Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On 22/07/16 10:04, Zane Bitter wrote: > If we're not to end up with 20 different answers to the those > questions, we'll need some cross-project co-ordination and part of > that will involve depending on various projects for functionality > instead of implementing multiple different one-off

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Thank you for making it more clear, Zane. I totally agree with you at here. IMHO, as a cloud computing platform, it should be an ecosystem just like the others. That said, not only looking from bottom to top, but also looking from top to bottom. It should looks like an unified platform. In

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Zane, Thanks. You have managed to articulate my concern where I've failed so far. +1 :) Kevin From: Zane Bitter [zbit...@redhat.com] Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 3:04 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On 20/07/16 18:41, Clint Byrum wrote: Excerpts from Fox, Kevin M's message of 2016-07-20 20:12:48 +: And maybe this raises an interesting defininition mismatch in the conversation. There is archetectural stuff like, do we support 7 different web frameworks, or do we standardize on

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

ors have had solutions for years. > > Interest in OpenStack as a whole has leveled off in about: > > > From: Zane Bitter [zbit...@redhat.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:08 PM > To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Excerpts from Fox, Kevin M's message of 2016-07-20 20:12:48 +: > And maybe this raises an interesting defininition mismatch in the > conversation. > > There is archetectural stuff like, do we support 7 different web frameworks, > or do we standardize on flask... python vs go. > Yeah meh,

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

ns in this model are driven locally not globally. James > Thanks, > Kevin > > From: James Bottomley [james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:42 PM > To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions);

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

From: James Bottomley Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:42:27 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions); Clint Byrum Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all) On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 18:18 +, Fox, Kevin M

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Development Mailing List (not for usage questions); Clint Byrum Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all) On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 18:18 +, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > I wish it was so simple. Its not. > > There is a good coding practice: > "The code

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

ome equivalence to openstack projects/PTLs) doing this on a case by case basis. James > Thanks, > Kevin > > From: James Bottomley [james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:57 AM > To: OpenStack Development

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 21:24 +0300, Duncan Thomas wrote: > On 20 July 2016 at 19:57, James Bottomley < > james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com> wrote: > > > > > OK, I accept your analogy, even though I would view currency as the > > will to create and push patches. > > > > The problem you

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Duncan Thomas wrote: On 20 July 2016 at 19:57, James Bottomley > wrote: OK, I accept your analogy, even though I would view currency as the will to create and push patches. The problem you

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On 20 July 2016 at 19:57, James Bottomley < james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com> wrote: > > OK, I accept your analogy, even though I would view currency as the > will to create and push patches. > > The problem you describe: getting the recipients to listen and accept > your patches, is also a

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

:57 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions); Clint Byrum Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all) On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 16:08 +, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > +1 to the finding of a middle ground. Thanks ... I have actually been an enterprise

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Excerpts from James Bottomley's message of 2016-07-20 08:31:34 -0700: > So this is where the Open Source method takes over. Change is produced > by those people who most care about it because they're invested. To > take your Cinder example, you're unlikely to find them within Cinder > because

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 16:08 +, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > +1 to the finding of a middle ground. Thanks ... I have actually been an enterprise architect (I just keep very quiet about it when talking Open Source). > The problem I've seen with your suggested OpenSource solution is the > current

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

From: James Bottomley [james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 8:31 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions); Clint Byrum Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all) On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 11:58 +0200, Julien

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On Wed, 2016-07-20 at 11:58 +0200, Julien Danjou wrote: > On Tue, Jul 19 2016, Clint Byrum wrote: > > > Perhaps if we form and start working together as a group, we can > > disect why nothing happened, build consensus on the most important > > thing to do next, and actually fix some

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On Tue, Jul 19 2016, Clint Byrum wrote: > Perhaps if we form and start working together as a group, we can disect > why nothing happened, build consensus on the most important thing to do > next, and actually fix some architectural problems. The social structure > that teams have is a huge part

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Clint Byrum wrote: [...] But what I thought what the TC's job was, was benevolent dictators, which each subproject (or subsystem in linux terms) are required to give up final say to, so that sometimes the projects have to sacrifice a bit so that the whole can flourish and those benevolent

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Excerpts from Fox, Kevin M's message of 2016-07-19 21:59:29 +: > Yeah. I'm not saying any project has done it out of malice. Everyone's just > doing whats best for their project. But it does not seem like there is an > overarching entity watching over the whole or (pushing, encouraging, >

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

July 19, 2016 1:08 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all) On 14/07/16 16:30, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > I'm going to go ahead and ask the difficult question now as the answer is > relevant to the attached proposal...

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

om] Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 1:08 PM To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all) On 14/07/16 16:30, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > I'm going to go ahead and ask the difficult question now as the answer is > relevant to the attache

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On 14/07/16 16:30, Fox, Kevin M wrote: I'm going to go ahead and ask the difficult question now as the answer is relevant to the attached proposal... Should we reconsider whether the big tent is the right approach going forward? There have been some major downsides I think to the Big Tent

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Excerpts from Julien Danjou's message of 2016-07-19 09:30:36 +0200: > On Mon, Jul 18 2016, Joshua Harlow wrote: > > > Thus why I think the starting of the architecture working group is a good > > thing; because I have a believe that people are forgetting among all of this > > that such a group

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

...@leafe.com] Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 9:59 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all) On Jul 18, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Fox, Kevin M <kevin@pnnl.gov> wrote: > I'm arguing the opposite.

