Re: [MD] Rhetoric

Adrie, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icCIkh-FL8A I love this song. This is our song. The song of me and... someone else I didn't have time to meet. The lyrics go: *** Do not believe in songs They turn you into a dreamer They may make you dig into things from which your mind is

Re: [MD] Annotations to LC

Adrie, it's too bad I'm using my "4 messages per day" do just issue short corrections, but: Confusion, yes, lila's child itself became as ment to be a clarification, a clarifusion only, a word salad so to speak and it was not Pirsig who was to blame. I understand what kind of a work you

Re: [MD] Annotations to LC

Adrie, just a sec. It became a sort of hashed essay full of plattifications,bodvarism's, amoq's plusmoq's,metamoq's,etc,regardless of the efforts that were done. There's no AMOQ in LC. Regards, Tuk --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

Re: [MD] Annotations to LC

Adrie, On 03-Nov-16 16:15, Adrie Kintziger wrote: =>@tuukka according your own statements a few converstations back,you did not read "lila" as a whole or did not read the book to the end,so i have to conclude that you are in no position to take a philosophical position on it. But it is some

[MD] Annotations to LC

Dan, Horse, Adrie, all, I've read LC RMP annotations and have some comments. And, from now on, I'm going to call Lila's Child LC because otherwise Adrie might confuse it with LILA. These comments pertain to the Heinous Quadrilemma but also other issues. "Jason: What distinguishes a high

Re: [MD] Annotations to LC

Dan, Horse, Adrie, all, I've read LC RMP annotations and have some comments. And, from now on, I'm going to call Lila's Child LC because otherwise Adrie might confuse it with LILA. These comments pertain to the Heinous Quadrilemma but also other issues. "Jason: What distinguishes a high

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

dmb, Tuukka asked: If logic is psychical how can pure experience logically precede subject and object? After all, logic doesn't exist at the stage where this precession should take place. dmb says: As odd or paradoxical as it may sound, pure experience not only logically precedes

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

Dan, On 23-Oct-16 22:52, Dan Glover wrote: Tuk, all, On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko <m...@tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote: Dan, all, On 23-Oct-16 2:10, Dan Glover wrote: Tuk, all, On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko <m...@tuukkavirtaperko.net>

[MD] Begging the question of what is Quality

All, According to the MOQ it's at least sometimes moral to beg the question of "What is Quality (ie. moral value)?" Pirsig claims to have empirical experience that doing so increases our understanding of morality and helps us in making moral choices. Begging the question is an informal

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

Dan, all, On 23-Oct-16 2:10, Dan Glover wrote: Tuk, all, On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko <m...@tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote: Dan, all, I wish to provide maximum clarity for my argument. The argument is about the logical consistency and logical implications of

[MD] The Heinous Quadrilemma

, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote: Dan, all, I wish to provide maximum clarity for my argument. The argument is about the logical consistency and logical implications of LC RMP annotation 67. The annotation includes the following statement: MOQ idealism: "The MOQ says that Quality comes first,

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

Dan, all, I wish to provide maximum clarity for my argument. The argument is about the logical consistency and logical implications of LC RMP annotation 67. The annotation includes the following statement: MOQ idealism: "The MOQ says that Quality comes first, which produces ideas, which

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

Dmb, On 21-Oct-16 23:19, david wrote: Tuk said to dmb: I do see the point in making helpful simplifications about subjects being social and intellectual and objects being inorganic and biological. But what is the real deal about subjects and objects? dmb says: The real deal with

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

Dan, But if it's moral to believe matter to come before mind it cannot be moral to also believe mind to come before matter unless it's moral to be inconsistent. And scientists are highly unlikely to find it moral to be inconsistent. Dan: This isn't what the citations I offered stated.

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

Dan, On 21-Oct-16 6:24, Dan Glover wrote: Tuk, all, On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 6:40 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko <m...@tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote: Dan, okay, looks like I should've studied Lila's Child better. However, if it's true that "matter comes before mind" and "min

Re: [MD] Why does Pirsig write everybody's right about mind and matter although his theses imply the opposite?

