Re: [neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

[Kiran Otter]

When I built a new clock 3 years ago, I didn't keep the tubes in the same 
positions. However, there was one that was showing signs of poisoning and I 
swapped it with the left most tube at the time.  Otherwise, they haven't 
moved for 3 years.

Kiran

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 5:47:29 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
> The '4' in the unit-hours position I saw in the video should not have been 
> poisoned during normal operation, because all 10 cathodes will get 
> exercised.
> Could this tube have been in a different position, such as the 'tens 
> hours', and been poisoned that way ?
>
> What I'm wondering is if this is normal 'wear-and-tear' , or a small leak, 
> rather than classic cathode poisoning (contamination of a seldom/never-used 
> cathode from other cathodes that are used).
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

[gregebert]

The '4' in the unit-hours position I saw in the video should not have been 
poisoned during normal operation, because all 10 cathodes will get 
exercised.
Could this tube have been in a different position, such as the 'tens 
hours', and been poisoned that way ?

What I'm wondering is if this is normal 'wear-and-tear' , or a small leak, 
rather than classic cathode poisoning (contamination of a seldom/never-used 
cathode from other cathodes that are used).

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

[Kiran Otter]

Oh btw, the tubes had about 16K hours on them 3 years ago.  In the new 
clock they're on for 15 hours a day, for 3 years.. is another 16K hours, so 
they have about 32K hours on them.

Kiran

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 1:58:51 PM UTC-4, Kiran Otter wrote:
>
> While I don't mind the slot-machine effect, I don't know how effective it 
> is.  My tubes only had slight poisoning when I built the Spectrum 18 clock 
> 3 years ago, and now several have developed problems.  Here's a video 
> .  I slowed it 
> down 50%.  The two left tubes are '82.. the others are 82-83.
>
> I intend to get one of Marci's testers in hopes of healing them.
>
> Kiran
>
> On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-5, Pramanicin wrote:
>>
>> I agree Keith, it’s eye candy so I quite like the slot machine effects 
>> and similar. You don’t need it every other minute, once every ten minutes 
>> or so seems fine to me.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 09:50, 'Spirit' via neonixie-l <
>> neoni...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to design a clock that would sit under my main monitor, and so I 
>> didn't want it to be distracting while still maintaining good tube life. I 
>> prefer my neon to be calm :)
>> The slot machine effect is still perfectly valid for those that don't 
>> mind having the clock flash obnoxiously every few minutes.
>>
>> On Thursday, 8 March 2018 19:55:31 UTC+3, Keith Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> Am I the only one who thinks the slot machine effect is much nicer to 
>>> see than this alternative? However, I am on-board if this actually helps 
>>> longevity. 
>>> The slot machine effect is usually what gets non-nixie folks excited 
>>> about the display. It's the "blinky-lights gets the attention" effect.  :-) 
>>>
>> -- 
>>
>>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

[Kiran Otter]

While I don't mind the slot-machine effect, I don't know how effective it 
is.  My tubes only had slight poisoning when I built the Spectrum 18 clock 
3 years ago, and now several have developed problems.  Here's a video 
.  I slowed it 
down 50%.  The two left tubes are '82.. the others are 82-83.

I intend to get one of Marci's testers in hopes of healing them.

Kiran

On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-5, Pramanicin wrote:
>
> I agree Keith, it’s eye candy so I quite like the slot machine effects and 
> similar. You don’t need it every other minute, once every ten minutes or so 
> seems fine to me.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 8, 2018, at 09:50, 'Spirit' via neonixie-l <
> neoni...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
> I wanted to design a clock that would sit under my main monitor, and so I 
> didn't want it to be distracting while still maintaining good tube life. I 
> prefer my neon to be calm :)
> The slot machine effect is still perfectly valid for those that don't mind 
> having the clock flash obnoxiously every few minutes.
>
> On Thursday, 8 March 2018 19:55:31 UTC+3, Keith Moore wrote:
>>
>> Am I the only one who thinks the slot machine effect is much nicer to see 
>> than this alternative? However, I am on-board if this actually helps 
>> longevity. 
>> The slot machine effect is usually what gets non-nixie folks excited 
>> about the display. It's the "blinky-lights gets the attention" effect.  :-) 
>>
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>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

