Re: Partial vs Full tables

[Saku Ytti]

On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 02:22, Josh Hoppes  wrote:

> Juniper Networks has also tried using Bloom filters.
>
> https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170187624
>
> I think the QFX10002 was the first product they made which used this approach.
>
> https://forums.juniper.net/t5/Archive/Juniper-QFX10002-Technical-Overview/ba-p/270358

How they use it is not clear and it's not communicated in the article.
Bloom filter of course only answers to you 'maybe' or 'no', which is
not sufficient for egress rewrite information.

The article also implies the bloom filter is in HMC, which I don't
believe. I suspect roughly what is happening

a) there are N bloom filters on-chip
b) lookup is ran parallel to all N bloom filters
c) bloom filters which give 'maybe' answer, cause lookup to off-chip HMC

The naive approach would be 1 bloom filter per-netmask, so you have
LEM only lookups in HMC, and on-chip tells which LEM lookups to do, to
reduce LEM count from 32 to something rather less.

But this surely isn't what they are doing, because the hash population
is very different for /1 than it is to /24 and you want a reasonably
fair balance, while guaranteeing LEM to off-chip. But I'm sure this is
the gist of it, imprecise fast on-chip allowing LEM only off-chip.


-- 
  ++ytti

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Tom Beecher]

United Cable Company is primarily a broker.

To Rod's questions :

Sure, you can light a pair and monitor it many different ways. However, as
James has said already, most people who want dark fiber are going to want
one pair of glass from A to Z with nothing in the middle at all that they
don't know about. For me, I would want to know exactly what you had in
place ( full specifications , not hand waved 'monitoring device' ) , what
wavelengths it used, how it functioned (fully passive, etc), along with
some extensive tests to make sure I could do what I expected to without any
interference or surprises, before I would come near a contract with you.
>From my point of view, any device on the glass I am leasing is essentially
now part of my network, so I need to know everything about it. Others may
have different standards of course, but that's perfectly fine.

I would say personally though that if during due diligence, your NOC was
nothing more than an answering service to someone else, which it kinda
sounds like you want, I would personally not do business with that. Again
others may have different standards, and that's ok.



On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 7:54 PM Miles Fidelman 
wrote:

> *Rod Beck* rod.beck at unitedcablecompany.com
> 
> wrote
>
> I would calm down, Miles. 😃 Dark fiber networks are built and usually 
> maintained by the same construction company that installed them. And a dark 
> fiber network does not even need a single full time optical engineer. If the 
> cable is damaged, then the guys who installed it will repair it. All the 
> expertise is there.
>
> And no, I am not an executive at a undersea cable system. i was one of 
> Hibernia Atlantic's top salesmen during the early years from 2004-2011 after 
> which I retired.
>
>
> Funny thing then, given that you signed your original query as:
>
> Roderick Beck
> VP of Business Development
> United Cable 
> Companywww.unitedcablecompany.com
>
> And following the link to United Cable Company's web site reveals:
>
> "Your source for the world's most distinctive submarine cable assets."
> And the about page says "Its mission, as a leading telecom consulting
> company, is to represent the world’s most distinctive submarine and
> terrestrial cable assets."
>
> Your original query asked:
>
> Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair 
> in the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a 
> perfect solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been 
> damaged from an irate customer.
>
> In a followup message you say:
>
> Just to clarify, this is a dark fiber network already built and will be 
> repaired by the construction company that built it. I just a system to inform 
> them as soon as the fibers are damaged.
>
> So... color me confused about who you are, who you represent, what you're
> trying to accomplish, what you're asking, and, perhaps, why you don't
> already know the answer to your question, or have someone internal to your
> organization who already knows.
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra
>
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>
>

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Brandon Martin]

On 6/8/20 3:01 PM, Matt Harris wrote:
Is that considered true by most leased dark fiber providers? If I'm 
leasing a dark fiber circuit from a provider, I generally expect that 
what I'm leasing is in fact one [or more] physical strands of fiber - 
not a somehow redundant connection. Since he mentioned that this would 
be a dark fiber network, I would tend to assume that's the product that 
he'd be offering. Indeed, this has also been my experience with other 
providers, including very large and relatively smaller ones - when 
leasing dark fiber, or subscribing to a DWDM-based service, I'm going to 
be tied to a single, specific path and physical disruptions to said path 
will impact my connectivity. That's always been my expectation and 
experience at least - am I wrong, or has this changed at some point?


Some carriers offer protected waves.  They're protected at layer 1/1.5 
using a combination of OTN wrappers and optical switches.  My experience 
has been that "wave" services are generally unprotected unless you 
request otherwise.  They're also one of the few "lit" services where 
grooming clauses are not just well-accepted but often standard or even 
implied in the service definition (the service is defined as traversing 
a specific path/paths).  Protection usually comes at a premium cost 
since you're essentially buying the same lambda (or ODU) along multiple 
paths.


Glass is glass.  If you want protection, find more glass.  I'm not even 
sure how you'd offer a protected "dark fiber" service without 
encroaching on the ability of the subscriber to light it to their pleasing.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[James Jun]

On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 06:12:12PM -0400, Dave Cohen wrote:
> There is a middle ground between ???not managing customer light??? and ???not 
> managing anything??? though. The Adva ALM solution that a few folks that have 
> mentioned, along with others like Lucent SmartLGX, effectively bridge this 
> gap by helping trace the precise location of cuts and even smaller scale 
> incidents like microbends to expedite diagnosis and repair to the extent 
> possible. It???s not a panacea and definitely not a substitute for managing 
> the hardware at the endpoints, but it does improve operational responsiveness 
> in a measurable way. And yes, there are dark fiber providers in the Northeast 
> that leverage this technology, at least on some portion of their fiber 
> plants. 
>

Agreed that there is a middle ground.  Devices like these are something that 
customers can individually deploy on their lit fibers (then again, many optical
vendors now include automatic fault location (e.g. OTDR function) into their 
line interface cards with OSC add/drop filters (e.g. Ciena ESAM, etc).)

And ofcourse, I think it's great for carriers to deploy these on their own 
internal circuits for telemetry purposes and improve fault location response.

But as far as dark fiber pair that's being leased out to an end-user customer 
or another entity, I for one, do not want any carrier equipment whatsoever
on any fiber spans we obtain from another party (be it fiber swap with a 
carrier, or leased segment otherwise), full stop.   Everything else besides 
glass
is more attenuation to me, and with data center MMRs along the eway, there are 
already enough insertion losses as is.

James

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Pui Ee Luun Edylie]

The guy is asking a question, there is no need to act almighty if you dont have 
anything positive to add.Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 Original message From: Miles Fidelman 
 Date: 09/06/2020  08:22  (GMT+08:00) To:  Cc: 
nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions 
I ain't so little, and I'm old enough to call bullshit when I see
  it.

On 6/8/20 8:04 PM, TJ Trout wrote:


  
  stop being a disrespectful little prick.
  
  
On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:52 PM
  Miles Fidelman 
  wrote:


  
Rod
Beck rod.beck at
unitedcablecompany.com wrote


  I would calm down, Miles. 😃 Dark fiber networks are built and 
usually maintained by the same construction company that installed them. And a 
dark fiber network does not even need a single full time optical engineer. If 
the cable is damaged, then the guys who installed it will repair it. All the 
expertise is there.

And no, I am not an executive at a undersea cable system. i was one of Hibernia 
Atlantic's top salesmen during the early years from 2004-2011 after which I 
retired.

  

Funny thing then, given that you signed your original query
as:

  Roderick Beck
VP of Business Development
United Cable Company
www.unitedcablecompany.com

And following the link to United Cable Company's web site
  reveals:
"Your source for the world's most distinctive submarine
  cable assets."  And the about page says "Its mission, as a
  leading telecom consulting company, is to represent the
  world’s most distinctive submarine and terrestrial cable
  assets."
Your original query asked:
 

  Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a 
single pair in the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is 
not a perfect solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has 
been damaged from an irate customer.