Dan, okay, looks like I should've studied Lila's Child better. However, if it's true that "matter comes before mind" and "mind comes before matter" then the MOQ is inconsistent. Obviously, the MOQ is not intended to be inconsistent. Furthermore, resorting to a notion of "complementarity"

Re: [MD] Punk Rock Existentialism

Arlo, John, for me the MOQ has been pretty much metal or psychedelic rock. Subversive, sophisticated and new. Intense, outstanding, somewhat marginal but self-sufficient. Or maybe I just liken the MOQ to whatever I've been listening while working on it. Ultimately, I'm not quite pluralistic

Re: [MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

Dan, all, is also biological, although not all biological patterns are social; so every intellectual pattern is social although not all social patterns are intellectual. Handshaking, ballroom dancing, raising one's right hand to take an oath, tipping one's hat to the ladies, saying "Gesundheit

Re: [MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

Dan, On 24-Jul-16 23:54, Dan Glover wrote: Tuukka, On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Tuk wrote: Dan, all, On 20-Jul-16 9:25, Dan Glover wrote: Tuukka, all, On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Tuk wrote: Dan, Adrie, all, Tuukka:

Re: [MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

All, there's a problem with the model below. Identifications of negative things (threat etc.) accumulate negative value, which means the system becomes biased towards not noticing them, as the system prefers valuable intellectual patterns. This can be solved so that identifications

Re: [MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

Horse, all, Horse: I think Magnus Berg had some good ideas from the early days of the Lila Squad (the original Lila Squad not the Johnny come lately bunch) regarding AI and the biological level. Be nice if he read this and joined in :) Tuukka: I've heard about this "original Lila Squad"

Re: [MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

se it does, but only seem to. So in essence this tends to render your argument null and void if one follows said reasoning above to its logical conclusion. Adrie 2016-07-15 15:43 GMT+02:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <m...@tuukkavirtaperko.net>: Dan, all, Whoops, I wrote: The reason why I said ino

Re: [MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

Dan, all, Whoops, I wrote: The reason why I said inorganic patterns have value only as extensions of biological patterns is that this way the inorganic level has some value, but it also has necessarily less value than the biological level. What I meant is that the inorganic level

Re: [MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

Dan, all The reason why I said inorganic patterns have value only as extensions of biological patterns is that this way the inorganic level has some value, but it also has necessarily less value than the biological level. This is required by Pirsig. If I drop the idea that an inorganic

Re: [MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

Dan, Adrie, all, thanks for that one, Adrie. I'll be careful! My previous post was about things I've already thought through but now I'll switch to a more tentative (and potentially more creative) mode of discussion. Dan: So I remember reading this speech by Leonard Cohen which you can

[MD] On Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner

All, I'm back, and I have results to offer you. Today I participated to a cocoa ceremony. During the ceremony we went to a pier where a woman played the guitar and we sang. At that moment I realized the guitar is an inorganic pattern whose value is the same as the value of the calming and

Re: [MD] What am I doing here?

dmb: If you want to be taken seriously, Tuukka, then don't say crazy shit. Tuukka: I already was taken seriously. You're trying to promise even more? Tuukka Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives:

[MD] What am I doing here?

All, Lately I've had a hard time figuring out why should I participate in discussion in the MOQ community. Not one person in the world understands my work. The mathematical structure of my metaphysics is understood by some, although none of them (with the possible exception of Tim)

Re: [MD] What am I doing here?

Ian, by speaking of a generalized you I spoke to the spirit of this forum that makes people express their support to me privately rather than publicly, on this forum. By doing so they could be doing me a favor. I don't want to get thrown out like Bo because my ideas were too popular. But

Re: [MD] What am I doing here?

with that - I just mean good use of our human faculties - which is where we all came in - what is good ? People mustn't confuse the quality of debate with the volume of the participation. As before, bye and take care, but stay in touch. Ian On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko m

Re: [MD] What am I doing here?

