The value of the stocks displayed on the tubes has gone up even more than
the tubes themselves :)
On Monday, May 27, 2024 at 10:31:55 AM UTC-7 Leroy Jones wrote:
> Yes. Exactly! Last night there was a flakey problem with the 15-bit
> parallel data bus that connects to all of the tube
history is hard to find! I think they were on the order of $25 each in the
early 2000s. Although the inflation happened pretty regularly.
I was looking at some old posts from 2002, folks were discussing the
outrageous price of $800 for a box of 100 ZM-1040 tubes :)
On Saturday, May 25, 2024
Huhthere is a Digital Museum of Plugs and Sockets
https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/PowerCord1.html
On Friday, April 5, 2024 at 6:08:31 PM UTC-7 Nick Andrews wrote:
> If you want a permanently attached cord, you could cut the rectangular
> end off an IEC cord and install it with the
70 years, so far
On Friday, April 5, 2024 at 6:45:47 PM UTC-7 Jasper nagle wrote:
> i picked 9 of these up for $90 $10 a pcs for A clock project, and iv'e
> tried searching all the data sheets about them the most i can find is one
> stating long life, but long life in 1955 i would assume
Pictures of what you are talking about are always helpful. I can't quite
imagine what it might be.
On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 6:30:39 AM UTC-7 Dekatron42 wrote:
> I've been trying to find the black woven tape used to tape connectors to
> each other to keep them connected and it is also
Thank you for the pictures. It's a fascinating device!
On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 5:36:09 AM UTC-7 Magnedyne wrote:
> I'll probably leave it as is. I find the curiosity/historical aspect to be
> more interesting and important than having something which has a use. It's
> just like
really neat! it would be interesting to see a close up pic of the circuit
board, so we could read the numbers on the components, and see when it was
made
On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:55:39 AM UTC-7 Magnedyne wrote:
> I have opened it up and removed all of the crumbling foam it was
He's been pretty busy...but he's doing fine.
On Wednesday, November 8, 2023 at 9:39:21 AM UTC-7 Kevin A. wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Just reaching out to see if anyone has been in contact with David the past
> few months. I reached out to him mid-June of this year for a repair on my
> nixie round
I recognize a corner of a BC-348Q.
On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 6:54:48 PM UTC-7 Audrey wrote:
> It definitely isnt accurate since they're IN-12 or IN-14
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 9:48 PM Nicholas Stock wrote:
>
>> [image: image.jpeg]
>>
>> Certainly look like nixies, but that would be
when it was in the corvair
https://hackaday.com/2022/02/18/retro-future-nixie-corvair-instrument-panel/
On Saturday, May 13, 2023 at 1:04:36 PM UTC-7 Dekatron42 wrote:
> Photos please! I absolutely love the idea!!
>
> I wish I owned a PV544 (or a PV444 with split windows).
>
> /Martin
>
>
that 2236 is so much nicer than my 2215, you really ought to fix it :)
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 9:04:16 PM UTC-7 gregebert wrote:
> I'm really happy with my HP16500A, and they are reasonably priced if you
> shop around. About 10 years ago I got mine with two dual-channel cards
>
I doubt that better glasses will help a lot, the image is so small.
Resizing it gives you the info that is available in the image, which should
be enough to get you what you need to know. If you have the part in hand,
you can measure the dimensions that are unclear?
On Friday, March 31, 2023
Are there any clues on the other side of the circuit board? lettering of
any kind?
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:09:21 PM UTC-7 Nicholas Stock wrote:
> Interesting... individual transistors on each cathode and a voltage
> multiplier for the HV?? I thought I knew about most of the boards out
I expect the assembled ones will probably be sold out sometime today also,
if the past is any indication of the future. I have a beta, so I'm all set.
Good luck! it's a neat clock.
On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 5:22:21 AM UTC-7 Wo Tu wrote:
> No kits available ?! Only assembled !
>
>
I don't get the digest, I go to the internets with my browser and go to
https://groups.google.com/g/neonixie-l to view the messages. Then it's
pretty easy to reply to a single message.