In a followup message you say:
 

  Just to clarify, this is a dark fiber network already built and 
will be repaired by the construction company that built it. I just a system to 
inform them as soon as the fibers are damaged.


So... color me confused about who you are, who you
  represent, what you're trying to accomplish, what you're
  asking, and, perhaps, why you don't already know the
  answer to your question, or have someone internal to your
  organization who already knows.
Miles Fidelman


   

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. 
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. 
In our lab, theory and practice are combined: 
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
  

  

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. 
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. 
In our lab, theory and practice are combined: 
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
  

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Miles Fidelman]

I ain't so little, and I'm old enough to call bullshit when I see it.

On 6/8/20 8:04 PM, TJ Trout wrote:

stop being a disrespectful little prick.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:52 PM Miles Fidelman 
mailto:mfidel...@meetinghouse.net>> wrote:


*Rod Beck*rod.beck at unitedcablecompany.com


wrote


I would calm down, Miles. 😃 Dark fiber networks are built and usually 
maintained by the same construction company that installed them. And a dark 
fiber network does not even need a single full time optical engineer. If the 
cable is damaged, then the guys who installed it will repair it. All the 
expertise is there.

And no, I am not an executive at a undersea cable system. i was one of 
Hibernia Atlantic's top salesmen during the early years from 2004-2011 after 
which I retired.


Funny thing then, given that you signed your original query as:

Roderick Beck
VP of Business Development
United Cable Company
www.unitedcablecompany.com  
>


And following the link to United Cable Company's web site reveals:

"Your source for the world's most distinctive submarine cable
assets."  And the about page says "Its mission, as a leading
telecom consulting company, is to represent the world’s most
distinctive submarine and terrestrial cable assets."

Your original query asked:


Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single 
pair in the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a 
perfect solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been 
damaged from an irate customer.


In a followup message you say:


Just to clarify, this is a dark fiber network already built and will be 
repaired by the construction company that built it. I just a system to inform 
them as soon as the fibers are damaged.


So... color me confused about who you are, who you represent, what
you're trying to accomplish, what you're asking, and, perhaps, why
you don't already know the answer to your question, or have
someone internal to your organization who already knows.

Miles Fidelman

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.

In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[Anoop Ghanwani]

There are many different tries -- see here for some examples.
https://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/fast-ip-routing-with-lc-tries/184410638

And an enhancement to LC-tries
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A469814&dswid=-2401

Then there are radix-n (n-ary trie) lookups, e.g. radix-4 would look up
4-bits at a time and branch 16 ways.

Here's a good tutorial, and I don't think even this is exhaustive.
http://klamath.stanford.edu/~pankaj/talks/hoti_tutorial.ppt

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:19 PM Josh Hoppes  wrote:

> Juniper Networks has also tried using Bloom filters.
>
> https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170187624
>
> I think the QFX10002 was the first product they made which used this
> approach.
>
>
> https://forums.juniper.net/t5/Archive/Juniper-QFX10002-Technical-Overview/ba-p/270358
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:45 PM William Herrin  wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 10:52 AM  wrote:
> > > Every "fast" FIB implementation I'm aware of takes a set of prefixes,
> stores them in some sort of data structure, which can perform a
> longest-prefix lookup on the destination address and eventually get to an
> actual physical interface for forwarding that packet.  Exactly how those
> prefixes are stored and exactly how load-balancing is performed is *very*
> platform specific, and has tons of variability.  I've worked on at least a
> dozen different hardware based forwarding planes, and not a single pair of
> them used the same set of data structures and design tradeoffs.
> >
> > Howdy,
> >
> > AFAIK, there are two basic approaches: TCAM and Trie.  You can get off
> > in to the weeds fast dealing with how you manage that TCAM or Trie and
> > the Trie-based implementations have all manner of caching strategies
> > to speed them up but the basics go back to TCAM and Trie.
> >
> > TCAM (ternary content addressable memory) is a sort of tri-state SRAM
> > with a special read function. It's organized in rows and each bit in a
> > row is set to 0, 1 or Don't-Care. You organize the routes in that
> > memory in order from most to least specific with the netmask expressed
> > as don't-care bits. You feed the address you want to match in to the
> > TCAM. It's evaluated against every row in parallel during that clock
> > cycle. The TCAM spits out the first matching row.
> >
> > A Trie is a tree data structure organized by bits in the address.
> > Ordinary memory and CPU. Log-nish traversal down to the most specific
> > route. What you expect from a tree.
> >
> > Or have I missed one?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bill Herrin
> >
> >
> > --
> > William Herrin
> > b...@herrin.us
> > https://bill.herrin.us/
>

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[TJ Trout]

stop being a disrespectful little prick.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 4:52 PM Miles Fidelman 
wrote:

> *Rod Beck* rod.beck at unitedcablecompany.com
> 
> wrote
>
> I would calm down, Miles. 😃 Dark fiber networks are built and usually 
> maintained by the same construction company that installed them. And a dark 
> fiber network does not even need a single full time optical engineer. If the 
> cable is damaged, then the guys who installed it will repair it. All the 
> expertise is there.
>
> And no, I am not an executive at a undersea cable system. i was one of 
> Hibernia Atlantic's top salesmen during the early years from 2004-2011 after 
> which I retired.
>
>
> Funny thing then, given that you signed your original query as:
>
> Roderick Beck
> VP of Business Development
> United Cable 
> Companywww.unitedcablecompany.com
>
> And following the link to United Cable Company's web site reveals:
>
> "Your source for the world's most distinctive submarine cable assets."
> And the about page says "Its mission, as a leading telecom consulting
> company, is to represent the world’s most distinctive submarine and
> terrestrial cable assets."
>
> Your original query asked:
>
> Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair 
> in the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a 
> perfect solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been 
> damaged from an irate customer.
>
> In a followup message you say:
>
> Just to clarify, this is a dark fiber network already built and will be 
> repaired by the construction company that built it. I just a system to inform 
> them as soon as the fibers are damaged.
>
> So... color me confused about who you are, who you represent, what you're
> trying to accomplish, what you're asking, and, perhaps, why you don't
> already know the answer to your question, or have someone internal to your
> organization who already knows.
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra
>
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>
>

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Miles Fidelman]

*Rod Beck*rod.beck at unitedcablecompany.com 
 
wrote



I would calm down, Miles. 😃 Dark fiber networks are built and usually 
maintained by the same construction company that installed them. And a dark 
fiber network does not even need a single full time optical engineer. If the 
cable is damaged, then the guys who installed it will repair it. All the 
expertise is there.

And no, I am not an executive at a undersea cable system. i was one of Hibernia 
Atlantic's top salesmen during the early years from 2004-2011 after which I 
retired.


Funny thing then, given that you signed your original query as:


Roderick Beck
VP of Business Development
United Cable Company
www.unitedcablecompany.com>


And following the link to United Cable Company's web site reveals:

"Your source for the world's most distinctive submarine cable assets."  
And the about page says "Its mission, as a leading telecom consulting 
company, is to represent the world’s most distinctive submarine and 
terrestrial cable assets."


Your original query asked:


Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair in 
the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a perfect 
solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been damaged 
from an irate customer.


In a followup message you say:


Just to clarify, this is a dark fiber network already built and will be 
repaired by the construction company that built it. I just a system to inform 
them as soon as the fibers are damaged.


So... color me confused about who you are, who you represent, what 
you're trying to accomplish, what you're asking, and, perhaps, why you 
don't already know the answer to your question, or have someone internal 
to your organization who already knows.