Arlo, [Arlo] I'm not sure which is your primary complaint, that no one wants to talk about your SOQ, or that no one who has talked to you about your SOQ understands what you're saying. And regarding both, you seem to suggest the 'problem' lies with everyone else. Well, the problem doesn't

Re: [MD] What am I doing here?

Craig, well, I guess I'm asking a lot if I'm asking you to read all these chapters, but on the other hand, you read LILA, which is a lot longer: http://www.moq.fi/sets-of-quality/on-relativizability/ http://www.moq.fi/sets-of-quality/the-subjective/

Re: [MD] What am I doing here?

Fifth post of day (this sixth). Sorry, couldn't help it. Had accidentally trashed one message, so thought I hadn't reached the limit. Tuukka 31.5.2012 22:15, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote: Craig, well, I guess I'm asking a lot if I'm asking you to read all these chapters, but on the other hand

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, [Arlo] Thanks Ant, its increasingly clear to me that Tuukka is really struggling with recursion. Hey claims to understand it, claims to have read Hofstadter, but in the next sentence falls right back into the very SOM trap Hofstadter (and Pirsig) warn against - of trying to 'formally

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

with a good grasp of dialectics. There's no need to become defensive before a challenge has been presented. Tuukka 21.5.2012 2:25, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote: Arlo, [Arlo] Thanks Ant, its increasingly clear to me that Tuukka is really struggling with recursion. Hey claims to understand it, claims

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Ant, Ian: Ant McWatt comments: Arlo, Cheers for this post. I found it a good summary of recursiveness. I have generally found Tuukka's comments in this thread rather inane (too Dynamic?) but, no matter, they've elicited some helpful (and patient!) responses from you. If I remember

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, [Arlo} Okay, can you give me an example of a pattern of value that is 'right' but is not 'useful'? Tuukka: No. I don't know what you mean by useful. When I spoke of usefulness, I only spoke metaphorically. If you did not understand the metaphor, I will just retact it. Arlo: Can

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, Arlo: You continue to confuse the metaphysics OF Quality with Quality, the menu for the 'food'. A rock is NOT a manifestation of the MOQ, it is an inorganic pattern OF Quality, a manifestation of Quality. The MOQ is an intellectual pattern that tries to describe this process. That a

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, in the metaphysical restaurant, things are different from an ordinary restaurant. Anything can be food, even the menu. I'm feasting on the menu, and you think I hold it as the golden calf. But even in the metaphysical restaurant you will break your teeth by feasting on the golden calf.

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, Craig, [Tuukka] I know this may sound silly, but instead of trying to be useful, I was trying to be right... [Arlo] your difficulty is approaching this from the SOM view, and you've clearly just demonstrated this in the above statement. [Craig] So is SOM not useful or is trying to be

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, this is actually pretty interesting. We have contradictory ideas of what it means for the MOQ to manifest. I could say you find this manifestation to take place in the meta axis. Here the MOQ may manifest as the int pattern. It also may manifest as a metatheory of MOQ like sq/DQ/MOQ

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, [Tuukka] Is this *recursion* an analogy of something I'm supposed to imagine or just perceive, or does it have static form? [Arlo] Recursion, like 'regress' or 'addition' or 'emergence' is an intellectual pattern of value used to describe experience. Other than Dynamic Quality,

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, [Tuukka] Due to my background with mathematics, I was checking whether this recursion is something that can be formally defined. If not, fine. [Arlo] I have to admit I'm a little surprised you have a background with mathematics but are not familiar with recursion. Your quest for 'formal

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, [Tuukka] I did not understand what part of the MOQ do you find as recursive, and how. [Arlo] Recursiveness is not a function of a 'part' of the MOQ, it is a unavoidable feature of all symbolic systems. A language (formal or informal) sufficiently powerful enough to describe experience

[MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

All, I'd like to open up some discussion about how the MOQ perceives the MOQ itself. I think we should all agree, that the MOQ is static. While I have complimented Marsha on living the MOQ, I have only complimented her attitude when doing so. Her attitude definitely is good for living a life,

Re: [MD] From the Administrator

Horse, with these rules, a lot of people might get banned within a decade. Maybe add a rule about suspensions expiring at a rate of one per year? None of my business, just a suggestion. Tuukka 14.5.2012 21:12, Horse kirjoitti: Hi Folks There seems to be some confusion about the 4 posts a

Re: [MD] Is the MOQ static, or a static pattern?

