.py always made me smile)
when you have to manipulate text files or large datastructures, python
is far behind perl. i won't try to convince you but to illustrate what
is said before. see this code:
use v5.20;
while (<>) {
chomp;
# trim and print lines only when not empty
say s/
^ \s+# triml
| \s+ $ # trimr
//rx if /\S/;
}
this is *hell* for a unix newbie:
* regexps is a concept that windows programmers (so python ones too)
try to avoid (pretending it's hard to understand and read)
* ARGV ... what is a "filter" anyway? i don't want to read about
the unix litterature to write my code.
to be fair: if you just write a web application or a datascience script
were datasources are from binary formats or databases and libraries are
available, you just don't need those tools and run away is probably
the good strategy (python *is* indeed easier to learn when you have
simple things to code). if you believe in text streams and simple formats
in a unix land (which i do), or if you need to solve complex problems,
learn those concepts and be familiar with them is worth it.
another "line noise" bullshit comes from sigils and i have to admit
i though sigils made my script looks "not professional" when i was
younger (having a php background). But when you understand the way
sigils works, it appears that it is very informative and useful:
* they always give clues about the structures you're working with
* they permit some very useful shortcuts
as example: hash slices is something i always miss in python.
use v5.20;
my %user;
my @names = qw( uid gecos home shell );
my @cols = qw( 0 3 56 );
@user{@names} = map
{ chomp; (split /:/)[@cols] }
`getent passwd mc`;
printf '%s is the default shell for %s'
, @user{qw( uid shell )};
sure, python is evolving in the good direction (see PEPs 448, 449, 572 ...)
but so many things are missing to be confortable comparing to perl
(sometimes little ones but so convenient). some examples that comes to
my mind:
the quoting system
# qw( for a list of barewords )
my %user = qw(
login mc
shell /bin/zsh
);
print $user{login};
# q() and qq() to replace '' and "" when it's complicated
my $comment = qq{
with qq() you can choose your delimiter like in sed
so you can't get it wrong or unreadable
even if you have "" in mind
}
yada to spot an unimplemented section
(https://perldoc.perl.org/perlsyn.html#The-Ellipsis-Statement)),
the //g modifier with the \G anchor (so you can iterate in a string with regexp
matching), ...
so many other ones. and python people don't get those are
very useful features. when i asked for fair help, the
anwsers were often flooded in tons of messages like:
* you don't need this
* you shouldn't program with this
* perl is dead
So even the community is anoying and i don't want
this logo++ to be unfairly compared to perl anymore
but as i said: i don't want to reboot a 2 decades sterile
feed:
* since 3.4 python became bearable (so much saner than php or js)
and a good tool for teaching OO.
* both python and perl are langages from the last millenium with
lot of issues that are fixed in raku. so that's the spot i switched to.
cheers
marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
hello Stuart, > Heh, I've heard Perl described as executable line noise, and for sure, > it will let you write code like that. arf ... i just tried to explain were this "linenoise" bullshit came from just in the answer i gave to frank regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 07:34:22PM +1000, Stuart Longland wrote: > On 2/1/20 12:30 am, Marc Chantreux wrote: > > * the python community was unfair comparing the langages (using ugly > > perl code and nice python counterparts). instead of taking time to > > explain all the biases, perl community repetedly asserted that the > > authors of those article were incompetents and gone away. > > Heh, I've heard Perl described as executable line noise, and for sure, > it will let you write code like that. > > But so does C. There's even a contest for doing exactly that. > > I've seen some pretty ugly Python code too. Not to beat a dead horse, but most of the python configury stuff, including scons, is pretty shitty. Lots of really bad pseudo-OO stuf (hey let's use that cool feature just because we can) I hate when I have to fix python configure... it looks like a bunch of complete beginners set up to reinvent a square wheel. python is definitely my #1 most-hated language when fixing configure in ports. Yes, it beats autoconf and libtool by a large margin.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On 2/1/20 12:30 am, Marc Chantreux wrote: > * the python community was unfair comparing the langages (using ugly > perl code and nice python counterparts). instead of taking time to > explain all the biases, perl community repetedly asserted that the > authors of those article were incompetents and gone away. Heh, I've heard Perl described as executable line noise, and for sure, it will let you write code like that. But so does C. There's even a contest for doing exactly that. I've seen some pretty ugly Python code too. If you set out to write ugly code, you will get ugly code, doesn't matter what the language is. If you set out to write a thing of beauty, it can be that thing of beauty. It's more a factor of the programmer involved and their skill, rather than any fault of the language in most cases. