Re: a live cd/dvd?
On Sat, 12 May 2012 11:16:34 -0700 Tyler Morgan wrote: Anyway, I hope that perspective is useful in some way. I have no strong opinion on the usefulness of an OpenBSD live CD, and this isn't a Linux mailing list blah blah blah WHilst you have valid points, I think your being a bit too dismissive of Tylers mail Nick. Yes your right CDs are slow and rigid and Sds can even have read-only switches too and most likely better suited to most tasks. But there are pros/cons to both. Bootability can't be denied for cds, OpenBSD cds are given over dvds for bootability maximisation. I had to update a quite modern bios the other week to get an OpenBSD usb drive to boot. Some systems simply can't. Whilst less of a problem for BSD. CDs like floppies can also physically prevent cross contamination or tampering or persistent exploitations. If you look after a cd, it's also more reliable, if you don't it's far less reliable. p.s. there is a livecd creation pdf on the net somewhere. Not sure if it's still relevent but I'll dig it out of my system if someone needs it.
Re: a live cd/dvd?
2012/5/14 Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk: On Sat, 12 May 2012 11:16:34 -0700 Tyler Morgan wrote: Anyway, I hope that perspective is useful in some way. I have no strong opinion on the usefulness of an OpenBSD live CD, and this isn't a Linux mailing list blah blah blah WHilst you have valid points, I think your being a bit too dismissive of Tylers mail Nick. Yes your right CDs are slow and rigid and Sds can even have read-only switches too and most likely better suited to most tasks. But there are pros/cons to both. Bootability can't be denied for cds, OpenBSD cds are given over dvds for bootability maximisation. I had to update a quite modern bios the other week to get an OpenBSD usb drive to boot. Some systems simply can't. You can netboot also, don't forget that. -- To our sweethearts and wives. May they never meet. -- 19th century toast
Re: a live cd/dvd?
On Sun, 13 May 2012 18:17:10 -0700 Eric Oyen wrote: there are 2 ways: using ORCA in the Gnome desktop environment (or XFCE) or a console based screenreader I try to use alt text and reasonable ordering but for me to test my websites with. Do you use particular browsers with Orca or screen reader. At the moment, I just look at it in a text browser? Alt text is something that is sometimes suggested to be used on everything to keep Google happy or help site ranking. I'm thinking over-usage could be annoying where it's not actually required such as putting keywords in place of something purely visual. Thanks, Kc
Re: a live cd/dvd?
well, text only sites are fine, but hardly anyone codes that way anymore. a lot of modern websites use leveled headers, tables (mostly unlabeled), frames and content pop-overs. the last can be frustrating as the screen reader will not see those without being refreshed (in the case of voiceover, using VO-i to see all objects). dynamic content is, by far, the hardest to contend with. it causes the page to refresh frequently and will reset screen readers back to the top of the page. my suggestions for websites: 1. alt-tagged descriptions of all pictures and videos 2. labeled frames and tables 3. framed organization where stable links are in one frame and the contents that are called from those links get displayed in another frame (look at some of the linksys routers for web page examples of this) 4. accessible controls (pop-up buttons and the like) 5. advertisements (such as flash with associated links) in separate frames (can have multiple in a single frame) 6 the about content (about us, contact, copyright, Terms of Use, etc) located in a bottom frame 7. use audio captchas as well as visual ones (have a button to select which one). this way, you don't lock out print impaired individuals. those are some of the big suggestions. frames don't have to be used, but they do make organizing the web site a damned sight easier. -eric On May 14, 2012, at 6:28 AM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: On Sun, 13 May 2012 18:17:10 -0700 Eric Oyen wrote: there are 2 ways: using ORCA in the Gnome desktop environment (or XFCE) or a console based screenreader I try to use alt text and reasonable ordering but for me to test my websites with. Do you use particular browsers with Orca or screen reader. At the moment, I just look at it in a text browser? Alt text is something that is sometimes suggested to be used on everything to keep Google happy or help site ranking. I'm thinking over-usage could be annoying where it's not actually required such as putting keywords in place of something purely visual. Thanks, Kc
Re: a live cd/dvd?
