subject:"Re\: Hurricane Electric AS6939"

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-15 Thread Radu-Adrian Feurdean




On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, at 22:40, Darin Steffl wrote:
> For 1G or less, ethernet 
> might be cheaper with some protection already 

Not to mention that 1G waves are becoming less and less comon those days. In 
this part of the world waves tend to start at 10G.

RE: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Luke Guillory

Which was my point is all, while it might be an extreme case, IP can cause 
issues for waves as well.

Luke

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 4:31 PM
To: Luke Guillory 
Cc: Matt Erculiani ; Darin Steffl 
; nanog list 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

*External Email: Use Caution*
Yes it did, because they were running all of those over their Infinera DWDM 
platforms which crashed. If the underlying optical line terminals are FUBAR, 
all bets are off.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:27 PM Luke Guillory 
mailto:lguill...@reservetele.com>> wrote:
Didn’t the Dec 2018 CL outage cause waves and even TDM circuits to go down?

Luke

From: NANOG 
mailto:reservetele@nanog.org>>
 On Behalf Of Matt Erculiani
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:59 PM
To: Darin Steffl mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>>
Cc: nanog list mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

*External Email: Use Caution*
For providers who use the same infrastructure for their IP backbone and 
Ethernet services (as so many do), a large DDoS could disrupt all Ethernet 
services that normally traverse affected links, whereas Waves would be 
blissfully ignorant of such an event. Waves are pretty reliable and will only 
go down as a result of a configuration error, vendor software issue, or 
physical/layer 1 failure, all of which can also affect Ethernet services.

This is especially important if you select a provider that sees excess capacity 
as a wasted operational expense instead of an investment in reliability.

Worth noting that protected Waves do have a "reconvergence" time like Ethernet 
would, but this is typically measured in nanoseconds for shorter distances. 
Your equipment can probably be configured to not link-down during this gap, 
you'll just see some errors or a few dropped packets (subject to your 
provider's specific implementation).

-Matt

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:41 PM Darin Steffl 
mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>> wrote:
Yes but they're $$$ to have protection. Generally ethernet will be cheaper than 
waves with the added protection.

I'm not arguing for one or the other. Waves will often be cheaper when looking 
at 10G or 100G compared to ethernet. For 1G or less, ethernet might be cheaper 
with some protection already built-in.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 3:31 PM Mike Hammett 
mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
*nods* There are protected wave services generally available if you wish to 
protect about such things.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing 
Solutions<https://link.edgepilot.com/s/cd68553f/FzIGmq4Z1U20Anv8NyxuBQ?u=http://www.ics-il.com/>

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP
<https://link.edgepilot.com/s/f5ae820f/h6FEx2U3g0ulO0XI8otFnw?u=https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>

From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: "Mike Hammett" 
Cc: "Eric Kuhnke" , "nanog list" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:08:19 PM
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut will 
take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have redundant 
paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and their first POP 
where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big difference when you're 
transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles. The longer the path, the less 
reliable the wave will be as each route mile opens you up to more risk.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities.

I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being able 
to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some point, 
you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave.

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP

From: "Eric Kuhnke" 
To: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
Cc: "nanog list" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:25:46 AM
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX point, 
you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a specific 
DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with 1310/LX 
interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between the carrier 
hotel and your service location.

Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you request an 
actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2 transport capable of 
large MTUs, QinQ, etc.

The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a vlan 
trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of possible things.

Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at the 
right time, and an older DWDM system on exa

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Eric Kuhnke

Yes it did, because they were running *all* of those over their Infinera
DWDM platforms which crashed. If the underlying optical line terminals are
FUBAR, all bets are off.



On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:27 PM Luke Guillory 
wrote:

> Didn’t the Dec 2018 CL outage cause waves and even TDM circuits to go down?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Luke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG  *On
> Behalf Of *Matt Erculiani
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:59 PM
> *To:* Darin Steffl 
> *Cc:* nanog list 
> *Subject:* Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>
>
>
> **External Email: Use Caution**
>
> For providers who use the same infrastructure for their IP backbone and
> Ethernet services (as so many do), a large DDoS could disrupt all Ethernet
> services that normally traverse affected links, whereas Waves would be
> blissfully ignorant of such an event. Waves are pretty reliable and will
> only go down as a result of a configuration error, vendor software issue,
> or physical/layer 1 failure, all of which can also affect Ethernet services.
>
>
>
> This is especially important if you select a provider that sees excess
> capacity as a wasted operational expense instead of an investment in
> reliability.
>
>
>
> Worth noting that protected Waves do have a "reconvergence" time like
> Ethernet would, but this is typically measured in nanoseconds for shorter
> distances. Your equipment can probably be configured to not link-down
> during this gap, you'll just see some errors or a few dropped packets
> (subject to your provider's specific implementation).
>
>
>
> -Matt
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:41 PM Darin Steffl 
> wrote:
>
> Yes but they're $$$ to have protection. Generally ethernet will be cheaper
> than waves with the added protection.
>
>
>
> I'm not arguing for one or the other. Waves will often be cheaper when
> looking at 10G or 100G compared to ethernet. For 1G or less, ethernet might
> be cheaper with some protection already built-in.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 3:31 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> *nods* There are protected wave services generally available if you wish
> to protect about such things.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
>
> *From: *"Darin Steffl" 
> *To: *"Mike Hammett" 
> *Cc: *"Eric Kuhnke" , "nanog list"  >
> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:08:19 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>
> The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut
> will take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have
> redundant paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and
> their first POP where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big
> difference when you're transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles.
> The longer the path, the less reliable the wave will be as each route mile
> opens you up to more risk.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities.
>
> I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being
> able to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some
> point, you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.yout

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Eric Kuhnke

The inverse of that is that an actual wavelength for 10/100G services can
be contractually defined to a certain specific path at OSI layer 1 (with
GIS vector shape files from the underlying carrier provided prior to
signing a contract). Whereas a layer 2 transport service could also turn
out to be unprotected, if it's a particularly low cost service.