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On 1/1/20 9:08 pm, Marc Espie wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:36:15PM +0100, Anders Andersson wrote: >> Of course its age is showing in some areas but in my experience, those >> things are actually still worked on, and have been fixed without major >> incompatibilities (python3 anyone?). > The only thing that's really missing in perl is proper thread support. > Don't know if that's going to happen. To be fair, Python and NodeJS are pretty terrible at threading too. Python has the Global Interpreter Lock. NodeJS has worker threads, but they're pretty limited in what they can do IIRC compared to the main thread. Depending on what you're doing, this can matter a lot, or very little. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 03:30:44PM +0100, Marc Chantreux wrote:
why is this ? return is the perl yield. the only difference is that the
"exhausted" situation is on your own. so basically:
def count_from(x):
while True:
yield x
x = x + 1
naturals = count_from(0)
print(next(naturals))
print(next(naturals))
print(next(naturals))
print(next(naturals))
is written in perl
use experimental 'signatures';
use feature 'say';
sub count_from ($x) { sub { $x++ } }
sub NEXT ($generator) { $generator->() }
my $naturals = count_from 0;
say NEXT $naturals;
say NEXT $naturals;
say NEXT $naturals;
say NEXT $naturals;
* perl were about unix culture, mailing lists and so on: they setup a
confortable cocoon to work together and this cocoon became an echo
chamber when the other communities started to use third party services
like stack overflow.
https://github.com/drathier/stack-overflow-import
* the python community was unfair comparing the langages (using ugly
perl code and nice python counterparts). instead of taking time to
explain all the biases, perl community repetedly asserted that the
authors of those article were incompetents and gone away.
Not sure about anyone else, but comparing the Python vs Perl example you
gave above, I would still say Python is the nicer-looking language.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
> Did you ever look at the suite of modules from John Syracusa (DB::Rose and > the like) ? fairly clean and nice. I had this under my radar but no one around be wanted to test anything else but DBIxC so i never took time to read the code or use it. regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 04:44:48PM +0100, Marc Chantreux wrote: > > I still thing DBIx::Class is overkill. The DB::Rose stuff was way simpler > > and I would have preferred for it to win. > > Well... i liked the simplicity until i had some cases like having 2 > different DBs with the same model: piece of cake with DBIxC and > impossible with ActiveRecord (AFAIR). Oh, I'm not talking ActiveRecord. Did you ever look at the suite of modules from John Syracusa (DB::Rose and the like) ? fairly clean and nice.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
hello,
> > what do you mean by this? prototypes are here for decades and signatures
> > are experimental and i guess it will be core in some releases.
> Stuff like
> $o->method { code }
ooohh right! this is a thing i also missed with perl (fixed in raku).
> > Template toolkit is still by far the best template toolkit i know.
> > i really thing the only thing where perl was not a precursor in web dev
> > is plack (which is inspired by wsgi which is inspired by rack ... i
> > don't know if there is another ancestor).
> That's the big issue. Too much choice in the ecosystem, with some of it not
> clearly enough explained... and no simple integration with js libraries for
> ajax at first.
> Yeah, I mean mason. At some point long ago, it was about the only
> game in town for perl.
yes! the eperl competitor. i remember that.
> > ActiveRecord was easier than DBIx::Class for simple situations. that's
> > one of the reasons of the popularity of RoR (also the Ruby syntax).
>
> I still thing DBIx::Class is overkill. The DB::Rose stuff was way simpler
> and I would have preferred for it to win.
Well... i liked the simplicity until i had some cases like having 2
different DBs with the same model: piece of cake with DBIxC and
impossible with ActiveRecord (AFAIR).
regards
marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 03:43:38PM +0100, Marc Chantreux wrote:
> hello,
>
> > The only thing that's really missing in perl is proper thread support.
> > Don't know if that's going to happen.
>
> seems ... complicated ...