Booting single user on Linux would be a better solution than a livecd too. On May 13, 2012 4:37 AM, Nick Holland n...@holland-consulting.net wrote: On 05/12/12 14:16, Tyler Morgan wrote: On 5/11/2012 8:48 PM, Nick Holland wrote: I suspect the interest in [an OpenBSD Live CD] is rapidly approaching zero. Its a concept who's time has come...and gone, I think. Five or six years ago, yeah...cool. Today...why?. A live CD gives you a very rigid, predefined read-only environment. I think a much more useful tool these days is a USB flash drive -- they are smaller than a CD, more rugged, and probably run on more modern systems than CDs do (I say that with some uncertainty -- some modern computers come with no DVD, virtually all come with USB ports, but some have broken BIOSs). While I generally agree a USB-based installation of whatever OS you prefer is a great solution to many tasks, I don't feel this description of a modern live CD environment is completely accurate. Before I went home on Friday, one of our not-production, local office machines needed some more room in its root filesystem so I booted into an Ubuntu live CD (11.04, I believe), manually brought up eth0, created and setup resolv.conf, apt-get installed lvm2 via network, and used the necessary tools to extend an LVM-based ext3 filesystem. Why did I do it that way? Because I had done it that way before without any problems, the CD was on the bench, the drive was available, it took about 20 minutes start to finish, and it effectively accomplished the task. With OpenBSD, you do that kinda stuff by either bringing up the system in single user mode or with bsd.rd, booted from either the standard file system or standard boot cd. You don't need/want a live cd. And it won't take you 20 minutes, unless you need to fsck a really big file system, which is something you generally shouldn't need to do from single user mode or bsd.rd. Of course, you could do it with a USB flash drive, too, but that's all the hard way. As is using a Live CD under Unix, problem is, they don't provide you an easy way...so everyone is stuck singing the praises of an overly complex solution that hauled your butt out of the fire... hm...Stockholm Syndrome in the IT departments -- singing the praises of clumsy tools that shouldn't need to exist to get you out of situations you shouldn't have had to been in in the first place! At no point did I have to jump through any hoops like remounting something read/write. It was simply a usable Linux environment. I'm sure it had limitations that I do not know about and did not run into, but, respectfully (and rhetorically), what about that is pre-defined and rigid? It's a CD_ROM_. Read Only Memory. That is, pretty much by definition, pre-defined and rigid. ok, the person who put your Ubuntu live CD together gave you the tools you needed, and you downloaded some more to something other than the CD (either local file system or memory file system). But compared to a USB flash disk...you can load the tools on the flash, leaving your local file systems untouched, and without the memory cost of a memory file system. And yes, you can cram a lot of useful tools in a 700k CD, but not ALL useful tools. You can cram a lot more into a DVD, but not all computers have DVD drives on them (ok, that's a weak argument, as most machines that don't have DVD drives won't boot from a USB stick either). And, you still have a very finite space... However, 8GB flash drives are getting pretty cheap, you can put whatever _you_ want on one. No matter how you look at it, a boot flash drive will be more flexible, as you can make it as you want it, and adjust it afterwards. To digress a little further, one day I was talking to our small-ish, local hardware vendor and he said he should charge to remove DVD drives from rack-mounted servers because he gets them back to have the drives put back in so often, and I wasn't sure if he was kidding or not. USB is great but, like you say, some BIOSes are broken and the death of the CD/DVD isn't upon us quite yet. I mean, look at OpenBSD's seemingly adamant support for floppy-based systems. I'm not sure how that connects to the topic at hand. We aren't talking about removing CD/DVD drives from servers or dropping support of OpenBSD CD (or floppy) install processes...we are talking about creating special Live CDs (which are not currently generated or supported by the project, and I have heard ZERO interest in creating such a thing as part of the project) vs. full, normal installs of OpenBSD on flash disks (which are completely normal, and thus fully supported). btw: as USB ports are not as impacted by dust and age as CDs and DVDs are, in five or so years, today's server might be more likely to boot from a USB flash drive than the dust-encaked DVD drive. A better argument would be that sparc or alpha, or all
Re: a live cd/dvd?
