Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge"
Hi, Yes, https://github.com/State-of-the-Edge/glossary is a good initiative. Maybe we should all just start using the terms defined there and contribute if we have problems with the definitions. Br, Gerg0 From: Teresa Peluso Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 4:39 PM To: Csatari, Gergely (Nokia - HU/Budapest) ; OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) ; ful...@redhat.com; edge-comput...@lists.openstack.org Cc: openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org Subject: RE: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge" Fyi – could this help? https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/2018/06/edge-computing-just-got-its-rosetta-stone/ https://imasons.org/ starting to host workshops about this as well https://imasons.org/events/2018-im-edge-congress/ From: Csatari, Gergely (Nokia - HU/Budapest) mailto:gergely.csat...@nokia.com>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 1:05 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>>; ful...@redhat.com<mailto:ful...@redhat.com>; edge-comput...@lists.openstack.org<mailto:edge-comput...@lists.openstack.org> Cc: openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org<mailto:openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Edge-computing] [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge" Hi, I’m adding the ECG mailing list to the discussion. I think the root of the problem is that there is no single definition of „the edge” (except for [1<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_The-5FEdge=DwMGaQ=gxW9PgscCAGwFImBgfkGkoANogu61GVPNv0sglxAtik=JcbYkw8s_8JtubERIbsy_0Qc_q0zGK9nUrtf2IWVNmQ=VtNo9cSRcnVhW9PH68IA26gNRrJ96V0O7MHTeONQ-hY=J6lr_T9m7mkisVR7l1QzmBki20r5He3fuZXvbYg-EPs=>]), but it changes from group to group or use case to use case. What I recognise as the commonalities in these edge definitions, are 1) a distributed cloud infrastructure (kind of a cloud of clouds) 2) need for automation or everything 3) resource constraints for the control plane. The different edge variants are putting different emphasis on these common needs based ont he use case discussed. To have a more clear understanding of these definitions we could try the following: 1. Always add the definition of these to the given context 2. Check what other groups are using and adopt to that 3. Define our own language and expect everyone else to adopt Br, Gerg0 [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edge<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_The-5FEdge=DwQGaQ=gxW9PgscCAGwFImBgfkGkoANogu61GVPNv0sglxAtik=JcbYkw8s_8JtubERIbsy_0Qc_q0zGK9nUrtf2IWVNmQ=VtNo9cSRcnVhW9PH68IA26gNRrJ96V0O7MHTeONQ-hY=J6lr_T9m7mkisVR7l1QzmBki20r5He3fuZXvbYg-EPs=> From: Jim Rollenhagen mailto:j...@jimrollenhagen.com>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:43 PM To: ful...@redhat.com<mailto:ful...@redhat.com>; OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Cc: openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org<mailto:openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge" On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 4:45 PM John Fulton mailto:johfu...@redhat.com>> wrote: On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:56 AM Jim Rollenhagen mailto:j...@jimrollenhagen.com>> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:23 AM Dmitry Tantsur > mailto:dtant...@redhat.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Sorry for chiming in really late in this topic, but I think $subj is worth >> discussing until we settle harder on the potentially confusing terminology. >> >> I think the difference between "Edge" and "Far Edge" is too vague to use >> these >> terms in practice. Think about the "edge" metaphor itself: something rarely >> has >> several layers of edges. A knife has an edge, there are no far edges. I >> imagine >> zooming in and seeing more edges at the edge, and then it's quite cool >> indeed, >> but is it really a useful metaphor for those who never used a strong >> microscope? :) >> >> I think in the trivial sense "Far Edge" is a tautology, and should be >> avoided. >> As a weak proof of my words, I already see a lot of smart people confusing >> these >> two and actually use Central/Edge where they mean Edge/Far Edge. I suggest we >> adopt a different terminology, even if it less consistent with typical >> marketing >> term around the "Edge" movement. > > > FWIW, we created rough definitions of "edge" and "far edge"
Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge"
Hi, I’m adding the ECG mailing list to the discussion. I think the root of the problem is that there is no single definition of „the edge” (except for [1<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edge>]), but it changes from group to group or use case to use case. What I recognise as the commonalities in these edge definitions, are 1) a distributed cloud infrastructure (kind of a cloud of clouds) 2) need for automation or everything 3) resource constraints for the control plane. The different edge variants are putting different emphasis on these common needs based ont he use case discussed. To have a more clear understanding of these definitions we could try the following: 1. Always add the definition of these to the given context 2. Check what other groups are using and adopt to that 3. Define our own language and expect everyone else to adopt Br, Gerg0 [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edge From: Jim Rollenhagen Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:43 PM To: ful...