[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
Dear Pipers I forwarded an extract of the problem about sources to the EFDSS library - here is the reply I received. Regards Alan Corkett -Original Message- From: Elaine Bradtke [mailto:e...@efdss.org] Sent: 15 January 2009 11:19 To: a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk Alan Corkett Subject: Re: Fw: Jimmy Allen The CDM vol. 6 was published in 1964. We don't seem to have an earlier version of it, and nothing in manuscript form. The recordings we have of it don't date back that far either. It would be interesting to see if it's in Peter Kennedy's collection - perhaps you could check with the National Sound Archive,0207-589 6603 or Topic Records, who are producing a retrospective series based on his collection. Tony Engle email: tonyen...@topicrecords.co.uk 0207-263 1240 The Northumbrian connection appears to have come from the name. I checked the Fiddler's Companion - a reasonably reliable if slightly North American biased source: http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/JIG_JM.htm#JIMMY_ALLEN JIMMY ALLEN. AKA and see “Jamie Allen,” “Reel of Tullochgorum.” English, Scottish, American, Polka or March. England, Northumberland. USA, New England. G Major. Standard tuning. AABB. Northumbrian musician Jamie Allen (1734-1810) was a famous small pipes player whose name is associated with this tune. Allen’s father Will (1704-1779) was perhaps a pipemaker and was River Warden of the Coquet. His wife, Jimmy’s mother, was a gypsy, and the elder Allen associated much with her folk. Son Jimmy (or Jamie) was the subject of two biographies, largely fanciful, and it is hard to determine the facts of his life. It is said he was at various times piper to the Duchess of Northumberland, enlisted in the army, and a fugitive from justice. At any rate, he was highly regarded by his contemporaries as a musician and is thought to have played the Northumbrian smallpipes, Border pipes, and Union (uilleann) pipes. English/Scottish versions are found under the “Jamie” title, American appear often as “Jimmy.” The melody is popular in English sessions in modern times, although considered to be somewhat of a ‘beginner’s tune’. Miller Perron (101 Polkas), 1978; No. 52. Miller Perron (New England Fiddlers Repertoire), 1983; No. 63. Maddeningly, he doesn't give his source for the historical information. We don't have Miller Perron 101 Polkas, so it may be from there. Another diverting, if not necessarily enlightening discussion of the tune is here:http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6354 Sorry we can't trace it back any further. It sounds like it's been around forever. . . Dear Malcolm A Happy New Year to you! The Northumbrian Pipers Society are busy discussing the origins of the tune Jimmy Allen which was published in EFDSS CDM6 in 1964. I felt I might have learnt this tune in the 1950s as an easy/beginners tune, but not if it was not published till 1964, unless picked up aurally Can you throw any light on this mystery. Regards Alan Corkett NB. Barry Say who edits their NPS magazine wrote this (an extract...) As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would serve as initial targets for beginner pipers. In the course of this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it did not appear in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers collection and to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition of the Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's Tune book(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy. Peter Kennedy was a pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in the 1950s and 60s and worked extensively in the North-East and is probably the person most responsible for making the music of the North-East of England available to the whole of England in that period. I do not intend this as either praise or criticism. I had always assumed from its name that it was part of the Northumbrian tradition, but I am beginning to suspect that we have been deceived by our own willingness to believe that which seems convenient. The tune as we know it appears in the EFDSS Community dance manual volume 6 on a page with two tunes composed in 1961. The copyright dates would indicate that it was published in 1964 or 1967. I cannot lay my hands on my copy of this but I am sure that this publication was certainly part of Peter Kennedy's sphere of influence, but the fact that it does not appear in the first two volumes of the Fiddlers Tune book, would indicate that he was unaware of it in 1951 and had found it by 1964. The Reel of Tullochgorum is almost certainly the same tune but is reckoned to be in D. It was published by Ian Powrie, apparently in the late 1950s and it seems that he claimed that it was a traditional tune which he had collected. Ian lived in Perthshire - so that is the first place we would suspect. Now we come to the important link. Ian Powrie lead a Scottish Dance Band which appeared on the 'White Heather Club', a television program which I know was
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