[lots of text snipped] I was looking at laptops recently. I took 2 linux CDs, an OpenBSD install CD, and a USB stick with OpenBSD on it. I got a lot more useful information about hardware compatibility from the OpenBSDs than the Linux CDs because OpenBSD didn't try to bring up anything graphical at the beginning. The tools on the OpenBSD install disk were (just barely) sufficient to do what I needed. I didn't use the stick because the USB ports on the store systems weren't easily accessible. I've also rescued unbootable systems with the OpenBSD install disk. Live CDs take forever to boot and run because seeking on a CD is very slow. The install CD came up a great deal faster because it didn't try to set up a fancy environment. If one really wanted to make an OpenBSD live DVD, one might (this has *not* been tested): Install onto a clean disk with everything on one partition. Add 2 entries to / (/mem_var, /mem_etc) Add 3 entries to /dev for memory file systems. Edit /etc/fstab to point /tmp, /var, and /etc to those. Add some code to the beginning of /etc/rc to: create the 3 memory file systems mount /mem_etc and /mem_var copy /etc to one and /var to another unmount the copies Create a DVD with a boot sector from the above. Presumably one could write a script to do this procedure and apply it to any release. I don't intend to write such a script. Someone who wanted to do this would need to know the purpose of /etc/rc and shell programming. That person would not need to know any kernel internals. All the necessary tools have sufficient manual pages. I'm quite sure I missed something. init should continue to read the buried /etc/rc... or at least about 40 releases ago that's what would happen. This begs the questions of networking, setting up X, etc. This doesn't rate a FAQ entry. It does show you can do this with the tools supplied and it's not rocket science.
Re: a live cd/dvd?
ok, thats a bunch of information. However, for me, its the same as rocket science as I am totally blind and would require sighted assistance just to get it to either install a network card, or port to USB/Serial. Unlike the rest of you, using a computer with little or no accessibility on boot-up is immeasurably harder. even porting to a braille display device is not straight forward. all I want is a way to make/execute a script to do the installation unattended or port to an interface that can be read with another machine with speech/braille already running. then again, it appears that it may be easier to get a $200 interface device that acts as the screen to the machine and outputs to either a network interface or a serial port. unfortunately, most blind folks cannot afford this, so having a stand-alone installer with speech or braille would be very helpful. -eric On May 13, 2012, at 8:14 AM, Geoff Steckel wrote: [lots of text snipped] I was looking at laptops recently. I took 2 linux CDs, an OpenBSD install CD, and a USB stick with OpenBSD on it. I got a lot more useful information about hardware compatibility from the OpenBSDs than the Linux CDs because OpenBSD didn't try to bring up anything graphical at the beginning. The tools on the OpenBSD install disk were (just barely) sufficient to do what I needed. I didn't use the stick because the USB ports on the store systems weren't easily accessible. I've also rescued unbootable systems with the OpenBSD install disk. Live CDs take forever to boot and run because seeking on a CD is very slow. The install CD came up a great deal faster because it didn't try to set up a fancy environment. If one really wanted to make an OpenBSD live DVD, one might (this has *not* been tested): Install onto a clean disk with everything on one partition. Add 2 entries to / (/mem_var, /mem_etc) Add 3 entries to /dev for memory file systems. Edit /etc/fstab to point /tmp, /var, and /etc to those. Add some code to the beginning of /etc/rc to: create the 3 memory file systems mount /mem_etc and /mem_var copy /etc to one and /var to another unmount the copies Create a DVD with a boot sector from the above. Presumably one could write a script to do this procedure and apply it to any release. I don't intend to write such a script. Someone who wanted to do this would need to know the purpose of /etc/rc and shell programming. That person would not need to know any kernel internals. All the necessary tools have sufficient manual pages. I'm quite sure I missed something. init should continue to read the buried /etc/rc... or at least about 40 releases ago that's what would happen. This begs the questions of networking, setting up X, etc. This doesn't rate a FAQ entry. It does show you can do this with the tools supplied and it's not rocket science.
Re: a live cd/dvd?