Or it could be protected. And you might not have the ability to define its
path between city A and city B to intentionally avoid being non-diverse
from another route.

The L2 lit service carrier could re-route it around the region however they
want during the term of your service, if the contract isn't written to
avoid that.

In my experience actual wavelengths such as a carrier might use to
transport an STM64 between two places on far sides of a state, even
non-protected, will be considerably more expensive than buying lit L2
service. For small ISPs where their entire presence at an IX will fit in
one or two 10Gbps circuits, and a 100Gbps circuit from $smalltown to
$bigcity_ix_point would be cost prohibitive, it's often the best option.



On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:08 PM Darin Steffl 
wrote:

> The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut
> will take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have
> redundant paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and
> their first POP where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big
> difference when you're transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles.
> The longer the path, the less reliable the wave will be as each route mile
> opens you up to more risk.
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities.
>>
>> I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being
>> able to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some
>> point, you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>> --
>> *From: *"Eric Kuhnke" 
>> *To: *"Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
>> *Cc: *"nanog list" 
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:25:46 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>>
>> For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX
>> point, you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a
>> specific DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with
>> 1310/LX interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between
>> the carrier hotel and your service location.
>>
>> Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you
>> request an actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2
>> transport capable of large MTUs, QinQ, etc.
>>
>> The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a
>> vlan trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of
>> possible things.
>>
>> Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at
>> the right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you
>> wanted happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at
>> both ends.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
>> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and
>>> the IX fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting
>>> to peer at.
>>>
>>> For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit
>>> which terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric.   We don't have any
>>> other presence in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point -
>>> our circuit connects directly to our port on the Exchange.   We're
>>>

RE: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Luke Guillory

Didn’t the Dec 2018 CL outage cause waves and even TDM circuits to go down?



Luke



From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
Matt Erculiani
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:59 PM
To: Darin Steffl 
Cc: nanog list 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

*External Email: Use Caution*
For providers who use the same infrastructure for their IP backbone and 
Ethernet services (as so many do), a large DDoS could disrupt all Ethernet 
services that normally traverse affected links, whereas Waves would be 
blissfully ignorant of such an event. Waves are pretty reliable and will only 
go down as a result of a configuration error, vendor software issue, or 
physical/layer 1 failure, all of which can also affect Ethernet services.

This is especially important if you select a provider that sees excess capacity 
as a wasted operational expense instead of an investment in reliability.

Worth noting that protected Waves do have a "reconvergence" time like Ethernet 
would, but this is typically measured in nanoseconds for shorter distances. 
Your equipment can probably be configured to not link-down during this gap, 
you'll just see some errors or a few dropped packets (subject to your 
provider's specific implementation).

-Matt

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:41 PM Darin Steffl 
mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>> wrote:
Yes but they're $$$ to have protection. Generally ethernet will be cheaper than 
waves with the added protection.

I'm not arguing for one or the other. Waves will often be cheaper when looking 
at 10G or 100G compared to ethernet. For 1G or less, ethernet might be cheaper 
with some protection already built-in.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 3:31 PM Mike Hammett 
mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
*nods* There are protected wave services generally available if you wish to 
protect about such things.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

From: "Darin Steffl" mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>>
To: "Mike Hammett" mailto:na...@ics-il.net>>
Cc: "Eric Kuhnke" mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>, "nanog 
list" mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:08:19 PM
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut will 
take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have redundant 
paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and their first POP 
where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big difference when you're 
transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles. The longer the path, the less 
reliable the wave will be as each route mile opens you up to more risk.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett 
mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities.

I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being able 
to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some point, 
you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[http://

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Matt Erculiani

For providers who use the same infrastructure for their IP backbone and
Ethernet services (as so many do), a large DDoS could disrupt all Ethernet
services that normally traverse affected links, whereas Waves would be
blissfully ignorant of such an event. Waves are pretty reliable and will
only go down as a result of a configuration error, vendor software issue,
or physical/layer 1 failure, all of which can also affect Ethernet services.

This is especially important if you select a provider that sees excess
capacity as a wasted operational expense instead of an investment in
reliability.

Worth noting that protected Waves do have a "reconvergence" time like
Ethernet would, but this is typically measured in nanoseconds for shorter
distances. Your equipment can probably be configured to not link-down
during this gap, you'll just see some errors or a few dropped packets
(subject to your provider's specific implementation).

-Matt

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:41 PM Darin Steffl 
wrote:

> Yes but they're $$$ to have protection. Generally ethernet will be cheaper
> than waves with the added protection.
>
> I'm not arguing for one or the other. Waves will often be cheaper when
> looking at 10G or 100G compared to ethernet. For 1G or less, ethernet might
> be cheaper with some protection already built-in.
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 3:31 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> *nods* There are protected wave services generally available if you wish
>> to protect about such things.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>> ------
>> *From: *"Darin Steffl" 
>> *To: *"Mike Hammett" 
>> *Cc: *"Eric Kuhnke" , "nanog list" <
>> nanog@nanog.org>
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:08:19 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>>
>> The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut
>> will take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have
>> redundant paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and
>> their first POP where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big
>> difference when you're transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles.
>> The longer the path, the less reliable the wave will be as each route mile
>> opens you up to more risk.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>
>>> I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities.
>>>
>>> I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being
>>> able to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some
>>> point, you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>> --
>>> *From: *"Eric Kuhnke" 
>>> *To: *"Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
>>> *Cc: *"nanog list" 
>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:25:46 AM
>>> *Subject: *Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>>>
>>> For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX
>>> point, you almost

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Mike Hammett

*nods* instead of paying for protection, I'd rather just engineer a completely 
diverse route, preferable to a different Z location. Potential for greater 
diversity, you get more capacity. Costs may vary. 