On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 2:13:26 AM UTC-7 genericdispo...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
> I’m about to pull
looks like 4017 cmos decade counters
On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 9:19:02 PM UTC-7 LB wrote:
> It looks like it’s a 32.768 kHz crystal and a series of frequency
> dividers. (maybe +/- a couple minutes per year?) I imagine (at a basic
> level) it’s a classic TTL clock in SMD form.
>
> On
It says DT-1704C right on it
On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 4:26:09 PM UTC-7 tntm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Attached some photos and a video.
> I won this on ebay a few days ago, the seller said that it was NIB but
> that the box was degraded to the point where the part number could not be
Some people like to put all the risk onto the buyer. I tend to not deal
with people like that.
On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 3:37:15 PM UTC-7 tntm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Yeah. It's silly to sell them all as one lot, and even sillier to not
> figuring out how to test them for that
though that isn't obvious from my photo). Oddly, ebay
> seems to find similar ones but I can't see anything unique in the name that
> specifies the form.
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 2:36 PM J Forbes wrote:
>
>> I spent only a little time looking. This is the type of thing you're
I spent only a little time looking. This is the type of thing you're
looking for?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/323737493500?
I don't suggest buying this one, but it might lead you to what you want?
On Sunday, July 24, 2022 at 5:53:05 AM UTC-7 artgod...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> I recently
USB to serial port adapters exist. Some of them actually work, so check
reviews before getting one.
On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 8:00:33 PM UTC-7 Terry S wrote:
> Yeah that would be great if I had a way to talk to the puck. PCs don't
> have serial ports any more.
>
> On Thursday, July 14,
just curious, does it have date codes on any of the ICs?
On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 3:12:26 AM UTC-7 mikeselectricstuff wrote:
> I just listed this Burroughs self-scan plasma display
>
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203867355983?hash=item2f7770fb4f:g:qcEAAOSwbIRiLiGF
>
--
You received this
A screen shot of part of David's Cathode Corner page twenty years ago. I
remember when he paid $800 for a box of 100 ZM1040s. Man that was a lot of
money! :)
On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 4:28:37 PM UTC-7 Terry Bowman wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2022, at 2:39 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
>
> That's
It's not this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgcobPmavlw
is it? Hard to tell from your pictures, and the video, not showing the same
parts of the clock, with decent resolution.
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 5:00:13 AM UTC-7 Bill Notfaded wrote:
> [image: s-l400 (1) (5).jpg]
> I'm
It was just getting back at you for not cropping and resizing the images to
a reasonable size :)
I always use the web interface rather than email to post things to google
groups, and it doesn't seem to have any problems like that. Huh.
On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 7:25:01 AM UTC-7 joenixie
332 is the number on them.
On Wednesday, October 27, 2021 at 8:18:07 PM UTC-7 martin martin wrote:
> I found 7 of these while cleaning a friends garage. I can't make out the
> part number but they are Sperry neon planar seven segment displays. About
> 1/2" tall.
>
> I use the larger
David's on a trip right now, he might answer when he gets back?
On Monday, October 18, 2021 at 4:53:06 PM UTC-7 GEK wrote:
> I've been unsuccessful in reaching David Forbes, so thought I would ask
> the group for help.
>
> My SC200C has been "unhealthy" for a while now, and I'm trying to get
Wow, neat find!
I like how the seller assumes those neon lights for the time zone are LEDs
:)
On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 6:01:25 AM UTC-7 Terry S wrote:
> I've been watching these for years on ebay. Finally snagged one last night
> -- I hope I didn't beat out one of you with my last
heh...I get to cheat on the what the display areas are for, because I know
a secret about the car (it used to be mine, after all). Oil pressure,
engine temperature (using a thermocouple in one head), RPM, MPH, battery
voltage, and odometer. But this is still just a guess. David didn't tell me.
I expect it was to keep the wires short, on that selector switch...pulse
stuff like this is kind of picky about wire lengths and crosstalk.