Eric Oyen wrote: all I want is a way to make/execute a script to do the installation unattended. I think this can be done pretty easy once you figured out what options you do need for your specific installation by removing the code that ask for options - or forcing the defaults by tricking the install script that you have pressed the Enter key, if the defaults are ok for you. It's very clear that impaired people need some modification in the hardware/software, but this implies another effort from the developers. The resources are scarce anyway and you need support in daily system usage too, which is of a greater importance, I think.
Re: a live cd/dvd?
On May 13, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Eric Oyen wrote: ok, thats a bunch of information. However, for me, its the same as rocket science as I am totally blind and would require sighted assistance just to get it to either install a network card, or port to USB/Serial. Unlike the rest of you, using a computer with little or no accessibility on boot-up is immeasurably harder. even porting to a braille display device is not straight forward. all I want is a way to make/execute a script to do the installation unattended or port to an interface that can be read with another machine with speech/braille already running. then again, it appears that it may be easier to get a $200 interface device that acts as the screen to the machine and outputs to either a network interface or a serial port. unfortunately, most blind folks cannot afford this, so having a stand-alone installer with speech or braille would be very helpful. -eric I believe I may have already replied somewhere about this, but I figger why not, just for safe. When I install my firewalls, I use a digi ts-2 (well, not a ts-4, since when last I ordered a ts-2 I got a ts-4). They can be had cheap on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digi-Portserver-TS-2-w-power-supply-Tested-Good-/1607 85148926 Of course, this is predicated on having an RS-232 interface (which the Alix boards I use, and the Suns, have). The beauty (and the ensuing security implications) are that you can telnet to this box from ANYTHING and get to the console of the device (be it a Sun or an Alix board, or whatever) and get just straight text out of it. Needless to say (and I realized I should say it), you don't put the TS on your DMZ, and you do secure it (the Digi's do have SSH). To go the completely fee and unattended path requires doing something like installing on a VM or something you can do easily, then building a distribution with your own installer. Most of that is straightforward, even getting the partitioning preconfigured. However, in my experience, it's just simpler to find tools to adapt to the already provided process -- otherwise, you have to do the same thing over and over again to get the same result. Of course, more and move vendors are building RS-232 free systems, and despite USB being a Universal Serial Bus, it is a pain in the ass to get a serial-usb plug working in either direction (drivers drivers drivers. Bah!). I wish you luck in whatever avenue you choose. Sean
Re: a live cd/dvd?
Thanks. already looking into it. I may have to figure out how to include a screen reader to work in this. there are 2 ways: using ORCA in the Gnome desktop environment (or XFCE) or a console based screenreader (speakup works, but requires a lot of modifications to get it running). ORCA on an X desktop is a bit easier (I use it in Linux) and only requires an accessible GTK interface and python (there are a few other dependencies as well). anyway, its up to me to see if I can do this (though having help would certainly be appreciated). -eric On May 13, 2012, at 5:36 PM, hvom .org wrote: Hi LiveCD on the unofficial openbsd : http://livecd-openbsd.sourceforge.net/ http://kaw.ath.cx/openbsd/?en/LiveCD 2012/5/12, Eric Oyen eric.o...@gmail.com: hello everyone. I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as well). Now, some systems have the ability to port the screen to a local serial port (these are getting rare in modern commodity systems) and there are a couple of screen device options that will allow either screen-console output or screen-network. these, however, are fairly expensive solutions. I even suggested this to an interviewer from the conference happening in canada today. Now, I do understand that making OpenBSD capable of this might entail a lot of development work. now, some linux projects (like OpenSUSE, Ubuntu and Vinux) can operate as a live dvd (and in the case of Vinux, even the installer is fully accessible) but OpenBSD isn't Linux. However, this type of installation system could prove to be very powerful as hardware detection and settings could be made before running the installation script. Oh, and Theo, I would understand if you find this idea a little far fetched. Still, all I request is that you and your team give it a look-see. I am still looking at using the custom scripting project to perform an install, but have run into a couple of snags dealing with some of the variables that need to be passed to the installer (I know, I know, read some more). anyway, take a look and see if this idea is doable. There are a lot of blind people like me that want something more secure than windows and easier to work. Let me know what you guys think. btw, as an afterthought, I should mention that I am using OpenBSD 5.0 with Speakup as the console screen reader. This system is my household firewall and internal DNS. -eric
Re: a live cd/dvd?