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[Josh Hoppes]

Juniper Networks has also tried using Bloom filters.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170187624

I think the QFX10002 was the first product they made which used this approach.

https://forums.juniper.net/t5/Archive/Juniper-QFX10002-Technical-Overview/ba-p/270358

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:45 PM William Herrin  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 10:52 AM  wrote:
> > Every "fast" FIB implementation I'm aware of takes a set of prefixes, 
> > stores them in some sort of data structure, which can perform a 
> > longest-prefix lookup on the destination address and eventually get to an 
> > actual physical interface for forwarding that packet.  Exactly how those 
> > prefixes are stored and exactly how load-balancing is performed is *very* 
> > platform specific, and has tons of variability.  I've worked on at least a 
> > dozen different hardware based forwarding planes, and not a single pair of 
> > them used the same set of data structures and design tradeoffs.
>
> Howdy,
>
> AFAIK, there are two basic approaches: TCAM and Trie.  You can get off
> in to the weeds fast dealing with how you manage that TCAM or Trie and
> the Trie-based implementations have all manner of caching strategies
> to speed them up but the basics go back to TCAM and Trie.
>
> TCAM (ternary content addressable memory) is a sort of tri-state SRAM
> with a special read function. It's organized in rows and each bit in a
> row is set to 0, 1 or Don't-Care. You organize the routes in that
> memory in order from most to least specific with the netmask expressed
> as don't-care bits. You feed the address you want to match in to the
> TCAM. It's evaluated against every row in parallel during that clock
> cycle. The TCAM spits out the first matching row.
>
> A Trie is a tree data structure organized by bits in the address.
> Ordinary memory and CPU. Log-nish traversal down to the most specific
> route. What you expect from a tree.
>
> Or have I missed one?
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
> --
> William Herrin
> b...@herrin.us
> https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Mike Hammett]

Hrm, I got the impression from the OP that they're constructing a new network 
and contemplating lighting a single pair for telemetry and whole cable breaks.

I did not get the impression that they were getting strands from someone else 
and lighting it for sale to customers.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

- Original Message -
From: "Mel Beckman" 
To: "James Jun" 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 5:55:51 PM
Subject: Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

My understanding is that the OP wants to put the equipment on the fiber that he 
leases from a supplier. That’s the question

-mel via cell

> On Jun 8, 2020, at 2:38 PM, James Jun  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 08:10:44PM +, Mel Beckman wrote:
>> 
>> I???m not talking about a full-time engineer for the life of the network, 
>> just for designing the infrastructure management before first customer light.
>> 
>> -mel via cell
>> 
> 
> Dude, it's dark fiber.
> 
> I for one, do _NOT_ in any shape or form, want my DF provider to put any 
> equipment (monitoring, or otherwise) on strands I lease, period.  I just want
> tubes in the ground, end of story.  This is certainly not an airplane and 
> does not need a pilot.  It's passive tubes sitting on right of way and 
> customer
> is licensed to pass light thru that passive tube.  Everything else is extra, 
> and I want no active service whatsoever (besides for power capacity at
> regen plant colo).
> 
> If there is a disturbance event that creates LOS alarm on customer equipment, 
> they will call in and open a ticket to begin troubleshooting.
> 
> Name me one dark fiber provider in northeast that (unless you buy their 
> managed dark fiber solution) will monitor your fiber strands and the customer
> light for you.  I can tell you, major fiber providers in northeast are all 
> the same:  the customer is the monitoring system.  If fiber is down, customers
> call in.  In fact, I can't recount how many times I've had dealing with a 
> large fiber provider here (unnamed to protect the guilty) who also requests
> and asks customers to shoot OTDR for them.
> 
> Generally speaking, dark fiber providers who also compete with their 
> customers (e.g. fiber provider that sells lit services) have tendency to react
> faster to certain fiber cuts on certain routes, if their backbone links are 
> sitting in them.  But for specialty dark fiber providers who only sell dark,
> it's not a bad idea to light one of the strands for internal continuity 
> checks; but at worst case scenario, when a customer calls in to report an LOS
> alarm and suspects fiber disturbance, that's usually enough information to 
> start sending your crews out and begin taking traces.
> 
> James

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Mel Beckman]

My understanding is that the OP wants to put the equipment on the fiber that he 
leases from a supplier. That’s the question

-mel via cell

> On Jun 8, 2020, at 2:38 PM, James Jun  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 08:10:44PM +, Mel Beckman wrote:
>> 
>> I???m not talking about a full-time engineer for the life of the network, 
>> just for designing the infrastructure management before first customer light.
>> 
>> -mel via cell
>> 
> 
> Dude, it's dark fiber.
> 
> I for one, do _NOT_ in any shape or form, want my DF provider to put any 
> equipment (monitoring, or otherwise) on strands I lease, period.  I just want
> tubes in the ground, end of story.  This is certainly not an airplane and 
> does not need a pilot.  It's passive tubes sitting on right of way and 
> customer
> is licensed to pass light thru that passive tube.  Everything else is extra, 
> and I want no active service whatsoever (besides for power capacity at
> regen plant colo).
> 
> If there is a disturbance event that creates LOS alarm on customer equipment, 
> they will call in and open a ticket to begin troubleshooting.
> 
> Name me one dark fiber provider in northeast that (unless you buy their 
> managed dark fiber solution) will monitor your fiber strands and the customer
> light for you.  I can tell you, major fiber providers in northeast are all 
> the same:  the customer is the monitoring system.  If fiber is down, customers
> call in.  In fact, I can't recount how many times I've had dealing with a 
> large fiber provider here (unnamed to protect the guilty) who also requests
> and asks customers to shoot OTDR for them.
> 
> Generally speaking, dark fiber providers who also compete with their 
> customers (e.g. fiber provider that sells lit services) have tendency to react
> faster to certain fiber cuts on certain routes, if their backbone links are 
> sitting in them.  But for specialty dark fiber providers who only sell dark,
> it's not a bad idea to light one of the strands for internal continuity 
> checks; but at worst case scenario, when a customer calls in to report an LOS
> alarm and suspects fiber disturbance, that's usually enough information to 
> start sending your crews out and begin taking traces.
> 
> James

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Dave Cohen]

There is a middle ground between “not managing customer light” and “not 
managing anything” though. The Adva ALM solution that a few folks that have 
mentioned, along with others like Lucent SmartLGX, effectively bridge this gap 
by helping trace the precise location of cuts and even smaller scale incidents 
like microbends to expedite diagnosis and repair to the extent possible. It’s 
not a panacea and definitely not a substitute for managing the hardware at the 
endpoints, but it does improve operational responsiveness in a measurable way. 
And yes, there are dark fiber providers in the Northeast that leverage this 
technology, at least on some portion of their fiber plants. 