@redhat.com; OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Cc: openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge" On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 4:45 PM John Fulton mailto:johfu...@redhat.com>> wrote: On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:56 AM Jim Rollenhagen mailto:j...@jimrollenhagen.com>> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:23 AM Dmitry Tantsur > mailto:dtant...@redhat.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Sorry for chiming in really late in this topic, but I think $subj is worth >> discussing until we settle harder on the potentially confusing terminology. >> >> I think the difference between "Edge" and "Far Edge" is too vague to use >> these >> terms in practice. Think about the "edge" metaphor itself: something rarely >> has >> several layers of edges. A knife has an edge, there are no far edges. I >> imagine >> zooming in and seeing more edges at the edge, and then it's quite cool >> indeed, >> but is it really a useful metaphor for those who never used a strong >> microscope? :) >> >> I think in the trivial sense "Far Edge" is a tautology, and should be >> avoided. >> As a weak proof of my words, I already see a lot of smart people confusing >> these >> two and actually use Central/Edge where they mean Edge/Far Edge. I suggest we >> adopt a different terminology, even if it less consistent with typical >> marketing >> term around the "Edge" movement. > > > FWIW, we created rough definitions of "edge" and "far edge" during the edge > WG session in Denver. > It's mostly based on latency to the end user, though we also talked about > quantities of compute resources, if someone can find the pictures. Perhaps these are the pictures Jim was referring to? https://www.dropbox.com/s/255x1cao14taer3/MVP-Architecture_edge-computing_PTG.pptx?dl=0#<https://www.dropbox.com/s/255x1cao14taer3/MVP-Architecture_edge-computing_PTG.pptx?dl=0> That's it, thank you! // jim I'm involved in some TripleO work called the split control plane: https://specs.openstack.org/openstack/tripleo-specs/specs/rocky/split-controlplane.html After the PTG I saw that the split control plane was compatible with the type of deployment discussed at the edge WG session in Denver and described the compatibility at: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-edge-working-group-split-control-plane > See the picture and table here: > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Edge_Computing_Group/Edge_Reference_Architectures#Overview > >> Now, I don't have really great suggestions. Something that came up in TripleO >> discussions [1] is Core/Hub/Edge, which I think reflects the idea better. > > > I'm also fine with these names, as they do describe the concepts well. :) > > // jim I'm fine with these terms too. In split control plane there's a deployment method for deploying a central site and then deploying remote sites independently. That deployment method could be used to deploy Core/Hub/Edge sites too. E.g. deploy the Core using Heat stack N. Deploy a Hub using stack N+1 and then deploy an Edge using stack N+2 etc. John >> >> I'd be very interested to hear your ideas. >> >> Dmitry >> >> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-edge-mvp >> >> ___ >> openstack-sigs mailing list >> openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org<mailto:openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org> >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs > > ___
Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge"
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 4:45 PM John Fulton wrote: > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:56 AM Jim Rollenhagen > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:23 AM Dmitry Tantsur > wrote: > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Sorry for chiming in really late in this topic, but I think $subj is > worth > >> discussing until we settle harder on the potentially confusing > terminology. > >> > >> I think the difference between "Edge" and "Far Edge" is too vague to > use these > >> terms in practice. Think about the "edge" metaphor itself: something > rarely has > >> several layers of edges. A knife has an edge, there are no far edges. I > imagine > >> zooming in and seeing more edges at the edge, and then it's quite cool > indeed, > >> but is it really a useful metaphor for those who never used a strong > microscope? :) > >> > >> I think in the trivial sense "Far Edge" is a tautology, and should be > avoided. > >> As a weak proof of my words, I already see a lot of smart people > confusing these > >> two and actually use Central/Edge where they mean Edge/Far Edge. I > suggest we > >> adopt a different terminology, even if it less consistent with typical > marketing > >> term around the "Edge" movement. > > > > > > FWIW, we created rough definitions of "edge" and "far edge" during the > edge WG session in Denver. > > It's mostly based on latency to the end user, though we also talked > about quantities of compute resources, if someone can find the pictures. > > Perhaps these are the pictures Jim was referring to? > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/255x1cao14taer3/MVP-Architecture_edge-computing_PTG.pptx?dl=0# That's it, thank you! // jim > > > I'm involved in some TripleO work