Re: How big is the Internet?

that there are relatively good estimates :: for other communication networks and utilities; i.e. :: how big is the PSTN :: how many television or radio stations, :: how much freight is carried by railroads, trucks and ships. centralized control :: But asking how big is the Internet [...] What so

Re: How big is the Internet? usage of electricity = coal for ICT

Hi, On 14/08/13 9:00 , Sean Donelan wrote: I should have remembered, NANOG prefers to correct things. So here are several estimates about how much IP/Internet traffic is downloaded in a month. Does anyone have better numbers, or better souces of numbers that can be shared? No source, but a

Re: How big is the Internet?

freight is carried by railroads, trucks and ships. But asking how big is the Internet, how much data does it carry, ends up with no answer. Even the researchers at the Library of Congress, if you give them enough beer and beg them enough, will eventually give you an estimate about the Library

Re: How big is the Internet?

. Same with the Internet. How big makes no sense. How much traffic begs the question of measured from where. A unique attribute of IP based transport is that -as far as I know- there is no measurement point between -every- pair of nodes that might exchange traffic. And since the instrumentation

Re: How big is the Internet?

feet tall and can weigh seven to twenty-six thousand pounds. Females elephants tend to be smaller smaller. Same with the Internet. How big makes no sense. How much traffic begs the question of measured from where. A unique attribute of IP based transport is that -as far as I know

How big is the Internet? - Results

Thanks for all the comments. Through the entire thread on-line and off-line only one person contributed an estimate Patrick Gilmore said: All that said: My back-of-the-envelope math says the Internet is order of 1 exabyte/day, as defined by my own rules on what counts as the

Re: How big is the Internet? - Results

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Sean Donelan wrote: Thanks for all the comments. Through the entire thread on-line and off-line only one person contributed an estimate Patrick Gilmore said: All that said: My back-of-the-envelope math says the Internet is order of 1 exabyte/day, as defined by my own

Re: How big is the Internet?

Perhaps more interesting than bytes on backbones would be the median distance to an Internet-connected device. -glen

Re: How big is the Internet?

Don't think I've seen it mentioned yet (but then I've stopped reading a lot of this thread): Akamai publishes a state of the net report periodically, with lots of statistics. http://www.akamai.com/stateoftheinternet/ Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Aug 14, 2013, at 3:27 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore patr...@ianai.net wrote: Once you define what you mean by how bit is the Internet, I'll be happy to spout off about how big it is. :) Arbitrary definition time: A Internet host is one that can send and receive packets directly with at least

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 8/14/13 8:11 PM, Jay Ashworth wrote: - Original Message - From: Sean Donelan s...@donelan.com What are the current estimates about the size of the Internet, all IP networks including managed IP and private IP, and all telecommunications including analog voice, video, sensor data,

Re: How big is the Internet?

You'd almost think this was a technology mailing list given some of the answers... (ohh.. wait!) How about this - the size of the Internet is just short of 3 billion. That's the number of people that have access to it. To me, that's a far more telling number than anything around IP address or

Re: How big is the Internet?

I agree, Librarys of Congress / second is the standard notation for bandwidth. -Blake On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Scott Howard sc...@doc.net.au wrote: You'd almost think this was a technology mailing list given some of the answers... (ohh.. wait!) How about this - the size of the

Re: How big is the Internet?

If devices behind an L3 proxy generate packets that end in the public Internet or if they get packets originated there, IMHO those devices are also part of the Internet not just the proxy, and you also may have that proxy for particular protocols but not all. -Jorge On Aug 15, 2013, at 9:05

Re: How big is the Internet?

What Congress ? We have to be very careful with this the ITU may complain the we are taking a US centric approach to the subject and the EU will debate for months on the definition of Library then ICANN will initiate a PDP to figure how to associate Library with Congress after the SSAC says it

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:30:24PM -0400, Scott Howard wrote: How about this - the size of the Internet is just short of 3 billion. That's the number of people that have access to it. To me, that's a far more telling number than anything around IP address or Exabytes of data. Sure enough --

Re: How big is the Internet?