Dave Cohen
craetd...@gmail.com

> On Jun 8, 2020, at 5:40 PM, James Jun  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 08:10:44PM +, Mel Beckman wrote:
>> 
>> I???m not talking about a full-time engineer for the life of the network, 
>> just for designing the infrastructure management before first customer light.
>> 
>> -mel via cell
>> 
> 
> Dude, it's dark fiber.
> 
> I for one, do _NOT_ in any shape or form, want my DF provider to put any 
> equipment (monitoring, or otherwise) on strands I lease, period.  I just want
> tubes in the ground, end of story.  This is certainly not an airplane and 
> does not need a pilot.  It's passive tubes sitting on right of way and 
> customer
> is licensed to pass light thru that passive tube.  Everything else is extra, 
> and I want no active service whatsoever (besides for power capacity at
> regen plant colo).
> 
> If there is a disturbance event that creates LOS alarm on customer equipment, 
> they will call in and open a ticket to begin troubleshooting.
> 
> Name me one dark fiber provider in northeast that (unless you buy their 
> managed dark fiber solution) will monitor your fiber strands and the customer
> light for you.  I can tell you, major fiber providers in northeast are all 
> the same:  the customer is the monitoring system.  If fiber is down, customers
> call in.  In fact, I can't recount how many times I've had dealing with a 
> large fiber provider here (unnamed to protect the guilty) who also requests
> and asks customers to shoot OTDR for them.
> 
> Generally speaking, dark fiber providers who also compete with their 
> customers (e.g. fiber provider that sells lit services) have tendency to react
> faster to certain fiber cuts on certain routes, if their backbone links are 
> sitting in them.  But for specialty dark fiber providers who only sell dark,
> it's not a bad idea to light one of the strands for internal continuity 
> checks; but at worst case scenario, when a customer calls in to report an LOS
> alarm and suspects fiber disturbance, that's usually enough information to 
> start sending your crews out and begin taking traces.
> 
> James

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[James Jun]

On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 08:10:44PM +, Mel Beckman wrote:
> 
> I???m not talking about a full-time engineer for the life of the network, 
> just for designing the infrastructure management before first customer light.
> 
> -mel via cell
>

Dude, it's dark fiber.

I for one, do _NOT_ in any shape or form, want my DF provider to put any 
equipment (monitoring, or otherwise) on strands I lease, period.  I just want
tubes in the ground, end of story.  This is certainly not an airplane and does 
not need a pilot.  It's passive tubes sitting on right of way and customer
is licensed to pass light thru that passive tube.  Everything else is extra, 
and I want no active service whatsoever (besides for power capacity at
regen plant colo).

If there is a disturbance event that creates LOS alarm on customer equipment, 
they will call in and open a ticket to begin troubleshooting.

Name me one dark fiber provider in northeast that (unless you buy their managed 
dark fiber solution) will monitor your fiber strands and the customer
light for you.  I can tell you, major fiber providers in northeast are all the 
same:  the customer is the monitoring system.  If fiber is down, customers
call in.  In fact, I can't recount how many times I've had dealing with a large 
fiber provider here (unnamed to protect the guilty) who also requests
and asks customers to shoot OTDR for them.

Generally speaking, dark fiber providers who also compete with their customers 
(e.g. fiber provider that sells lit services) have tendency to react
faster to certain fiber cuts on certain routes, if their backbone links are 
sitting in them.  But for specialty dark fiber providers who only sell dark,
it's not a bad idea to light one of the strands for internal continuity checks; 
but at worst case scenario, when a customer calls in to report an LOS
alarm and suspects fiber disturbance, that's usually enough information to 
start sending your crews out and begin taking traces.

James

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Mel Beckman]

Miles? Who’s miles?

I’m not talking about a full-time engineer for the life of the network, just 
for designing the infrastructure management before first customer light.

-mel via cell

On Jun 8, 2020, at 12:43 PM, Rod Beck  wrote:


Exactly. Thanks very much , Roel.

Just to clarify, this is a dark fiber network already built and will be 
repaired by the construction company that built it. I just a system to inform 
them as soon as the fibers are damaged.

It is definitely not a plane and does not need a pilot. 🙂

Best,

Roderick.




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 9:25 PM
To: Roel Parijs 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org ; Rod Beck 

Subject: Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

Thank you for the most useful comment on the thread so far!

If I'm buying dark fiber, I'm expecting it to be a bunch of spliced glass from 
end to end. Maybe (maybe!) a connector or two for patching somewhere. However, 
something like this would be useful to sell "managed" dark fiber. You still get 
the strand, but I add these boxes (or something like them) to detect and locate 
failures non-intrusively.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

- Original Message -
From: "Roel Parijs" 
To: "Rod Beck" 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 1:44:39 PM
Subject: Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions


Hello,


Yes, you can install a permanent OTDR meter on the fiber.


Exfo used to have them but a very cost effective solution which we have been 
selling for years is the Adva ALM.
https://www.adva.com/en/products/network-infrastructure-assurance/alm

You can even monitor the actual customer fiber, since it uses wavelength 1650nm 
which does not interfere with Grey / CWDM / DWDM signals.
Up to 64 fibers per unit, with a maximum distance of 160km and it can even 
monitor PON networks behind the splitters.
The best part for troubleshooting is that it integrates with existing GIS 
systems which show you the location of the suspected cut on a map.


Regards
Roel


On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 8:25 PM Rod Beck < rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com > 
wrote:




Hi,



My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the Northeast.



We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a contact 
point for customers.



Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair in 
the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a perfect 
solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been damaged 
from an irate customer.



Best to take any replies off the message board.



Thanks.



Regards,



Roderick.













Roderick Beck VP of Business Development

United Cable Company

www.unitedcablecompany.com



New York City & Budapest


rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com

Budapest: 36-70-605-5144

NJ: 908-452-8183





1467221477350_image005.png

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Rod Beck]

Exactly. Thanks very much , Roel.

Just to clarify, this is a dark fiber network already built and will be 
repaired by the construction company that built it. I just a system to inform 
them as soon as the fibers are damaged.

It is definitely not a plane and does not need a pilot. 🙂

Best,

Roderick.




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 9:25 PM
To: Roel Parijs 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org ; Rod Beck 

Subject: Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

Thank you for the most useful comment on the thread so far!

If I'm buying dark fiber, I'm expecting it to be a bunch of spliced glass from 
end to end. Maybe (maybe!) a connector or two for patching somewhere. However, 
something like this would be useful to sell "managed" dark fiber. You still get 
the strand, but I add these boxes (or something like them) to detect and locate 
failures non-intrusively.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

- Original Message -
From: "Roel Parijs" 
To: "Rod Beck" 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 1:44:39 PM
Subject: Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions


Hello,


Yes, you can install a permanent OTDR meter on the fiber.


Exfo used to have them but a very cost effective solution which we have been 
selling for years is the Adva ALM.
https://www.adva.com/en/products/network-infrastructure-assurance/alm

You can even monitor the actual customer fiber, since it uses wavelength 1650nm 
which does not interfere with Grey / CWDM / DWDM signals.
Up to 64 fibers per unit, with a maximum distance of 160km and it can even 
monitor PON networks behind the splitters.
The best part for troubleshooting is that it integrates with existing GIS 
systems which show you the location of the suspected cut on a map.


Regards
Roel


On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 8:25 PM Rod Beck < rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com > 
wrote:




Hi,



My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the Northeast.



We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a contact 
point for customers.



Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair in 
the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a perfect 
solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been damaged 
from an irate customer.



Best to take any replies off the message board.



Thanks.



Regards,



Roderick.













Roderick Beck VP of Business Development

United Cable Company

www.unitedcablecompany.com



New York City & Budapest


rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com

Budapest: 36-70-605-5144

NJ: 908-452-8183





1467221477350_image005.png

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Rod Beck]

I would calm down, Miles. 😃 Dark fiber networks are built and usually 
maintained by the same construction company that installed them. And a dark 
fiber network does not even need a single full time optical engineer. If the 
cable is damaged, then the guys who installed it will repair it. All the 
expertise is there.

And no, I am not an executive at a undersea cable system. i was one of Hibernia 
Atlantic's top salesmen during the early years from 2004-2011 after which I 
retired.







From: NANOG  on behalf of Miles Fidelman 

Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 9:00 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions


without pilots... or a maintenance manager!

Speaking of which, seeing this kind of question, from a VP at a company in the 
submarine cable business, would sure make me leery of leasing fiber from them, 
if there's an alternative.  Now, one would not necessarily expect a VP of 
Business Development to know all the details of network management - but seems 
to me that he's basically advertising that he's learned about cable breaks from 
irate customers, rather than being forewarned by his operations team that 
"you're about to get a bunch of irate calls."

