Re: [NTG-context] A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices
The handling of the vons issue is cultural and language-dependent.
The problem with mucking around with vonsep and other parameters is
that one may very well have a mixture of references in a single
document (this is often the case for me). I see no solution other than
trying to identify some common use and to make the behavior depend on
the language= field (or the document language, by default).
Alan
On Sun, 1 Feb 2015 20:57:23 +0100
Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de wrote:
Hi Idris, All,
We have here the classical database problem of finding a format that
fits all. But, as any body working with databases knows this will not
work with a rigid format.
Here we have 3 fields for the authors can can be misused.
The von is the most problematic. It seems due to its cultural
diversity.
The use of the \setuppublicationlist[colsep=] helps in some ways that
it gives the writers of text the flexibility of manually controlling
the space after von field, but as Idris has pointed out this would
involve a lot of work depending on the authors one has in ones
database. This is especially, problematic for academics that reuse
their bibliographies!
Irdis second solution is a simple work around for where only a few
changes are necessary.
I am not an expert with this „von“ business, but in Idris case here
„al-„ a simple change in the output of the vonsep could help globally
without causing to many problems. That is make the output of the
vonsep dependent on the last character of the von-field here „-„
The other possibility would be to use a discretionary switch for the
output of the vonsep one definition could be vonsep=
yes : output blank or global vonsep (default if
vonsep field not in publication entry) no: do not
output vonsep string : output character sequence
command : use command to output vonsep
Of course we could just have a default handler for the von field and
allow it to be changed by writers!
hope this helps the people smashing their brains on this subject/code!
regards
Keith.
Am 01.02.2015 um 16:06 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
isha...@colostate.edu:
Dear Syndicate,
The current bibliography handler uses the following for authors:
\type{\author[junior]{firstnames}[inits]{von}{surname}}
Now in Arabic we have something similar to the 'von' field: the
definite article 'al-', 'ibn', etc. Just as with 'von' we want to
ignore them in the alphabetical sorting. [On the other hand,
ConTeXt cannot currently sort its own bbl files alphabetically].
See the linked picture for a real-life example (the top-right of
the page contains both Dutch and Arabic examples):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnimlactrlqz6ak/arabic-dutch-bib.jpg?dl=0
Now the {von} field works for these Arabic prefixes, but there is
an issue: There can be no space between 'al-' and what follows
(e.g. 'al-Haq'). But the {von} field by default adds a space (von
Corbin). So what to do? One solution is to use
\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] (see also attached):
[snip, snip]
\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] kills the space after the prefix,
but that means that for every 'von', 'van', 'abu', and the like we
have to add the space manually in the {von} field (as in the above
example).
If we don't want to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] then we have
to define a command for 'al-' that gobbles the space:
% \define \GobbleSpace{\ignorespaces}
% \define \Al{al-\GobbleSpace}
If one is using lots of Arabic names and few, e.g., Dutch names,
then using the [vonsep=] approach seems better. But in the upcoming
bib module we may want a better solution so that bbl files can be
more consistent and portable. Any thoughts are appreciated, and
[snip, snip]
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
Re: [NTG-context] A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices
Hi Hans, All,
Am 02.02.2015 um 01:05 schrieb Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl:
[snip, snip]
I'm sure we can cook up something. Personally I'd like to get away from this
'von' and 'junior' thing and use better names, like
initials (by default taken from firstnames)
firstnames
prefixes (unless specificed, taken from surnames)
surnames
postfixes (unless specified, taken from surnames)
we can think of a sort keys as well, so maybe:
author = {[sortkey] firstnames, prefixes, surnames, postfixes}
or
author = {sortkey:: firstnames, prefixes, surnames, postfixes}
(we can have an exporter that exports to a regular dumb bib file for other
usage)
I would think something more dynamic would be better!
Something like a possible filter field for parsing the author information, so
that writers
can the set-up the sort field and von fields!
If it is not designated for an entry the default filter is used.
regards
Keith.___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
Re: [NTG-context] A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices
On 2/2/2015 3:23 PM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
The handling of the vons issue is cultural and language-dependent.