On May 11 18:47:22, Eric Oyen wrote: I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as well). Much as I applaud any improvement that would make OpenBSD more accessible to the blind, I fail to see how having a Live CD would contribute to that. now, some linux projects (like OpenSUSE, Ubuntu and Vinux) can operate as a live dvd (and in the case of Vinux, even the installer is fully accessible) but OpenBSD isn't Linux. This is very easily done with OpenBSD: install to an USB stick (which doesn't differ from any other installation); that's your live cd right there; then copy the install sets onto that USB stick, and boot bsd.rd if you want to install from that. See www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#flashmemLive I am still looking at using the custom scripting project to perform an install What custom scripting project? btw, as an afterthought, I should mention that I am using OpenBSD 5.0 with Speakup as the console screen reader. This system is my household firewall and internal DNS. Looking at speakup-3.1.6, it seems to be quite linux-specific, and I don't see a port for it. Do you have a patched version that you installed on your OpenBSD 5.0? On May 11 22:55:54, Weldon Goree wrote: I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as well). Like this one? [link removed] Or, if you want a USB stick, [link removed] Oh please. Stop spreading this crap. Read the FAQ link above instead. On May 11 20:40:41, Eric Oyen wrote: teaches me not to look at the website more often! /facepalm I never noticed these projects before. Eric, ignore this misguided 'project' and follow the standard install procedures. Jan
Re: a live cd/dvd?
2012/5/12 Eric Oyen eric.o...@gmail.com Oh, and Theo, I would understand if you find this idea a little far fetched. haha... little far fetched... Since when are u using OpenBSD? Reading misc@ ? Andri
Re: a live cd/dvd?
since when? h. let me think since about OpenBSD 4.2 or so. and yes, I still need some visual assistance when doing an install/upgrade. also, to answer another poster's question: I use speakup from a linux source package (with the proper line in sysctl.conf enabled for linux binaries. getting speakup to compile required that I also install a number of packages not currently in the ports tree. lets just say that it is a real headache. now, orca for X using XFCE works ok. it only requires the GTK dependencies, python 5, some misc dependencies (almost all of which can be found in the ports tree. still, I don't like using X as it can be a little less than intuitive for us blind users. still, given the number of access avenues we can use (serial port redirect, virtual framebuffer devices that can be remotely connected to, cheap sound devices and the like) a number of good possibilities can be taken advantage of. I have had chance to start trouble shooting the raw source code for speakup and I know what the headache it has: sloppy code and failed documentation. considering the time it takes to get that binary working, I am opting for a more hardware solution and get a network capable framegrabber device and run a lane cable from it to a dedicated lane port on my OS X machine. $234 will get me one next month. now, if there were a device/brain interface, then I could see the words in my braincase without the additional distractions of sound. still, it would be glorious to be able to interface in a way thought possible. I wish I could be able to plug right into my brain and show what it has been missing. as for my feat: I installed and hop it works.4.5 openbsd On May 12, 2012, at 2:58 AM, Andri wrote: 2012/5/12 Eric Oyen eric.o...@gmail.com Oh, and Theo, I would understand if you find this idea a little far fetched. haha... little far fetched... Since when are u using OpenBSD? Reading misc@ ? Andri
Re: a live cd/dvd?
Can you please let us know how you run it, and which packages you needed? The one at www.linux-speakup.org is a kernel module, and it isn't obvious how you use this with OpenBSD. On 2012 May 12 (Sat) at 03:48:35 -0700 (-0700), Eric Oyen wrote: :since when? h. let me think since about OpenBSD 4.2 or so. and yes, I :still need some visual assistance when doing an install/upgrade. : :also, to answer another poster's question: I use speakup from a linux source :package (with the proper line in sysctl.conf enabled for linux binaries. :getting speakup to compile required that I also install a number of packages :not currently in the ports tree. lets just say that it is a real headache. : :now, orca for X using XFCE works ok. it only requires the GTK dependencies, :python 5, some misc dependencies (almost all of which can be found in the :ports tree. still, I don't like using X as it can be a little less than :intuitive for us blind users. : :still, given the number of access avenues we can use (serial port redirect, :virtual framebuffer devices that can be remotely connected to, cheap sound :devices and the like) a number of good possibilities can be taken advantage :of. : :I have had chance to start trouble shooting the raw source code for speakup :and I know what the headache it has: sloppy code and failed documentation. :considering the time it takes to get that binary working, I am opting for a :more hardware solution and get a network capable framegrabber device and run a :lane cable from it to a dedicated lane port on my OS X machine. $234 will get :me one next month. now, if there were a device/brain interface, then I could :see the words in my braincase without the additional distractions of sound. :still, it would be glorious to be able to interface in a way thought possible. : :I wish I could be able to plug right into my brain and show what it has been :missing. : :as for my feat: I installed and hop it works.4.5 openbsd -- Baruch's Observation: If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Re: a live cd/dvd?