I've seen similar things regarding 1G and less. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Darin Steffl"  
To: "Mike Hammett"  
Cc: "Eric Kuhnke" , "nanog list"  
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:40:50 PM 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 


Yes but they're $$$ to have protection. Generally ethernet will be cheaper than 
waves with the added protection. 


I'm not arguing for one or the other. Waves will often be cheaper when looking 
at 10G or 100G compared to ethernet. For 1G or less, ethernet might be cheaper 
with some protection already built-in. 


On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 3:31 PM Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




*nods* There are protected wave services generally available if you wish to 
protect about such things. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 



From: "Darin Steffl" < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > 
To: "Mike Hammett" < na...@ics-il.net > 
Cc: "Eric Kuhnke" < eric.kuh...@gmail.com >, "nanog list" < nanog@nanog.org > 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:08:19 PM 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 


The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut will 
take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have redundant 
paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and their first POP 
where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big difference when you're 
transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles. The longer the path, the less 
reliable the wave will be as each route mile opens you up to more risk. 


On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities. 

I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being able 
to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some point, 
you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 



From: "Eric Kuhnke" < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > 
To: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" < li...@packetflux.com > 
Cc: "nanog list" < nanog@nanog.org > 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:25:46 AM 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 



For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX point, 
you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a specific 
DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with 1310/LX 
interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between the carrier 
hotel and your service location. 



Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you request an 
actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2 transport capable of 
large MTUs, QinQ, etc. 



The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a vlan 
trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of possible things. 



Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at the 
right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you wanted 
happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at both ends. 












On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) < 
li...@packetflux.com > wrote: 



Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and the IX 
fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting to peer at. 


For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit which 
terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric. We don't have any other presence 
in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point - our circuit connects 
directly to our port on the Exchange. We're considering adding a similar link 
to another exchange point somewhere to the east or southeast of us. I haven't 
looked at the graphs recently, but it's not uncommon for >50% of our traffic to 
come from the exchange. And yes, we're peered with Hurricane and others there. 


We're also looking at dropping 1U or so of equipment in so we can pick up some 
transit as well, but that's a story for a different day about the joys of 
providing internet in the less populated parts of the country. 


In your case, it also looks like there are also some peering options at the 
datacenters you are currently at as well. You may want to do some more research 
to determine how that might work in your situation. PeeringD

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Darin Steffl

Yes but they're $$$ to have protection. Generally ethernet will be cheaper
than waves with the added protection.

I'm not arguing for one or the other. Waves will often be cheaper when
looking at 10G or 100G compared to ethernet. For 1G or less, ethernet might
be cheaper with some protection already built-in.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 3:31 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> *nods* There are protected wave services generally available if you wish
> to protect about such things.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
> *From: *"Darin Steffl" 
> *To: *"Mike Hammett" 
> *Cc: *"Eric Kuhnke" , "nanog list"  >
> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:08:19 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>
> The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut
> will take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have
> redundant paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and
> their first POP where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big
> difference when you're transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles.
> The longer the path, the less reliable the wave will be as each route mile
> opens you up to more risk.
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities.
>>
>> I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being
>> able to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some
>> point, you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>> --
>> *From: *"Eric Kuhnke" 
>> *To: *"Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
>> *Cc: *"nanog list" 
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:25:46 AM
>> *Subject: *Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>>
>> For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX
>> point, you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a
>> specific DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with
>> 1310/LX interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between
>> the carrier hotel and your service location.
>>
>> Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you
>> request an actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2
>> transport capable of large MTUs, QinQ, etc.
>>
>> The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a
>> vlan trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of
>> possible things.
>>
>> Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at
>> the right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you
>> wanted happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at
>> both ends.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
>> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and
>>> the IX fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting
>>> to peer a

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Mike Hammett

*nods* There are protected wave services generally available if you wish to 
protect about such things. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Darin Steffl"  
To: "Mike Hammett"  
Cc: "Eric Kuhnke" , "nanog list"  
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:08:19 PM 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 


The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut will 
take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have redundant 
paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and their first POP 
where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big difference when you're 
transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles. The longer the path, the less 
reliable the wave will be as each route mile opens you up to more risk. 


On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > wrote: 




I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities. 

I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being able 
to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some point, 
you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 



From: "Eric Kuhnke" < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > 
To: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" < li...@packetflux.com > 
Cc: "nanog list" < nanog@nanog.org > 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:25:46 AM 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 



For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX point, 
you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a specific 
DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with 1310/LX 
interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between the carrier 
hotel and your service location. 



Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you request an 
actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2 transport capable of 
large MTUs, QinQ, etc. 



The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a vlan 
trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of possible things. 



Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at the 
right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you wanted 
happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at both ends. 












On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) < 
li...@packetflux.com > wrote: 



Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and the IX 
fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting to peer at. 


For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit which 
terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric. We don't have any other presence 
in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point - our circuit connects 
directly to our port on the Exchange. We're considering adding a similar link 
to another exchange point somewhere to the east or southeast of us. I haven't 
looked at the graphs recently, but it's not uncommon for >50% of our traffic to 
come from the exchange. And yes, we're peered with Hurricane and others there. 


We're also looking at dropping 1U or so of equipment in so we can pick up some 
transit as well, but that's a story for a different day about the joys of 
providing internet in the less populated parts of the country. 


In your case, it also looks like there are also some peering options at the 
datacenters you are currently at as well. You may want to do some more research 
to determine how that might work in your situation. PeeringDB is a good 
resource along with google searches for "peering 100 Taylor" or "peering austin 
data foundry" 







On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:51 PM < aar...@gvtc.com > wrote: 





Don’t you have to be there to join? 