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Julien Danjou wrote: On Mon, Jul 18 2016, Joshua Harlow wrote: Thus why I think the starting of the architecture working group is a good thing; because I have a believe that people are forgetting among all of this that such a group holds a lot of the keys to the kingdom (whether u, the reader,

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Excerpts from Ed Leafe's message of 2016-07-18 21:59:44 -0700: > On Jul 18, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > > > I'm arguing the opposite. It should be a requirement to use the OpenStack > > Secret Store. > > > > Instead, we're trying to make it optional and either

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On Mon, Jul 18 2016, Joshua Harlow wrote: > Thus why I think the starting of the architecture working group is a good > thing; because I have a believe that people are forgetting among all of this > that such a group holds a lot of the keys to the kingdom (whether u, the > reader, want to admit

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On Jul 18, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > I'm arguing the opposite. It should be a requirement to use the OpenStack > Secret Store. > > Instead, we're trying to make it optional and either reimplementing large > swaths of it in individual projects to make it

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

I applaud this (since I know this kind of question and work is really really hard). So thanks for starting and keeping 'hard' questions going because without someone pushing the limit here (and/or raising the questions) I too fear what u fear and that we may be obsoleting ourselves by

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Fox, Kevin M wrote: [...] I feel like I'm just the messenger here. Please don't shoot me. I'm generally trying to provide good, though hard feedback to better a perceived problem. Many others would just stay silent or leave rather then have the difficult discussion. And I think we all

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

The current incarnation of the Instance User spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/93/ Thanks, Kevin From: Michael Still [mi...@stillhq.com] Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 10:13 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Kfox> Responding to this inline. Sorry, its outlook. Not my choice. :/ -Original Message- From: Thomas Herve [mailto:the...@redhat.com] Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 1:22 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big t

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Michael Still wrote: > On 16 Jul 2016 1:27 PM, "Thomas Herve" wrote: >> >> On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote: >> > The lack of Instance Users has caused lots of projects to try and work

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

r it. Thanks, Kevin From: Hongbin Lu [hongbin...@huawei.com] Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 10:41 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all) No, Magnum still uses Barbican as an optional dependency,

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

g an > OpenStack App developer too that touches on all the problems with getting > a consistent target and all the cross project communication issues there > of. But thats probably for some other time. > > Thanks, > Kevin > > ____________ > From: Ja

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On 16 Jul 2016 1:27 PM, "Thomas Herve" wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > > Some specific things: > > > > Magnum trying to not use Barbican as it adds an addition dependency. See the discussion on the devel mailing list for

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On 15/07/16 18:36 +, Fox, Kevin M wrote: Some specific things: Magnum trying to not use Barbican as it adds an addition dependency. See the discussion on the devel mailing list for details. Horizon discussions at the summit around wanting to use Zaqar for dynamic ui updates instead of

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On 07/15/2016 08:52 AM, Hayes, Graham wrote: I think getting concrete examples of problems and tackling them is a good road forward. Could not agree more. I eagerly await this. Best, -jay __ OpenStack Development Mailing

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > Some specific things: > > Magnum trying to not use Barbican as it adds an addition dependency. See the > discussion on the devel mailing list for details. > > Horizon discussions at the summit around wanting to use Zaqar

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

> -Original Message- > From: Fox, Kevin M [mailto:kevin@pnnl.gov] > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 2:37 PM > To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > <openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org> > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big t

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

ginal Message- > From: Fox, Kevin M [mailto:kevin@pnnl.gov] > Sent: July-15-16 2:37 PM > To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins > for all) > > Some specific things: >

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

d be bolted on top of the Big Tent I don't know. >> >> I could write a very long description about the state of being an >> OpenStack App developer too that touches on all the problems with getting a >> consistent target and all the cross project communication issues ther

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

d all the cross project communication issues there of. > But thats probably for some other time. > > Thanks, > Kevin > > ________________ > From: Jay Pipes [jaypi...@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 8:17 AM > To: openstack-dev@lists.opensta

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all) Kevin, can you please be *specific* about your complaints below? Saying things like "less project communication" and "projects not working together because of fear of adding dependencies" and &q

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

On 14/07/2016 21:33, Fox, Kevin M wrote: > I'm going to go ahead and ask the difficult question now as the answer is > relevant to the attached proposal... > > Should we reconsider whether the big tent is the right approach going forward? > > There have been some major downsides I think to the

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Big tent? (Related to Plugins for all)

Kevin, can you please be *specific* about your complaints below? Saying things like "less project communication" and "projects not working together because of fear of adding dependencies" and "worse user experience" are your personal opinions. Please back those opinions up with specific