The problem with mucking around with vonsep and other parameters is
that one may very well have a mixture of references in a single
document (this is often the case for me). I see no solution other than
trying to identify some common use and to make the behavior depend on
the language= field (or the document language, by default).
what is the rules for a language changed ; the problem is that it slso
might affect sorting
maybe some extra indicator (6th in comma separated) that specifies it
author={von, Last, Jr, First, Initials,german-a-la-french}
Hans
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
Re: [NTG-context] A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices
Of course, language of the cited publication. Nothing else makes sense
at all. This field is also to be used for hyphenation of the title
field.
BUT, the author of the TeX document must control and decide if the
bibliography will use an eventual language= field or rather use the
language rule in vigor for the TeX document; alternately, he/she could
impose a particular language for the rendering of a particular dataset.
Thomas has argued this point.
The explicit parsing of vons or particles gives control for the
sorting of author names. It is not so complicated: if treated as a
particle or von, it does not enter into the sorting; if treated as
intimately part of the surname (often, but not always, the case for
post-revolution names in French, for example) then it does enter into
the sorting.
German is the only case that I know where the von gets placed after
the first names. Here, one must not abbreviate the von, of course, as in:
Laue, M. V. - and I have seen this published!!
Nor do I want to see:
von Laue, M.
However, to be correct, some publications might appear as
Laue, M.
Now, say that I want to cite Laue's work published in English (as well
as one or more of his references published in German). Clearly this
real case will cause grief. I could set language=german for all of his
work, but then how are the titles to be hyphenated (and what about quotation
marks if the style uses them)?
This is why Hans asks if we should optionally parse 5 part author names.
Here is a real case:
@Article{Friedrich1912,
Title= {Interferenzerscheinungen bei Röntgenstrahlen},
Author = {Friedrich, W. and Knipping, P. and Laue, M. von},
Journal = {Sitzber. Math-phys. Kl. bayer. Akad. Wiss.
Manche},
Year = {1912},
Pages= {303},
Volume = {22},
Language = {german}
}
@Article{Friedrich1913,
Title= {Interferenzerscheinungen bei Röntgenstrahlen},
Author = {Friedrich, W. and Knipping, P. and Laue, M.},
Journal = {Annalen der Physik},
Year = {1913},
Number = {10},
Pages= {971–988},
Volume = {346},
Doi = {10.1002/andp.19133461004},
ISSN = {1521-3889},
Language = {german},
Publisher= {WILEY-VCH Verlag},
}
@Article{Friedrich1913a,
Title= {Phénomènes d'interférence des rayons de Röntgen},
Author = {Friedrich, W. and Knipping, P. and Laue, M.},
Journal = {Radium (Paris)},
Year = {1913},
Number = {2},
Pages= {47–57},
Volume = {10},
Language = {french}
}
@article{PhysRev.37.53,
title = {The Diffraction of an Electron-Wave at a Single Layer of Atoms},
author = {Laue, M. v.},
journal = {Phys. Rev.},
volume = {37},
issue = {1},
pages = {53--59},
numpages = {0},
year = {1931},
month = {Jan},
publisher = {American Physical Society},
doi = {10.1103/PhysRev.37.53},
url = {http://link.aps.org/doi/10.1103/PhysRev.37.53}
}
This last case is directly what I download from:
http://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.37.53
Yikes!
So some cleaning (and thought) IS necessary!
Alan
On Mon, 2 Feb 2015 20:40:16 +0100
Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de wrote:
Hi Alan,
All of this is fine and good, but what is the language field suppose
to relate to:
Language of the text,
language of the cited publication
language of the citizenship of the author
language of the heritage of the name of the author!
Sure we can put a lot of heuristics into it, but we still should have
a means to manually set sorting and setting of the fields of the
authors!
As you said often one has many mixed authors names and languages of
texts!
regards
Keith.
Am 02.02.2015 um 15:23 schrieb Alan BRASLAU alan.bras...@cea.fr:
The handling of the vons issue is cultural and language-dependent.
The problem with mucking around with vonsep and other parameters is
that one may very well have a mixture of references in a single
document (this is often the case for me). I see no solution other
than trying to identify some common use and to make the behavior
depend on the language= field (or the document language, by
default).