I’m in Austin and San Antonio 

-Aaron 



From: Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM 
To: Aaron Gould < aar...@gvtc.com > 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 


https://bgp.he.net/AS16527 



You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before buying 
another 100G of transit. 



DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




From: "Aaron Gould" < aar...@gvtc.com > 
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM 
Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939 

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent. 

-Aaron 





-- 


- Forrest 







-- 


Darin Steffl 
Minnesota WiFi 
www.mnwifi.com 
507-634-WiFi 
Like us on Facebook

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Darin Steffl

The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut
will take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have
redundant paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and
their first POP where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big
difference when you're transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles.
The longer the path, the less reliable the wave will be as each route mile
opens you up to more risk.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities.
>
> I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being
> able to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some
> point, you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
> *From: *"Eric Kuhnke" 
> *To: *"Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
> *Cc: *"nanog list" 
> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:25:46 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>
> For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX
> point, you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a
> specific DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with
> 1310/LX interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between
> the carrier hotel and your service location.
>
> Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you
> request an actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2
> transport capable of large MTUs, QinQ, etc.
>
> The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a
> vlan trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of
> possible things.
>
> Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at the
> right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you wanted
> happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at both
> ends.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
>> Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and
>> the IX fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting
>> to peer at.
>>
>> For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit
>> which terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric.   We don't have any
>> other presence in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point -
>> our circuit connects directly to our port on the Exchange.   We're
>> considering adding a similar link to another exchange point somewhere to
>> the east or southeast of us.   I haven't looked at the graphs recently, but
>> it's not uncommon for >50% of our traffic to come from the exchange.   And
>> yes, we're peered with Hurricane and others there.
>>
>> We're also looking at dropping 1U or so of equipment in so we can pick up
>> some transit as well, but that's a story for a different day about the joys
>> of providing internet in the less populated parts of the country.
>>
>> In your case, it also looks like there are also some peering options at
>> the datacenters you are currently at as well.   You may want to do some
>> more research to determine how that might work in your situation.
>>  PeeringDB is a good resource along with google searches for "peering 100
>> Taylor" or "peering austin data foundry"
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:51 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> Don’t you have to be there to join?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m in Austin and San Antonio
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Aaron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Mike Hammett 
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM
>>> *To:* Aaron Gould 
>>> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: Hurri

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Mike Hammett

I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities. 

I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being able 
to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some point, 
you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Eric Kuhnke"  
To: "Forrest Christian (List Account)"  
Cc: "nanog list"  
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:25:46 AM 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 



For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX point, 
you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a specific 
DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with 1310/LX 
interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between the carrier 
hotel and your service location. 



Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you request an 
actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2 transport capable of 
large MTUs, QinQ, etc. 



The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a vlan 
trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of possible things. 



Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at the 
right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you wanted 
happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at both ends. 












On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) < 
li...@packetflux.com > wrote: 



Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and the IX 
fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting to peer at. 


For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit which 
terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric. We don't have any other presence 
in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point - our circuit connects 
directly to our port on the Exchange. We're considering adding a similar link 
to another exchange point somewhere to the east or southeast of us. I haven't 
looked at the graphs recently, but it's not uncommon for >50% of our traffic to 
come from the exchange. And yes, we're peered with Hurricane and others there. 


We're also looking at dropping 1U or so of equipment in so we can pick up some 
transit as well, but that's a story for a different day about the joys of 
providing internet in the less populated parts of the country. 


In your case, it also looks like there are also some peering options at the 
datacenters you are currently at as well. You may want to do some more research 
to determine how that might work in your situation. PeeringDB is a good 
resource along with google searches for "peering 100 Taylor" or "peering austin 
data foundry" 







On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:51 PM < aar...@gvtc.com > wrote: 





Don’t you have to be there to join? 

I’m in Austin and San Antonio 

-Aaron 



From: Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net > 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM 
To: Aaron Gould < aar...@gvtc.com > 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 


https://bgp.he.net/AS16527 



You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before buying 
another 100G of transit. 



DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




From: "Aaron Gould" < aar...@gvtc.com > 
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM 
Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939 

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent. 

-Aaron 





-- 


- Forrest

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Mike Hammett

If an eyeball network has good peering, is there much value to be gained in 
chasing the long tail? It certainly presents a different cost perspective if 
you can pay a couple of the more premium networks for your remaining 15% - 20% 
of traffic not on the IXes. I just don't know that I'd really worry beyond two 
more premium transit networks if I was an eyeball that had mostly residential 
subscribers. 


What do I mean by premium transit network? Anyone more than $0.10/meg at 10G. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Baldur Norddahl"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 12:08:12 PM 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 







On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:30 AM Aaron Gould < aar...@gvtc.com > wrote: 


Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent. 

-Aaron 





I find HE useful as a special kind of transit provider. They have more peerings 
than anyone and they have peerings that you will not be able to get yourself. 
They are not necessarily a replacement for connecting directly to local 
internet exchanges, but rather a supplement. 


Unless you can afford to have most of the top tier transit providers, you will 
often get a more direct path through the many peerings of HE. Then as you grow 
and establish your own peerings, you will move some of that traffic away from 
HE to your own. 


One gotcha is that for some unknown reason, some of the big content networks do 
apparently not peer with HE. However as an eyeball network you will have little 
trouble getting those directly. 


Regards, 


Baldur

RE: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread aaron1

Thanks, Yeah MEF-speak….

 

Lit layer 2 untagged is EPL

Lit layer 2 tagged is EVPL

 

...it’s MEF (CE) terminology

 

-Aaron

 

 

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 8:44 AM
To: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Cc: nanog list 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

 

Charter/Spectrum calls it an EPL - Ethernet Private Line.