called the split control plane: > > https://specs.openstack.org/openstack/tripleo-specs/specs/rocky/split-controlplane.html > > After the PTG I saw that the split control plane was compatible with > the type of deployment discussed at the edge WG session in Denver and > described the compatibility at: > > https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-edge-working-group-split-control-plane > > > See the picture and table here: > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Edge_Computing_Group/Edge_Reference_Architectures#Overview > > > >> Now, I don't have really great suggestions. Something that came up in > TripleO > >> discussions [1] is Core/Hub/Edge, which I think reflects the idea > better. > > > > > > I'm also fine with these names, as they do describe the concepts well. :) > > > > // jim > > I'm fine with these terms too. In split control plane there's a > deployment method for deploying a central site and then deploying > remote sites independently. That deployment method could be used to > deploy Core/Hub/Edge sites too. E.g. deploy the Core using Heat stack > N. Deploy a Hub using stack N+1 and then deploy an Edge using stack > N+2 etc. > > John > > >> > >> I'd be very interested to hear your ideas. > >> > >> Dmitry > >> > >> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-edge-mvp > >> > >> ___ > >> openstack-sigs mailing list > >> openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org > >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs > > > > > __ > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > Unsubscribe: > openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge"
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:56 AM Jim Rollenhagen wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:23 AM Dmitry Tantsur wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Sorry for chiming in really late in this topic, but I think $subj is worth >> discussing until we settle harder on the potentially confusing terminology. >> >> I think the difference between "Edge" and "Far Edge" is too vague to use >> these >> terms in practice. Think about the "edge" metaphor itself: something rarely >> has >> several layers of edges. A knife has an edge, there are no far edges. I >> imagine >> zooming in and seeing more edges at the edge, and then it's quite cool >> indeed, >> but is it really a useful metaphor for those who never used a strong >> microscope? :) >> >> I think in the trivial sense "Far Edge" is a tautology, and should be >> avoided. >> As a weak proof of my words, I already see a lot of smart people confusing >> these >> two and actually use Central/Edge where they mean Edge/Far Edge. I suggest we >> adopt a different terminology, even if it less consistent with typical >> marketing >> term around the "Edge" movement. > > > FWIW, we created rough definitions of "edge" and "far edge" during the edge > WG session in Denver. > It's mostly based on latency to the end user, though we also talked about > quantities of compute resources, if someone can find the pictures. Perhaps these are the pictures Jim was referring to? https://www.dropbox.com/s/255x1cao14taer3/MVP-Architecture_edge-computing_PTG.pptx?dl=0# I'm involved in some TripleO work called the split control plane: https://specs.openstack.org/openstack/tripleo-specs/specs/rocky/split-controlplane.html After the PTG I saw that the split control plane was compatible with the type of deployment discussed at the edge WG session in Denver and described the compatibility at: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-edge-working-group-split-control-plane > See the picture and table here: > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Edge_Computing_Group/Edge_Reference_Architectures#Overview > >> Now, I don't have really great suggestions. Something that came up in TripleO >> discussions [1] is Core/Hub/Edge, which I think reflects the idea better. > > > I'm also fine with these names, as they do describe the concepts well. :) > > // jim I'm fine with these terms too. In split control plane there's a deployment method for deploying a central site and then deploying remote sites independently. That deployment method could be used to deploy Core/Hub/Edge sites too. E.g. deploy the Core using Heat stack N. Deploy a Hub using stack N+1 and then deploy an Edge using stack N+2 etc. John >> >> I'd be very interested to hear your ideas. >> >> Dmitry >> >> [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-edge-mvp >> >> ___ >> openstack-sigs mailing list >> openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge"
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:23 AM Dmitry Tantsur wrote: > Hi all, > > Sorry for chiming in really late in this topic, but I think $subj is worth > discussing until we settle harder on the potentially confusing terminology. > > I think the difference between "Edge" and "Far Edge" is too vague to use > these > terms in practice. Think about the "edge" metaphor itself: something > rarely has > several layers of edges. A knife has an edge, there are no far edges. I > imagine > zooming in and seeing more edges at the edge, and then it's quite cool > indeed, > but is it really a useful metaphor for those who never used a strong > microscope? :) > > I think in the trivial sense "Far Edge" is a tautology, and should be > avoided. > As a weak proof of my words, I already see a lot of smart people confusing > these > two and actually use