I know the exact size: Infinite. When I was in the university I was downloading many things at the night, while the whole internet bandwith was wasted (hehehehe). Many times my wget -r -l 32 got stuck on things like CGI's that point to itself creating a infinite loop. This was in 2002, but

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Aug 15, 2013, at 10:05 , Leo Bicknell bickn...@ufp.org wrote: On Aug 14, 2013, at 3:27 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore patr...@ianai.net wrote: Once you define what you mean by how bit is the Internet, I'll be happy to spout off about how big it is. :) Arbitrary definition time: A Internet host

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Aug 15, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore patr...@ianai.net wrote: My laptop at home is an edge node under the definition above, despite being behind a NAT. My home NAS is as well. When I back up my laptop to my NAS over my home network, that traffic would be counted as Internet

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 8/14/2013 3:00 PM, Sean Donelan wrote: I should have remembered, NANOG prefers to correct things. So here are several estimates about how much IP/Internet traffic is downloaded I had always assumed that Bytes were like photons, and had no mass. -- Dave

Re: How big is the Internet?

Is internal DNS considered to be in the same realm? I agree with you, but I'm not totally sure there is a straight forward answer here. Device connected to internet, sends query (same as would be over the internet) to local DNS service. Is that an Internet transaction? On 8/15/13 1:10 PM, Leo

Re: How big is the Internet?

I neglected to say one additional thing which I think may be worth reading before replying. I have always held the opinion that internet traffic isn't internet traffic until it hits the Internet, which I defined as two or more autonomous systems functioning on their own but possessing the ability

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 8/15/2013 9:05 AM, Leo Bicknell wrote: On Aug 14, 2013, at 3:27 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore patr...@ianai.net wrote: Once you define what you mean by how bit is the Internet, I'll be happy to spout off about how big it is. :) Arbitrary definition time: A Internet host is one that can send and

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 20:48:53 -, Warren Bailey said: I neglected to say one additional thing which I think may be worth reading before replying. I have always held the opinion that internet traffic isn't internet traffic until it hits the Internet, which I defined as two or more autonomous

Re: How big is the Internet?

All this goes to the point that the original question was poorly worded and I daresay ill-conceived. There's no one number or one metric, much less one definition. It all depends on what the real question is that you're trying to answer and why. There is plenty of room for study; though it's

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 2013-08-15, at 16:18, Larry Sheldon larryshel...@cox.net wrote: Isn't that like excluding city streets from the How many miles of roads? question--likely to be the bigger fraction of the whole-as-a-traveler-sees-it? At last! A car analogy. I was beginning to think this was some other

Re: How big is the Internet?

One could say that the size of the internet is, up to isomorphism, 2; very precise but as useful as you predict. -- Mike On Aug 15, 2013, at 6:04 PM, Tony Tauber ttau...@1-4-5.net wrote: All this goes to the point that the original question was poorly worded and I daresay ill-conceived.

Re: How big is the Internet?

- Original Message - From: Jorge Amodio jmamo...@gmail.com What Congress ? We have to be very careful with this the ITU may complain the we are taking a US centric approach to the subject and the EU will debate for months on the definition of Library then ICANN will initiate a PDP to

Re: How big is the Internet?

- Original Message - From: Leo Bicknell bickn...@ufp.org I have a feeling that does not come close to matching the mental model most people have in their head of Internet traffic. But maybe I'm confused. It matches my mental model. Your network is connected to the Internet,

Re: How big is the Internet?

- Original Message - From: Warren Bailey wbai...@satelliteintelligencegroup.com I neglected to say one additional thing which I think may be worth reading before replying. I have always held the opinion that internet traffic isn't internet traffic until it hits the Internet, which I

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 06:04:19PM -0400, Tony Tauber wrote: All this goes to the point that the original question was poorly worded and I daresay ill-conceived. Are you saying there *are* dumb questions? :-)

Re: How big is the Internet?

- Original Message - From: Patrick W. Gilmore patr...@ianai.net I suspect that, to a first approximation, traffic which passes through the edge of at least one AS is probably what most people think of as 'Internet' traffic. As per my original post to this thread, that would

Re: How big is the Internet?

of measure. It seems odd that there are relatively good estimates for other communication networks and utilities; i.e. how big is the PSTN, how many television or radio stations, how much freight is carried by railroads, trucks and ships. But asking how big is the Internet, how much data does it carry

Re: How big is the Internet?

and ships. But asking how big is the Internet, how much data does it carry, ends up with no answer. Even the researchers at the Library of Congress, if you give them enough beer and beg them enough, will eventually give you an estimate about the Library collection size as of the end

Re: How big is the Internet?

television or radio stations, :: how much freight is carried by railroads, trucks and ships. centralized control :: But asking how big is the Internet [...] What so special :: about the Internet that it can't be measured? Not controlled by small groups of people in positions of power. Thus

How big is the Internet?