On 5/11/2012 8:48 PM, Nick Holland wrote: I suspect the interest in [an OpenBSD Live CD] is rapidly approaching zero. Its a concept who's time has come...and gone, I think. Five or six years ago, yeah...cool. Today...why?. A live CD gives you a very rigid, predefined read-only environment. I think a much more useful tool these days is a USB flash drive -- they are smaller than a CD, more rugged, and probably run on more modern systems than CDs do (I say that with some uncertainty -- some modern computers come with no DVD, virtually all come with USB ports, but some have broken BIOSs). While I generally agree a USB-based installation of whatever OS you prefer is a great solution to many tasks, I don't feel this description of a modern live CD environment is completely accurate. Before I went home on Friday, one of our not-production, local office machines needed some more room in its root filesystem so I booted into an Ubuntu live CD (11.04, I believe), manually brought up eth0, created and setup resolv.conf, apt-get installed lvm2 via network, and used the necessary tools to extend an LVM-based ext3 filesystem. Why did I do it that way? Because I had done it that way before without any problems, the CD was on the bench, the drive was available, it took about 20 minutes start to finish, and it effectively accomplished the task. At no point did I have to jump through any hoops like remounting something read/write. It was simply a usable Linux environment. I'm sure it had limitations that I do not know about and did not run into, but, respectfully (and rhetorically), what about that is pre-defined and rigid? To digress a little further, one day I was talking to our small-ish, local hardware vendor and he said he should charge to remove DVD drives from rack-mounted servers because he gets them back to have the drives put back in so often, and I wasn't sure if he was kidding or not. USB is great but, like you say, some BIOSes are broken and the death of the CD/DVD isn't upon us quite yet. I mean, look at OpenBSD's seemingly adamant support for floppy-based systems. Anyway, I hope that perspective is useful in some way. I have no strong opinion on the usefulness of an OpenBSD live CD, and this isn't a Linux mailing list blah blah blah -- gotcha. --
Re: a live cd/dvd?
On 05/12/12 14:16, Tyler Morgan wrote: On 5/11/2012 8:48 PM, Nick Holland wrote: I suspect the interest in [an OpenBSD Live CD] is rapidly approaching zero. Its a concept who's time has come...and gone, I think. Five or six years ago, yeah...cool. Today...why?. A live CD gives you a very rigid, predefined read-only environment. I think a much more useful tool these days is a USB flash drive -- they are smaller than a CD, more rugged, and probably run on more modern systems than CDs do (I say that with some uncertainty -- some modern computers come with no DVD, virtually all come with USB ports, but some have broken BIOSs). While I generally agree a USB-based installation of whatever OS you prefer is a great solution to many tasks, I don't feel this description of a modern live CD environment is completely accurate. Before I went home on Friday, one of our not-production, local office machines needed some more room in its root filesystem so I booted into an Ubuntu live CD (11.04, I believe), manually brought up eth0, created and setup resolv.conf, apt-get installed lvm2 via network, and used the necessary tools to extend an LVM-based ext3 filesystem. Why did I do it that way? Because I had done it that way before without any problems, the CD was on the bench, the drive was available, it took about 20 minutes start to finish, and it effectively accomplished the task. With OpenBSD, you do that kinda stuff by either bringing up the system in single user mode or with bsd.rd, booted from either the standard file system or standard boot cd. You don't need/want a live cd. And it won't take you 20 minutes, unless you need to fsck a really big file system, which is something you generally shouldn't need to do from single user mode or bsd.rd. Of course, you could do it with a USB flash drive, too, but that's all the hard way. As is using a Live CD under Unix, problem is, they don't provide you an easy way...so everyone is stuck singing the praises of an overly complex solution that hauled your butt out of the fire... hm...Stockholm Syndrome in the IT departments -- singing the praises of clumsy tools that