Heck, back in the old days (I was at BBN designing network management for the 
original Defense Data Network) - we knew how to instrument our networks, and 
design for redundancy & diverse routing.  Boy did we have egg on our face when 
a backhoe took out all the connectivity to the Northeast.  We detected the 
outage just fine - but we (and lots of other folks) were all caught short to 
discover that AT&T Long Lines routed all of our "redundant" circuits through 
the SAME fiber bundle.  I expect there are others here who remember that 
debacle.

Miles Fidelman

On 6/8/20 2:29 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
It sounds like you don’t have an experienced fiber optic network engineer on 
the project yet. There is much more to facilities monitoring then just checking 
for disruption. I recommend that you either retain a consulting engineer or 
employ one during development. I’m sure operators here are happy to share their 
ideas, but you will need some expertise in fiber infrastructure to make 
intelligent decisions about optics, wavelengths, in-band versus out-of-band 
administration, and a slew of other topics.

Doing this without experienced engineering help is like starting an airline 
without pilots :-)

-mel via cell

On Jun 8, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Rod Beck 
 wrote:


Hi,

My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the Northeast.

We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a contact 
point for customers.

Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair in 
the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a perfect 
solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been damaged 
from an irate customer.

Best to take any replies off the message board.

Thanks.

Regards,

Roderick.




Roderick Beck

VP of Business Development

United Cable Company

www.unitedcablecompany.com

New York City & Budapest

rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com

Budapest: 36-70-605-5144

NJ: 908-452-8183


[1467221477350_image005.png]

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Mike Hammett]

Thank you for the most useful comment on the thread so far!

If I'm buying dark fiber, I'm expecting it to be a bunch of spliced glass from 
end to end. Maybe (maybe!) a connector or two for patching somewhere. However, 
something like this would be useful to sell "managed" dark fiber. You still get 
the strand, but I add these boxes (or something like them) to detect and locate 
failures non-intrusively.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

- Original Message -
From: "Roel Parijs" 
To: "Rod Beck" 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 1:44:39 PM
Subject: Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions


Hello, 


Yes, you can install a permanent OTDR meter on the fiber. 


Exfo used to have them but a very cost effective solution which we have been 
selling for years is the Adva ALM. 
https://www.adva.com/en/products/network-infrastructure-assurance/alm 

You can even monitor the actual customer fiber, since it uses wavelength 1650nm 
which does not interfere with Grey / CWDM / DWDM signals. 
Up to 64 fibers per unit, with a maximum distance of 160km and it can even 
monitor PON networks behind the splitters. 
The best part for troubleshooting is that it integrates with existing GIS 
systems which show you the location of the suspected cut on a map. 


Regards 
Roel 


On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 8:25 PM Rod Beck < rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com > 
wrote: 




Hi, 



My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the Northeast. 



We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a contact 
point for customers. 



Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair in 
the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a perfect 
solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been damaged 
from an irate customer. 



Best to take any replies off the message board. 



Thanks. 



Regards, 



Roderick. 













Roderick Beck VP of Business Development 

United Cable Company 

www.unitedcablecompany.com 



New York City & Budapest 


rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com 

Budapest: 36-70-605-5144 

NJ: 908-452-8183 





1467221477350_image005.png

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Austin Kelly]

Hello,

I saw someone mentioned the ADVA ALM unit and I would agree that it is a great 
system to use. Just as another option you could check out the NTest Fiberwatch 
product as well:

http://www.ntestinc.com/fiberwatch/


Austin K.

From: NANOG  on behalf of Miles Fidelman 

Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 2:00 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions


without pilots... or a maintenance manager!

Speaking of which, seeing this kind of question, from a VP at a company in the 
submarine cable business, would sure make me leery of leasing fiber from them, 
if there's an alternative.  Now, one would not necessarily expect a VP of 
Business Development to know all the details of network management - but seems 
to me that he's basically advertising that he's learned about cable breaks from 
irate customers, rather than being forewarned by his operations team that 
"you're about to get a bunch of irate calls."

Heck, back in the old days (I was at BBN designing network management for the 
original Defense Data Network) - we knew how to instrument our networks, and 
design for redundancy & diverse routing.  Boy did we have egg on our face when 
a backhoe took out all the connectivity to the Northeast.  We detected the 
outage just fine - but we (and lots of other folks) were all caught short to 
discover that AT&T Long Lines routed all of our "redundant" circuits through 
the SAME fiber bundle.  I expect there are others here who remember that 
debacle.

Miles Fidelman

On 6/8/20 2:29 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
It sounds like you don’t have an experienced fiber optic network engineer on 
the project yet. There is much more to facilities monitoring then just checking 
for disruption. I recommend that you either retain a consulting engineer or 
employ one during development. I’m sure operators here are happy to share their 
ideas, but you will need some expertise in fiber infrastructure to make 
intelligent decisions about optics, wavelengths, in-band versus out-of-band 
administration, and a slew of other topics.

Doing this without experienced engineering help is like starting an airline 
without pilots :-)

-mel via cell

On Jun 8, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Rod Beck 
 wrote:


Hi,

My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the Northeast.

We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a contact 
point for customers.

Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair in 
the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a perfect 
solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been damaged 
from an irate customer.

Best to take any replies off the message board.

Thanks.

Regards,

Roderick.




Roderick Beck

VP of Business Development

United Cable Company

www.unitedcablecompany.com

New York City & Budapest

rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com

Budapest: 36-70-605-5144

NJ: 908-452-8183


[1467221477350_image005.png]

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Miles Fidelman]

without pilots... or a maintenance manager!

Speaking of which, seeing this kind of question, from a VP at a company 
in the submarine cable business, would sure make me leery of leasing 
fiber from them, if there's an alternative.  Now, one would not 
necessarily expect a VP of Business Development to know all the details 
of network management - but seems to me that he's basically advertising 
that he's learned about cable breaks from irate customers, rather than 
being forewarned by his operations team that "you're about to get a 
bunch of irate calls."


Heck, back in the old days (I was at BBN designing network management 
for the original Defense Data Network) - we knew how to instrument our 
networks, and design for redundancy & diverse routing.  Boy did we have 
egg on our face when a backhoe took out all the connectivity to the 
Northeast.  We detected the outage just fine - but we (and lots of other 
folks) were all caught short to discover that AT&T Long Lines routed all 
of our "redundant" circuits through the SAME fiber bundle.  I expect 
there are others here who remember that debacle.


Miles Fidelman

On 6/8/20 2:29 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
It sounds like you don’t have an experienced fiber optic network 
engineer on the project yet. There is much more to facilities 
monitoring then just checking for disruption. I recommend that you 
either retain a consulting engineer or employ one during development. 
I’m sure operators here are happy to share their ideas, but you will 
need some expertise in fiber infrastructure to make intelligent 
decisions about optics, wavelengths, in-band versus out-of-band 
administration, and a slew of other topics.


Doing this without experienced engineering help is like starting an 
airline without pilots :-)


-mel via cell

On Jun 8, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Rod Beck 
 wrote:



Hi,

My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the 
Northeast.


We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a 
contact point for customers.


Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a 
single pair in the cable and then monitoring it for signal 
disruption? It is not a perfect solution, but arguably better than 
learning that the cable has been damaged from an irate customer.


Best to take any replies off the message board.

Thanks.

Regards,

Roderick.



