Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-09 Thread Frank Filz 
Yea, a good point about Ganesha holding fd open. If we don’t hold fd open for 
getattr/setattr, NFS v4 should be able to function well without holding fd open.

 

The idea of using setlease would still be good for NFS v3 (or any NFS v4 
clients that use special stateids to do anonymous I/O). One thing we could do 
is have FSAL_VFS do a setlease on each global fd it opens. It then could use an 
avltree to map fd back to obj_handle. It actually does not need to notify 
MDCACHE – EXCEPT for the counting of open fd (which we need to make NOT 
something that MDCACHE needs to manage the count of, it just needs to see the 
count so it can reap open fd).

 

On the other hand, if we separate the open fd LRU from the object cache LRU as 
I have proposed, in a multi-protocol environment the open fd LRU could be made 
much more aggressive so open global fd get closed much quicker after use.

 

Frank

 

From: pradeep.tho...@gmail.com [mailto:pradeep.tho...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of 
Pradeep
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:37 PM
To: Frank Filz <ffilz...@mindspring.com>
Cc: DENIEL Philippe <philippe.den...@cea.fr>; nfs-ganesha-devel 
<nfs-ganesha-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

 

Hi Frank,

 

I think there are cases where a touch/chmod on a file causes it to be opened 
forever in ganesha (until we are over the FD limit). This  will prevent other 
applications such as Samba from opening the file and sharing it through SMB 
protocol to windows clients. Samba uses SETLEASE to get notified if other 
applications open the file. Ganesha also may have to do something similar to 
get notified and close cached FDs. The challenge is to map FD to MDCACHE object 
so that it can call close() on that object. One way to map FD to a path (using 
readlink) and then convert that to export and relative path. Given export and 
relative path, FSAL could return a key for that which can be used to lookup the 
object in MDCACHE. Is there a better way?

 

Here is the relevant Samba code that implements SETLEASE and signal handler: 
https://github.com/samba-team/samba/blob/master/source3/smbd/oplock_linux.c

 

Thanks,

Pradeep

 

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 7:18 AM, Frank Filz <ffilz...@mindspring.com 
<mailto:ffilz...@mindspring.com> > wrote:

Unfortunately out in the real world, people want to mix POSIX and Microsoft 
semantics…

 

So we do the best we can.

 

I wonder how much of the multi-protocol use falls into two camps:

 

1.  Simple file sharing, for example, I run Virtual Box on a Windows 
machine to get Linux VMs. I mount my Windows “My Documents” into the Linux VM 
so I can easily pass files back and forth. Share reservations work and prevent 
Linux from trampling things if Microsoft Word happens to have a file open.

2.  Some kind of database application with clients on multiple platforms. 
Such application will use appropriate synchronizing operations including byte 
range locks in a way that does not depend on any of the peculiarities of POSIX 
or Microsoft semantics.

 

Yea, we can try to make things like delete of open files work as best as 
possible, but either of those two use cases won’t have any really big surprises 
if the integration for a peculiarity like deleting an open file isn’t perfect.

 

Now one use case that may not go so well is an application that uses lock files 
to indicate which client or process is active…

 

I’ve seen folks paranoid that POSIX byte range locks are only advisory, but 
outside of a program bug, if a POSIX app and a Windows app are both using byte 
range locks to protect records they are changing, it doesn’t matter that POSIX 
thinks they are only advisory… Of course a server CAN enforce the range locks 
(and NFS v4 even supports this idea), and yea, that will break a POSIX app that 
thought it didn’t actually need to respect the locks.

 

I think overall Ganesha does a pretty good job. There are places where it can 
do better.

 

While talk of having an SMB front end to Ganesha are fun, I doubt we will ever 
do that, and I don’t think it’s necessary to have sufficiently good integration 
to cover 99.9% of the possible multi-protocol use cases.

 

Frank

 

From: DENIEL Philippe [mailto:philippe.den...@cea.fr 
<mailto:philippe.den...@cea.fr> ] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 6:28 AM
To: Pradeep <pradeeptho...@gmail.com <mailto:pradeeptho...@gmail.com> >; 
nfs-ganesha-devel <nfs-ganesha-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 
<mailto:nfs-ganesha-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> >
Subject: Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

 

Hi,

from a "stratospheric" point of view, I see a potentially big issue ahead for 
such a feature : FSAL has been designed to be quite close to POSIX behavior, 
CIFS follows the Microsoft File System semantics, which is pretty different 
from POSIX.
My experience with 9p integration in Ganesha shows some issu

Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-07 Thread Frank Filz 
Unfortunately out in the real world, people want to mix POSIX and Microsoft 
semantics…

 

So we do the best we can.