Arlo, Arlo: I think this (recursion) is the primary force behind Pirsig's notion that all this is just an analogy, and I think trying to got the route of 'regress' (rather than recursion) is a result of the very SOM type thinking Pirsig is arguing against. Tuukka: Is this *recursion* an

Re: [MD] Plato's Good

Mark, Mark: With due respect, nothing can be encapsulated into a definition. Tuukka: I like this opening of discussion, but the discussion it opens is not an easy one. It would have something to do with differentiating romantic quality and Dynamic Quality. This difference is by no means

Re: [MD] Plato's Good

John, No comment. :D Tuukka 9.5.2012 19:11, ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: Tuukka, Plato sounds like a lot of folks around here, doncha think? . Plato hadn't tried to destroy areté. He had encapsulated it; made a permanent, fixed Idea out of it; had converted it to a rigid, immobile

Re: [MD] Moving on

Andre, Tuukka to Andre: Whoa there, Cicero! :D Andre: I have no idea what that means...yes I am dim and stupid. What's your point? Tuukka: Cicero was a great orator. Whoa there means something to the effect of back down. Tuukka Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.

Re: [MD] Moving on

All, Andre: I really think you are deluding yourself Mark...but, of course cannot confirm. I think you want certainty. Ha! Be yourself and you have it...but stop talking bullshit to Anthony (among other people). Who the fuck do you think you are...just because you happen to live in

Re: [MD] Plato's Good

Mark, Ant Ant is right. Quality cannot be encapsulated into a definition. Chapter 29 of ZAMM: Why destroy areté? And no sooner had he asked the question than the answer came to him. Plato hadn't tried to destroy areté. He had encapsulated it; made a permanent, fixed Idea out of it; had

Re: [MD] Moving On

Mark, Ian, all, Mark: My thesis is similar to yours. As I see it, MoQ is a Western interpretation of a perennial philosophy. Tuukka: Agree. Ecspecially taking DQ into account, the MOQ has an origin in tribal-scale mysticism, with elements that have not been integrated into Western

Re: [MD] Moving On

Mark, Ian, all, Mark: As I have stated in previous posts, it is very difficult to distinguish between the conceptual and the preconceptual. It would appear that the line is drawn by the social level. That is, once we share something it becomes conceptual. Tuukka: If we use ZAMM's

[MD] Marsha: on cogito ergo sum

Marsha, some dude on ownerofreality.com wanted me to post this link on LS. When I did so, Mary said you need to read it. http://ruthlesstruthdotcom.blogspot.com/2010/10/thunder-and-sunshine.html Tuukka Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Joe, all, Joe said: In a metaphysical discussion you can't presume a definition. Tuukka: Yes you can, but the definition has no truth beyond the fact that it has been presumed. I would rather say, that the truthfulness of metaphysical assertions is arbitrary - they should always be judged

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ron, Catharsis is a cool thing. Check out these paintings of mine: http://www.tuukkavirtaperko.net/art/04p/depersonaliF.htm http://www.tuukkavirtaperko.net/art/04p/johdatus.htm Best, Tuukka 28.4.2012 17:51, X Acto wrote: Because no one has your experience except you, no one really knows

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ron, From: Tuukka : Ron: Probably because The MoQ holds that all truth statements are rhetorical. Thus truth statements are held to the contingent. Consequently Analytical philosophers are going to group MoQ with poststucturalism. This is why some of us

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ron, Ron: Well, duh, of course he would'nt because Pirsigs work centers around aesthetics. It is part of the tradition known as continental philosophy. A high I.Q. does not equal wisdom. Tuukka: In any case, we are not obliged to ban analytic interpretation of the MOQ for the purpose of