Tell me about it. The only existing thread support was so clunky it got
thoroughly deprecated. It was really bad back in userland pthread days,
because you couldn't even build perl binaries depending on threaded libraries
(all-or-nothing -pthread flag) such as frozenbubble.
> > I have a wish-list of things that are not that likely to happen, I would
> > like to be able to use prototypes on methods, for instance.
>
> what do you mean by this? prototypes are here for decades and signatures
> are experimental and i guess it will be core in some releases.
You can't mix oo lookup and prototypes.
Stuff like
$o->method { code }
for instance.
you have to use the clunkier
$o->method(sub { code });
> > Perl also missed a turn for web development. I think Catalyst was a huge
> > mistake (hey, you've got *choices* everywhere. Let's confuse everyone),
>
> perl had CGI.pm, maypole, mod_perl, catalyst, jifty, dancer, mojolicious ...
> Template toolkit is still by far the best template toolkit i know.
> i really thing the only thing where perl was not a precursor in web dev
> is plack (which is inspired by wsgi which is inspired by rack ... i
> don't know if there is another ancestor).
That's the big issue. Too much choice in the ecosystem, with some of it not
clearly enough explained... and no simple integration with js libraries for
ajax at first.
> you mean mason ? mason is the php of perl: don't organize your code:
> write a single page with everything in it ... it was a terrible thing
> to maintain (see the code of request tracker...).
Yeah, I mean mason. At some point long ago, it was about the only
game in town for perl.
> > Dancer was a few years too late to the party.
>
> sinatra (from ruby) was the source of inspiration of Dancer which,
> AFAIK, appears years before flask and bottle.
> ActiveRecord was easier than DBIx::Class for simple situations. that's
> one of the reasons of the popularity of RoR (also the Ruby syntax).
I still thing DBIx::Class is overkill. The DB::Rose stuff was way simpler
and I would have preferred for it to win.
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
hello, > The only thing that's really missing in perl is proper thread support. > Don't know if that's going to happen. just to be sure: are you aware of the MCE module? https://metacpan.org/pod/distribution/MCE/lib/MCE.pod regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
BTW. Also tcl has coroutines since a while: https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.6/TclCmd/coroutine.htm Rodrigo.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
hello, > Actually all the cool and useful ideas that perl6 had DID trickle down > into perl5 a few years ago. even if you load a lot of modules from CPAN (which i tried to do with https://metacpan.org/pod/Sympatic), this is not even close to be true! for example, raku has * PEGs are objects * make multithreaded programming easier than i never seen before * gradually typing, subsetting types are core * has much more powerful metamodel, sub and method signatures * metaoperators * lambda syntax made right * Whatever operator * andless possibilities of new operators that can be used postfixed, infixed, prefixed and more ... * multi signatures (pattern matching for signatures) * multiple backends (currently jvm and moarvm) also: globally the langage is much more concistent and readable than every dynamic langage i saw before. > Perl6 was (I think) intended as a test bed for ideas by Larry. Everybody > got sidelined when a perl6 implementation came out of nowhere, > written by Audrey Tang, an extra-terrestrial years ahead of everyone. AFAIK, pugs (it was the name of this implementation) made it possible to write a test suite that became a reference for all the future implementations of perl6 (now raku). Now there is a complete community around the current defacto official backend (named rakudo). raku is the perl of 2020: a dynamic langage that is ahead of its time made by an inspiring, competent and dedicated community which suck at marketing. regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
hello, > The only thing that's really missing in perl is proper thread support. > Don't know if that's going to happen. seems ... complicated ... > I have a wish-list of things that are not that likely to happen, I would > like to be able to use prototypes on methods, for instance. what do you mean by this? prototypes are here for decades and signatures are experimental and i guess it will be core in some releases. also, thanks to pluggable keywords, some very powerful modules exists like https://metacpan.org/pod/Function::Parameters > Perl also missed a turn for web development. I think Catalyst was a huge > mistake (hey, you've got *choices* everywhere. Let's confuse everyone), perl had CGI.pm, maypole, mod_perl, catalyst, jifty, dancer, mojolicious ... Template toolkit is still by far the best template toolkit i know. i really thing the only thing where perl was not a precursor in web dev is plack (which is inspired by wsgi which is inspired by rack ... i don't know if there is another ancestor). > so a lot of people didn't transition from Meson to another perl module, but > instead switched to ruby-on-rails or something like that. you mean mason ? mason is the php of perl: don't organize your code: write a single page with everything in it ... it was a terrible thing to maintain (see the code of request tracker...). > Dancer was a few years too late to the party. sinatra (from ruby) was the source of inspiration of Dancer which, AFAIK, appears years before flask and bottle. ActiveRecord was easier than DBIx::Class for simple situations. that's one of the reasons of the popularity of RoR (also the Ruby syntax). regards marc
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
hello,
as intro: i would like to make clear that i'm not promoting perl (my go
to langage for scripting is now raku by far) but as i was a member of the perl
community more than 20 years, i have some opinions about it.