Central/Edge where they mean Edge/Far Edge. I suggest > we > adopt a different terminology, even if it less consistent with typical > marketing > term around the "Edge" movement. > FWIW, we created rough definitions of "edge" and "far edge" during the edge WG session in Denver. It's mostly based on latency to the end user, though we also talked about quantities of compute resources, if someone can find the pictures. See the picture and table here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Edge_Computing_Group/Edge_Reference_Architectures#Overview > > Now, I don't have really great suggestions. Something that came up in > TripleO > discussions [1] is Core/Hub/Edge, which I think reflects the idea better. > I'm also fine with these names, as they do describe the concepts well. :) // jim > I'd be very interested to hear your ideas. > > Dmitry > > [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-edge-mvp > > ___ > openstack-sigs mailing list > openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge"
On 10/18/18 4:33 PM, arkady.kanev...@dell.com wrote: Love the idea to have clearer terminology. Suggest we let telco folks to suggest terminology to use. This is not a 3 level hierarchy but much more. There are several layers of aggregation from local to metro, to regional, to DC. And potential multiple layers in each. -Original Message- From: Dmitry Tantsur Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 9:23 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions); openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org Subject: [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge" [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information. Hi all, Sorry for chiming in really late in this topic, but I think $subj is worth discussing until we settle harder on the potentially confusing terminology. I think the difference between "Edge" and "Far Edge" is too vague to use these terms in practice. Think about the "edge" metaphor itself: something rarely has several layers of edges. A knife has an edge, there are no far edges. I imagine zooming in and seeing more edges at the edge, and then it's quite cool indeed, but is it really a useful metaphor for those who never used a strong microscope? :) I think in the trivial sense "Far Edge" is a tautology, and should be avoided. As a weak proof of my words, I already see a lot of smart people confusing these two and actually use Central/Edge where they mean Edge/Far Edge. I suggest we adopt a different terminology, even if it less consistent with typical marketing term around the "Edge" movement. Now, I don't have really great suggestions. Something that came up in TripleO discussions [1] is Core/Hub/Edge, which I think reflects the idea better. I'd be very interested to hear your ideas. Similarly to NUMA distance is equal to the shortest path between the NUMA nodes, we could think of edges as facets and Edge distance as the shortest path between edge sites, counting from the central Edge (distance 0), or central Edges, if we have those decentralized and there is no a single central Edge? Dmitry [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-edge-mvp ___ openstack-sigs mailing list openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs ___ openstack-sigs mailing list openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs -- Best regards, Bogdan Dobrelya, Irc #bogdando __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge"
Love the idea to have clearer terminology. Suggest we let telco folks to suggest terminology to use. This is not a 3 level hierarchy but much more. There are several layers of aggregation from local to metro, to regional, to DC. And potential multiple layers in each. -Original Message- From: Dmitry Tantsur Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 9:23 AM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions); openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org Subject: [Openstack-sigs] [FEMDC] [Edge] [tripleo] On the use of terms "Edge" and "Far Edge" [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information. Hi all, Sorry for chiming in really late in this topic, but I think $subj is worth discussing until we settle harder on the potentially confusing terminology. I think the difference between "Edge" and "Far Edge" is too vague to use these terms in practice. Think about the "edge" metaphor itself: something rarely has several layers of edges. A knife has an edge, there are no far edges. I imagine zooming in and seeing more edges at the edge, and then it's quite cool indeed, but is it really a useful metaphor for those who never used a strong microscope? :) I think in the trivial sense "Far Edge" is a tautology, and should be avoided. As a weak proof of my words, I already see a lot of smart people confusing these two and actually use Central/Edge where they mean Edge/Far Edge. I suggest we adopt a different terminology, even if it less consistent with typical marketing term around the "Edge" movement. Now, I don't have really great suggestions. Something that came up in TripleO discussions [1] is Core/Hub/Edge, which I think reflects the idea better. I'd be very interested to hear your ideas. Dmitry [1] https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tripleo-edge-mvp ___ openstack-sigs mailing list openstack-s...@lists.openstack.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-sigs __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