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ham, Hi Tuukka -- [Ham, previously]: I don't see why the emotions -- love, desire, awe, joy, etc. -- are assigned to a social level inasmuch as they constitute our most intimate personal feelings. Sure, we can enjoy or despise something collectively. But feelings are subjective; they are

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ham, the link you supplied was broken, so I went to http://www.essentialism.net/mechanic The background image makes the text difficult to read. You say: *Since metaphysical truth must hold for all possible worlds, the search is necessarily subjective in approach;* ** * *I agree with

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ham, but our theories coincide in that subjective quality is more fundamental than objective quality. Idealism seems to be coming back to fashion anyhow... well, I don't care about that, but I couldn't make the SOQ any other way. Both your essentialism and my SOQ seem to start with the

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ham, Nagarjuna, the important Mahayana Buddhist philosopher from ca. 150-250 CE, opposes essentialism in the Fundamentals of the Middle Way: http://www.bergen.edu/phr/121/NagarjunaGC.pdf Chapter 15: 1. It makes no sense to say that essence arises from causes and conditions. If essence were

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ron, Craig Ron: You are missing the general meaning of what I'm saying about explanation and truth statements.Almost purposely. Probably because it undermines your ambitions. Ron: I'm not misunderstanding nothing on purpose. Do you think I'd be so stupid as to come to MD to assert my

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ron, all you were asking for results. The formal approach of the SOQ can be used to point out a problem in a popular non-academic metaphysical theory known as the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe (CTMU). The author of the theory, Chris Langan, has the the highest IQ of anyone in the

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ron, all, I said: The formal approach is useful for solving disputes. I have formally defined Dynamic Quality as a nonrelativizably used predicate. This definition is only about the predicate, and not about what the predicate refers to - hence, it is no proper or usual definition. But it is

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Andre, The only thing I find, on this discuss with regards to 'improvements on Pirsig's MOQ' are organic and primal social (i.e biological and narcissistic) wanks. Why don't you stop wanking *me* and complaining you wouldn't like to do so? :D In my previous message, I told the SOQ can be

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Andre, Ham, Andre: Hi Tuukka and Anthony, if I may join in for a minute. I think the DQ/sq division is an improvement on the classic/romantic division. Static quality does not divide into classic/romantic precisely because of the DQ reference. In this case the (American Indian) mysticism.

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ham, Mark, Mark: As you well know, MoQ does dwell partly in the esoteric since that is where our intuition of DQ comes from. Ham: Frankly, I've found nothing particularly esoteric about Pirsig's philosophy. He equates Value (i.e., differentiated Quality) to direct experience, offering

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ham, Ant, dmb, Ham said to Anthony: .., what defines a philosophy is the ontology on which it is structured and which gives it meaning both within and outside of the definable (empirical) realm. ...Basically, a philosophy is a particular conception of reality that can be comprehended in

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ant, I don't remember who said it - maybe Pirsig - but the pencil is mightier than the pen. I do occasionally make mistakes. I'd love to write everything down in a flash of insight, but given that I spend several hours per day on these MOQ forums, I'm not at my best all the time. I simply

Re: [MD] [Tuukka] the object of philosophy

Ron, Tuukka, I am truly sorry for mispelling your name. You are the first Tuukka I've ever met. Tuukka: No problem. People do that every now and then. I didn't bother to point it out this time, because I thought you'd eventually notice. Ron: I thought you would benefit from these

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ron, Craig, Mark, Ham, DMB, Ant, all, Ron: It's all the power of persuasion. It's all a rhetorical arguement. Thats the point that is trying to be made. The best rhetorical arguements, the most persuasive are those predicated on first hand immediate empirical experience. Tuukka: If you

Re: [MD] [Tuukka] the object of philosophy

Ron, Ant, all, I read again what I wrote here: Tuukka: Yes. I am already aware of this, and require no reminders, but of course it's good to check that I know the basics. I hope it is not inappropriate that I cite my own work: Formal language is classic quality, not romantic quality. It