On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 8:40:14 PM UTC-7 gregebert wrote:
> Anyone notice the flexible shaft from one of the front panel controls ?? I
> never could
I'm glad someone is playing with one in original condition...I ended up
cutting up one of mine to make a digital clock, all vacuum tube operated. I
also recently got rid of the last one I had that still was mostly original,
worked last time I tried it.
you're in the UK?
http://www.debook.com/Bulbs/ediswan.htm
On Sunday, June 20, 2021 at 4:57:20 PM UTC-7 Zedsquared wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> I was recently given a couple of interesting neon bulbs in GLS bayonet
> format, I’ve attached pictures. I wonder if anyone can tell me what these
> would
I don't have any Amazon devices, because I don't want to share personal
info like that, with Amazon. I'd be OK sharing it with my neighbors, though.
On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:17 AM UTC-7 Jon D. wrote:
>
> Alexa users beware...
>
> OPT OUT !!! Amazon devices to automatically share your
ting... Thank you, I've never seen that before. Into the
> rabbit hole
>
> On Fri, 28 May 2021, 1:17 p.m. J Forbes, wrote:
>
>> A start here...but there is lots more if you delve deep into the old
>> posts on this group.
>>
>> https://www.oocities.org/tokyo
A start here...but there is lots more if you delve deep into the old posts
on this group.
https://www.oocities.org/tokyo/8908/fourletterword/index.html
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:54:48 PM UTC-7 celephicus wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I am doing a Hackaday project on my enormous FLW build, and I
I dind't design the logic myself, I used a design from the TTL applications
book by Texas Instruments. But the clock is still around, twenty years
later. I don't leave it running, it's kind of scary.
http://selectric.org/nixie/index.html
and scroll down to the bottom of the page
On Friday,
Dalibor makes functional artthe segment displays just are not pretty,
in a way the normal Nixie tube is. So I could understand if he didn't
pursue this.
On Monday, April 26, 2021 at 10:30:34 PM UTC-7 tntm...@gmail.com wrote:
> I've been thinking a lot about how Dalibor should do that.
Is anyone working on one? has anyone made one work? or not done so well at
it, and learned something?
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did you see this?
http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/pdf/gc1092d_schematic.pdf
On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 3:35:14 PM UTC-7 N9KTW wrote:
> Well I found another clock to work on, using SP352 displays It is
> marked DIGITAL CONCEPTS CORP, EC102 electronic calendar clock.
>
> It uses 3
Of course I dohopefully for only a short time. I have 4 of them, plus 3
monitors. All in the garage waiting for the big moving sale.
On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 3:33:28 PM UTC-7 gregebert wrote:
> Does anyone still have a functioning TV with a CRT in it ?
--
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from the listing: " Amazing handmade project "
yes, it is hand made. Around 1985, or so, by the date codes on the ICs.
On Saturday, October 10, 2020 at 9:34:51 AM UTC-7 Pramanicin wrote:
> Ha halooking at it more closely, it does look like it's a home job
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On
Old cars had really dirty power. Modern cars are better. But still, you
might want to put a scope on the power socket and drive around and see what
you get.
When I worked at IC desing center, old automotive engeneer said me that
> scheme must be withstand Power surges 100V.
>
>
--
You
Looks like the ZM1030, I have a couple of them. I had an idea to use them
for the all tube digital clock (which currently uses "thermometer" display,
it's built from an old Beckman counter), but I don't have the brain power
to figure out how to do it.
On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 6:09:02
I see it too. I will just get used to it, because I expect we will all be
forced into it eventually.
On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 5:10:03 AM UTC-7 orange_glow_fan wrote:
>
> Did anyone get migrated to the 'New Groups' page format? Not sure if I
> caused it or Google just decided I would
Just because you aren't using those cathodes, doesn't mean some future
nixieist won't want them to work. I'm sure that when these tubes were made,
no one was very concerned about what we'd be doing with them in the 2020s.