 

I wonder how much of the multi-protocol use falls into two camps:

 

1.  Simple file sharing, for example, I run Virtual Box on a Windows 
machine to get Linux VMs. I mount my Windows “My Documents” into the Linux VM 
so I can easily pass files back and forth. Share reservations work and prevent 
Linux from trampling things if Microsoft Word happens to have a file open.

2.  Some kind of database application with clients on multiple platforms. 
Such application will use appropriate synchronizing operations including byte 
range locks in a way that does not depend on any of the peculiarities of POSIX 
or Microsoft semantics.

 

Yea, we can try to make things like delete of open files work as best as 
possible, but either of those two use cases won’t have any really big surprises 
if the integration for a peculiarity like deleting an open file isn’t perfect.

 

Now one use case that may not go so well is an application that uses lock files 
to indicate which client or process is active…

 

I’ve seen folks paranoid that POSIX byte range locks are only advisory, but 
outside of a program bug, if a POSIX app and a Windows app are both using byte 
range locks to protect records they are changing, it doesn’t matter that POSIX 
thinks they are only advisory… Of course a server CAN enforce the range locks 
(and NFS v4 even supports this idea), and yea, that will break a POSIX app that 
thought it didn’t actually need to respect the locks.

 

I think overall Ganesha does a pretty good job. There are places where it can 
do better.

 

While talk of having an SMB front end to Ganesha are fun, I doubt we will ever 
do that, and I don’t think it’s necessary to have sufficiently good integration 
to cover 99.9% of the possible multi-protocol use cases.

 

Frank

 

From: DENIEL Philippe [mailto:philippe.den...@cea.fr] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 6:28 AM
To: Pradeep <pradeeptho...@gmail.com>; nfs-ganesha-devel 
<nfs-ganesha-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

 

Hi,

from a "stratospheric" point of view, I see a potentially big issue ahead for 
such a feature : FSAL has been designed to be quite close to POSIX behavior, 
CIFS follows the Microsoft File System semantics, which is pretty different 
from POSIX.
My experience with 9p integration in Ganesha shows some issues in POSIX corner 
cases (like "delete on close" situations), I can't imagine what integrating a 
CIFS support would mean. 
Years ago, Tom Tapley came to bake-a-thon (this was a few months after he 
joined Microsoft Research) and he talked about issues met by Microsoft to 
implement a NFSv4 support, because of Microsoft semantics. He found many, but 
was quite optimistic. Current state : Windows has no NFS support and code 
developed at CITI (e.g. NFSv4 clients for Windos) were not pushed to Windows.
Microsoft is not POSIX and POSIX is not Microsoft. They live in two very 
different worlds, and it's probably better so ;-)

Regards

Philippe

On 03/06/18 18:20, Pradeep wrote:

Hello,

 

Is there plans to implement multiprotocol (NFS and CIFS accessing same 
export/share) in ganesha? I believe current FD cache will need changes to 
support that.

 

Thanks,

Pradeep






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Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-07 Thread DENIEL Philippe 

Hi,

from a "stratospheric" point of view, I see a potentially big issue 
ahead for such a feature : FSAL has been designed to be quite close to 
POSIX behavior, CIFS follows the Microsoft File System semantics, which 
is pretty different from POSIX.
My experience with 9p integration in Ganesha shows some issues in POSIX 
corner cases (like "delete on close" situations), I can't imagine what 
integrating a CIFS support would mean.
Years ago, Tom Tapley came to bake-a-thon (this was a few months after 
he joined Microsoft Research) and he talked about issues met by 
Microsoft to implement a NFSv4 support, because of Microsoft semantics. 
He found many, but was quite optimistic. Current state : Windows has no 
NFS support and code developed at CITI (e.g. NFSv4 clients for Windos) 
were not pushed to Windows.
Microsoft is not POSIX and POSIX is not Microsoft. They live in two very 
different worlds, and it's probably better so ;-)


    Regards

        Philippe

On 03/06/18 18:20, Pradeep wrote:

Hello,

Is there plans to implement multiprotocol (NFS and CIFS accessing same 
export/share) in ganesha? I believe current FD cache will need changes 
to support that.