[Nicholas Stock]

I agree Keith, it’s eye candy so I quite like the slot machine effects and 
similar. You don’t need it every other minute, once every ten minutes or so 
seems fine to me.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 09:50, 'Spirit' via neonixie-l 
>  wrote:
> 
> I wanted to design a clock that would sit under my main monitor, and so I 
> didn't want it to be distracting while still maintaining good tube life. I 
> prefer my neon to be calm :)
> The slot machine effect is still perfectly valid for those that don't mind 
> having the clock flash obnoxiously every few minutes.
> 
>> On Thursday, 8 March 2018 19:55:31 UTC+3, Keith Moore wrote:
>> Am I the only one who thinks the slot machine effect is much nicer to see 
>> than this alternative? However, I am on-board if this actually helps 
>> longevity. 
>> The slot machine effect is usually what gets non-nixie folks excited about 
>> the display. It's the "blinky-lights gets the attention" effect.  :-) 
> 
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[neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

['Spirit' via neonixie-l]

I wanted to design a clock that would sit under my main monitor, and so I 
didn't want it to be distracting while still maintaining good tube life. I 
prefer my neon to be calm :)
The slot machine effect is still perfectly valid for those that don't mind 
having the clock flash obnoxiously every few minutes.

On Thursday, 8 March 2018 19:55:31 UTC+3, Keith Moore wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who thinks the slot machine effect is much nicer to see 
> than this alternative? However, I am on-board if this actually helps 
> longevity. 
> The slot machine effect is usually what gets non-nixie folks excited about 
> the display. It's the "blinky-lights gets the attention" effect.  :-) 
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

[Keith Moore]

Am I the only one who thinks the slot machine effect is much nicer to see 
than this alternative? However, I am on-board if this actually helps 
longevity. 
The slot machine effect is usually what gets non-nixie folks excited about 
the display. It's the "blinky-lights gets the attention" effect.  :-) 
 


On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 11:48:24 AM UTC-5, Spirit wrote:
>
> While designing my own clock, I decided to investigate the cathode 
> poisoning prevention methods utilized by most clocks, and I discovered that 
> there's room to improve and experiment.
> Here's a short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skBwGGQ58MI
> If you can't or don't want to watch: Switching between cathodes with a 
> delay of 1-2 milliseconds is going to provide the same cleaning effect as 
> the "slot machine", except without the extreme flicker which may be 
> annoying to some.
>
> As for my design - it's two HV5522s in the PLCC package connected to an 
> ESP8266(for driving the HV5522s the 3v3 signals are shifted to 5 - that 
> works up to a supply of 12.9V) and Yan's NCH6100HV boost board.
>
> It would be interesting to see what everyone here thinks.
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

['Spirit' via neonixie-l]

Well, my current setup does not allow to vary the drive current, as that 
would require a custom HV supply capable of rapidly switching between 
regular operation(say, 170V), and "extreme" mode, at maybe 220-260V.
By all means, try it out. It could work, but I have no predictions on the 
outcome besides "the tube will get hot".

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RE: [neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

[Jeff Walton]

Still wondering if the CPP process can also be used to clean a contaminated 
tube over time as opposed to just trying to prevent poisoning.  I’m wondering 
about applying a higher power pulse for a short duty cycle so that the CPP goes 
a little beyond normal operation.   A cathode can poison even when the tube is 
in storage due to impurities in the gas and all cathodes are contaminated in 
normal operation. Regular CPP process assumes that normal operation of the 
cathode will drive off any impurities and we all know that in the real world 
even at nominal currents, cathodes still get contaminated even when we think 
that all of the digits are being operated.  

