Re: Hot List
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 19:56:38 +0100, Dave Higton wrote: would it be practicable to sponsor support of the the RISC OS side of NetSurf under the ROOL sponsorship scheme? I should be glad to contribute if such a scheme were to be implemented. Financial incentives don't appear to have made any difference so far. Quite frankly, unless there was enough money to actually properly employ an engineer, most people are low on time rather than low on motivation. (At least regarding anything a few quid could resolve) D. -- Daniel Silverstone http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ PGP mail accepted and encouraged.Key Id: 3CCE BABE 206C 3B69
Re: Hot List
In article 20150501083236.GF23045@somnambulist.local, Daniel Silverstone dsilv...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 19:56:38 +0100, Dave Higton wrote: would it be practicable to sponsor support of the the RISC OS side of NetSurf under the ROOL sponsorship scheme? I should be glad to contribute if such a scheme were to be implemented. Financial incentives don't appear to have made any difference so far. Quite frankly, unless there was enough money to actually properly employ an engineer, most people are low on time rather than low on motivation. (At least regarding anything a few quid could resolve) Then the ROOL sponsorship scheme is quite pointless, yes??? 8-(
Re: Hot List
On Fri, May 01, 2015 at 11:42:23 +0100, Brian wrote: would it be practicable to sponsor support of the the RISC OS side of NetSurf under the ROOL sponsorship scheme? I should be glad to contribute if such a scheme were to be implemented. Financial incentives don't appear to have made any difference so far. Quite frankly, unless there was enough money to actually properly employ an engineer, most people are low on time rather than low on motivation. (At least regarding anything a few quid could resolve) Then the ROOL sponsorship scheme is quite pointless, yes??? 8-( For the NetSurf core devs -- yes. For others -- who can say? D. -- Daniel Silverstone http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ PGP mail accepted and encouraged.Key Id: 3CCE BABE 206C 3B69
Re: Hot List
In article 0fc224ac3bf.03edd...@davehigton.me.uk, Dave Higton d...@davehigton.me.uk wrote: I've become aware over the years since then that the big difference between children and adults is their attitude. No-one tells children that they can't learn, and so they go through all their childhood years learning at an astonishing rate. Then something happens, and they persuade themselves (or each other) that learning is no longer possible. True. But one thing age does teach you is judgement: it becomes far easier to work out how much hassle the task is going to be, and that the reward is not worth the hassle! So you end up doing something else... I gave up programming becasue it was too much hassle. Long ago (I'm now 71). There are plenty of things I do enjoy learning about: except they tend not to stick in my memory as much as of yore. -- Richard Torrens. http://www.Torrens.org.uk for genealogy, natural history, wild food, walks, cats and more!
Re: Hot List
In article mpro.nnl86r015p1x201yb.li...@stevefryatt.org.uk, Steve Fryatt li...@stevefryatt.org.uk wrote: What you're asking for isn't hugely difficult, and would be a nice introductory project for someone wanting to get involved with the RISC OS front-end. The offers of guidance that I made to Glen a couple of months back still stand for anyone interested in picking it up. I just wish I was able to work on NetSurf because I think it is the one piece of software that everybody in RO land uses and is the most beneficial to the community as a whole. It is also the achilles-heel that deters new adopters and causes people to move to other OSs. Unfortunately, a little 8085 assembler for an OU course in microprocessors and a few simple programs in Basic, back in the early days of the model B, form the limits of my programming skills. -- Stuart Winsor Tools With A Mission sending tools across the world http://www.twam.co.uk/
Re: Hot List
someone? wrote: It takes less than an hour to install the OS and get a NetSurf build going. Is it feasible to do this using an RasPi? (Pi 2 Raspian) john -- John Rickman - http://rickman.orpheusweb.co.uk/lynx If you are doing what you want you are not wasting your time, but you may be wasting someone else's. jr
Re: Hot List
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 10:27:06AM +0100, John Rickman Iyonix wrote: someone? wrote: It takes less than an hour to install the OS and get a NetSurf build going. Is it feasible to do this using an RasPi? (Pi 2 Raspian) Yes. However you will not be able to use our pre-built cross-compiling toolchain, which is built for AMD64 Linux. Which means you'll have to build your own. And on an ARM that's going to take a while. Sadly our build process is optimised to use the fastest cheapest hardware available; we've never considered that anybody would be developing from anything else. B.