So, we might want to think about what someone will be doing with them in
Seller didn't even mention that it looks like a glass fuse. That's the
neatest part of it, I think
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Is this the first tube made recently in China, that we know of? I admit to
not keeping track...
On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 11:32:29 AM UTC-7, gregebert wrote:
>
> Just saw this newly manufactured nixie posted on Ebay (I have no
> affiliation with the seller):
>
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this is a different type of tube. Look close.
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 12:29:12 PM UTC-7, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> Nigel has already given you a link that shows this type of tube. They are
> 7-segment Nixie tubes. Here are pictures of the J4851 that I own.
>
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If you load the image at full resolution, you can easily see that each
segment is a piece of wire bent into a sort of loop, that sits inside a
slot. It's a neon device. The info that it takes a lot of voltage and low
current makes sense to me.
Neat display, I had not seen them before.
--
>
>
> Your thoughts?
>
I have a similar era calculator, just a bit earlier I think, with a
panaplex type display. It does not do floating point arithmetic, so I am
kind of lost with it (I forgot how to manage the decimal point, over the
decades). It's sitting on the floor of my shop, by the
It sure would be nice to buy quality sockets for a dollar or less each!
On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 11:22:13 AM UTC-7, nixiebunny wrote:
>
> Those prices were pretty high, considering the average wage of $3/hour
> then.
> I'm surprised that they don't list the 8570 or similar tubes. Radio
Fine steel wool should work, also. It's not really an abrasive, either. I
use it on old cars to get grunge off of glass and chrome and stainless
parts.
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InterestingI have a mechanical Comptometer (it's about 100 years old),
it has a similar keyboard layout, and little wheels to display the numbers.
Mine will add, and do one's compliment subtraction, but none of that silly
multiply or divide stuff. Progress!
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I love the slot head screws! :)
> The only very small thing i dislike is the screws :D I would have put torx
> or allen screws there ;)
>
>
So...no USB-C connector available? That seems to me to be the only thing
about the Cathode Corner watch you copied that's a bit iffy to me.
--
You
there are cyrillic keyboards online, you can use to type the text, then use
a translator to translate to the nearest English equivalent.
WAIVERSAM HEAT METER
is what it says at the top, sort of
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I know my hobbies are getting out of control, when I have to start thinking
about insuring them!
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when are you sending me my award?
I still have this, and it still works, for a while.
http://selectric.org/tubeclock/index.html
I also have a mostly complete earlier 5510C Beckman counter, and a bunch of
extra modules.
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 10:20:30 PM UTC-7, gregebert wrote:
>
>
>
It appears that it may have black paint covering the lower portion of the
front, hiding the anodes? I have an NOS SP=353 sitting here, it appears to
be 3/4 of what you have. There is no black band across the bottom, and the
name and part number are etched into the glass at the lower left
Go see it. Lots of nixies. From 50 years ago, of course.
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To post to this
I'm glad I could help.
Looks like you've got a lot more help on here, too. Neat to see this
happen :)
On Monday, February 25, 2019 at 7:08:02 AM UTC-7, Sgitheach wrote:
>
> Now you've told me "water side" I've found a lot of products. Thanks!
>
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Water Slide decals were used in the old days for most things like this. The
ones you can make using a printer do not look like the original silk
screened decals, though. I suppose many folks won't notice the difference,
but I sure do.
But it might be better than nothing?
On Monday, February
Another way to build stuff that is a bit more permanent, but not as
involved as making a printed circuit board, is to use old fashioned
breadboard. You can make changes, although it requires the use of a
soldering iron (or wire wrap tool, as this one has wire wrap sockets for
the ICs) I built
...and here's a neat look at how nixiebunny got that Nixie watch working,
almost 20 years ago.