Alan
--
Alan Braslau
CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC
CNRS URA 2464
Orme des Merisiers
91191 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex FRANCE
tel: +33 1 69 08 73 15
fax: +33 1 69 08 87 86
mailto:alan.bras...@cea.fr
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
[NTG-context] A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices
Dear Syndicate,
The current bibliography handler uses the following for authors:
\type{\author[junior]{firstnames}[inits]{von}{surname}}
Now in Arabic we have something similar to the 'von' field: the definite
article 'al-', 'ibn', etc. Just as with 'von' we want to ignore them in
the alphabetical sorting. [On the other hand, ConTeXt cannot currently
sort its own bbl files alphabetically]. See the linked picture for a
real-life example (the top-right of the page contains both Dutch and
Arabic examples):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnimlactrlqz6ak/arabic-dutch-bib.jpg?dl=0
Now the {von} field works for these Arabic prefixes, but there is an
issue: There can be no space between 'al-' and what follows (e.g.
'al-Haq'). But the {von} field by default adds a space (von Corbin). So
what to do? One solution is to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] (see
also attached):
==
\starttext
\setuppublications[alternative=apa]
\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=]
\startpublication[k=corbin81,
t=book,
a=Corbin,
y=1981,
s=Corbin81]
\author[]{Henry}[H.]{von }{Corbin}
\title{The Concept of Comparative Philosophy}
\pubname{Golgonooza Press}
\city{Ipswich, United Kingdom}
\pubyear{1981}
\stoppublication
\startpublication[k=haq,
t=book,
a=Haq,
y=1994,
s=Haq94]
\author[]{Syed Nomanul}[S.]{al-}{Haq}
\title{Names, Natures, and Things}
\pubname{Kluwer}
\city{Dordrecht}
\pubyear{1994}
\stoppublication
\startpublication[k=ragep93,
t=book,
a={Ragep},
y=1993,
s=FJRg93]
\author[]{F.~J.}[F.~J.]{ibn al-}{Ragep}
\title{Memoir on Astronomy}
\pubname{Springer Verlag}
\city{New York}
\pubyear{1993}
\stoppublication
\placepublications [criterium=all] % inherits from \setuppublications
% \completepublications[criterium=cite] % only works with criterium=all
\stoptext
==
\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] kills the space after the prefix, but that
means that for every 'von', 'van', 'abu', and the like we have to add the
space manually in the {von} field (as in the above example).
If we don't want to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] then we have to
define a command for 'al-' that gobbles the space:
% \define \GobbleSpace{\ignorespaces}
% \define \Al{al-\GobbleSpace}
If one is using lots of Arabic names and few, e.g., Dutch names, then
using the [vonsep=] approach seems better. But in the upcoming bib module
we may want a better solution so that bbl files can be more consistent and
portable. Any thoughts are appreciated, and
Best wishes
Idris
--
Idris Samawi Hamid
Professor of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
test-bib-arabic.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
test-bib-arabic.tex
Description: TeX document
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
Re: [NTG-context] A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices
Hi Idris, All,
We have here the classical database problem of finding a format that fits all.
But, as any body working with databases knows this will not work with a rigid
format.
Here we have 3 fields for the authors can can be misused.
The von is the most problematic. It seems due to its cultural diversity.
The use of the \setuppublicationlist[colsep=] helps in some ways that it gives
the writers of text the flexibility of manually controlling the space after
von field,
but as Idris has pointed out this would involve a lot of work depending on the
authors
one has in ones database. This is especially, problematic for academics that
reuse their
bibliographies!
Irdis second solution is a simple work around for where only a few changes are
necessary.
I am not an expert with this „von“ business, but in Idris case here „al-„ a
simple change in the output
of the vonsep could help globally without causing to many problems.
That is make the output of the vonsep dependent on the last character of the
von-field
here „-„
The other possibility would be to use a discretionary switch for the output of
the vonsep
one definition could be vonsep=
yes : output blank or global vonsep (default if vonsep
field not in publication entry)
no : do not output vonsep
string : output character sequence
command : use command to output vonsep
Of course we could just have a default handler for the von field and allow it
to be changed
by writers!
hope this helps the people smashing their brains on this subject/code!
regards
Keith.
Am 01.02.2015 um 16:06 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
isha...@colostate.edu:
Dear Syndicate,
The current bibliography handler uses the following for authors:
\type{\author[junior]{firstnames}[inits]{von}{surname}}
Now in Arabic we have something similar to the 'von' field: the definite
article 'al-', 'ibn', etc. Just as with 'von' we want to ignore them in the
alphabetical sorting. [On the other hand, ConTeXt cannot currently sort its
own bbl files alphabetically]. See the linked picture for a real-life example
(the top-right of the page contains both Dutch and Arabic examples):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnimlactrlqz6ak/arabic-dutch-bib.jpg?dl=0
Now the {von} field works for these Arabic prefixes, but there is an issue:
There can be no space between 'al-' and what follows (e.g. 'al-Haq'). But the
{von} field by default adds a space (von Corbin). So what to do? One solution
is to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] (see also attached):
[snip, snip]
\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] kills the space after the prefix, but that
means that for every 'von', 'van', 'abu', and the like we have to add the
space manually in the {von} field (as in the above example).