Roderick Beck

VP of Business Development

United Cable Company

www.unitedcablecompany.com 

New York City & Budapest

rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com

Budapest: 36-70-605-5144

NJ: 908-452-8183


1467221477350_image005.png


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Matt Harris]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 1:51 PM Miles Fidelman 
wrote:

> And... parenthetically, if a single link failure impacts customers, you're
> network is woefully badly designed.
>
Is that considered true by most leased dark fiber providers? If I'm leasing
a dark fiber circuit from a provider, I generally expect that what I'm
leasing is in fact one [or more] physical strands of fiber - not a somehow
redundant connection. Since he mentioned that this would be a dark fiber
network, I would tend to assume that's the product that he'd be offering.
Indeed, this has also been my experience with other providers, including
very large and relatively smaller ones - when leasing dark fiber, or
subscribing to a DWDM-based service, I'm going to be tied to a single,
specific path and physical disruptions to said path will impact my
connectivity. That's always been my expectation and experience at least -
am I wrong, or has this changed at some point?

- Matt

Matt Harris|Infrastructure Lead Engineer
816-256-5446|Direct
Looking for something?
Helpdesk Portal|Email Support|Billing Portal
We build and deliver end-to-end IT solutions.

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Miles Fidelman]

On 6/8/20 2:24 PM, Rod Beck wrote:


Hi,

My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the 
Northeast.


We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a 
contact point for customers.


Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a 
single pair in the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? 
It is not a perfect solution, but arguably better than learning that 
the cable has been damaged from an irate customer.


Well that's easy - any halfway decent networking gear will detect when a 
link goes down, and reporting that to a monitoring system. The hard part 
is locating the cable break, so you can fix it - not detecting it in the 
first place.



And... parenthetically, if a single link failure impacts customers, 
you're network is woefully badly designed.





Best to take any replies off the message board.

Probably best not to - a major point of this kind of list is to learn 
from each other.



Miles Fidelman



Thanks.

Regards,

Roderick.



Roderick Beck

VP of Business Development

United Cable Company

www.unitedcablecompany.com 

New York City & Budapest

rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com

Budapest: 36-70-605-5144

NJ: 908-452-8183


1467221477350_image005.png


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Roel Parijs]

Hello,

Yes, you can install a permanent OTDR meter on the fiber.

Exfo used to have them but a very cost effective solution which we have
been selling for years is the Adva ALM.
https://www.adva.com/en/products/network-infrastructure-assurance/alm
You can even monitor the actual customer fiber, since it uses wavelength
1650nm which does not interfere with Grey / CWDM / DWDM signals.
Up to 64 fibers per unit, with a maximum distance of 160km and it can even
monitor PON networks behind the splitters.
The best part for troubleshooting is that it integrates with existing GIS
systems which show you the location of the suspected cut on a map.

Regards
Roel

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 8:25 PM Rod Beck 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the
> Northeast.
>
> We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a contact
> point for customers.
>
> Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single
> pair in the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a
> perfect solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been
> damaged from an irate customer.
>
> Best to take any replies off the message board.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Roderick.
>
>
>
> Roderick Beck
> VP of Business Development
>
> United Cable Company
>
> www.unitedcablecompany.com
>
> New York City & Budapest
>
> rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com
>
> Budapest: 36-70-605-5144
>
> NJ: 908-452-8183
>
>
> [image: 1467221477350_image005.png]
>

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[William Herrin]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 10:52 AM  wrote:
> Every "fast" FIB implementation I'm aware of takes a set of prefixes, stores 
> them in some sort of data structure, which can perform a longest-prefix 
> lookup on the destination address and eventually get to an actual physical 
> interface for forwarding that packet.  Exactly how those prefixes are stored 
> and exactly how load-balancing is performed is *very* platform specific, and 
> has tons of variability.  I've worked on at least a dozen different hardware 
> based forwarding planes, and not a single pair of them used the same set of 
> data structures and design tradeoffs.

Howdy,

AFAIK, there are two basic approaches: TCAM and Trie.  You can get off
in to the weeds fast dealing with how you manage that TCAM or Trie and
the Trie-based implementations have all manner of caching strategies
to speed them up but the basics go back to TCAM and Trie.

TCAM (ternary content addressable memory) is a sort of tri-state SRAM
with a special read function. It's organized in rows and each bit in a
row is set to 0, 1 or Don't-Care. You organize the routes in that
memory in order from most to least specific with the netmask expressed
as don't-care bits. You feed the address you want to match in to the
TCAM. It's evaluated against every row in parallel during that clock
cycle. The TCAM spits out the first matching row.

A Trie is a tree data structure organized by bits in the address.
Ordinary memory and CPU. Log-nish traversal down to the most specific
route. What you expect from a tree.

Or have I missed one?

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[Mike Hammett]

I still know many ISPs that don't even come close to needing 1G of capacity and 
they serve hundreds of customers.

I'd say it's still relevant.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest-IX
http://www.midwest-ix.com

- Original Message -
From: "Nick Hilliard" 
To: "William Herrin" 
Cc: "NANOG" 
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 1:14:01 PM
Subject: Re: Partial vs Full tables

William Herrin wrote on 08/06/2020 18:53:
> 4 gigs and 2 cores is more than sufficient for a 1 gbps router at
> the current 800k routes
1gbps is residential access speed.  Is this still useful in the dfz?

Nick

Re: Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Mel Beckman]

It sounds like you don’t have an experienced fiber optic network engineer on 
the project yet. There is much more to facilities monitoring then just checking 
for disruption. I recommend that you either retain a consulting engineer or 
employ one during development. I’m sure operators here are happy to share their 
ideas, but you will need some expertise in fiber infrastructure to make 
intelligent decisions about optics, wavelengths, in-band versus out-of-band 
administration, and a slew of other topics.

Doing this without experienced engineering help is like starting an airline 
without pilots :-)

-mel via cell

On Jun 8, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Rod Beck  wrote:


Hi,

My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the Northeast.

We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a contact 
point for customers.

Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair in 
the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a perfect 
solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been damaged 
from an irate customer.

Best to take any replies off the message board.

Thanks.

Regards,

Roderick.




Roderick Beck

VP of Business Development

United Cable Company

www.unitedcablecompany.com

New York City & Budapest

rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com

Budapest: 36-70-605-5144

NJ: 908-452-8183


[1467221477350_image005.png]

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[William Herrin]

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 11:14 AM Nick Hilliard  wrote:
> William Herrin wrote on 08/06/2020 18:53:
> > 4 gigs and 2 cores is more than sufficient for a 1 gbps router at
> > the current 800k routes
> 1gbps is residential access speed.  Is this still useful in the dfz?

Not really the point. You can get 50-100gbps out of an x86 running
DPDK by throwing more cores at it without appreciably changing the
memory and CPU for the BGP load. My little 4 gig generic Linux VMs
that connect my leaf node to the Internet are the ones I have reliable
information on, so that's what I shared.

Regards,
Bill Herrin

-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Spoofer Report for NANOG for May 2020

[CAIDA Spoofer Project]

In response to feedback from operational security communities,
CAIDA's source address validation measurement project
(https://spoofer.caida.org) is automatically generating monthly
reports of ASes originating prefixes in BGP for systems from which
we received packets with a spoofed source address.
We are publishing these reports to network and security operations
lists in order to ensure this information reaches operational
contacts in these ASes.

This report summarises tests conducted within usa, can.