> felt like a random hack, especially compared to ruby. The only thing I
> really miss from python is "yield".
why is this ? return is the perl yield. the only difference is that the
"exhausted" situation is on your own. so basically:
def count_from(x):
while True:
yield x
x = x + 1
naturals = count_from(0)
print(next(naturals))
print(next(naturals))
print(next(naturals))
print(next(naturals))
is written in perl
use experimental 'signatures';
use feature 'say';
sub count_from ($x) { sub { $x++ } }
sub NEXT ($generator) { $generator->() }
my $naturals = count_from 0;
say NEXT $naturals;
say NEXT $naturals;
say NEXT $naturals;
say NEXT $naturals;
there are complete modules on CPAN based on this. Perlude provide
keywords stolen from haskell to make things more like shell scripting
so the equivalent of
grep root "$@" | sed 100q
is
use Perlude;
now {print}
take 100,
filter { /root/ }
sub{ // () };
Perlude is available on CPAN:
https://metacpan.org/pod/distribution/perlude/lib/Perlude.pod
> and ruby in parallel and ruby was definitely the winner there. I have
> absolutely no idea why python even gained the popularity it has, it
my opinion: python gained popularity during the dark ages of internet
when most of the people (including developpers and IT people) were using
windows and teach themselves how to use a computer or worse: learned
from java schools.
so python won because:
* they took care about windows users
* the langage is designed to provide simple solutions for simple cases
which please most of the users (they don't need to maintain large
codebases)
* the default behaviors of the langage were the same than the langages
learned in the java schools (POO, ...). the most obvious example is
the "flatten values by default":
* it became the center of the stupidest talk ever
https://media.ccc.de/v/31c3_-_6243_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201412292200_-_the_perl_jam_exploiting_a_20_year-old_vulnerability_-_netanel_rubin
* thanks to javascript, (with the rest operator and the
destructuring syntax) they now all get the point and even python
dpeople now have access to those features and like this.
https://youtu.be/ggbi4SelOAo?t=955
so perl didn't fit the needs of the internet bubble
* perl were about unix culture, mailing lists and so on: they setup a
confortable cocoon to work together and this cocoon became an echo
chamber when the other communities started to use third party services
like stack overflow.
* something i call "the 'hello world' pride": when perl programmers were
just putting new modules on CPAN to get the job done, python ones were
creating tools and projet sites and so on with a logo "powered by
python". this has an impact on the myth of "perl is dying"
* the python community was unfair comparing the langages (using ugly
perl code and nice python counterparts). instead of taking time to
explain all the biases, perl community repetedly asserted that the
authors of those article were incompetents and gone away.
* same situation regarding the constant FUD from the other dynamic
langages
perl people didn't realised how unixish perl is:
* it's sad to realize that even linux users of nowaday are not
confortable with the basics of awk, sed and so on ... and perl
is born by improving the concepts of those langages and putting
them together in one tool. it means that learning perl is easy for
unix users: not for the rest of us. combined to the "DWIM" moto, perl
has some unexpected behavior because it implies you should *know* what
you should mean (which implies a unix culture). the most obvious
exemple for me is the fact that <> iterates by default on ARGV, not on
STDIN: ARGV is what you need to know when you want to write a filter
but it's way too magic when you don't know the unix philosophy.
