Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
Hi Jerry About why Intel is vulnerable to Meltdown and AMD, while Intel basically licensed the x64 instruction set from AMD the actual implementation of those instructions is completely different. The instruction set for x86 and x64 is targeted at Complex Instruction Set Computers (CISCs) however the underlying architecture of the Intel CPU is a hybrid CISC/RISC design. Intel can issue microcode updates to alter how x86/x64 instructions are mapped/translated into CISC/RISC architecture to fix execution issues and some security issues. As already been discussed widely the Meltdown security failure is core CPU functionality which has to be programmed around, so that OS Kernel Memory has to exist in a separate Virtual Machine from the User Programs. When an application needs to access the kernel it makes the function call which triggers the OS to save the request before switching to the kernel Virtual Machine which can then process the request, but the process is reversed to return the results to the user application. Which is why Amazon have issued performance warnings, Microsoft Azure customers are complaining about broken servers. AMD also has a combined CISC/RISC design but it is completely different from Intel which is why it is not susceptible to Meltdown and is susceptible to only one of the Spectre vulnerabilities. In respect of ARM processors, Apple designs it own ARM processors which is why all their products are effected by Meltdown but only one of the standard ARM production cores is known to be susceptible. Equally Qualcomm designs its own ARM chips which have be reported to vulnerable to Meltdown. In order to address vulnerabilities in speculative instruction execution the CPU should write the information into a separate L1 cache which implements process locking to stop other processes from accessing the speculative results. Regards Russell ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
Hi, When applying fixes to IllumOS/OpenIndiana to fix the Meltdown vulnerability forcing the separation of Kernel Memory from User Memory into separate Memory spaces, please make sure that the code detects the CPU type. My Dual AMD CPUs are not susceptible the Meltdown so I do not want to take the Intel performance hit every time the kernel is accessed. The Spectre Variant 1 requires software to be run on the host machine which can then spy on other applications running on the host. The spying application would have to be able to determine the speculative instructions executed by another process to access the cached results before the cached information is flushed. This variant is mitigated by rebuilding your applications to include protection measures this effects both AMD and Intel CPUs The Spectre Variant 2 is an Intel only problem, with only the ARM A75 core vulnerable and given that has not been released, it makes sense to fix the core prior to release so AMD can get some good PR. Regards Russell ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
The "Mitigations" section (3) of this Intel whitepaper is pretty informative: https://newsroom.intel.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/01/Intel-\ Analysis-of-Speculative-Execution-Side-Channels.pdf Regards, Marion > From: Alan Coopersmith > Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:42:17 -0800 > Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware > To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana , > "Tim Mooney" > > On 01/ 4/18 01:32 PM, Tim Mooney wrote: > > Intel's "Newsroom" response page is pretty terrible, in that regard. > > > > > > https://newsroom.intel.com/news/intel-responds-to-security-research-findings/ > > Intel posted statements with a little more detail after the embargo broke: > > https://security-center.intel.com/advisory.aspx?intelid=INTEL-SA-00088&languageid=en-fr > > https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/facts-about-side-channel-analysis-and-intel-products.html > > -alan- > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
On 01/ 4/18 01:32 PM, Tim Mooney wrote: > Intel's "Newsroom" response page is pretty terrible, in that regard. > > > https://newsroom.intel.com/news/intel-responds-to-security-research-findings/ Intel posted statements with a little more detail after the embargo broke: https://security-center.intel.com/advisory.aspx?intelid=INTEL-SA-00088&languageid=en-fr https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/facts-about-side-channel-analysis-and-intel-products.html -alan- ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
In regard to: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware, Richard L. Hamilton...: Given how broadly Spectre might be applicable, I'm surprised that there's no mention of at least investigating the possibilities on CPUs other than Intel, AMD, and ARM - like SPARC, Power, or for that matter the CPUs in IBM mainframes. Red Hat's landing page for their response https://access.redhat.com/security/vulnerabilities/speculativeexecution Does mention similar attacks for the other architectures that Red Hat supports (SPARCs not included). Granted that between lawyers and marketing, there would be a reluctance to say anything. Intel's "Newsroom" response page is pretty terrible, in that regard. https://newsroom.intel.com/news/intel-responds-to-security-research-findings/ Tim -- Tim Mooney tim.moo...@ndsu.edu Enterprise Computing & Infrastructure 701-231-1076 (Voice) Room 242-J6, Quentin Burdick Building 701-231-8541 (Fax) North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND 58105-5164 ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