shouldn't need to exist to get you out of situations you shouldn't have had to been in in the first place! At no point did I have to jump through any hoops like remounting something read/write. It was simply a usable Linux environment. I'm sure it had limitations that I do not know about and did not run into, but, respectfully (and rhetorically), what about that is pre-defined and rigid? It's a CD_ROM_. Read Only Memory. That is, pretty much by definition, pre-defined and rigid. ok, the person who put your Ubuntu live CD together gave you the tools you needed, and you downloaded some more to something other than the CD (either local file system or memory file system). But compared to a USB flash disk...you can load the tools on the flash, leaving your local file systems untouched, and without the memory cost of a memory file system. And yes, you can cram a lot of useful tools in a 700k CD, but not ALL useful tools. You can cram a lot more into a DVD, but not all computers have DVD drives on them (ok, that's a weak argument, as most machines that don't have DVD drives won't boot from a USB stick either). And, you still have a very finite space... However, 8GB flash drives are getting pretty cheap, you can put whatever _you_ want on one. No matter how you look at it, a boot flash drive will be more flexible, as you can make it as you want it, and adjust it afterwards. To digress a little further, one day I was talking to our small-ish, local hardware vendor and he said he should charge to remove DVD drives from rack-mounted servers because he gets them back to have the drives put back in so often, and I wasn't sure if he was kidding or not. USB is great but, like you say, some BIOSes are broken and the death of the CD/DVD isn't upon us quite yet. I mean, look at OpenBSD's seemingly adamant support for floppy-based systems. I'm not sure how that connects to the topic at hand. We aren't talking about removing CD/DVD drives from servers or dropping support of OpenBSD CD (or floppy) install processes...we are talking about creating special Live CDs (which are not currently generated or supported by the project, and I have heard ZERO interest in creating such a thing as part of the project) vs. full, normal installs of OpenBSD on flash disks (which are completely normal, and thus fully supported). btw: as USB ports are not as impacted by dust and age as CDs and DVDs are, in five or so years, today's server might be more likely to boot from a USB flash drive than the dust-encaked DVD drive. A better argument would be that sparc or alpha, or all our other platforms that can't boot from USB would be better served by a live CD than from USB flash drives. However, I've not heard too many requests for hppa Live CDs, there seems to be an unspoken
a live cd/dvd?
hello everyone. I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as well). Now, some systems have the ability to port the screen to a local serial port (these are getting rare in modern commodity systems) and there are a couple of screen device options that will allow either screen-console output or screen-network. these, however, are fairly expensive solutions. I even suggested this to an interviewer from the conference happening in canada today. Now, I do understand that making OpenBSD capable of this might entail a lot of development work. now, some linux projects (like OpenSUSE, Ubuntu and Vinux) can operate as a live dvd (and in the case of Vinux, even the installer is fully accessible) but OpenBSD isn't Linux. However, this type of installation system could prove to be very powerful as hardware detection and settings could be made before running the installation script. Oh, and Theo, I would understand if you find this idea a little far fetched. Still, all I request is that you and your team give it a look-see. I am still looking at using the custom scripting project to perform an install, but have run into a couple of snags dealing with some of the variables that need to be passed to the installer (I know, I know, read some more). anyway, take a look and see if this idea is doable. There are a lot of blind people like me that want something more secure than windows and easier to work. Let me know what you guys think. btw, as an afterthought, I should mention that I am using OpenBSD 5.0 with Speakup as the console screen reader. This system is my household firewall and internal DNS. -eric
Re: a live cd/dvd?
