workflow diagram Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Nice work flow diagram. One of the more difficult things I've encountered in 10+ years of health care software development is documenting the work flow. The hallmark of a good clinic hospital seems to be the ability to adjust the work flow to meet the need. There's the work flow the system ex

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

- Original Message - From: "Richard Schilling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards. > Can anyone post the link again to the files section? Thanks! > > Richard > At the bot

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Can anyone post the link again to the files section? Thanks! Richard Will Ross wrote: > oops. now i posted the document in the openhealth files section. > > [wr] > > - - - - - - - - > > On Mar 23, 2006, at 8:01 PM, David Forslund wrote: > > >>As you probably noticed, images (and attachmen

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

David Forslund wrote: > I think there is an intermediate position here. In my experience these > standards, far from perfect, are > good enough to gain experience and see them work in practice. The > resulting models and infrastructure > are actually rather easy to change into new paradigms, I

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

I think there is an intermediate position here. In my experience these standards, far from perfect, are good enough to gain experience and see them work in practice. The resulting models and infrastructure are actually rather easy to change into new paradigms, I believe. I can't wait until

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

There is an intermediate value to the workflows if they can be used in software. One can model the behavior of the system without having to have the entire system under workflow management. This can help assess the accuracy of the workflow diagrams to be sure that side effects are what you thi

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Joseph Dal Molin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The real challenge is building the communities, not the software. This is particularly true in healthcare. But the community must be as global as possible Nanda Joseph Will Ross wrote: > Until we have compelling informatics solutions t

Community (was) Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Yes agreedrelying community dynamics etc. alone is high risk...there also the need for low effort control through standards and certification etc. Tim's Wikipedia example is a good oneit also illustrates that part of the solution to managing complex communities is to have many smaller i

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Philippe AMELINE wrote: > > To come back to the initial thread of information exchanges, I hope that > you understand my position better: the concurrent engineering system > must be fed (for very well selected information) by legacy systems, but > also manage its own set of information. In the o

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

On Mar 23, 2006, at 10:31 PM, Joseph Dal Molin wrote: > Will Ross wrote: >> Joseph, >> >> I disagree on your community challenge. I think the "community" >> aspect of open source is not only over rated, it is in fact a >> negative, a risk factor to be considered. > > I guess its a matter of pers

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

These workflows are intentionally not computable. They are simple visual aids to sketch the overall operational processes where a user interacts with software, without descending into the complexities of computable steps. The diagrams are deliberately chunked into single page views with

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Hi David, Hospital records are back office systems scattered in the landscape. A "virtual patient record" is just trying to build a front office system out of this data. Odyssée is aimed at providing a "real" patient owned system that is dedicated to continuity of care. What I mean is that thi

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

David Forslund wrote: > Will, > I agree with you, which is why I also argue for using standards for > the communication and > interfaces in a system. That way one can replace the system with others > that implement > those same standards. This allows even for a replacement of an open > sourc

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Will Ross wrote: > Joseph, > > I disagree on your community challenge. I think the "community" > aspect of open source is not only over rated, it is in fact a > negative, a risk factor to be considered. I guess its a matter of perspectivein the early stages of a project yes commun

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Will, I agree with you, which is why I also argue for using standards for the communication and interfaces in a system. That way one can replace the system with others that implement those same standards. This allows even for a replacement of an open source solution with a proprietary one

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Is this workflow put into a "computable" form or is it just to help understand the various processes? If it is "computable", what are you using to describe the workflow. This type of workflow is rather easily described in XPDL, for example, and can drive the various tasks and user inputs. Most

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

oops. now i posted the document in the openhealth files section. [wr] - - - - - - - - On Mar 23, 2006, at 8:01 PM, David Forslund wrote: > As you probably noticed, images (and attachments) are stripped off by > the mailer, so the diagram isn't visible. :-( > What is the communication between

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Joseph, I disagree on your community challenge. I think the "community" aspect of open source is not only over rated, it is in fact a negative, a risk factor to be considered. I think what we need is software that works better than what we have, and so by progressive iterative cycles w

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

As you probably noticed, images (and attachments) are stripped off by the mailer, so the diagram isn't visible. :-( What is the communication between components of ClearHealth or with other systems? Thanks, Dave Will Ross wrote: > Dave, > > Attached is a diagram which is part of a practice mana

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Dave, Attached is a diagram which is part of a practice management software replacement project I am managing for a group of rural ambulatory clinics. This particular diagram maps the initial steps at one clinic as Reception interacts with the current software ("HP") when a patient arriv

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Tim Cook wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > David Forslund wrote: > > I'm trying to understand what these reference view points have to do > > with getting the data between organizations. > > In a single care place, the data for the patient may have to come from > > multip

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Forslund wrote: > I'm trying to understand what these reference view points have to do > with getting the data between organizations. > In a single care place, the data for the patient may have to come from > multiple locations to be available

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

I'm trying to understand what these reference view points have to do with getting the data between organizations. In a single care place, the data for the patient may have to come from multiple locations to be available to build a diagnosis. The MRI may be done at a facility 40 miles away, the