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ant, all, Tuukka stated April 13th 2012: My project, SOQ, is not an LS project. It's the project of me and a friend of mine. It obviously cannot compete with the ordinary, non-formal way of discussing the MOQ, because the language is too technical. By virtue of its approach, it's no more

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ant, all, Ant McWatt states: Tuukka, Just a brief comment about your second problem which I hope is helpful. You state in your “Introduction to the MOQ”: “Including Mathematics in the Intellectual Level” In a 2003 letter to Paul Turner, Pirsig includes mathematics in the

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ant, all, thank you for attempting to sort out this confusion. However, repeating your statement that I conflate epistemological and ontological subjectivity does not do much, as I already accepted this statement for purposes of simulating the difference between them, and perhaps actually

Re: [MD] Nonrelativizably Used Predicates

Mark, Mark: You seek to provide a description to Quality, but in a manner which does not make it derivative. MoQ can have the tendency to make that which is motion, motionless. In mathematics, this conundrum was solved by people such as Neuton and Liebnitz. That is, they could present motion

Re: [MD] Tuukka's letter to Robert Pirsig

Craig, very good questions. I like your approach. Let's get a bit clearer on this. Craig: [Tuukka, reconstructed] 1) A nonrelativizably used predicate is being used meaninglessly (from a logical point of view). Tuukka: True. 2) Using predicates meaninglessly is not allowed in

Re: [MD] A problem with the MOQ.

Ant, David, all Hi Ant and all, Ant wrote: Anyway, maybe the most interesting question that now arises is that while Pirsig was fortunate to stumble on the problem of defining value as his metaphysical starting point, what has his metaphysics (i.e. the MOQ) not taken account of properly?

Re: [MD] Nonrelativizably Used Predicates

Orn, Tuukka: An example of an abstract noun is: bravery. This noun has the property of being the opposite of cowardice. This is kindergarten stuff. Ron: Bravery is not relative to a particular experience, as say a concrete noun like strawberry is. This IS the context of your term

Re: [MD] Nonrelativizably Used Predicates

Ron: Ron: Then why waste both of our time. Tuukka: Well, seems like if you have the last say on nonrelativizably used predicates, it will be a misconception. You are perhaps wasting your time, but I am not wasting my time by removing misconceptions. Tuukka: Incorrect. Nonrelativizably

Re: [MD] Nonrelativizably Used Predicates

Ron, Ron: Any useful predicate is simple, and economical in explanation. Tuukka: Not true. The properties of the predicate the truth value of the Goldbach conjecture are extremely complicated, yet resolving it would be of some importance. Basically, if what you said here were true, any

Re: [MD] The Future of the MOQ

Mark, Hi Tuukka, Off-line since I have been banned for saying too much :-). The problem you present seems to arise from the supposed purpose of MoQ. Each of us has our own purpose therein. I commend you for yours. As you know, strapping metaphysics within the strict rules of academia will

Re: [MD] Nonrelativizably Used Predicates

Ron, Ron: Any useful predicate is simple, and economical in explanation. Tuukka: Not true. The properties of the predicate the truth value of the Goldbach conjecture are extremely complicated, yet resolving it would be of some importance. Basically, if what you said here were true, any

Re: [MD] Nonrelativizably Used Predicates

Ron, if you told a bunch of analytic philosophers Dynamic Quality is a nonrelativizably used predicate, they still might say it doesn't exist, or that it's useless, or some other negative thing like that, but at least they'd understand, what you're saying. These people are used to reading

[MD] The Future of the MOQ

Everyone, what are we going to do? The MOQ doesn't have a steady hold of the academia. It won't get there, if dismissed as nonsense. Are you fine with that? I'm not. My work is what you've needed for decades. Maybe you don't believe you need anything. Maybe you're fine just keeping the

[MD] Nonrelativizably Used Predicates

All, I was suspended for accidentally posting too much, so I sent these answers to Craig privately, but here they are for all. 4.4.2012: Hi Craig, Thank you for your interest. I am currently suspended for a week for accidentally posting five messages per day, so I will reply personally.