 

In the case of a high speed CPP process, a short, higher current pulse of short 
duration may be able to clean a mild buildup on the cathode surface.  Again, 
all cathodes are contaminated by the operation of another “ON” cathode.  Your 
process does offer an opportunity to sequentially hit each cathode with a pulse 
that is different than normal operation and may provide a cumulative effect 
over time to actually clean cathodes without the need for long-term and 
sustained overdriving of a single cathode.  It potentially could be done 
without a significant impact on the useful life of a tube in normal operation.  
Rather than thinking of it as prevention, your technique might offer a way to 
mildly clean and prevent.  It actually does look interesting in the video…

 

Jeff

 

 

From: 'Spirit's lab' via neonixie-l [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 1:19 PM
To: neonixie-l
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode 
poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

 

@Jeff The heating should only be enough to prevent cathode poisoning starting 
with a healthy(ideally new) tube. I seriously doubt it would do anything to fix 
already existing cathode poisoning. It's driven using the same, standard 
current(4-6mA for an IN-18) for normal operation.

To fix existing cathode poisoning you do indeed have to seriously overdrive the 
tube and keep every cathode needed on, sequentially.

 

@Allen I made this with the intent of running it more often - a few seconds 
every 5, 10, maybe 15 minutes. If cycling on every digit change, it could be 
quite distracting, because the perceived brightness of the tube increases 
dramatically, and it would just keep flashing. Doing it every 30 to 60 seconds 
should be about the minimum time period acceptable, but it really depends on 
your tastes.

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[neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

['Spirit's lab' via neonixie-l]

@Jeff The heating should only be enough to prevent cathode poisoning 
starting with a healthy(ideally new) tube. I seriously doubt it would do 
anything to fix already existing cathode poisoning. It's driven using the 
same, standard current(4-6mA for an IN-18) for normal operation.
To fix existing cathode poisoning you do indeed have to seriously overdrive 
the tube and keep every cathode needed on, sequentially.

@Allen I made this with the intent of running it more often - a few seconds 
every 5, 10, maybe 15 minutes. If cycling on every digit change, it could 
be quite distracting, because the perceived brightness of the tube 
increases dramatically, and it would just keep flashing. Doing it every 30 
to 60 seconds should be about the minimum time period acceptable, but it 
really depends on your tastes.

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[neonixie-l] Re: An investigation into better ways to do cathode poisoning prevention - 1000 fps slow motion included

[Allen Dutra]

The high speed cycling makes a lot of sense when the "slot machine" effect 
isn't desired.

I guess the harder question is how much a rapid cycling is enough. 

>From the standpoint of creating a look and feel for the clock, I would 
implement 20ms of cycling (10 x 2ms) done every second when second digit 
transitions. This way the clock has a small flicker on every transition 
(second, minute, hour transitions will all have 20ms of cycling). Keeping 
flickering consistent and tied to the transitioning seconds digit makes the 
flickering easier to explain to those that notice. The most reductive 
answer to those that notice is "Nixie tubes are less stable than modern 
displays this is why there is a little flicking". This leaves out cathode 
poisoning as a concept and the fact that the flicking/highspeed cycling 
used to reverse cathode poisoning. Yet the answer still gets across the 
truth that because Nixie tubes are flawed there will be some flickering.

@Jeff

Generally if a tube has heavy cathode poisoning, over driving the tube with 
2 to 3 times the rated current is often needed to try and recover / reverse 
cathode poisoning in a nixie tube. Yet assuming a nixie tube doesn't have 
any cathode poisoning the going theory is; if every cathode is used 
regularly, cathode poisoning never should never occur in the first place. 
Simply creating neon plasma around every cathode on a regular basis should 
prevent cathode poisoning all together. What qualifies as "regularly" in 
duration and frequency is a tricky question but doesn't change the theory.


On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 8:48:24 AM UTC-8, Spirit's lab wrote:
>
> While designing my own clock, I decided to investigate the cathode 
> poisoning prevention methods utilized by most clocks, and I discovered that 
> there's room to improve and experiment.
> Here's a short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skBwGGQ58MI
> If you can't or don't want to watch: Switching between cathodes with a 
> delay of 1-2 milliseconds is going to provide the same cleaning effect as 
> the "slot machine", except without the extreme flicker which may be 
> annoying to some.
>
> As for my design - it's two HV5522s in the PLCC package connected to an 
> ESP8266(for driving the HV5522s the 3v3 signals are shifted to 5 - that 
> works up to a supply of 12.9V) and Yan's NCH6100HV boost board.
>
> It would be interesting to see what everyone here thinks.
>

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