* when perl gained popularity (the realm of CGIs), lot of aweful scripts
were written by newbies both in perl and unix. the result was terrible
and gave perl a very bad reputation.
regards
marc
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:29:53AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then the programmer has to have the skills to safely write unsafe code. no you're belying the point: the good programmer regulates himself while you want to police everything and everyone else to compensate for your own shortcomings I don't think I suggested anywhere that I want to police anyone else. I largely agree with what you write with respect to self-regulation. However, I'm not sure that ranting about it on misc@ is the most effective way to make positive progress in the desired direction.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:56:46PM -0700, Bob Beck wrote: > read fucking code. change fucking things. send some fucking diffs. get > fucking yelled at. learn from your fucking mistakes. show some fucking > passion. filter fucking misc@ and all this useless bleating into the > toilet. > > none of us have time to spoon feed you in some “boot camp” ^fucking > > there are two types of programmers. the self taught, and the hopeless. it ^fucking > is your job to turn yourself from the hopeless to the self taught. ^fucking > > shut up and fucking hack. > There, you missed a few.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 09:06:38PM +0100, Christer Solskogen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie wrote: > > > We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic > > libraries. > > > > > OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries? Very different architecture, no register to do pic code efficiently and 512 bytes pages. NetBSD moved to shared libraries on vax at a huge performance cost (something like 30%), if I recall what Miod was saying at the time.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:06:47AM +0100, Anders Andersson wrote: > On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:51 AM Stuart Longland > wrote: > > > Perl 6 will be a major change though, more disruptive than the Python2→3 > > mess was. So we may be in for some "fun" in the near future. > > Gotta stop this before it derails: perl 6 is not the next version of > perl 5. It's not compatible, it's not an upgrade, it's a completely > new language and does no longer even share the same name (renamed to > raku). There is no "perl 6" that will replace perl 5. Actually all the cool and useful ideas that perl6 had DID trickle down into perl5 a few years ago. Perl6 was (I think) intended as a test bed for ideas by Larry. Everybody got sidelined when a perl6 implementation came out of nowhere, written by Audrey Tang, an extra-terrestrial years ahead of everyone.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:01:50PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600 > Eric Zylstra wrote: > > > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may > > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the > > thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out > > that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve > > obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well. Apologies if > > that wasn’t within bounds. > > What if the OP had instead of the suggestion submitted two or three Lua > scripts to replace two or three Perl scripts? Would you still have the > same opinion? Good luck with that. Tools in base written in perl: - libtool - pkg-config - pkg_add The libtool part is insane. pkg-config is doable. You won't be able to rewrite pkg_add without rewriting the whole ecosystem, because it's heavily based on a few choice modules (see OpenBSD::Intro(3) ) and you more or less have to rewrite all of it together, meaning: -> pkg_add, create, delete -> fw_update -> dpb -> update-plist -> check-lib-depends -> pkg_check-* -> pkg_outdated -> pkg_subst -> port-resolve-lib-helper -> proot -> register-plist There are a few other scripts which are independent of that framework, but still that's some complicated job. Instead of rewriting it, I would be way more interested in somebody looking carefully at (say) libtool and fixing the missing parts...