Re: Hot List
On Thu, 30 Apr 2015 09:02:42 +0100 Stuart Winsor wrote: I just wish I was able to work on NetSurf because I think it is the one piece of software that everybody in RO land uses and is the most beneficial to the community as a whole. It is also the achilles-heel that deters new adopters and causes people to move to other OSs. Unfortunately, a little 8085 assembler for an OU course in microprocessors and a few simple programs in Basic, back in the early days of the model B, form the limits of my programming skills. My uncle trained many years ago in Adult Education. One thing he said has always stuck with me: that adults possess no less ability to learn than do children. I've become aware over the years since then that the big difference between children and adults is their attitude. No-one tells children that they can't learn, and so they go through all their childhood years learning at an astonishing rate. Then something happens, and they persuade themselves (or each other) that learning is no longer possible. Perhaps one force is the fear of the embarrassment of failure. In my career, I'm used to trial and error: usually almost as much error as trial, bearing in mind the number of trials that have to be gone through on the way to a single success! Don't be embarrassed, just learn what to do next time. I'm in my mid sixties, and learning new things is something I enjoy. To anyone who thinks they can't learn something new, I would commend a change of attitude. Be positive. Think in terms of what you might be able to do - if only you try. Try, and you might succeed. Don't try, and you certainly won't succeed. Dave FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth
Re: Hot List
In message 54bc7ed240bbai...@argonet.co.uk Brian bbai...@argonet.co.uk wrote: would it be practicable to sponsor support of the the RISC OS side of NetSurf under the ROOL sponsorship scheme? I should be glad to contribute if such a scheme were to be implemented. Financial incentives don't appear to have made any difference so far. Dave FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family! Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more!
Re: Hot List
On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 04:33:28PM +0100, Brian wrote: In article 54b9784cbfli...@torrens.org.uk, Richard Torrens (lists) li...@torrens.org.uk wrote: Could you change the saving of the hot list? At present it only saves when NS is quit - a pain if you have just made changes and NS quits1 It either needs a Menu Item: Save Hot List or it should save automatically when changed. Reading this thread with some dismay. However, would it be practicable to sponsor support of the the RISC OS side of NetSurf under the ROOL sponsorship scheme? I should be glad to contribute if such a scheme were to be implemented. I don't think offering a small amount of cash is going to make much difference if there is no interested, skilled, or bored enough developer to do the work. B.
Re: Hot List
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 10:52:19 +0100, Harriet Bazley wrote: surely you can work together to either produce a patch, or to persuade someone who might already know how to code in C to produce a patch. I'm not sure it's very realistic to expect a random C coder out of the kindness of his heart to download the source to a program of the complexity of a web browser, work out how one specific piece of it currently functions, and alter that part without breaking anything else... but I suppose that's how open source software is intended to work... Oddly enough that's exactly how it's intended to work -- it's certainly how pretty much every contributor to NetSurf got started. You don't think we all sat around one day and said Hey, let's write a web browser do you? To turn your argument back around -- I'm not sure it's very realistic to expect project maintainers to continue to support a platform which none of them run and which has no active maintainer to help -- where despite there clearly being a number of engineers who still run the project and who have the requisite skills, noone can be found to provide what little support would be needed to keep the project on-track. But I suppose that's how platform support atrophies and is eventually removed. D. -- Daniel Silverstone http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ PGP mail accepted and encouraged.Key Id: 3CCE BABE 206C 3B69
Re: Hot List
On 29 Apr 2015 as I do recall, Daniel Silverstone wrote: On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 10:52:19 +0100, Harriet Bazley wrote: surely you can work together to either produce a patch, or to persuade someone who might already know how to code in C to produce a patch. I'm not sure it's very realistic to expect a random C coder out of the kindness of his heart to download the source to a program of the complexity of a web browser, work out how one specific piece of it currently functions, and alter that part without breaking anything else... but I suppose that's how open source software is intended to work... Oddly enough that's exactly how it's intended to work -- it's certainly how pretty much every contributor to NetSurf got started. You don't think we all sat around one day and said Hey, let's write a web browser do you? To turn your argument back around -- I think you may be misunderstanding me. I'm no C coder, and I quail from the thought of obliging someone else to familiarise himself with a completely new project for my benefit. -- Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie == Please all, and you will please none.