If we don't want to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] then we have to define
a command for 'al-' that gobbles the space:
% \define \GobbleSpace{\ignorespaces}
% \define \Al{al-\GobbleSpace}
If one is using lots of Arabic names and few, e.g., Dutch names, then using
the [vonsep=] approach seems better. But in the upcoming bib module we may
want a better solution so that bbl files can be more consistent and portable.
Any thoughts are appreciated, and
[snip, snip]
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
Re: [NTG-context] A note on Arabic names in bibliographies and indices
On 2/1/2015 4:06 PM, Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
Dear Syndicate,
The current bibliography handler uses the following for authors:
\type{\author[junior]{firstnames}[inits]{von}{surname}}
Looks mkii cq. th eold bin system ... no more time will be spent on that
(by me).
Now in Arabic we have something similar to the 'von' field: the definite
article 'al-', 'ibn', etc. Just as with 'von' we want to ignore them in
the alphabetical sorting. [On the other hand, ConTeXt cannot currently
sort its own bbl files alphabetically]. See the linked picture for a
real-life example (the top-right of the page contains both Dutch and
Arabic examples):
The new mechanism uses the same sorter as registers and sorted lists.
So, specific wishes can be addressed there.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnimlactrlqz6ak/arabic-dutch-bib.jpg?dl=0
Now the {von} field works for these Arabic prefixes, but there is an
issue: There can be no space between 'al-' and what follows (e.g.
'al-Haq'). But the {von} field by default adds a space (von Corbin). So
what to do? One solution is to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] (see
also attached):
I'm sure we can cook up something. Personally I'd like to get away from
this 'von' and 'junior' thing and use better names, like
initials (by default taken from firstnames)
firstnames
prefixes (unless specificed, taken from surnames)
surnames
postfixes (unless specified, taken from surnames)
we can think of a sort keys as well, so maybe:
author = {[sortkey] firstnames, prefixes, surnames, postfixes}
or
author = {sortkey:: firstnames, prefixes, surnames, postfixes}
(we can have an exporter that exports to a regular dumb bib file for
other usage)
==
\starttext
\setuppublications[alternative=apa]
\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=]
\startpublication[k=corbin81,
t=book,
a=Corbin,
y=1981,
s=Corbin81]
\author[]{Henry}[H.]{von }{Corbin}
\title{The Concept of Comparative Philosophy}
\pubname{Golgonooza Press}
\city{Ipswich, United Kingdom}
\pubyear{1981}
\stoppublication
\startpublication[k=haq,
t=book,
a=Haq,
y=1994,
s=Haq94]
\author[]{Syed Nomanul}[S.]{al-}{Haq}
\title{Names, Natures, and Things}
\pubname{Kluwer}
\city{Dordrecht}
\pubyear{1994}
\stoppublication
\startpublication[k=ragep93,
t=book,
a={Ragep},
y=1993,
s=FJRg93]
\author[]{F.~J.}[F.~J.]{ibn al-}{Ragep}
\title{Memoir on Astronomy}
\pubname{Springer Verlag}
\city{New York}
\pubyear{1993}
\stoppublication
\placepublications [criterium=all] % inherits from \setuppublications
% \completepublications[criterium=cite] % only works with criterium=all
\stoptext
==
\setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] kills the space after the prefix, but
that means that for every 'von', 'van', 'abu', and the like we have to
add the space manually in the {von} field (as in the above example).
If we don't want to use \setuppublicationlist[vonsep=] then we have to
define a command for 'al-' that gobbles the space:
% \define \GobbleSpace{\ignorespaces}
% \define \Al{al-\GobbleSpace}
If one is using lots of Arabic names and few, e.g., Dutch names, then
using the [vonsep=] approach seems better. But in the upcoming bib
module we may want a better solution so that bbl files can be more
consistent and portable. Any thoughts are appreciated, and
Best wishes
Idris
--
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___