Inferred improvements during May 2020:
ASNName   Fixed-By
14860  AS-SMARTCOM2020-05-17

Further information for the inferred remediation is available at:
https://spoofer.caida.org/remedy.php

Source Address Validation issues inferred during May 2020:
ASNName   First-Spoofed Last-Spoofed
54825  PACKET2016-04-15   2020-05-01
209CENTURYLINK-US-LEGACY-QWEST   2016-08-16   2020-05-28
6128   CABLE-NET-1   2016-09-03   2020-05-27
7459   GRANDECOM-AS1 2016-09-26   2020-05-24
20412  CLARITY-TELECOM   2016-09-30   2020-05-25
6181   FUSE-NET  2016-10-10   2020-05-29
11427  TWC-11427-TEXAS   2016-10-21   2020-05-24
174COGENT-1742016-10-21   2020-05-29
32440  LONI  2016-11-03   2020-05-31
12083  WOW-INTERNET  2016-11-09   2020-05-30
39939  RISE-CO-AS39939   2016-11-11   2020-05-30
30036  MEDIACOM-ENTERPRISE-BUSINESS  2016-11-16   2020-05-28
9009   M247  2017-01-10   2020-05-27
63296  AWBROADBAND   2017-09-01   2020-05-27
36236  NETACTUATE2018-01-13   2020-05-24
40244  TURNKEY-INTERNET  2018-01-14   2020-05-24
1  AKAMAI2018-02-14   2020-05-07
20448  VPNTRANET-LLC 2018-09-20   2020-05-20
8047   GCI   2019-04-11   2020-05-28
6428   CDM   2019-06-04   2020-05-16
46300  HSC-WAP   2019-10-30   2020-05-28
21859  ZNET  2019-12-26   2020-05-27
239UTORONTO  2020-01-28   2020-05-30
13614  ALLWEST   2020-03-16   2020-05-21
26335  MTSU  2020-03-20   2020-05-07
7859   PAIR-NETWORKS 2020-04-03   2020-05-29
5078   ONENET-AS-1   2020-04-06   2020-05-30
13781  ENERGYNET 2020-04-15   2020-05-12
208217 YUNJIANET 2020-04-27   2020-05-25
64236  UNREAL-SERVERS2020-05-06   2020-05-06
393713 ALL-POINTS-BROADBAND-52020-05-08   2020-05-08
53356  WESTCONNECT   2020-05-19   2020-05-19
29844  SENAWAVE  2020-05-22   2020-05-26
18450  WEBNX 2020-05-24   2020-05-24
11650  PLDI  2020-05-25   2020-05-25
6391   URBAN-15  2020-05-29   2020-05-29

Further information for these tests where we received spoofed
packets is available at:
https://spoofer.caida.org/recent_tests.php?country_include=usa,can&no_block=1

Please send any feedback or suggestions to spoofer-i...@caida.org

Outsourced NOC Solutions

[Rod Beck]

Hi,

My colleague and I may be running a new dark fiber network in the Northeast.

We need an outsourced NOC to monitor for fiber cuts and serve as a contact 
point for customers.

Am I wrong in believing that there should be a way of lighting a single pair in 
the cable and then monitoring it for signal disruption? It is not a perfect 
solution, but arguably better than learning that the cable has been damaged 
from an irate customer.

Best to take any replies off the message board.

Thanks.

Regards,

Roderick.




Roderick Beck

VP of Business Development

United Cable Company

www.unitedcablecompany.com

New York City & Budapest

rod.b...@unitedcablecompany.com

Budapest: 36-70-605-5144

NJ: 908-452-8183


[1467221477350_image005.png]

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[Jakob Heitz (jheitz) via NANOG]

These are the first steps to optimization. Hysteresis is another.
They work in ideal cases. However, when coding, we need to consider
all cases. How do you set the timer?
The timer has to anticipate the future. It's like an automatic
transmission. It can't anticipate the future. However, the worst
that can happen if the automatic transmission anticipates
incorrectly is that it hunts.

Regards,
Jakob.

-Original Message-
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:14:17 +0200
From: Baldur Norddahl 

On 08.06.2020 07.56, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) via NANOG wrote:
> FIB compression comes with some risks.
> When routes churn, there are certain cases when you have to decompress the 
> FIB.
> Then, the FIB must have the space, or else OOPS.
> If a set of compressed routes has to change to decompress some and compress a
> different set to improve overall compression, there is a lot of FIB
> programming going on. This can cause very long convergence times.
>

The easy solution is to introduce some delay before programming the FIB. 
Or even process RIB updates as a separate thread, such that the FIB 
update thread does not try to program every step the RIB might go 
through. Instead the FIB update thread would take a snapshot of where we 
are now and where do we want to be and only program the diff.

Given the concept is a smaller FIB size, this might actually end up 
being less FIB programming.

Regards,

Baldur

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[Joe Greco]

On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 07:14:01PM +0100, Nick Hilliard wrote:
> William Herrin wrote on 08/06/2020 18:53:
> >4 gigs and 2 cores is more than sufficient for a 1 gbps router at
> >the current 800k routes
>
> 1gbps is residential access speed.  Is this still useful in the dfz?

Yes, it is.

... JG
-- 
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way
through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that
democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"-Asimov

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[Nick Hilliard]

William Herrin wrote on 08/06/2020 18:53:

4 gigs and 2 cores is more than sufficient for a 1 gbps router at
the current 800k routes

1gbps is residential access speed.  Is this still useful in the dfz?

Nick

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[William Herrin]

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 11:07 PM Saku Ytti  wrote:
> I'll take my imagination boat from the dry docks and sail to 2035. Lot
> of people still run Jericho ANET, it is the new CAT6500 PFC3. DFZ
> won't fit it anymore without redundant-specifics.
> Are we at all concerned that someone in the DFZ advertises a minimum
> set of prefixes needed to force decompression and if we are, how do we
> protect from it, if we are not, why are we not?

Limit announcements to /24: 2^24 max routes.
Subtract: 0.0.0.0/8, 10.0.0.0/8, 127.0.0.0/8, 224.0.0.0/3 and some
other reserved networks that don't (or at least aren't supposed to)
show up in the DFZ.

Leaves around 14M routes in the table at full disaggregation to /24.

Current TCAM-based equipment supports 1M - 2M routes. The tech readily
scales 7x just by throwing hardware at it (no redesign). Trie-based
equipment already supports 14M routes with sufficient DRAM and CPU (4
gigs and 2 cores is more than sufficient for a 1 gbps router at the
current 800k routes).

And that's the worst case. The IPv4 table will surely saturate and
stabilize long before 14M routes.

No crisis to avert. Just keep up with your upgrade schedules.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: understanding IPv6

[Pascal Thubert (pthubert) via NANOG]

Hello Baldur;

There’s the hack that can be helpful and then there’s the proper solution.

As for hacks, indeed snooping can help a lot. As it goes we went for ND and 
DHCP snooping rather than MLD and there are many reasons for that, reliability, 
Desire to know the address not just the snma group, how easily is to query from 
a L2 device such as an AP or a switch etc... you may look for IETF SAVI docs to 
see how that is done.

But then there are cases where the hack falls short. Snooping on wireless may 
miss packets, a silent node (e.g., wake on lan) may not show. The snooped  
state is mostly ok but not as good as a state that is installed And maintained 
by a protocol that is meant for it, including support for mobility and lifetime.

Not so surprising after all is it?

Pascal

Le 7 juin 2020 à 21:34, Baldur Norddahl  a écrit :


What I do not understand about this proposal is why we do not just fix wireless 
multicast? For example the AP could unicast multicast frames to subscribed STA 
and combined with MLD snooping we are done. Would be backwards compatible too, 
compared to a whole new protocol which will take decades to gain traction.

Regards,

Baldur


On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 8:59 PM Joel Halpern 
mailto:j...@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
Just to clarify context, at this stage this is just Pascal's interesting
idea for how to make ND work better on wireless.  No IETF working group
has adopted this.  Various people seem to be interested, but it will be
some time before we know if his approach gets traction.