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Tim.Churches wrote: > > > > > I don't know how big this problem is, but I do know that attempts to > > have universal graphical languages so far have only succeeded in > > specialist areas after many years. They haven't worked in programming - > > else we would all be using UML to program with. > >

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Thomas Beale wrote: > Tim.Churches wrote: > > Thomas Beale wrote: > > > > > > > > I agree with Dave that this area is interesting and important to sort > > > out. I'll put the PhD thesis links on openEHR.org - they are all a > > > great read. > > > > > > my 5c > > > > Any opinion on YAWL

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

David Forslund wrote: > I've been quite impressed by the YAWL work of van der Alst at > Eindhoven. It is probably technically superior to > some of the other workflow systems out their, particularly in its > richness and accuracy of expressing workflow, but I don't > believe it supports any of th

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

David, I am not very at ease with this vision. Let's express it simply: what you try to do with a person/care workflow is to make sure that will be present, at a given place and a given time, the patient, the professionals and the proper material. If you work in the care place's referential, yo

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Philippe AMELINE wrote: > Will, > > Who is the "user" you want to show workflow diagrams too? > Is he/she an health professional or a citizen/patient? > I can't speak for Will, but I think workflow is useful for the tasks that people need to do in caring for a patient. In the work we did with

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Philippe AMELINE wrote: > I am ok to put a workflow engine among the front office services, but > are you talking about a workflow of people/acts (something like a care > path) or a workflow of documents? > Good point Philippe from my now outdated experience with workflow tools, there us

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Will, Who is the "user" you want to show workflow diagrams too? Is he/she an health professional or a citizen/patient? From my point of view, and according to the tools I already elaborated and tested, the health professional should be provided with two different kind of tools : front office t

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

IMHO this may be setting the bar too highsorry for singing to the choir: what we need are a few "good enough" solutions (and there are a couple) that meet user needs and more importantly, critical mass communities of users and developers that collaboratively, continuously improve them.

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Will!Do you have some example workflow diagrams that you have found useful? Dave Will Ross wrote: > Philippe, > > Actually, I am still talking about Wayne's focus on the user. As a > project manager I spend much of my time in a balancing act by > advocat

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Communication between HIS isn't specifically a need of a citizen, just the results of it. It has been almost impossible for a patient to be able to see or possess a record of their healthcare which is being done by a variety of organizations and providers. This need for a "virtual healthcare

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Philippe, Actually, I am still talking about Wayne's focus on the user. As a project manager I spend much of my time in a balancing act by advocating for someone else's perspective. When I work with with IT developers and vendors, the most important missing voice is generally the persp

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

I've been quite impressed by the YAWL work of van der Alst at Eindhoven. It is probably technically superior to some of the other workflow systems out their, particularly in its richness and accuracy of expressing workflow, but I don't believe it supports any of the standards out there. Thus e

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Tim.Churches wrote: > Thomas Beale wrote: > > > > > I agree with Dave that this area is interesting and important to sort > > out. I'll put the PhD thesis links on openEHR.org - they are all a > > great read. > > > > my 5c > > Any opinion on YAWL ( http://www.yawl.fit.qut.edu.au/ )? I'll warn you t

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

>Any opinion on YAWL ( http://www.yawl.fit.qut.edu.au/ )? > >Tim C > > Hi guys, I very much like the way Wayne Wilson explicated the Big problem : "The very first thing to do is to build a believable (to doctors and patients) scenario for needing to get information from one system to the nex

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Thomas Beale wrote: > David Forslund wrote: > > > > We have been using workflow engines for a while. The one I happen to > > prefer is Shark (http://shark.objectweb.org) > > which is quite robust and > > uses standard WfMC's XPDL for the workflow representation

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

David Forslund wrote: > > We have been using workflow engines for a while. The one I happen to > prefer is Shark (http://shark.objectweb.org) > which is quite robust and > uses standard WfMC's XPDL for the workflow representation and that it > supports both Web Ser

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

On Mar 22, 2006, at 9:57 AM, Wayne Wilson wrote: >> Another way of looking at all this is to imagine a kind of open >> source >> HIMSS interoperability demonstration (as Joseph and Dave said above). >> What would the community have to do to achieve it? Work backwards >> from >> there. >> > The

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Tim.Churches wrote: > Wayne Wilson wrote: > > Boy, is this discussion bringing back old memories, Dave Forslund > reminds me > > exactly how old later on and I have some inline comments. > > > > Just below, Tom Beale suggests interoperability built on engineering > > principles. Some discussion f

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Wayne Wilson wrote: > Boy, is this discussion bringing back old memories, Dave Forslund reminds me > exactly how old later on and I have some inline comments. > > Just below, Tom Beale suggests interoperability built on engineering > principles. Some discussion follows about the difficulty of c

Re: [openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Wayne Wilson wrote: > Boy, is this discussion bringing back old memories, Dave Forslund > reminds me exactly how old later on and I have some inline comments. > > Just below, Tom Beale suggests interoperability built on engineering > principles. Some discussion follows about the difficulty of >

[openhealth] Demonstrations & Standards.

Boy, is this discussion bringing back old memories, Dave Forslund reminds me exactly how old later on and I have some inline comments. Just below, Tom Beale suggests interoperability built on engineering principles. Some discussion follows about the difficulty of connecting systems with differ