Thanks,
Pradeep


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Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-06 Thread Frank Filz 
> So, in fact, both ganesha and samba can have the same file open at the same
> time (just as any 2 processes can).  This will, of course, cause issues if 
> both are
> modifying the same sections of the file.  This is why file locking was 
> invented.
> NFSv3 (via NLM) and NFSv4 (built in) have locking modes that are compatible
> with SMB locking, so as long as the clients use those, it "should" work fine. 
>  Of
> course, there's going to be issues, since this isn't tested well (or maybe at 
> all).  I
> have some idea that the Gluster team at one point tested this; they support
> exporting Gluster from both ganesha and samba, although I don't believe they
> support exporting the same FS at the same time.
> 
> So the short answer is that it theoretically can work, and it actually may 
> work,
> but it likely won't, without some work.

It will probably work to some relaxed definition of work... It will work best 
with NFS v4 clients since they will use NFS v4 OPEN calls which define when the 
client is attempting to access the file, and access will be blocked if an SMB 
user has the file open with a conflicting deny mode. Since V2.4, Ganesha has 
had better management of open file descriptors and with NFS v4 access, will 
much more often only have an open fd when the V4 client actually has the file 
open. The key trick is that fetching attributes outside of the context of the 
open file may cause a different file descriptor to be opened, and that may not 
be closed immediately - though we are re-examining how we manage the 
"anonymous" file descriptor and this would be a good reason to only open a 
temporary fd for the duration of a stat system call.

To the extent that better multi-protocol operation is important to our 
stakeholders, we are more likely to improve the situation. We always welcome 
new developers representing new stakeholders...

Frank

> On 03/06/2018 01:01 PM, Pradeep wrote:
> > Hi Daniel,
> >
> > What I meant is a use case where some one needs to access the same
> > export through NFS protocol using Ganesha server and SMB protocol
> > using Samba server. Both Samba and Ganesha are running on the same server.
> > Obviously, file can't be open by both ganesha and samba; so we need to
> > close the open FDs (if those are for caching). Linux provides oplock
> > (fcntl() with F_SETLEASE) for processes to get notification on other
> > processes trying to open and this can be used to synchronize with Samba.
> > Samba seems to support this already:
> > https://github.com/samba-team/samba/blob/master/source3/smbd/oplock_li
> > nux.c
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Daniel Gryniewicz  > > wrote:
> >
> > Ganesha has multi-protocol (NFS3, NFS4, and 9P).  There are no plans
> > to add CIFS, since that is an insanely complicated protocol, and has
> > a userspace daemon implementation already (in the form of Samba).  I
> > personally wouldn't reject such support if it was offered, but as
> > far as I know, no one is even thinking about working on it.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> > On 03/06/2018 12:20 PM, Pradeep wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Is there plans to implement multiprotocol (NFS and CIFS
> > accessing same export/share) in ganesha? I believe current FD
> > cache will need changes to support that.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Pradeep
> >
> >
> > 
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Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-06 Thread Daniel Gryniewicz 
So, in fact, both ganesha and samba can have the same file open at the 
same time (just as any 2 processes can).  This will, of course, cause 
issues if both are modifying the same sections of the file.  This is why 
file locking was invented.  NFSv3 (via NLM) and NFSv4 (built in) have 
locking modes that are compatible with SMB locking, so as long as the 
clients use those, it "should" work fine.  Of course, there's going to 
be issues, since this isn't tested well (or maybe at all).  I have some 
idea that the Gluster team at one point tested this; they support 
exporting Gluster from both ganesha and samba, although I don't believe 
they support exporting the same FS at the same time.


So the short answer is that it theoretically can work, and it actually 
may work, but it likely won't, without some work.


Daniel

On 03/06/2018 01:01 PM, Pradeep wrote:

Hi Daniel,

What I meant is a use case where some one needs to access the same 
export through NFS protocol using Ganesha server and SMB protocol using 
Samba server. Both Samba and Ganesha are running on the same server. 
Obviously, file can't be open by both ganesha and samba; so we need to 
close the open FDs (if those are for caching). Linux provides oplock 
(fcntl() with F_SETLEASE) for processes to get notification on other 
processes trying to open and this can be used to synchronize with Samba.
Samba seems to support this already: 
https://github.com/samba-team/samba/blob/master/source3/smbd/oplock_linux.c


Thanks,

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Daniel Gryniewicz > wrote:


Ganesha has multi-protocol (NFS3, NFS4, and 9P).  There are no plans
to add CIFS, since that is an insanely complicated protocol, and has
a userspace daemon implementation already (in the form of Samba).  I
personally wouldn't reject such support if it was offered, but as
far as I know, no one is even thinking about working on it.

Daniel


On 03/06/2018 12:20 PM, Pradeep wrote:

Hello,

Is there plans to implement multiprotocol (NFS and CIFS
accessing same export/share) in ganesha? I believe current FD
cache will need changes to support that.