http://www.cathodecorner.com/nixiewatch/watchhist/watchhist.html
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I haven't been shocked by high voltage for a few decades, as far as I can
recall. I got zapped by a car ignition system when I was young, a few
times, and have since learned how to avoid that--even though I regularly
work on older cars. When we were young and playing with TV sets, I recall
my
And we found another gas station with working Panaplex equipped Gilbarco
pumps, in Kingman AZ, and of course got fuel there. Also found an abandoned
station in New Mexico with several of the pumps in various states of
vandalism/parts theft. Several displays were still there, and available for
I was cleaning up some stuff in my shop and came across a Unitrex 1200
calculator, which has been hiding there for quite a while. google it to see
images of similar ones. It appears to have been made in 1972, and I don't
have the power cord for it, although I could with a little effort make
Yuriy should not run his email list in a way that requires opt-out. Rather,
he should ask on the neonixie list if anyone is interested in receiving his
emails, and only send emails to those who say they want to receive them. In
other words, he should have an opt-in list.
On Wednesday,
I guess I'm old, too. I think brown phenolic, with the traces drawn with an
etch resist pen, and none of the holes are in quite the right places,
because it was drilled by hand.
http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/catalogs/1972-b/pages/098.jpg
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Old member here...Jim Forbes, in Arizona, USA.
I joined a long time ago. My brother got me interested in Nixies again, in
the early 2000s. when he started making clocks and his Nixie watch. (David
runs Cathode Corner)
I made a clock way back then, http://selectric.org/nixie/index.html and
I'm interested...get them working!
On Thursday, August 30, 2018 at 12:51:27 PM UTC-7, nixiebunny wrote:
>
> I'm doing the same thing! For my 1940 LaSalle, but generally adaptable. My
> friend Tom Jennings has made a car computer for his Rambler roadster, and
> knows how to process the sender
there are so many ways to do it. The best way is to design the watch and
the case at the same time, and have the case made using CNC machining
process.
I had a prototype Nixie watch board that I needed to make a case for, so I
just bent up and soldered together some copper, and bingo,
looks like all I have is a 5U4GB in a Motorola box, but it's a used Zenith
tube. The empty box would be easier to mail, eh?
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it looks more like an intel chip.
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"No results containing all your search terms were found."
It's not in the google. Congratulations, it's not easy to find something in
real life, that is not in the google.
Are there date codes on the chips? that would tell you when it's from,
possibly. Or lettering on the circuit board?
Neat
They were part of the test equipment that my dad used at work, occasionally
we would visit his work. Didn't think much of it when I was young in the
1960s. although the stuff looked really neat. Some time in the 1980s, I got
a used Bell & Howell (Heathkit) DVM with three Nixies, used it very
" It will be a Drivers style watch of course."
that pesky R in Divers.
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from the religious wars thread...apparently several of us are involved with
robotics teams. What a shock.
A picture I took at a competition a few years ago. This is David, my
brother, who kind of got team 4183 going. Yes, his sponsorship shows
(Cathode Corner, maker of the hottest selling
hehI still mentor team 1726. I've been doing it since my oldest son got
me involved in 2006. And all three of them are now mentoring other teams.
sorry for the diversion.
On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 11:00:17 AM UTC-7, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
>
> I used to mentor my eldest son's
MCUs? Libraries? And I felt really bad about using a semiconductor
rectifier in my neon light, all tube digital clock (non-nixie).
http://selectric.org/tubeclock/clock2018.jpg Yet I had no qualms about
using old TTL chips in my cigar box clock.
http://selectric.org/nixie/cigar2.jpg
As far as
Television sets were a major use of vacuum tubes from the late 1940s till
the mid 1970s. They are quite tricky to build, but I've found several old
ones to play with, over the years.
Old tube based test equipment is also interesting, I even made a sort of
functional clock using an old
ul when
> it comes to working with wood.
>
> @J Forbes: The seller had actually put a large "pillow" filled with foam
> peanuts inside the case of the radio but, most likely, when eBay/Pitney
> Bowes repackaged the item in their sorting center in Erlanger, they
The description of the damage, and the picture, both make it look to me
like this is an item that needed extra care to get it ready for shipment.