Re: Hot List
In article 20150429101112.GY23045@somnambulist.local, Daniel Silverstone dsilv...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: I'm not sure it's very realistic to expect project maintainers to continue to support a platform which none of them run and which has no active maintainer to help -- where despite there clearly being a number of engineers who still run the project and who have the requisite skills, noone can be found to provide what little support would be needed to keep the project on-track. But I suppose that's how platform support atrophies and is eventually removed. You have a very valid point. RISC OS needs a good browser: its probable that if it had one, more people would use it. But it looks like most of us who use NS on RO are users, not programmers. I have done a little programming, long ago. C I have no understanding of at all. I have looked a C source code as one of our motor controllers was programmed, and the source was in C. It left me colder than cold... Maybe you, Daniel, or one of the other programmers should write a request to comp.sys.acorn.programmer to see if you can interest anyone there in joining the team. There may well be someone who is capable, could be interested, but does not subscribe to this list. I'd do it myself, but am in no position to know how easy it will be, or what sort of things are involved. -- Richard Torrens. http://www.Torrens.org.uk for genealogy, natural history, wild food, walks, cats and more!
Re: Hot List
On 27 Apr 2015 as I do recall, Daniel Silverstone wrote: [snip] surely you can work together to either produce a patch, or to persuade someone who might already know how to code in C to produce a patch. I'm not sure it's very realistic to expect a random C coder out of the kindness of his heart to download the source to a program of the complexity of a web browser, work out how one specific piece of it currently functions, and alter that part without breaking anything else... but I suppose that's how open source software is intended to work... -- Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie == The only rose without thorns is friendship.
Re: Hot List
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 10:52:19AM +0100, Harriet Bazley wrote: I'm not sure it's very realistic to expect a random C coder out of the kindness of his heart to download the source to a program of the complexity of a web browser, work out how one specific piece of it currently functions, and alter that part without breaking anything else... but I suppose that's how open source software is intended to work... NetSurf is well compartmentalised. I suspect anybody with any experience of RISC OS C programming would find the task pretty simple. It's not as if you need to touch or look at the CSS selection code or box layout code. B.
Re: Hot List
On 29 Apr, Rob Kendrick wrote in message 20150429135240.gl11...@platypus.pepperfish.net: On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 02:42:43PM +0100, cj wrote: In article 54bbe96175li...@torrens.org.uk, Richard Torrens (lists) li...@torrens.org.uk wrote: write a request to comp.sys.acorn.programmer to see if you can interest anyone there in joining the team. There may well be someone who is capable, could be interested, but does not subscribe to this list. There has been talk in various forums about the problem. It was discussed in a *LOT* of depth on the ROOL forums not all that long ago; that discussion spread out on to the NetSurf Dev mailing list. The first thing that gets stressed is that in order to compile NetSurf (essential in order to test even the smallest change) you need to be using GCC and the autobuilder under linux. That is an immediate and very major obstacle to several people who have expressed some interest. I spent some time writing a HOWTO document outlining how to set up a cross-compiling environment using a virtual machine (so it can be done on Windows machines as well as on Linux). Sadly few people seem to have taken advantage of it. Indeed. Two people were interested, I gave up a few evenings when I should have been doing other things to document some bits and pieces as an introduction to the RISC OS front-end before they lost that interest, a couple of patches came in... and then it went quiet. -- Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/
Re: Hot List
On 29 Apr, Harriet Bazley wrote in message b2c0dbbb54.harr...@blueyonder.co.uk: On 27 Apr 2015 as I do recall, Daniel Silverstone wrote: surely you can work together to either produce a patch, or to persuade someone who might already know how to code in C to produce a patch. I'm not sure it's very realistic to expect a random C coder out of the kindness of his heart to download the source to a program of the complexity of a web browser, work out how one specific piece of it currently functions, and alter that part without breaking anything else... but I suppose that's how open source software is intended to work... ...but you'd expect someone like myself to do it for you? That's not meant in a nasty way, BTW -- I'm just filling in the unspoken bit of your argument. In the end, we're all just random C coders, and when I came on board to fix up the treeview code I downloaded the source, worked out how large chunks of it functioned and altered the bits that needed altering. I seem to recall that I also broke some fairly significant bits along the way. What you're asking for isn't hugely difficult, and would be a nice introductory project for someone wanting to get involved with the RISC OS front-end. The offers of guidance that I made to Glen a couple of months back still stand for anyone interested in picking it up. -- Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/
Re: Hot List
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 09:02:11PM +0100, Andrew Pinder wrote: In message 54bbf0d883ch...@chris-johnson.org.uk on 29 Apr 2015 cj ch...@chris-johnson.org.uk wrote: One question I have mused over for some time is what is the fraction of NetSurf users that are RISC OS users and what fraction use other platforms. Data on the number of downloads per month for each platform would give some kind of answer to that question. A very poor answer: Linux and the BSDs for example often ship their own copies: we don't provide binaries for those platforms on our website. BTW, I was at the Wakefield Show and was expecting to donate to the NetSurf project there as in previous years. Then I realised that none of the developers were there :-( Sadly it was not economically viable. I seem to recall that last year we only just managed to break even (given stall prices and travel expenses), as well as the fact that we had basically nothing new to show for RISC OS users beyond core improvements, all of which everybody who uses NetSurf on RISC OS already knew about via this list and release announcements. B.