If the tune was not recorded pre 1974 (it seems), or known to be published pre 1964, then to assume 'it has been around for ever' is a bit of a long shot. It doesn't appear in any of the sources on Farne, so if old it may still be a recent import to the NE. If it were an old NE tune I would expect to see it in Vickers or somewhere. It isn't. John -Original Message- From: Alan Corkett [mailto:a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 15 January 2009 13:35 To: NSP LIST Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen Dear Pipers I forwarded an extract of the problem about sources to the EFDSS library - here is the reply I received. Regards Alan Corkett -Original Message- From: Elaine Bradtke [mailto:e...@efdss.org] Sent: 15 January 2009 11:19 To: a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk Alan Corkett Subject: Re: Fw: Jimmy Allen The CDM vol. 6 was published in 1964. We don't seem to have an earlier version of it, and nothing in manuscript form. The recordings we have of it don't date back that far either. It would be interesting to see if it's in Peter Kennedy's collection - perhaps you could check with the National Sound Archive,0207-589 6603 or Topic Records, who are producing a retrospective series based on his collection. Tony Engle email: tonyen...@topicrecords.co.uk 0207-263 1240 The Northumbrian connection appears to have come from the name. I checked the Fiddler's Companion - a reasonably reliable if slightly North American biased source: http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/JIG_JM.htm#JIMMY_ALLEN JIMMY ALLEN. AKA and see Jamie Allen, Reel of Tullochgorum. English, Scottish, American, Polka or March. England, Northumberland. USA, New England. G Major. Standard tuning. AABB. Northumbrian musician Jamie Allen (1734-1810) was a famous small pipes player whose name is associated with this tune. Allen's father Will (1704-1779) was perhaps a pipemaker and was River Warden of the Coquet. His wife, Jimmy's mother, was a gypsy, and the elder Allen associated much with her folk. Son Jimmy (or Jamie) was the subject of two biographies, largely fanciful, and it is hard to determine the facts of his life. It is said he was at various times piper to the Duchess of Northumberland, enlisted in the army, and a fugitive from justice. At any rate, he was highly regarded by his contemporaries as a musician and is thought to have played the Northumbrian smallpipes, Border pipes, and Union (uilleann) pipes. English/Scottish versions are found under the Jamie title, American appear often as Jimmy. The melody is popular in English sessions in modern times, although considered to be somewhat of a 'beginner's tune'. Miller Perron (101 Polkas), 1978; No. 52. Miller Perron (New England Fiddlers Repertoire), 1983; No. 63. Maddeningly, he doesn't give his source for the historical information. We don't have Miller Perron 101 Polkas, so it may be from there. Another diverting, if not necessarily enlightening discussion of the tune is here:http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6354 Sorry we can't trace it back any further. It sounds like it's been around forever. . . Dear Malcolm A Happy New Year to you! The Northumbrian Pipers Society are busy discussing the origins of the tune Jimmy Allen which was published in EFDSS CDM6 in 1964. I felt I might have learnt this tune in the 1950s as an easy/beginners tune, but not if it was not published till 1964, unless picked up aurally Can you throw any light on this mystery. Regards Alan Corkett NB. Barry Say who edits their NPS magazine wrote this (an extract...) As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would serve as initial targets for beginner pipers. In the course of this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it did not appear in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers collection and to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition of the Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's Tune book(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy. Peter Kennedy was a pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in the 1950s and 60s and worked extensively in the North-East and is probably the person most responsible for making the music of the North-East of England available to the whole of England in that period. I do not intend this as either praise or criticism. I had always assumed from its name that it was part of the Northumbrian tradition, but I am beginning to suspect that we have been deceived by our own willingness to believe that which seems convenient. The tune as we know it appears in the EFDSS Community dance manual volume 6 on a page with two tunes composed in 1961. The copyright dates would indicate that it was published in 1964 or 1967. I cannot lay my hands on my copy of this but I am sure that this publication was certainly part of Peter Kennedy's sphere of influence, but the fact that it does not appear in the first two volumes of the Fiddlers Tune book, would indicate that he was unaware
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
Not having the will to resist a good Google search, I came across this variation which I haven't heard before (American). http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/old-time-music/midi/005200.MID No accreditation for the extra fiddly bits. I had no idea (back in '73) that I was learning such a new tune :-) and, I'm sure, there's not one piper here who has never played it at some stage. I agree that such a well-known tune would have been published well before 1964 had it been around. This is a very interesting thread. When it appeared in the NSP tunebook, did it come about from oh I know a good one or are there any indications as to an older date/source etc. 1964 isn't that long ago to some of us. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To: Alan Corkett a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:40 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen If the tune was not recorded pre 1974 (it seems), or known to be published pre 1964, then to assume 'it has been around for ever' is a bit of a long shot. It doesn't appear in any of the sources on Farne, so if old it may still be a recent import to the NE. If it were an old NE tune I would expect to see it in Vickers or somewhere. It isn't. John -Original Message- From: Alan Corkett [mailto:a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 15 January 2009 13:35 To: NSP LIST Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen Dear Pipers I forwarded an extract of the problem about sources to the EFDSS library - here is the reply I received. Regards Alan Corkett -Original Message- From: Elaine Bradtke [mailto:e...