 

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Baldur Norddahl

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:30 AM Aaron Gould  wrote:

> Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for
> 100gig in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have
> Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.
>
> -Aaron
>

I find HE useful as a special kind of transit provider. They have more
peerings than anyone and they have peerings that you will not be able to
get yourself. They are not necessarily a replacement for connecting
directly to local internet exchanges, but rather a supplement.

Unless you can afford to have most of the top tier transit providers, you
will often get a more direct path through the many peerings of HE. Then as
you grow and establish your own peerings, you will move some of that
traffic away from HE to your own.

One gotcha is that for some unknown reason, some of the big content
networks do apparently not peer with HE. However as an eyeball network you
will have little trouble getting those directly.

Regards,

Baldur

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Mike Hammett

Cost isn't always the only factor one does something. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Darin Steffl"  
To: "Michael Spears"  
Cc: "Mike Hammett" , "Aaron Gould" , 
nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 8:23:28 AM 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 


Depending on transport costs, it may be cheaper to just use HE at a datacenter 
he's already in vs going to a datacenter he's not in currently. 


HE has 10G of transit for as low as $900 right now. If 10G of transport from 
him to an IX is more than that, there's no financial incentive to peer instead 
of buy more transit. Since HE peers with everyone on most IX's, he is 
essentially paying HE for full routes plus peering to the same IX he would go 
to anyway. It's lower cost and you kill two birds with one stone. I understand 
the desire to have your own connection to an IX but having HE in the mix is 
basically like peering direct since they're everywhere in nearly every IX. The 
other upside is you don't need to waste time trying to establish bilateral 
peering sessions with providers who don't peer with the route servers. 


On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:09 AM Michael Spears < mich...@spears.io > wrote: 





Yep. Get on some IXes first. You’d be able to offload a ton of traffic to free 
peering, vs sending everything via the transit you pay for. 



From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mike 
Hammett 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 8:20 PM 
To: Aaron Gould < aar...@gvtc.com > 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 


https://bgp.he.net/AS16527 



You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before buying 
another 100G of transit. 



DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




From: "Aaron Gould" < aar...@gvtc.com > 
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM 
Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939 

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent. 

-Aaron

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Mike Hammett

There's a startup IX in those markets, but it's not going to take much of your 
traffic. 


Yes, you would have to get a 100G wave to DFW. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: aar...@gvtc.com 
To: "Mike Hammett"  
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 10:51:16 PM 
Subject: RE: Hurricane Electric AS6939 



Don’t you have to be there to join? 

I’m in Austin and San Antonio 

-Aaron 



From: Mike Hammett  
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM 
To: Aaron Gould  
Cc: nanog@nanog.org 
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 


https://bgp.he.net/AS16527 



You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before buying 
another 100G of transit. 



DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




From: "Aaron Gould" < aar...@gvtc.com > 
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM 
Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939 

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent. 

-Aaron

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Kaiser, Erich

Depending on peer traffic, it may make more sense to co-locate a switch at
a DC and then bring in some PNIs from your top usage peers.  Check your
peer usage using something like AS-Stats.

Your top usage peers are going to be your most costly expense in the end...

Erich Kaiser
The Fusion Network
er...@gotfusion.net
Office: 815-570-3101

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 9:19 AM Jared Mauch  wrote:

>
>
> > On Oct 13, 2020, at 7:29 PM, Aaron Gould  wrote:
> >
> > Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for
> 100gig in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have
> Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.
>
> No.  Too many problems with scenic routing due to lack of BGP communities
> to control route advertisements.
>
> Also the usual lack of full table issue due to route suppression on their
> transits based on AFI.
>
> I’m sure it works well for many people, but if you are large enough you
> need to do any form of TE the lack of BGP communities is a major issue.
>
> - Jared

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Jared Mauch

> On Oct 13, 2020, at 7:29 PM, Aaron Gould  wrote:
> 
> Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for 
> 100gig in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have 
> Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.

No.  Too many problems with scenic routing due to lack of BGP communities to 
control route advertisements.

Also the usual lack of full table issue due to route suppression on their 
transits based on AFI.

I’m sure it works well for many people, but if you are large enough you need to 
do any form of TE the lack of BGP communities is a major issue.

- Jared

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Josh Luthman

Charter/Spectrum calls it an EPL - Ethernet Private Line.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 4:08 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I guess I should have been a bit clearer.
>
> Yes, what you would be ordering is typically a lit L2 circuit.   However,
> my experience is that certain carrier salespeople tend to call anything
> like this a 'wave'.  I have had lots of discussions over the years with
> various salespeople about the difference, and yes, it's pretty much always
> lit L2.   Centurylink (now Lumen) even sells a service they call "Encrypted
> Wavelength Service".  Not sure how one encrypts light
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:25 AM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>
>> For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX
>> point, you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a
>> specific DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with
>> 1310/LX interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between
>> the carrier hotel and your service location.
>>
>> Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you
>> request an actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2
>> transport capable of large MTUs, QinQ, etc.
>>
>> The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a
>> vlan trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of
>> possible things.
>>
>> Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at
>> the right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you
>> wanted happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at
>> both ends.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
>> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and
>>> the IX fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting
>>> to peer at.
>>>
>>> For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit
>>> which terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric.   We don't have any
>>> other presence in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point -
>>> our circuit connects directly to our port on the Exchange.   We're
>>> considering adding a similar link to another exchange point somewhere to
>>> the east or southeast of us.   I haven't looked at the graphs recently, but
>>> it's not uncommon for >50% of our traffic to come from the exchange.   And
>>> yes, we're peered with Hurricane and others there.
>>>
>>> We're also looking at dropping 1U or so of equipment in so we can pick
>>> up some transit as well, but that's a story for a different day about the
>>> joys of providing internet in the less populated parts of the country.
>>>
>>> In your case, it also looks like there are also some peering options at
>>> the datacenters you are currently at as well.   You may want to do some
>>> more research to determine how that might work in your situation.
>>>  PeeringDB is a good resource along with google searches for "peering 100
>>> Taylor" or "peering austin data foundry"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:51 PM  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don’t you have to be there to join?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m in Austin and San Antonio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Aaron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Mike Hammett 
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM
>>>> *To:* Aaron Gould 
>>>> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://bgp.he.net/AS16527
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before
>>>> buying another 100G of transit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>>>