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:36:15PM +0100, Anders Andersson wrote: > Of course its age is showing in some areas but in my experience, those > things are actually still worked on, and have been fixed without major > incompatibilities (python3 anyone?). The only thing that's really missing in perl is proper thread support. Don't know if that's going to happen. Its garbage collector is also slightly peculiar... I remember looking really hard for a leak because a file handle in an anonymous sub wouldn't be properly collected (the one from pkg_add's progressmeter, actually) I have a wish-list of things that are not that likely to happen, I would like to be able to use prototypes on methods, for instance. > I remember a few years ago when I was briefly researching a > replacement for perl for my personal projects and I tried out python3 > and ruby in parallel and ruby was definitely the winner there. I have > absolutely no idea why python even gained the popularity it has, it > felt like a random hack, especially compared to ruby. The only thing I > really miss from python is "yield". Yeah, native coroutine support without a hack would be a blast. Even C++ is getting that for its next main revision. The popularity of python is partly explained by them catering more to teaching needs. As far as I know, there is no equivalent of the python notebooks. Stuff like jupyter means you don't even have to install complicated arcane stuff to learn python. Cool for the young pups. Perl also missed a turn for web development. I think Catalyst was a huge mistake (hey, you've got *choices* everywhere. Let's confuse everyone), so a lot of people didn't transition from Meson to another perl module, but instead switched to ruby-on-rails or something like that. Dancer was a few years too late to the party.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
> where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training bootcamp? here we go ladies and gents an unadulterated look at the manchild in the wild as he looks for something else to take responsibility for his work. after decades of being spoonfed it's lost the ability to fend for itself as previous generations once did. where autodidacts once had the initiative to read, study and learn how to use tools inherently more dangerous than the relatively tame c, children nowadays only know how to blame the job for being too hard. the tool for being unsafe. or the teacher for being too strict. where men once fixed steel without harness or lanyard, hardhat or steelcaps they now want everything handed to them on a silver platter > But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd > doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then the > programmer has to have the skills to safely write unsafe code. no you're belying the point: the good programmer regulates himself while you want to police everything and everyone else to compensate for your own shortcomings At moment, I want my privacy to be protected. https://mytemp.email/
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:56:46PM -0700, Bob Beck wrote: read fucking code. change fucking things. send some fucking diffs. get fucking yelled at. learn from your fucking mistakes. show some fucking passion. filter fucking misc@ and all this useless bleating into the toilet. none of us have time to spoon feed you in some “boot camp” there are two types of programmers. the self taught, and the hopeless. it is your job to turn yourself from the hopeless to the self taught. shut up and fucking hack. Well put. But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then the programmer has to have the skills to safely write unsafe code. On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 23:50 Frank Beuth wrote: On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 04:00:37AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: >rather than the programmer being responsible for >writing unsafe >code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to >regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training bootcamp?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:51 AM Stuart Longland wrote: > Perl 6 will be a major change though, more disruptive than the Python2→3 > mess was. So we may be in for some "fun" in the near future. Gotta stop this before it derails: perl 6 is not the next version of perl 5. It's not compatible, it's not an upgrade, it's a completely new language and does no longer even share the same name (renamed to raku). There is no "perl 6" that will replace perl 5.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
read fucking code. change fucking things. send some fucking diffs. get fucking yelled at. learn from your fucking mistakes. show some fucking passion. filter fucking misc@ and all this useless bleating into the toilet. none of us have time to spoon feed you in some “boot camp” there are two types of programmers. the self taught, and the hopeless. it is your job to turn yourself from the hopeless to the self taught. shut up and fucking hack. On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 23:50 Frank Beuth wrote: > On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 04:00:37AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: > >rather than the programmer being responsible for > >writing unsafe > >code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to > >regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. > > where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training > bootcamp? > >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 04:00:37AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: rather than the programmer being responsible for writing unsafe code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training bootcamp?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
> I like where this thread is headed. > > To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why > not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > > Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? underrated response eww rust *cringe* i suspect 2020 will see a sharp increase in the woke brigade's attempts to place OpenBSD firmly underfoot of the diversity agenda. OpenBSD is one of the last extremely rare bastions of freedom that hasn't been coerced into marching in lockstep with the crowd of progressive madness. and don't think that it doesn't grind on the gears of those power hungry authoritarian narcissist pushers of the diversity drug who know better than you, who are better than you and who do better than you with every virtue signaling code of conduct and safe (space) language. you didn't think it was coincidence that c is demonized for not being "safe" did you? rather than the programmer being responsible for writing unsafe code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. accountability is oppression. it's not his fault he didn't do any error handling it's c's fault! At moment, I want my privacy to be protected. https://mytemp.email/
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 1/1/20 6:06 am, Christer Solskogen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie wrote: > >> We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic >> libraries. >> >> > OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries? > Did vax have an MMU? That'd make dynamic libraries tricky I'd imagine. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 1/1/20 3:13 am, danieljb...@icloud.com wrote: > I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in > use in OpenBSD base. /bin/sh? *ducks* -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 31/12/19 10:57 pm, Daniel Boyd wrote: > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be their > favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall at this > point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, all the > perl-based system tools notwithstanding. I coded a lot in Perl before moving onto PHP and other languages… the only time I've done lots with Java was when I was at university. Perl was definitely my first taste of coding for a Unix-like operating system, having previously been solely exposed to variants of BASIC prior (QBASIC, CA Realizer BASIC, VisualBASIC). (Sorry Dijkstra, some of us *do* move beyond that language.) C++ and Haskell were other languages I learned at university. C did feature in my lectures, but I don't consider two slides describing the syntax of "if", "for", and various variable data types as being "instruction". Had I not learned C++ or dabbled with C prior to uni, I'd be stuffed in the subjects that needed C knowledge. Python I had dabbled with, but only started using recently because of my current workplace. They needed a metering product, and the choices of language offered to me were Python and PHP; being a cron-based service doing lots of serial port I/O, I chose Python. These days I do lots in that language. I'd have chosen Perl5 at the time if it were on the table, there is nothing wrong with it, it is stable and mature. Just that it is no longer "trendy". That said, choosing a language because of its popularity is totally the wrong approach. It's a question of whether it is suitable for the job. Notably, are there libraries of sufficient quality that you can utilise to get the job you're after done quickly. Python has pypi. Perl has had CPAN for ages. Perl 6 will be a major change though, more disruptive than the Python2→3 mess was. So we may be in for some "fun" in the near future. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600 > Eric Zylstra wrote: > > > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may > > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the > > thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out > > that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve > > obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well. Apologies if > > that wasn’t within bounds. > > What if the OP had instead of the suggestion submitted two or three Lua > scripts to replace two or three Perl scripts? Would you still have the > same opinion? We would definately have been impressed by his replacement of the existing pkg tools, which as written today are around 23,000 lines of perl. But should we really bother debating "what if"?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600 Eric Zylstra wrote: > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the > thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out > that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve > obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well. Apologies if > that wasn’t within bounds. What if the OP had instead of the suggestion submitted two or three Lua scripts to replace two or three Perl scripts? Would you still have the same opinion? SteveT Steve Litt December 2019 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