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 18:47 -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: hello everyone. I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as well). Like this one? http://livecd-openbsd.sourceforge.net/ Or, if you want a USB stick, http://liveusb-openbsd.sourceforge.net/ He hasn't released a 5.1 version yet (it's usually a month or so behind the release), but there are instructions for doing so if you want one and have a 5.1 installation somewhere. Weldon
Re: a live cd/dvd?
teaches me not to look at the website more often! /facepalm I never noticed these projects before. sometimes, being limited to braille or screen readers can be more than a little frustrating. thanks for the links though. I will give them a try and see what I can do with them. -eric On May 11, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Weldon Goree wrote: On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 18:47 -0700, Eric Oyen wrote: I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as well). Like this one? http://livecd-openbsd.sourceforge.net/ Or, if you want a USB stick, http://liveusb-openbsd.sourceforge.net/ He hasn't released a 5.1 version yet (it's usually a month or so behind the release), but there are instructions for doing so if you want one and have a 5.1 installation somewhere. Weldon
Re: a live cd/dvd?
On 05/11/12 21:46, Eric Oyen wrote: hello everyone. I was thinking that if we had a live image (A full running system) with an installer, we could have easier installations for the blind (and others as well). Now, some systems have the ability to port the screen to a local serial port (these are getting rare in modern commodity systems) and there are a couple of screen device options that will allow either screen-console output or screen-network. these, however, are fairly expensive solutions. I even suggested this to an interviewer from the conference happening in canada today. Now, I do understand that making OpenBSD capable of this might entail a lot of development work. now, some linux projects (like OpenSUSE, Ubuntu and Vinux) can operate as a live dvd (and in the case of Vinux, even the installer is fully accessible) but OpenBSD isn't Linux. However, this type of installation system could prove to be very powerful as hardware detection and settings could be made before running the installation script. Oh, and Theo, I would understand if you find this idea a little far fetched. Still, all I request is that you and your team give it a look-see. I am still looking at using the custom scripting project to perform an install, but have run into a couple of snags dealing with some of the variables that need to be passed to the installer (I know, I know, read some more). anyway, take a look and see if this idea is doable. There are a lot of blind people like me that want something more secure than windows and easier to work. Let me know what you guys think. btw, as an afterthought, I should mention that I am using OpenBSD 5.0 with Speakup as the console screen reader. This system is my household firewall and internal DNS. -eric gee...now I'm getting self-conscious... what's better for a screen reader, top posting or bottom posting? (Part of me really hopes you say top posting, love to stick it to the people who can't write in complete sentences, but will dictate to the rest of the world how to write). First of all...the easy part...live CD. I suspect the interest in that is rapidly approaching zero. Its a concept who's time has come...and gone, I think. Five or six years ago, yeah...cool. Today...why?. A live CD gives you a very rigid, predefined read-only environment. I think a much more useful tool these days is a USB flash drive -- they are smaller than a CD, more rugged, and probably run on more modern systems than CDs do (I say that with some uncertainty -- some modern computers come with no DVD, virtually all come with USB ports, but some have broken BIOSs). Making a live USB stick is exactly the same as making a standard install; no need for anything new, assuming you have something that can boot from a CD or floppy and has a USB port (bootable or not!) to do the initial install from. Making it into an installer is as simple as adding the standard install files to a subdirectory on the flash drive, booting bsd.rd and pointing the installer at that location for the files. As for a vision-impared-friendly version of OpenBSD, I think this is a potentially a great idea for a side project (unlike most side projects which would be better replaced with a few lines of explanatory instruction). I would think this would be best handled like OpenSSH and friends are handled -- take the basic OpenBSD and rebundle to add whatever you need to add to make it screen-reader friendly. Follow OpenBSD, but re-bundle it as you feel best. If there are things that create problems for the vision impaired in OpenBSD or screen-reader incompatabilities, make a diff, make a regression test and submit it for inclusion... As for sending the screen out to a serial port, It's In There -- just use a serial console, and tap it to your serial reader (I'm having Vortrax Type n Talk flashbacks) (actually, I'd half-guess a modern serial reader would provide the serial port pass-through, but I have no idea). You probably want something where you just echo what is on the screen to the serial port...I'm guessing that would be a modest change to the wscons subsystem (but please don't take my comments as anything resembling authoritative or correct). Nick.