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Warren Kumari

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 8:22 PM Seth Mattinen  wrote:
>
> On 10/13/20 5:10 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:
> >
> > You would do well to add them to your mix and remove one of the other
> > ones. I'd probably remove spectrum and replace with HE. We've only had
> > 30 minutes of downtime total in 5 years so they've been very reliable
> > for us.
>
>
> I removed Spectrum (Charter) and replaced them with HE. The latter's
> value proposition was far superior, plus HE is friendlier to work with,
> and easier to get in touch with a clued individual at HE.

Indeed -- I've found the HE folk amongst the friendliest and most
responsive set of people to work with. If "I'd like to be able to
reach someone and have them actually try and help" is in your decision
process, HE does really well.
This is an incredibly important thing, especially when you are having
a bad day, and it's 3AM and 2 things are already on fire...

W

-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Darin Steffl

Depending on transport costs, it may be cheaper to just use HE at a
datacenter he's already in vs going to a datacenter he's not in currently.

HE has 10G of transit for as low as $900 right now. If 10G of transport
from him to an IX is more than that, there's no financial incentive to peer
instead of buy more transit. Since HE peers with everyone on most IX's, he
is essentially paying HE for full routes plus peering to the same IX he
would go to anyway. It's lower cost and you kill two birds with one stone.
I understand the desire to have your own connection to an IX but having HE
in the mix is basically like peering direct since they're everywhere in
nearly every IX. The other upside is you don't need to waste time trying to
establish bilateral peering sessions with providers who don't peer with the
route servers.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 8:09 AM Michael Spears  wrote:

> Yep. Get on some IXes first. You’d be able to offload a ton of traffic to
> free peering, vs sending everything via the transit you pay for.
>
>
>
> *From:* NANOG  *On Behalf Of *Mike
> Hammett
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2020 8:20 PM
> *To:* Aaron Gould 
> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org
> *Subject:* Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>
>
>
> https://bgp.he.net/AS16527
>
>
>
> You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before
> buying another 100G of transit.
>
>
>
> DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up.
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
>
> *From: *"Aaron Gould" 
> *To: *nanog@nanog.org
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM
> *Subject: *Hurricane Electric AS6939
>
> Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for
> 100gig in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have
> Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.
>
> -Aaron
>
>
>

RE: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Michael Spears

Yep. Get on some IXes first. You’d be able to offload a ton of traffic to free 
peering, vs sending everything via the transit you pay for.

From: NANOG  On Behalf Of Mike 
Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 8:20 PM
To: Aaron Gould 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

https://bgp.he.net/AS16527

You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before buying 
another 100G of transit.

DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

From: "Aaron Gould" mailto:aar...@gvtc.com>>
To: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM
Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent.

-Aaron

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Clayton Zekelman




We had horrible experiences with them a long time 
ago.  Inexplicable packet loss problems, route weirdness, so we dumped them.


A couple of years ago we decided to give them 
another try (I was skeptical), but so far it has been just fine.


At 07:29 PM 13/10/2020, Aaron Gould wrote:
Do yâall like HE for Internet uplink?  Iâm 
thinking about using them for 100gig in 
Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We 
currently have Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.


-Aaron


--

Clayton Zekelman
Managed Network Systems Inc. (MNSi)
3363 Tecumseh Rd. E
Windsor, Ontario
N8W 1H4

tel. 519-985-8410
fax. 519-985-8409

RE: Hurricane Electric AS6939 [EXTERNAL]

2020-10-14 Thread Romeo Czumbil

Good ISP, fast and knowledgeable NOC, pricing is also pretty good.
If you have multiple peers already and want to do traffic 
management/engineering forget it. HE heavily peers with everyone and they don't 
accept communities from their clients.

 
-Original Message-
From: NANOG  On Behalf Of 
Aaron Gould
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:30 PM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939 [EXTERNAL]

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent.

-Aaron

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Saku Ytti

On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 11:11, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

Yes, what you would be ordering is typically a lit L2 circuit.   However,
> my experience is that certain carrier salespeople tend to call anything
> like this a 'wave'.  I have had lots of discussions over the years with
> various salespeople about the difference, and yes, it's pretty much always
> lit L2.   Centurylink (now Lumen) even sells a service they call "Encrypted
> Wavelength Service".  Not sure how one encrypts light
>

To go any distance of significance you don't do pure light, pumping the
light increases signal but it increases noise too, eventually you have to
regen the signal. Most of these active services are frame aware from first
hop to last hop and encryption is on the cards without being in any
meaningful way different to your unencrypted wave.
This is done typically even in short distances, as the signal you give
them, is not the signal they want to put in their network, so they'll use a
transponder to change it to something more applicable.

Passive optical mux is not the common case. But it indeed would not give
opportunity for encryption in technology what we have today (but I do not
understand enough to say it would be fundamentally impossible).

-- 
  ++ytti

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Forrest Christian (List Account)

I guess I should have been a bit clearer.