It probably was not obvious to the seller that the radio either had a basic
structural design flaw, or else was missing fasteners. The heavy speaker
Think about what the tubes were used for, back then. They often replaced an
analog meter. When using equipment with different scales, or multipliers,
it was up to the user to select the appropriate range for the measurement,
then read the meter or tube display and "do the math" himself, to
interesting, the columns are pretty close together.
I made a clock from a Beckman counter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM9TW6GcCQE
http://selectric.org/tubeclock/index.html
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Beautiful! This looks like it needs a video on youtube
On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 4:39:51 AM UTC-7, Sgitheach wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> Here's two pictures of a nixie/trigger tube clock built by Massimo Capra
> in Barcelona. Still to have a clear acrylic cover fitted over.
>
>
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There was one more left when I picked one up yesterday. It's kind of gold
color. I got the dark blue one. It's a neat watch! I'm still getting used
to how small it is...
Jim
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I like to hear this! For fun, here are a couple pictures of the first Scope
Clock I saw, in November 2000. One with flash, one without. Taken with my
first digital camera, back when they were a kind of new thing.
http://selectric.org/16main/scope2.jpg
http://selectric.org/16main/scope1.jpg
Thanks for the link! it's not totally OT...there's a Dekatron in the video
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On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 7:37:24 AM UTC-7, gregebert wrote:
>
>
> I'm attaching a product brief from 1956 that I found online. Enjoy.
>
neat! That reminds me...I also have one of those 1950s looking berkely
counters. It's actually a 5510C Universal Counter and Timer. This is one
I made this clock around 2002, and made the video around 2008.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM9TW6GcCQE
http://selectric.org/tubeclock/index.html
I probably need to update the web page! But anyways, the clock quit working
not long after I made the video, and has just sat doing nothing. For
The only part of the sender that would need to be replaced, is the
resistor. They are interchangeable, as long as you get a replacement that
is not too many years away from the original. I've done the opposite a few
times, swapping an early resistor onto a newer sender. The resistor is part
of
interesting...I've had to do the opposite, when I put a later tank in an
older truck. Sounds like you're using a newer gauge in an older GM vehicle.
I would find a sending unit from a late 60s vehicle, and swap the resistor
onto the original sending unit. It's not very difficult.
Jim
--
You
The original gauge, for use with the 30 ohm sender (from a 57 Chevy) has a
resistance from sender wire to ground of 200 ohms, and from sender to power
of 50 ohms.
On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 3:49:44 PM UTC-7, jrehwin wrote:
Unfortunately, without knowing the gauge resistance it's supposed
Two electromagnets.
On Tuesday, November 19, 2013 9:25:57 PM UTC-7, jrehwin wrote:
Anybody know what's in the 3-wire gauges?
- John
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Looks good! Old computers are fun, they still do what they used to do when
they cost a lot, but now they're cheap and we can discuss them on the
internet
I cheated on my vintage computer nixie clockI used one of David's old
kits, and just stuck it into an early IBM case (which also
One way we used to test automotive ignition systems is to hold a neon bulb
(such as an NE-2) next to the spark plug wire, and see if the bulb glows.
Jim
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I have the 775 schematic, not the 705. it's on my web page as noted above.
It's been ten years...I forgot most of the little bit I knew about them.
Jim
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Yeah, it's fun.I did one several years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ZpZBeox2U
On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 4:51:18 PM UTC-7, coggs wrote:
Looks like a productive area of research..
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/entry.php?380-Camcorder-CRT-s-aren-t-rocket-science
On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 10:24:43 AM UTC-7, Lucky wrote:
Regardless, on viewing amount/times, as I understand it you have a tilt
sensor to enable the tubes at a set angle but will not the tubes also
ignite during normal everyday wearing? For instance my arm right now as I
type is
THis doesn't seem to reflect reality.at least the reality of myself and
the others I know who own David's nixie watches.
On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 2:34:10 PM UTC-7, Michel wrote:
I am quite sure that if you wear a normal
watch you check the time much more frequent than if you need
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