@efdss.org] Sent: 15 January 2009 11:19 To: a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk Alan Corkett Subject: Re: Fw: Jimmy Allen The CDM vol. 6 was published in 1964. We don't seem to have an earlier version of it, and nothing in manuscript form. The recordings we have of it don't date back that far either. It would be interesting to see if it's in Peter Kennedy's collection - perhaps you could check with the National Sound Archive,0207-589 6603 or Topic Records, who are producing a retrospective series based on his collection. Tony Engle email: tonyen...@topicrecords.co.uk 0207-263 1240 The Northumbrian connection appears to have come from the name. I checked the Fiddler's Companion - a reasonably reliable if slightly North American biased source: http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/JIG_JM.htm#JIMMY_ALLEN JIMMY ALLEN. AKA and see Jamie Allen, Reel of Tullochgorum. English, Scottish, American, Polka or March. England, Northumberland. USA, New England. G Major. Standard tuning. AABB. Northumbrian musician Jamie Allen (1734-1810) was a famous small pipes player whose name is associated with this tune. Allen's father Will (1704-1779) was perhaps a pipemaker and was River Warden of the Coquet. His wife, Jimmy's mother, was a gypsy, and the elder Allen associated much with her folk. Son Jimmy (or Jamie) was the subject of two biographies, largely fanciful, and it is hard to determine the facts of his life. It is said he was at various times piper to the Duchess of Northumberland, enlisted in the army, and a fugitive from justice. At any rate, he was highly regarded by his contemporaries as a musician and is thought to have played the Northumbrian smallpipes, Border pipes, and Union (uilleann) pipes. English/Scottish versions are found under the Jamie title, American appear often as Jimmy. The melody is popular in English sessions in modern times, although considered to be somewhat of a 'beginner's tune'. Miller Perron (101 Polkas), 1978; No. 52. Miller Perron (New England Fiddlers Repertoire), 1983; No. 63. Maddeningly, he doesn't give his source for the historical information. We don't have Miller Perron 101 Polkas, so it may be from there. Another diverting, if not necessarily enlightening discussion of the tune is here:http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6354 Sorry we can't trace it back any further. It sounds like it's been around forever. . . Dear Malcolm A Happy New Year to you! The Northumbrian Pipers Society are busy discussing the origins of the tune Jimmy Allen which was published in EFDSS CDM6 in 1964. I felt I might have learnt this tune in the 1950s as an easy/beginners tune, but not if it was not published till 1964, unless picked up aurally Can you throw any light on this mystery. Regards Alan Corkett NB. Barry Say who edits their NPS magazine wrote this (an extract...) As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would serve as initial targets for beginner pipers. In the course of this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it did not appear in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers collection and to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition of the Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's Tune book(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy. Peter Kennedy was a pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in the 1950s
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
On 15 Jan 2009, colin wrote: When it appeared in the NSP tunebook, did it come about from oh I know a good one or are there any indications as to an older date/source etc. 1964 isn't that long ago to some of us. The drafts suggested tunes for the 1970 edition of the 1st tunebook are pasted into a book which was also used for the 1936 edition. I have it in front of me - none of them are dated or give sources. Jimmy Allan is no. 6 of 17, not all of which were printed in tunebook 1- no. 1 for example, is an Air with variations by Forster Charlton, which later became Jim Hall's Fancy The editors were Forster Charlton, Colin Ross, and Roland Wright. Only Colin is still with us, and he is unsure where, precisely, he learnt it. It was just there. So at present Barry's theory is as good as any - pinching a good tune and (sometimes) renaming it being somewhat of a tradition in itself in the area - and probably elsewhere, for all I know. I can only make two further suggestions for dating - the track listings of the two (3?) Cheviot Ranters LPs, and their written repertoire - which I believe to be in private possession, but reasonably accessible. Cheers Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
Jimmy Allen is on The Cheviot Hills by the Cheviot Ranters which was released on Topic (12TS222) in 1972 so later than dates already discussed in the 1960s. For anybody looking for information on Topics records Rod Stradling's Musical Traditions website has a very thorough list at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/discos/discog.htm Ian julia@nspipes.co.uk wrote: I can only make two further suggestions for dating - the track listings of the two (3?) Cheviot Ranters LPs, and their written repertoire - which I believe to be in private possession, but reasonably accessible. Cheers Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
On the Cheviot Ranters LP The Cheviot Hills recorded in 1972
Final track side one Jimmy Allen is llisted; but with no sleave notes.