Yes, what you would be ordering is typically a lit L2 circuit.   However,
my experience is that certain carrier salespeople tend to call anything
like this a 'wave'.  I have had lots of discussions over the years with
various salespeople about the difference, and yes, it's pretty much always
lit L2.   Centurylink (now Lumen) even sells a service they call "Encrypted
Wavelength Service".  Not sure how one encrypts light



On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:25 AM Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX
> point, you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a
> specific DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with
> 1310/LX interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between
> the carrier hotel and your service location.
>
> Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you
> request an actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2
> transport capable of large MTUs, QinQ, etc.
>
> The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a
> vlan trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of
> possible things.
>
> Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at the
> right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you wanted
> happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at both
> ends.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>
>> Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and
>> the IX fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting
>> to peer at.
>>
>> For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit
>> which terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric.   We don't have any
>> other presence in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point -
>> our circuit connects directly to our port on the Exchange.   We're
>> considering adding a similar link to another exchange point somewhere to
>> the east or southeast of us.   I haven't looked at the graphs recently, but
>> it's not uncommon for >50% of our traffic to come from the exchange.   And
>> yes, we're peered with Hurricane and others there.
>>
>> We're also looking at dropping 1U or so of equipment in so we can pick up
>> some transit as well, but that's a story for a different day about the joys
>> of providing internet in the less populated parts of the country.
>>
>> In your case, it also looks like there are also some peering options at
>> the datacenters you are currently at as well.   You may want to do some
>> more research to determine how that might work in your situation.
>>  PeeringDB is a good resource along with google searches for "peering 100
>> Taylor" or "peering austin data foundry"
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:51 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> Don’t you have to be there to join?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m in Austin and San Antonio
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Aaron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Mike Hammett 
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM
>>> *To:* Aaron Gould 
>>> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://bgp.he.net/AS16527
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before
>>> buying another 100G of transit.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *From: *"Aaron Gould" 
>>> *To: *nanog@nanog.org
>>> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM
>>> *Subject: *Hurricane Electric AS6939
>>>
>>> Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for
>>> 100gig in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have
>>> Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.
>>>
>>> -Aaron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Forrest
>>
>

-- 
- Forrest

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Eric Kuhnke

For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX
point, you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a
specific DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with
1310/LX interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between
the carrier hotel and your service location.

Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you
request an actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2
transport capable of large MTUs, QinQ, etc.

The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a vlan
trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of possible
things.

Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at the
right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you wanted
happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at both
ends.






On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and
> the IX fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting
> to peer at.
>
> For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit
> which terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric.   We don't have any
> other presence in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point -
> our circuit connects directly to our port on the Exchange.   We're
> considering adding a similar link to another exchange point somewhere to
> the east or southeast of us.   I haven't looked at the graphs recently, but
> it's not uncommon for >50% of our traffic to come from the exchange.   And
> yes, we're peered with Hurricane and others there.
>
> We're also looking at dropping 1U or so of equipment in so we can pick up
> some transit as well, but that's a story for a different day about the joys
> of providing internet in the less populated parts of the country.
>
> In your case, it also looks like there are also some peering options at
> the datacenters you are currently at as well.   You may want to do some
> more research to determine how that might work in your situation.
>  PeeringDB is a good resource along with google searches for "peering 100
> Taylor" or "peering austin data foundry"
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:51 PM  wrote:
>
>> Don’t you have to be there to join?
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m in Austin and San Antonio
>>
>>
>>
>> -Aaron
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Mike Hammett 
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM
>> *To:* Aaron Gould 
>> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org
>> *Subject:* Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>>
>>
>>
>> https://bgp.he.net/AS16527
>>
>>
>>
>> You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before
>> buying another 100G of transit.
>>
>>
>>
>> DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>> --
>>
>> *From: *"Aaron Gould" 
>> *To: *nanog@nanog.org
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM
>> *Subject: *Hurricane Electric AS6939
>>
>> Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for
>> 100gig in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have
>> Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.
>>
>> -Aaron
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> - Forrest
>

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-14 Thread Forrest Christian (List Account)

Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and
the IX fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting
to peer at.

For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit which
terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric.   We don't have any other
presence in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point - our
circuit connects directly to our port on the Exchange.   We're considering
adding a similar link to another exchange point somewhere to the east or
southeast of us.   I haven't looked at the graphs recently, but it's not
uncommon for >50% of our traffic to come from the exchange.   And yes,
we're peered with Hurricane and others there.

We're also looking at dropping 1U or so of equipment in so we can pick up
some transit as well, but that's a story for a different day about the joys
of providing internet in the less populated parts of the country.

In your case, it also looks like there are also some peering options at the
datacenters you are currently at as well.   You may want to do some more
research to determine how that might work in your situation.   PeeringDB is
a good resource along with google searches for "peering 100 Taylor" or
"peering austin data foundry"

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:51 PM  wrote:

> Don’t you have to be there to join?
>
>
>
> I’m in Austin and San Antonio
>
>
>
> -Aaron
>
>
>
> *From:* Mike Hammett 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM
> *To:* Aaron Gould 
> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org
> *Subject:* Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939
>
>
>
> https://bgp.he.net/AS16527
>
>
>
> You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before
> buying another 100G of transit.
>
>
>
> DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up.
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>
> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>
> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
>
> *From: *"Aaron Gould" 
> *To: *nanog@nanog.org
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM
> *Subject: *Hurricane Electric AS6939
>
> Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for
> 100gig in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have
> Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.
>
> -Aaron
>
>
>

-- 
- Forrest

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread John Kristoff

On Tue, 13 Oct 2020 23:29:55 +
Aaron Gould  wrote:

> Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them
> for 100gig in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently
> have Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.

The price is usually amongst the lowest you'll find.  I've found them
very easy to work with. They have a pretty capable tools development
team in house.  They don't do communities other than RTBH. They are
doing ROV, which I think helped clean up some BGP noise I used to see,
but I've not checked lately.  They also know a thing or two about IPv6,
plus carry traffic for all those IPv6 tunnel broker setups and probably
at least if not more of the 6to4 traffic for whatever is left of that
if it matters to you (and I might argue you might want to consider not
accepting the 6to4 associated prefixes nor carry that traffic). Make
sure you maintain another way to get to Cogent-only prefixes.