We could always rewrite the entire operating system in Pascal. FreePascal and
GNU Pascal are both GPL, so we’ll need to write a new compiler as well.
Shouldn’t take too long. Who wants to go register openpascal.org?
I’ll get a diff started
program OpenBSD;
begin
{ some code here }
end.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 31, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>
> I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful
> to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept
> the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove
> the cast after the fact.
>
> Eric Zylstra wrote:
>
>> Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may have been
>> a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread. And my point
>> wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals
>> unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be
>> received very well. Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds.
>>
>> E
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>>>
>>> Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to
>>> write such a large diff?
>>>
Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua
and then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way,
right? If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In
any case, it would kill this thread.
EZ
Sent from my iPhone
>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote:
>
> I like where this thread is headed.
>
> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and
> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices.
> Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why
> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too?
>
> Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can
> write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the
> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem
> that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind
> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
>
>>
>
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
I am still waiting to this diff myself. On Tuesday, December 31, 2019, Theo de Raadt wrote: > I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful > to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept > the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove > the cast after the fact. > > Eric Zylstra wrote: > > > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may have > been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread. And my > point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals > unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to > be received very well. Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds. > > > > E > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt > wrote: > > > > > > Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to > > > write such a large diff? > > > > > >> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with > Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD > way, right? If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. > In any case, it would kill this thread. > > >> > > >> EZ > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent from my iPhone > > >> > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I like where this thread is headed. > > >>> > > >>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > > >>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > > >>> Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. > Why > > >>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > > >>> > > >>> Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > > >>> write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > > >>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > > >>> that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > > >>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? > > >>> > > >> > > > >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove the cast after the fact. Eric Zylstra wrote: > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may have been > a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread. And my point > wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals > unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be > received very well. Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds. > > E > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > > > Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to > > write such a large diff? > > > >> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua > >> and then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, > >> right? If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In > >> any case, it would kill this thread. > >> > >> EZ > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: > >>> > >>> I like where this thread is headed. > >>> > >>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > >>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > >>> Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why > >>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > >>> > >>> Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > >>> write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > >>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > >>> that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > >>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? > >>> > >> >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be received very well. Apologies if that wasn’t within bounds. E Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 31, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to > write such a large diff? > >> Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and >> then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, right? >> If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In any case, it >> would kill this thread. >> >> EZ >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: >>> >>> I like where this thread is headed. >>> >>> To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and >>> inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. >>> Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why >>> not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? >>> >>> Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can >>> write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the >>> parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem >>> that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind >>> having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? >>> >>
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to write such a large diff? > Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and > then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, right? > If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In any case, it > would kill this thread. > > EZ > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: > > > > I like where this thread is headed. > > > > To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > > inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > > Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why > > not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > > > > Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > > write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > > parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > > that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > > having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? > > >
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, right? If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In any case, it would kill this thread. EZ Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 31, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Daniel Corbe wrote: > > I like where this thread is headed. > > To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why > not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? > > Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can > write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the > parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem > that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind > having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right? >
Re: perl popularity inside openbsd community? (Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl ...)
