Re: [osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi project

[Raymond Auge via osgi-dev]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 11:24 AM Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev <
osgi-dev@mail.osgi.org> wrote:

> Over on the bndtools list, Raymond Auge indicated that live code
> deployment isn't supported in Eclipse with a standard Gradle project
> structure.
>

Yet! :) but it's not too far away I would think.

- Ray


>
> Stephen
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 11:04 AM Tim Ward  wrote:
>
>> Interestingly this is the opposite conclusion that most people come to.
>> Until recently Bndtools did not support Maven at all and was 100% Gradle.
>> There has been a lot of work to bring Maven support up to the same level as
>> Gradle by the team, but I don’t think that many of us would say that Maven
>> support was at parity yet, let alone better.
>>
>> You absolutely do get live code deployment when using Bndtools + Gradle
>> (Maven only recently got this feature and Gradle has had it for years).
>> Live baselining in Eclipse is still only available with Gradle, as are the
>> quick-fixes for lots of bed-detected problems.
>>
>> You are correct that IntelliJ is more Maven-focussed, but that is because
>> it doesn’t have additional plugins like Bndtools, so you’re just getting
>> the support they have for Maven.
>>
>> When it comes to Karaf, that isn’t really part of Bndtools. The Karaf
>> project has always been heavily Maven-based, and so if you want to use
>> their tools then Maven is probably the way to go.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On 25 Jul 2019, at 14:31, Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev <
>> osgi-dev@mail.osgi.org> wrote:
>>
>> A brief follow-up to this thread, after another month into my project:
>>
>> I have found that although Gradle will work fine as a build tool for
>> OSGi, it does seem that Maven is better supported for OSGi development in
>> Eclipse. For example, the Eclipse bndtools plugins support live code
>> deployment if you're using Maven, but not Gradle. I have also seen a post
>> describing doing live code deployment from IDEA that requires Maven. So, I
>> conclude that Maven is definitely preferred over Gradle when it comes to
>> OSGi IDE tooling.
>>
>> Also, although there is a Gradle plugin for generating kar archives for
>> Karaf, I have encountered issues using it with current versions of Gradle.
>>
>> Finally, many OSGi examples I find online seem to be using Maven rather
>> than Gradle as the build tool.
>>
>> These issues have not caused me to abandon Gradle, because I prefer it to
>> Maven, and I am grateful that the bnd project continues to have great
>> support for Gradle. However, overall, I am left with the impression that
>> there is better support for Maven than for Gradle in the broader OSGi
>> ecosystem.
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:11 AM Stephen Schaub 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to all for the helpful responses. I was concerned about using
>>> Gradle as a build tool because so many OSGi resources I was finding seemed
>>> to be using Maven, and the change of enRoute docs from Gradle to Maven
>>> seemed to communicate a move away from Gradle as a "preferred" build tool.
>>> But given that Maven still seems to be the dominant build tool in the Java
>>> world, I can understand the rationale for transitioning enRoute from Gradle
>>> to Maven. Also, I can understand that maintaining both Maven and Gradle
>>> versions of enRoute would be a burden.
>>>
>>> Stephen
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 4:28 PM Stephen Schaub 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I'm new to OSGi and am starting a project. I found the enRoute material
 and noticed that the enRoute tutorials apparently at one time utilized
 Gradle as the build tool, but are now using Maven.

 I'm more familiar with Gradle and have worked out how to use Gradle to
 do what I need for the project, but I was wondering 1) why the switch from
 Gradle to Maven for enRoute and 2) is Maven the preferred build tool for
 OSGi going forward? Is there a reason I should consider switching to Maven?

 I've poked through the mailing list archives trying to find answers to
 these questions but can't seem to find a record of any discussions about
 this, so am hoping someone can shed some light for me.

 --
 Stephen Schaub

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Stephen Schaub
>> ___
>> OSGi Developer Mail List
>> osgi-dev@mail.osgi.org
>> https://mail.osgi.org/mailman/listinfo/osgi-dev
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Stephen Schaub
> ___
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-- 
*Raymond Augé* 
 (@rotty3000)
Senior Software Architect *Liferay, Inc.* 
 (@Liferay)
Board Member & EEG Co-Chair, OSGi Alliance  (@OSGiAlliance)
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Re: [osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi project

[Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev]

Tim,

You're right about live code deployment being possible with Eclipse +
Bndtools + Gradle. I should have qualified my statement: I'm using a build
setup that is a standard Gradle project structure (non-Bnd workspace),
because I didn't want to have to adopt the Bnd workspace model. Over on the
bndtools list, Raymond Auge indicated that live code deployment isn't
supported in Eclipse with a standard Gradle project structure.