Thanks for the info Russell. I'm curious about the AMD thing though. My understand had always been that Intel had purchased/leased/whatever acquired the x86 64 bit extensions from AMD. Maybe its all the difference between the "meltdown" and the "spectre" vulnerability though. Sparc, unless someone has updated news, remains unscathed, in addition to being (arguably) the most open CPU, MIPS fans argue that they are more open though. Jerry On 04/01/18 14:58, russell wrote: Hi, Lots of information, out there after the embargo was partially lifted (all the details have not been revealed). https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2018/01/04/google-microsoft-apple-updates-for-meltdown-spectre-intel-processor-vulnerabilities/#7ed5f9c95c3 Meltdown which breaks the most fundamental isolation between user applications and the operating system and reportedly effects virtually all Intel CPUs. ARM have indicated that the ARM A75 is effected by Meltdown, a variant of Meltdown (3a) effects the Cortex A15, A57 and A72 CPUs. AMD have indicated that they are not vulnerable due to a different architecture. Spectre consists of two variants : - Variant 1 which Intel, ARM and AMD CPU are all susceptible to this can be mitigated by OS patching. Variant 2 which Intel and ARM are both susceptible, however AMD have indicated that this vulnerability has not been shown. I suspect there will be additional vulnerabilities announced later, now that more people know the types of exploits to use. Russell ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
Hi, Lots of information, out there after the embargo was partially lifted (all the details have not been revealed). https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2018/01/04/google-microsoft-apple-updates-for-meltdown-spectre-intel-processor-vulnerabilities/#7ed5f9c95c3 Meltdown which breaks the most fundamental isolation between user applications and the operating system and reportedly effects virtually all Intel CPUs. ARM have indicated that the ARM A75 is effected by Meltdown, a variant of Meltdown (3a) effects the Cortex A15, A57 and A72 CPUs. AMD have indicated that they are not vulnerable due to a different architecture. Spectre consists of two variants : - Variant 1 which Intel, ARM and AMD CPU are all susceptible to this can be mitigated by OS patching. Variant 2 which Intel and ARM are both susceptible, however AMD have indicated that this vulnerability has not been shown. I suspect there will be additional vulnerabilities announced later, now that more people know the types of exploits to use. Russell ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
> On Jan 4, 2018, at 14:21, Nemo wrote: > > On 4 January 2018 at 13:45, cpforum wrote: > [..] >> The only really secure solution : replace your CPU ! > > Do you mean to sparc? > > N. While Meltdown may be specific to Intel, I would not assume that SPARC would be immune to Spectre. Perhaps newer CPUs (e.g. M7 and later, with "Silicon Secured Memory") might at least complicate an attack considerably. Given how broadly Spectre might be applicable, I'm surprised that there's no mention of at least investigating the possibilities on CPUs other than Intel, AMD, and ARM - like SPARC, Power, or for that matter the CPUs in IBM mainframes. Granted that between lawyers and marketing, there would be a reluctance to say anything. But to at least acknowledge investigating the possibility with followup info later would, while not actually all that informative, at least assure people that they weren't just leaving their junk hanging out. signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
On 4 January 2018 at 13:45, cpforum wrote: [..] > The only really secure solution : replace your CPU ! Do you mean to sparc? N. ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
Information is now published, documentation available, patch for Linux, Windows, Xen, VMWare, etc. are available. The only really secure solution : replace your CPU ! AMD and ARM hardware are also affected. Others ? A local unprivileged access seems to be a condition to try an attack breading predictive cache of the processor to get information of others process seems to be non trivial. > Message du 03/01/18 17:41 > De : "Bob Friesenhahn" > A : "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware > > On Wed, 3 Jan 2018, cpforum wrote: > > > > Are IllumOS and Solaris affected at the same level than Linux and Windows ? > > If the privileged information was disclosed to someone under the terms > of the embargo, are you expecting them to reveal this information on > the list in advance of the embargo expiring? That does not seem very > reasonable. > > Bob > -- > Bob Friesenhahn > bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ > GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ > > ___ > openindiana-discuss mailing list > openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org > https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss > ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Intel hardware
On Wed, 3 Jan 2018, cpforum wrote: Are IllumOS and Solaris affected at the same level than Linux and Windows ? If the privileged information was disclosed to someone under the terms of the embargo, are you expecting them to reveal this information on the list in advance of the embargo expiring? That does not seem very reasonable. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ openindiana-discuss mailing list openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