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 4:30 PM Marc Chantreux wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 06:57:02AM -0600, Daniel Boyd wrote: > > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be > > their favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry > > Wall at this point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on > > its merits, all the perl-based system tools notwithstanding. > > one of the few remaining people ? is it so ? i really wonder ... > > Perl bashing is around the IT crowd for 20 decades and yet, when i > compare with other dynamic langages: > > * perl is the only one who gives me the conciseness and spirit of unix > tools combined to the power of a dynamic langage (the only close one > is ruby, the next level is raku, the others look like jokes to me). > so as openbsd people seems to be confortable with this unix culture, > i'm inclined to think that perl is popular here. > * CPAN is the best ecosystem to share code (metacpan is just awesome > compared to the other package sites, tooling is very good as well) > * the popularity of perl around me don't reflect the "perl is dead" moto > we heard since so many years (yes: there is a decline but it's in > flavor of compiled langages. the only one who switched to python > made this choice for money reason) > > both perl and openbsd popularities are underestimated just because > they still prefer mailing lists over stackoverflow (or other web > services who try to buzz with some charts) and don't care that much > about marketing. but still: i will be curious to know the perl > popularity in the openbsd community. Don't know if anyone cares because I'm not an OpenBSD dev (maybe some day I'll find something useful to hack on), but perl is definitely my go-to language. I agree with the "conciseness and spirit of unix tools", it is something that I have thought about but have never been able to formulate. Of course its age is showing in some areas but in my experience, those things are actually still worked on, and have been fixed without major incompatibilities (python3 anyone?). I remember a few years ago when I was briefly researching a replacement for perl for my personal projects and I tried out python3 and ruby in parallel and ruby was definitely the winner there. I have absolutely no idea why python even gained the popularity it has, it felt like a random hack, especially compared to ruby. The only thing I really miss from python is "yield".
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie wrote: > We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic > libraries. > > OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On 12-31 14:02, Raul Miller wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 1:32 PM wrote: > > I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in > > use in OpenBSD base. > It's pretty easy to download the sources for base, and then: > tar zxf src.tar.gz > find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort > -n | tail -40 For what it may be worth: another way I use to see "what is available" (sometimes just to learn) is either: "man [1-9] intro" or go to http://man.openbsd.org, optionally choose a section, put "." (without quotes) in the search field, and click the "apropos" button. -- Please pray for our country(ies) and leaders, at this important time. More on this and other topics (a simple, non-JS site w/ no sales): http://lukecall.net (updated 2019-12-8)
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
I like where this thread is headed. To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? Hear me out. We can set up a raffle system so that each winner can write their winning tool in their language of choice. All the parallel development will even solve the "multi year effort" problem that was brought up by the original poster too. Nobody will mind having another 8 or 9 languages in the base system, right?
Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 02:02:47PM -0500, Raul Miller wrote: > tar zxf src.tar.gz > find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort > -n | tail -40 That was fun, I learned about the -n option :) Thanks! wise@hup:/usr/src$ find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n | tail -40 | sort -nr 17030 c 14060 h 5208 cpp 4043 C 2978 t 1567 out 1516 in 1424 txt 1414 pl 1394 py 1213 3 1011 sh 968 pm 955 4 904 html 751 S 597 cc 545 out++ 542 png 534 rst 523 out_ascii 504 ok 474 exp 412 1 391 td 334 8 320 map 319 inc 315 gn 311 md5 283 texi 278 hpp 277 md 265 pod 242 out_lint 229 out_markdown 211 m4 207 m 191 def 179 f