Researchers have complained for years about the lack of good statistics about the internet for a couple fo decades, since the end of NSFNET statistics. What are the current estimates about the size of the Internet, all IP networks including managed IP and private IP, and all telecommunications

Re: How big is the Internet?

Current size is HUGE and growing at a phenomenal speed. Public IP networks...just look at ARIN, RIPE,etc and see how many IPs there are left. Private networks and private IPs...well that is anyone's guess. There are no estimates because everything changes rather fast and noone can keep up

Re: How big is the Internet?

Iz this big *spreads arms wide open* On 13-08-14 11:10 AM, Alex wrote: Current size is HUGE and growing at a phenomenal speed. Public IP networks...just look at ARIN, RIPE,etc and see how many IPs there are left. Private networks and private IPs...well that is anyone's guess. There are no

RE: How big is the Internet?

Pretty big, but they gotta keep it trimmed down to fit on a floppy disk. Details within - http://www.cidr-report.org -James -Original Message- From: Sean Donelan [mailto:s...@donelan.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 7:32 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: How big is the Internet

Re: How big is the Internet?

One segment is the number of people on the planet with a mobile device that can connect to the Internet? Throw in laptops, workstations, servers, routers, toasters, etc and the number starts to get pretty big. The NSA will need some more hard drives. lol ** Of the 6 billion cell phones in

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 8/14/2013 5:32 PM, Sean Donelan wrote: What are the current estimates about the size of the Internet, the whole internet... .. is actually the same size in v4 and v6: 0/0 Frank PS: sorry. my mistake: one of them is ::/0

Re: How big is the Internet?

On (2013-08-14 10:32 -0400), Sean Donelan wrote: What are the current estimates about the size of the Internet, all IP networks including managed IP and private IP, and all telecommunications including analog voice, video, sensor data, etc? One interesting datapoint might be how many OUI have

Re: How big is the Internet? - about the size of a strawberry

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:32:13AM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: Researchers have complained for years about the lack of good statistics about the internet for a couple fo decades, since the end of NSFNET statistics. What are the current estimates about the size of the Internet, all IP

Re: How big is the Internet? - about the size of a tastey strawberry

On 14 August 2013 10:06, bmann...@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:32:13AM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: Researchers have complained for years about the lack of good statistics about the internet for a couple fo decades, since the end of NSFNET statistics. What are

Re: How big is the Internet?

This big has been a pretty accurate answer over the years -Jorge On Aug 14, 2013, at 9:32 AM, Sean Donelan s...@donelan.com wrote: Researchers have complained for years about the lack of good statistics about the internet for a couple fo decades, since the end of NSFNET statistics.

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 8/14/13, Jorge Amodio jmamo...@gmail.com wrote: This big has been a pretty accurate answer over the years -Jorge Oh hahahhaah. Oh man, I better get back to work. Have a nice day gentlemen :). Nick from Toronto.

Re: How big is the Internet?

Not as big as the one that got away... (IPv6) On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Sean Donelan s...@donelan.com wrote: Researchers have complained for years about the lack of good statistics about the internet for a couple fo decades, since the end of NSFNET statistics. What are the current

Re: How big is the Internet?

To paraphrase Douglas Adams... The Internet is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space! Scott On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Sean

Re: How big is the Internet?

According to The IT Crowd... http://vinipsmaker.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/the_internet_it_crowd.gif That big. On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 7:32 AM, Sean Donelan s...@donelan.com wrote: Researchers have complained for years about the lack of good statistics about the internet for a couple fo

Re: How big is the Internet?

You guys are cracking me up and I'm getting odd stares. Now stop it. I've got to get this internet thing on a CDROM for my boss by 5p so he can review it tonight... On Aug 14, 2013, at 1:43 PM, Wayne Wenthin wayne.went...@cascadetech.org wrote: According to The IT Crowd...

Re: How big is the Internet?

I should have remembered, NANOG prefers to correct things. So here are several estimates about how much IP/Internet traffic is downloaded in a month. Does anyone have better numbers, or better souces of numbers that can be shared? Arbor/Merit/Michigan Internet Observatory: 9,000 PB/month

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 03:00:51PM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: I should have remembered, NANOG prefers to correct things. So here are several estimates about how much IP/Internet traffic is downloaded in a month. Does anyone have better numbers, or better souces of numbers that can be

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 8/14/2013 11:29 AM, Scott Howard wrote: To paraphrase Douglas Adams... The Internet is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space! Scott

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 8/14/13 7:32 AM, Sean Donelan wrote: Researchers have complained for years about the lack of good statistics about the internet for a couple fo decades, since the end of NSFNET statistics. What are the current estimates about the size of the Internet, all IP networks including managed IP

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Aug 14, 2013, at 15:00 , Sean Donelan s...@donelan.com wrote: I should have remembered, NANOG prefers to correct things. So here are several estimates about how much IP/Internet traffic is downloaded in a month. Does anyone have better numbers, or better souces of numbers that can be

Re: How big is the Internet?