John

RE: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread aaron1

Don’t you have to be there to join?

 

I’m in Austin and San Antonio

 

-Aaron

 

From: Mike Hammett  
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM
To: Aaron Gould 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

 

https://bgp.he.net/AS16527

 

You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before buying 
another 100G of transit.

 

DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up.

 



-
Mike Hammett
 <http://www.ics-il.com/> Intelligent Computing Solutions
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<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>  
<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> 
 <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Midwest Internet Exchange
 <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>  
<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> 
 <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> The Brothers WISP
 <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>  
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> 

  _  

From: "Aaron Gould" mailto:aar...@gvtc.com> >
To: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM
Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent.

-Aaron

RE: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread aaron1

I have to be in Dallas for that right?

 

I’m in Austin (Data Foundry) and San Antonio (100 Taylor)

 

-Aaron

 

From: Ryan Hamel  
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:34 PM
To: Aaron Gould 
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

 

You would get better peering from Equinix IX, which includes free HE IPv4 
Peering + IPv6 Transit

 

Ryan

On Oct 13 2020, at 4:29 pm, Aaron Gould mailto:aar...@gvtc.com> > wrote:

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent.

 

-Aaron

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread craig washington

Side note, they don’t support any traffic engineer aside from prepends but no 
complaints Besides that.



On Oct 13, 2020, at 8:25 PM, Mike Hammett 
mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote:

https://bgp.he.net/AS16527

You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before buying 
another 100G of transit.

DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]

From: "Aaron Gould" mailto:aar...@gvtc.com>>
To: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM
Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent.

-Aaron

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread Mike Hammett

https://bgp.he.net/AS16527 


You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before buying 
another 100G of transit. 


DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

- Original Message -

From: "Aaron Gould"  
To: nanog@nanog.org 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM 
Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939 

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent. 

-Aaron

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread Seth Mattinen


On 10/13/20 5:10 PM, Darin Steffl wrote:


You would do well to add them to your mix and remove one of the other 
ones. I'd probably remove spectrum and replace with HE. We've only had 
30 minutes of downtime total in 5 years so they've been very reliable 
for us.



I removed Spectrum (Charter) and replaced them with HE. The latter's 
value proposition was far superior, plus HE is friendlier to work with, 
and easier to get in touch with a clued individual at HE.

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread Darin Steffl

In Minnesota, hurricane has the lowest latency and most routes out of our
state. I can reach most destinations with lower latency than any other
carrier I've tested.

Their NOC is great and easy to reach. Billing is perfect and predictable
with no hidden fees or surcharges in the fine print. And their pricing is
some of the best out there.

They peer with anyone who wants to peer and they're on more IX's than any
other provider.

You would do well to add them to your mix and remove one of the other ones.
I'd probably remove spectrum and replace with HE. We've only had 30 minutes
of downtime total in 5 years so they've been very reliable for us.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020, 7:01 PM Brandon Martin 
wrote:

> On 10/13/20 7:29 PM, Aaron Gould wrote:
> > Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for
> 100gig in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have
> Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.
>
> They're a good bulk/budget option in a blend.  A decent number of
> content hosts are keen to source traffic into them.  I would be loathe
> to be single-homed to them, but even then they're not the worst option
> in that department.
>
> If you've already got Telia, Spectrum, and Cogent, 6939 is probably a
> great addition to your blend.
>
> They'll probably want a 5yr contract out of you to get their best (and
> headline per-Mbps) rate.  Evaluate carefully what position that puts you
> in based on the continually dropping cost of wholesale transit and bulk
> interconnect opportunities.  You may prefer a shorter contract term at
> slightly higher rates.
>
> As others said, if you don't need full routes from them, they have a
> VERY open peering policy, and that 100G port might be better suited to a
> local IX where you can pick them up along with a bunch of other content
> networks.
> --
> Brandon Martin
>

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread Brandon Martin


On 10/13/20 7:29 PM, Aaron Gould wrote:

Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink?  I’m thinking about using them for 100gig 
in Texas.  It would be for my eyeballs ISP.  We currently have Spectrum, Telia 
and Cogent.


They're a good bulk/budget option in a blend.  A decent number of 
content hosts are keen to source traffic into them.  I would be loathe 
to be single-homed to them, but even then they're not the worst option 
in that department.


If you've already got Telia, Spectrum, and Cogent, 6939 is probably a 
great addition to your blend.


They'll probably want a 5yr contract out of you to get their best (and 
headline per-Mbps) rate.  Evaluate carefully what position that puts you 
in based on the continually dropping cost of wholesale transit and bulk 
interconnect opportunities.  You may prefer a shorter contract term at 
slightly higher rates.


As others said, if you don't need full routes from them, they have a 
VERY open peering policy, and that 100G port might be better suited to a 
local IX where you can pick them up along with a bunch of other content 
networks.

--
Brandon Martin

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread TJ Trout

sounds like he needs full routes..

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 4:36 PM Ryan Hamel  wrote:

> You would get better peering from Equinix IX, which includes free HE IPv4
> Peering + IPv6 Transit
>
> Ryan
> On Oct 13 2020, at 4:29 pm, Aaron Gould  wrote:
>
> Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for
> 100gig in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have
> Spectrum, Telia and Cogent.
>
> -Aaron
>
>

Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939

2020-10-13 Thread Ryan Hamel

You would get better peering from Equinix IX, which includes free HE IPv4 
Peering + IPv6 Transit

Ryan
On Oct 13 2020, at 4:29 pm, Aaron Gould  wrote:
> Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for 
> 100gig in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have Spectrum, 
> Telia and Cogent.
>
> -Aaron

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