The biggest difference between this and earlier changes along this line
is that the wireless broadcast problem provides motivation for the
change, where earlier efforts were more ~wouldn't it just be simpler if...~

Yours,
Joel Halpern

On 6/7/2020 2:28 PM, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
> What I'm amazed at is the concept of multi-link subnet and the change in
> IP model being proposed.
>
> See, for example, section 4 of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-6man-ipv6-over-wireless-05
>
> Has anyone felt the same about the change being proposed? This swept
> away 25 years of thinking about IP subnets and IP links for me.
>
> Etienne
>
> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:03 PM Brandon Martin 
> mailto:lists.na...@monmotha.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> On 6/7/20 6:01 AM, Denys Fedoryshchenko wrote:
>  > There are very interesting and unobvious moments on IPv4 vs IPv6,
> for
>  > example related to battery lifetime in embedded electronics. In
> ipv4,
>  > many devices are forced to send "keepalives" so that the NAT
> entry does
>  > not disappear, with IPv6 it is not required and bidirectional
>  > communications possible at any time. And in fact, it has a huge
> impact
>  > on the cost and battery life of IoT devices.
>  > When I developed some IoT devices for clients, it turned out that if
>  > "IPv6-only" is possible, this significantly reduces the cost of the
>  > solution and simplify setup.
>
> This is difficult to understate.  "People" are continually amazed
> when I
> show them that I can leave TCP sessions up for days at a time (with
> properly configured endpoints) with absolutely zero keepalive traffic
> being exchanged.
>
> As amusingly useful as this may be, it pales in comparison to the
> ability to do the same on deeply embedded devices running off small
> primary cell batteries.  I've got an industrial sensor network product
> where the device poll interval is upwards of 10 minutes, and even then
> it only turns on its receiver.  The transmitter only gets lit up about
> once a day for a "yes I'm still here" notification unless it has
> something else to say.
>
> In the end, we made it work across IPv4 by inserting an application
> level gateway.  We just couldn't get reliable, transparent IPv6
> full-prefix connectivity from any of the cellular telematics providers
> at the time.  I don't know if this has changed.  For our application,
> this was fine, but for mixed vendor "IoT" devices, it would probably
> not
> work out well.
> --
> Brandon Martin
>
>
>
> --
> Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
> Assistant Lecturer
> Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
> Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
> University of Malta
> Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale

Re: understanding IPv6

[Pascal Thubert (pthubert) via NANOG]

Hello Joel:

The draft is supposed to be factual not divagations; if I went too far 
somewhere I need to fix the draft. As you said it is early personal submission.

Multi links subnets are not a figment of my mind. We have millions of routers 
deployed that way, using RPL as the subnet routing protocol. Admittedly this is 
IoT but this is true nevertheless.

Keep safe,

Pascal

> Le 7 juin 2020 à 21:00, Joel Halpern  a écrit :
> 
> Just to clarify context, at this stage this is just Pascal's interesting 
> idea for how to make ND work better on wireless.  No IETF working group has 
> adopted this.  Various people seem to be interested, but it will be some time 
> before we know if his approach gets traction.
> 
> The biggest difference between this and earlier changes along this line is 
> that the wireless broadcast problem provides motivation for the change, where 
> earlier efforts were more ~wouldn't it just be simpler if...~
> 
> Yours,
> Joel Halpern
> 
>> On 6/7/2020 2:28 PM, Etienne-Victor Depasquale wrote:
>> What I'm amazed at is the concept of multi-link subnet and the change in IP 
>> model being proposed.
>> See, for example, section 4 of 
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-6man-ipv6-over-wireless-05
>> Has anyone felt the same about the change being proposed? This swept away 25 
>> years of thinking about IP subnets and IP links for me.
>> Etienne
>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 6:03 PM Brandon Martin > > wrote:
>>On 6/7/20 6:01 AM, Denys Fedoryshchenko wrote:
>> > There are very interesting and unobvious moments on IPv4 vs IPv6,
>>for
>> > example related to battery lifetime in embedded electronics. In
>>ipv4,
>> > many devices are forced to send "keepalives" so that the NAT
>>entry does
>> > not disappear, with IPv6 it is not required and bidirectional
>> > communications possible at any time. And in fact, it has a huge
>>impact
>> > on the cost and battery life of IoT devices.
>> > When I developed some IoT devices for clients, it turned out that if
>> > "IPv6-only" is possible, this significantly reduces the cost of the
>> > solution and simplify setup.
>>This is difficult to understate.  "People" are continually amazed
>>when I
>>show them that I can leave TCP sessions up for days at a time (with
>>properly configured endpoints) with absolutely zero keepalive traffic
>>being exchanged.
>>As amusingly useful as this may be, it pales in comparison to the
>>ability to do the same on deeply embedded devices running off small
>>primary cell batteries.  I've got an industrial sensor network product
>>where the device poll interval is upwards of 10 minutes, and even then
>>it only turns on its receiver.  The transmitter only gets lit up about
>>once a day for a "yes I'm still here" notification unless it has
>>something else to say.
>>In the end, we made it work across IPv4 by inserting an application
>>level gateway.  We just couldn't get reliable, transparent IPv6
>>full-prefix connectivity from any of the cellular telematics providers
>>at the time.  I don't know if this has changed.  For our application,
>>this was fine, but for mixed vendor "IoT" devices, it would probably
>>not
>>work out well.
>>-- Brandon Martin
>> -- 
>> Ing. Etienne-Victor Depasquale
>> Assistant Lecturer
>> Department of Communications & Computer Engineering
>> Faculty of Information & Communication Technology
>> University of Malta
>> Web. https://www.um.edu.mt/profile/etiennedepasquale
> 

Re: ACX5448

[Brian Johnson]

I’ve seen horror stories for almost every platform from every vendor over my 
time. It usually is caused from using the wrong device for the wrong purpose.

If you know its limitations, and use it with in the bounds of its capabilities, 
you will have very few issues with the ACX5448.

- Brian

> On Jun 5, 2020, at 8:21 AM, JASON BOTHE via NANOG  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> 
> Just curious if anyone on is using the ACX5448 and what their thoughts are on 
> it. 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> J~
> 

Re: IP whitelisting in twitter (the joy of full tunnel VPN)

[Yannis Mitsos]

So it a little bit more complicated, seems that twitter permits
authenticated access without rate-limiting, however it blocks access to
not-connected users.

On 23/5/20 3:46 μ.μ., Alfie Pates wrote:
> ... to make sure I don't get locked out again.
>
> ETOOMANYPLATES
>
> ~a

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[Baldur Norddahl]

On 08.06.2020 07.56, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) via NANOG wrote:

FIB compression comes with some risks.
When routes churn, there are certain cases when you have to decompress the FIB.
Then, the FIB must have the space, or else OOPS.
If a set of compressed routes has to change to decompress some and compress a
different set to improve overall compression, there is a lot of FIB
programming going on. This can cause very long convergence times.



The easy solution is to introduce some delay before programming the FIB. 
Or even process RIB updates as a separate thread, such that the FIB 
update thread does not try to program every step the RIB might go 
through. Instead the FIB update thread would take a snapshot of where we 
are now and where do we want to be and only program the diff.


Given the concept is a smaller FIB size, this might actually end up 
being less FIB programming.


Regards,

Baldur

Re: Partial vs Full tables

[Baldur Norddahl]

On 08.06.2020 08.04, Saku Ytti wrote:

On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 00:55, Ryan Woolley  wrote:


order of 2x) on even very-well-connected routers.  This is implemented
by Arista in the feature that Yang linked to with the URL containing
"fib-compression", but the actual command is better named: "ip fib
compression redundant-specifics filter"

I'll take my imagination boat from the dry docks and sail to 2035. Lot
of people still run Jericho ANET, it is the new CAT6500 PFC3. DFZ
won't fit it anymore without redundant-specifics.
Are we at all concerned that someone in the DFZ advertises a minimum
set of prefixes needed to force decompression and if we are, how do we
protect from it, if we are not, why are we not?



I imagine that is not so easily done. I can only get away with 
announcing prefixes that I own, which for most people will limit the 
amount of damage you could do. For someone who has unfiltered access to 
announce any prefix, he can already today announce 16 million x /24 and 
crash just about any router out there.


Regards,

Baldur