Thanks,
Pradeep



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Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-06 Thread Pradeep 
Hi Daniel,

What I meant is a use case where some one needs to access the same export
through NFS protocol using Ganesha server and SMB protocol using Samba
server. Both Samba and Ganesha are running on the same server. Obviously,
file can't be open by both ganesha and samba; so we need to close the open
FDs (if those are for caching). Linux provides oplock (fcntl() with
F_SETLEASE) for processes to get notification on other processes trying to
open and this can be used to synchronize with Samba.
Samba seems to support this already:
https://github.com/samba-team/samba/blob/master/source3/smbd/oplock_linux.c

Thanks,

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Daniel Gryniewicz  wrote:

> Ganesha has multi-protocol (NFS3, NFS4, and 9P).  There are no plans to
> add CIFS, since that is an insanely complicated protocol, and has a
> userspace daemon implementation already (in the form of Samba).  I
> personally wouldn't reject such support if it was offered, but as far as I
> know, no one is even thinking about working on it.
>
> Daniel
>
>
> On 03/06/2018 12:20 PM, Pradeep wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Is there plans to implement multiprotocol (NFS and CIFS accessing same
>> export/share) in ganesha? I believe current FD cache will need changes to
>> support that.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Pradeep
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
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Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-06 Thread Kaleb S. KEITHLEY 
On 03/06/2018 12:20 PM, Pradeep wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Is there plans to implement multiprotocol (NFS and CIFS accessing same
> export/share) in ganesha? 

CIFS* _in_ ganesha? No.

There is on-going work being done to make leases, delegations, and ACLs
work consistently and reliably between nfs-ganesha and Samba.

You can talk about that here and/or on one of the Samba mailing lists.
I've cc'd a couple of Samba devs who can set you on the right course.

*My Samba developer associates tell me the correct name is SMB or more
generally, Samba.

--

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Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-06 Thread Frank Filz 
> Basically, this.  For the sake of discussion, is Daniel's take on SMB
integration
> directly in nfs-ganesha what you're thinking of, or were you ireferring to
co-
> export of Linux filesystems with Samba or some other Linux-integrated SMB
> stack?

IBM had some degree of success with exporting filesystems from both Ganesha
and Samba. Between limited integration between the two and the nature of the
two protocols the sharing is not perfect, but NFS does have the share
reservations (and they are part of NLM for NFS v3 locking) that form part of
the integration.

Frank

> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Daniel Gryniewicz 
> wrote:
> > Ganesha has multi-protocol (NFS3, NFS4, and 9P).  There are no plans
> > to add CIFS, since that is an insanely complicated protocol, and has a
> > userspace daemon implementation already (in the form of Samba).  I
> > personally wouldn't reject such support if it was offered, but as far
> > as I know, no one is even thinking about working on it.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> > On 03/06/2018 12:20 PM, Pradeep wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> Is there plans to implement multiprotocol (NFS and CIFS accessing
> >> same
> >> export/share) in ganesha? I believe current FD cache will need
> >> changes to support that.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Pradeep
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> - Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
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> >>
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Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-06 Thread Matt Benjamin 
Basically, this.  For the sake of discussion, is Daniel's take on SMB
integration directly in nfs-ganesha what you're thinking of, or were
you ireferring to co-export of Linux filesystems with Samba or some
other Linux-integrated SMB stack?

Matt

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Daniel Gryniewicz  wrote:
> Ganesha has multi-protocol (NFS3, NFS4, and 9P).  There are no plans to add
> CIFS, since that is an insanely complicated protocol, and has a userspace
> daemon implementation already (in the form of Samba).  I personally wouldn't
> reject such support if it was offered, but as far as I know, no one is even
> thinking about working on it.
>
> Daniel
>
>
> On 03/06/2018 12:20 PM, Pradeep wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Is there plans to implement multiprotocol (NFS and CIFS accessing same
>> export/share) in ganesha? I believe current FD cache will need changes to
>> support that.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Pradeep
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [Nfs-ganesha-devel] Multiprotocol support in ganesha

2018-03-06 Thread Daniel Gryniewicz 
Ganesha has multi-protocol (NFS3, NFS4, and 9P).  There are no plans to 
add CIFS, since that is an insanely complicated protocol, and has a 
userspace daemon implementation already (in the form of Samba).  I 
personally wouldn't reject such support if it was offered, but as far as 
I know, no one is even thinking about working on it.


Daniel

On 03/06/2018 12:20 PM, Pradeep wrote:

Hello,

Is there plans to implement multiprotocol (NFS and CIFS accessing same 
export/share) in ganesha? I believe current FD cache will need changes 
to support that.


Thanks,
Pradeep


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