Re: Hot List
In message 20150429135240.gl11...@platypus.pepperfish.net Rob Kendrick r...@netsurf-browser.org wrote: On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 02:42:43PM +0100, cj wrote: In article 54bbe96175li...@torrens.org.uk, Richard Torrens (lists) li...@torrens.org.uk wrote: write a request to comp.sys.acorn.programmer to see if you can interest anyone there in joining the team. There may well be someone who is capable, could be interested, but does not subscribe to this list. There has been talk in various forums about the problem. The first thing that gets stressed is that in order to compile NetSurf (essential in order to test even the smallest change) you need to be using GCC and the autobuilder under linux. That is an immediate and very major obstacle to several people who have expressed some interest. I spent some time writing a HOWTO document outlining how to set up a cross-compiling environment using a virtual machine (so it can be done on Windows machines as well as on Linux). Sadly few people seem to have taken advantage of it. Could you point me at it? I may (emphasize _may_, not _will_) be able to take on some new development work in a few weeks. I've hesitated to volunteer for NetSurf in the past because Real Life has been getting in the way of my hobby developments for the last few years, but that may be going to change. It takes less than an hour to install the OS and get a NetSurf build going. -- Nick Roberts tigger @ orpheusinternet.co.uk Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Re: Hot List
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 10:36:35PM +0100, Nick Roberts wrote: I spent some time writing a HOWTO document outlining how to set up a cross-compiling environment using a virtual machine (so it can be done on Windows machines as well as on Linux). Sadly few people seem to have taken advantage of it. Could you point me at it? I may (emphasize _may_, not _will_) be able to take on some new development work in a few weeks. I've hesitated to volunteer for NetSurf in the past because Real Life has been getting in the way of my hobby developments for the last few years, but that may be going to change. If you already have a Linux system to hand, then this documents everything you need to know: http://git.netsurf-browser.org/netsurf.git/tree/Docs/QUICK-START B.
Re: Hot List
On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 22:25:07 +0100, Harriet Bazley wrote: It either needs a Menu Item: Save Hot List or it should save automatically when changed. Seconded. Well, with two of you wanting it, surely you can work together to either produce a patch, or to persuade someone who might already know how to code in C to produce a patch. None of the core developers use RISC OS day-to-day and Steve Fryatt has been super-busy and unable to contribute properly for some time. D. -- Daniel Silverstone http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ PGP mail accepted and encouraged.Key Id: 3CCE BABE 206C 3B69
Re: Hot List
On 24 Apr 2015 as I do recall, Richard Torrens (lists) wrote: Could you change the saving of the hot list? At present it only saves when NS is quit - a pain if you have just made changes and NS quits1 (i.e. crashes!) It either needs a Menu Item: Save Hot List or it should save automatically when changed. Seconded. -- Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie == You cannot kill time without injuring eternity.
Hot List
Could you change the saving of the hot list? At present it only saves when NS is quit - a pain if you have just made changes and NS quits1 It either needs a Menu Item: Save Hot List or it should save automatically when changed. -- Richard Torrens. http://www.Torrens.org.uk for genealogy, natural history, wild food, walks, cats and more!