Re: [MD] Contradiction and incoherence

Marsha, If there's no intellectual quality, where's Dynamic Quality going to latch? To social patterns? Okay, but that can create new intellectual patterns. To biological and inorganic patterns? If so, then maybe you are a manifestation of Lila. What does it mean to kill an intellectual

Re: [MD] Contradiction and incoherence

Marsha, okay, but it's pretty harsh and vague to speak of killing an intellectual pattern. That's what created the misconception for me. No problem anymore, with the explanation. -Tuukka 1.4.2012 12:06, MarshaV wrote: Greetings Tuukka, On Apr 1, 2012, at 4:41 AM, Tuukka

Re: [MD] Contradiction and incoherence

Marsha, I don't care whose words they were. I was just checking. Maybe RMP's writing had a context which would have said the same things than you said when I asked for clarification. Maybe not. I don't care who says what - generally - only, what is said. -Tuukka Tuukka, And I agree with

Re: [MD] Tuukka's letter to Robert Pirsig

Ant, Ant McWatt comments: Tukkaa, I’ve read your letter that you posted at MOQ Discuss on March 27th and, amongst all the obscure Ptolemaic thinking, can’t see where you’ve unified the two distinct metaphysical frameworks found in ZMM and LILA. Tuukka: What do you mean by Ptolemaic?

Re: [MD] Tuukka's letter to Robert Pirsig

DMB, I think you are more lucky. -Tuukka Tuukka said: ... Pirsig seems to have missed, that subjective value patterns require subjective descriptions, and objective value patterns require objective description. RMP says in SODV, that the social pattern would be subjective, but all

Re: [MD] lila's soliloquy

Joe, Hi Tuukka, The rigid logic of mathematics cannot embrace indefinable DQ. Levels in evolution embrace DQ. The rigid logic of mathematics cannot embrace 1 as a metaphysical principle of 1, individuality, which flows through different disciplines in evolution. Joe On 3/30/12 6:50 AM,

Re: [MD] lila's soliloquy

Mark, Mark: Perhaps, as you say, set theory is not a useful mathematical metaphysics with which to present MoQ. Tuukka: I regret to inform you that you've gotten it wrong now. The MoQ cannot be adequately expressed by means of set theory. But that's not what I did. The MoQ can be expressed

Re: [MD] lila's soliloquy

Mark I agree that naming our theory Sets of Quality could seem to imply that it's only set theory. But it's not. It's not Set theory of Quality, it's Sets of Quality with sets and other stuff. -Tuukka 30.3.2012 16:50, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote: Mark, Mark: Perhaps, as you say, set theory

Re: [MD] Tuukka's letter to Robert Pirsig

. Is there any reason, why the number of patterns should be exactly four, as it is in LILA, and may not be anything else? Thank you, Mr. Pirsig, for giving a purpose for my life, even though I already had a few of them. Best regards, Tuukka Virtaperko Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing

Re: [MD] lila's soliloquy

Mark, Marsha Sorry for posting a short one. I try to not do that often. But I think all Marsha's answers here are good. She's not making any mistakes that I know of. Again, sentences like: Static quality is not other than Dynamic Quality, Dynamic Quality is not other than static quality.

Re: [MD] lila's soliloquy

in the future, but it's not living the MOQ. -Tuukka 28.3.2012 11:50, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote: Mark, Marsha Sorry for posting a short one. I try to not do that often. But I think all Marsha's answers here are good. She's not making any mistakes that I know of. Again, sentences like: Static quality

Re: [MD] Dewey's Zen

Ant, Andre Ant: The exact quote would be helpful but, yes, Pirsig has written/said similar elsewhere. But to clarify, I'd say the activity of conceptualising is Dynamic (i.e. the creative artistic part) while the rules and symbols themselves are static. Tuukka: I'd say it's romantic

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