On the vinyl itself it is not directly attributed, other than:
{All other material Trad C/C)
?
Not sure what C/C means
Regards
Malcolm
--
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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
Copyright control(led)? Often abbreviated to Cop. Con
Ian
malcra...@aol.com wrote:
On the vinyl itself it is not directly attributed, other than:
{All other material Trad C/C)
?
Not sure what C/C means
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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
There's a further topic for discussion. What does anyone claim Trad
C/C means? I suspect there are people on this list who will disagree
with me, but I think the statement 'Trad C/C' is usually a nonsense
statement. It's either one or the other. It can't be both. Copyright
has to belong to someone.
By calling something 'trad', in effect, a person is saying they do not
believe there is anyone who has copyright in it. They aren't expecting
to pay royalties for using it, or that someone will leap out of the
woodwork who can claim them. A different copyright exists in the actual
recording, but you do not give yourself copyright in a piece of music
that comes from somewhere else just by finding it on a grubby piece of
lined paper, hearing it in a session or playing it. You can only get
such a copyright by tracing who wrote it, finding them or their
executors, being able to show that their copyright has not expired and
persuading them to sell it to you.
As for Jimmy Allen, one cannot prove that it was ancient from a
negative, but it does look as though there was no one around in the
1960s or 1970s who claimed that they or their ancestor wrote it. If
this reasoning were valid, which it isn't, it would be persuasive that
if anyone once wrote it, they died before about 1900. It doesn't,
though, unfortunately, provide any direct link to someone who died in
1810.
Dru
On 15 Jan 2009, at 20:18, Ian Lawther wrote:
Copyright control(led)? Often abbreviated to Cop. Con
Ian
malcra...@aol.com wrote:
On the vinyl itself it is not directly attributed, other than:
{All other material Trad C/C)
?
Not sure what C/C means
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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen
Some years ago, I would have held the opinion that it was possible that tunes we play now could be 200 years old but had only been written down or published in the last 50 years. In the case of Northumbrian and Scottish music I now think this is very unlikely. We have a wealth of published material and manuscripts going back well over 200 years. We have several examples Vickers, Rook, the Clough Family of players noting down the tunes they played as an aide memoire. The date at which a tune is written down or published is a latest possible date of composition. If it was composed considerably earlier than that it would only survive past the lifetime of the composer by being played in public so that other musicians would pick it up and it would be incorporated into their repertoire. It would spread through the community until someone wrote it down. So, if it aint wrote down somewhere it wasn't widely played. One may suggest that a tune could be handed down through a family by ear for several generations, but there is no evidence that this has ever occurred to my knowledge. No one ever claimed Jimmy Allan was old, we just assumed it was. Barry On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:57, Dru Brooke-Taylor wrote: As for Jimmy Allen, one cannot prove that it was ancient from a negative, but it does look as though there was no one around in the 1960s or 1970s who claimed that they or their ancestor wrote it. If this reasoning were valid, which it isn't, it would be persuasive that if anyone once wrote it, they died before about 1900. It doesn't, though, unfortunately, provide any direct link to someone who died in 1810. Dru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