IPV6 makes it wider -Jorge On Aug 14, 2013, at 12:51 PM, Tim Durack tdur...@gmail.com wrote: Not as big as the one that got away... (IPv6)

Re: How big is the Internet?

In message 7f58db7c-702a-4d2d-ad50-6ddf98439...@gmail.com, Jorge Amodio writes: IPV6 makes it wider -Jorge On Aug 14, 2013, at 12:51 PM, Tim Durack tdur...@gmail.com wrote: Not as big as the one that got away... (IPv6) 10^12 km^3 -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley,

Re: How big is the Internet? - about the size of a strawberry

If we try to comprehend the Internet in terms of number of boxes that can reach from their local networks to globally routable destinations, we have to take into account Multi- NATed , multi-tunneled (ipv6 over ipv4 in a VPLS , and other crazy scenarios such v6 over v4 in a VPLS running over

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 8/14/2013 10:31 AM, Anthony Williams wrote: One segment is the number of people on the planet with a mobile device that can connect to the Internet? Throw in laptops, workstations, servers, routers, toasters, etc and the number starts to get pretty big. The NSA will need some more hard

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 8/14/2013 1:29 PM, Scott Howard wrote: To paraphrase Douglas Adams... The Internet is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space! It occurred

RE: How big is the Internet?

@nanog.org Subject: Re: How big is the Internet? On 8/14/2013 10:31 AM, Anthony Williams wrote: One segment is the number of people on the planet with a mobile device that can connect to the Internet? Throw in laptops, workstations, servers, routers, toasters, etc and the number starts to get pretty

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Alex dreamwave...@yahoo.com wrote: Current size is HUGE and growing at a phenomenal speed. Public IP networks...just look at ARIN, RIPE,etc and see how many IPs there are left. Private networks and private IPs...well that is anyone's guess. There are no

Re: How big is the Internet?

On 08/14/13 15:00, Roy wrote: On 8/14/2013 11:29 AM, Scott Howard wrote: To paraphrase Douglas Adams... The Internet is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's

Re: How big is the Internet?

- Original Message - From: Sean Donelan s...@donelan.com What are the current estimates about the size of the Internet, all IP networks including managed IP and private IP, and all telecommunications including analog voice, video, sensor data, etc? I can't decide, Sean, whether it's

Re: How big is the Internet?

- Original Message - From: Patrick W. Gilmore patr...@ianai.net All that said: My back-of-the-envelope math says the Internet is order of 1 exabyte/day, as defined by my own rules on what counts as the Internet[*]. I could easily be wrong, but you asked. Which means that you could

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Patrick W. Gilmore patr...@ianai.net All that said: My back-of-the-envelope math says the Internet is order of 1 exabyte/day, as defined by my own rules on what counts as the

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote: It is actually even harder than the above illustrates. Most people define Mbps on the Internet as inter-AS bits. But then what about Akamai AANP nodes, Google GGC nodes, Netflix Open Connect nodes, etc.? They are all inside the AS. Given that

Re: How big is the Internet?

so true On 8/14/2013 10:10 PM, Scott Howard wrote: On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Patrick W. Gilmore patr...@ianai.net All that said: My back-of-the-envelope math says the Internet is order of 1 exabyte/day, as defined

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Aug 15, 2013, at 00:19 , Sean Donelan s...@donelan.com wrote: On Wed, 14 Aug 2013, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote: It is actually even harder than the above illustrates. Most people define Mbps on the Internet as inter-AS bits. But then what about Akamai AANP nodes, Google GGC nodes, Netflix

Re: How big is the Internet?

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 9:27 PM, bmann...@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:19:38AM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: Either there is a lot of traffic missing, or market concentration is much greater than assumed. I'd argue that its both. I don't want to argue, but

Re: How big is the Internet?

i think of cdns as simpler. aside from the nyt-core-to-cdn traffic, they're just as if the nyt had connectivity to the provider(s) which embedded the cache. they are not another layer of traffic, but rather just traffic for the provider(s) in which they embedded. randy