Stephen

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 11:04 AM Tim Ward  wrote:

> Interestingly this is the opposite conclusion that most people come to.
> Until recently Bndtools did not support Maven at all and was 100% Gradle.
> There has been a lot of work to bring Maven support up to the same level as
> Gradle by the team, but I don’t think that many of us would say that Maven
> support was at parity yet, let alone better.
>
> You absolutely do get live code deployment when using Bndtools + Gradle
> (Maven only recently got this feature and Gradle has had it for years).
> Live baselining in Eclipse is still only available with Gradle, as are the
> quick-fixes for lots of bed-detected problems.
>
> You are correct that IntelliJ is more Maven-focussed, but that is because
> it doesn’t have additional plugins like Bndtools, so you’re just getting
> the support they have for Maven.
>
> When it comes to Karaf, that isn’t really part of Bndtools. The Karaf
> project has always been heavily Maven-based, and so if you want to use
> their tools then Maven is probably the way to go.
>
> All the best,
>
> Tim
>
> On 25 Jul 2019, at 14:31, Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev <
> osgi-dev@mail.osgi.org> wrote:
>
> A brief follow-up to this thread, after another month into my project:
>
> I have found that although Gradle will work fine as a build tool for OSGi,
> it does seem that Maven is better supported for OSGi development in
> Eclipse. For example, the Eclipse bndtools plugins support live code
> deployment if you're using Maven, but not Gradle. I have also seen a post
> describing doing live code deployment from IDEA that requires Maven. So, I
> conclude that Maven is definitely preferred over Gradle when it comes to
> OSGi IDE tooling.
>
> Also, although there is a Gradle plugin for generating kar archives for
> Karaf, I have encountered issues using it with current versions of Gradle.
>
> Finally, many OSGi examples I find online seem to be using Maven rather
> than Gradle as the build tool.
>
> These issues have not caused me to abandon Gradle, because I prefer it to
> Maven, and I am grateful that the bnd project continues to have great
> support for Gradle. However, overall, I am left with the impression that
> there is better support for Maven than for Gradle in the broader OSGi
> ecosystem.
>
> Stephen
>
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:11 AM Stephen Schaub  wrote:
>
>> Thanks to all for the helpful responses. I was concerned about using
>> Gradle as a build tool because so many OSGi resources I was finding seemed
>> to be using Maven, and the change of enRoute docs from Gradle to Maven
>> seemed to communicate a move away from Gradle as a "preferred" build tool.
>> But given that Maven still seems to be the dominant build tool in the Java
>> world, I can understand the rationale for transitioning enRoute from Gradle
>> to Maven. Also, I can understand that maintaining both Maven and Gradle
>> versions of enRoute would be a burden.
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 4:28 PM Stephen Schaub  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm new to OSGi and am starting a project. I found the enRoute material
>>> and noticed that the enRoute tutorials apparently at one time utilized
>>> Gradle as the build tool, but are now using Maven.
>>>
>>> I'm more familiar with Gradle and have worked out how to use Gradle to
>>> do what I need for the project, but I was wondering 1) why the switch from
>>> Gradle to Maven for enRoute and 2) is Maven the preferred build tool for
>>> OSGi going forward? Is there a reason I should consider switching to Maven?
>>>
>>> I've poked through the mailing list archives trying to find answers to
>>> these questions but can't seem to find a record of any discussions about
>>> this, so am hoping someone can shed some light for me.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stephen Schaub
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Stephen Schaub
> ___
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> osgi-dev@mail.osgi.org
> https://mail.osgi.org/mailman/listinfo/osgi-dev
>
>
>

-- 
Stephen Schaub
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Re: [osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi project

[Tim Ward via osgi-dev]

Interestingly this is the opposite conclusion that most people come to. Until 
recently Bndtools did not support Maven at all and was 100% Gradle. There has 
been a lot of work to bring Maven support up to the same level as Gradle by the 
team, but I don’t think that many of us would say that Maven support was at 
parity yet, let alone better.

You absolutely do get live code deployment when using Bndtools + Gradle (Maven 
only recently got this feature and Gradle has had it for years). Live 
baselining in Eclipse is still only available with Gradle, as are the 
quick-fixes for lots of bed-detected problems. 

You are correct that IntelliJ is more Maven-focussed, but that is because it 
doesn’t have additional plugins like Bndtools, so you’re just getting the 
support they have for Maven.

When it comes to Karaf, that isn’t really part of Bndtools. The Karaf project 
has always been heavily Maven-based, and so if you want to use their tools then 
Maven is probably the way to go.

All the best,

Tim

> On 25 Jul 2019, at 14:31, Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> A brief follow-up to this thread, after another month into my project:
> 
> I have found that although Gradle will work fine as a build tool for OSGi, it 
> does seem that Maven is better supported for OSGi development in Eclipse. For 
> example, the Eclipse bndtools plugins support live code deployment if you're 
> using Maven, but not Gradle. I have also seen a post describing doing live 
> code deployment from IDEA that requires Maven. So, I conclude that Maven is 
> definitely preferred over Gradle when it comes to OSGi IDE tooling.
> 
> Also, although there is a Gradle plugin for generating kar archives for 
> Karaf, I have encountered issues using it with current versions of Gradle.
> 
> Finally, many OSGi examples I find online seem to be using Maven rather than 
> Gradle as the build tool.
> 
> These issues have not caused me to abandon Gradle, because I prefer it to 
> Maven, and I am grateful that the bnd project continues to have great support 
> for Gradle. However, overall, I am left with the impression that there is 
> better support for Maven than for Gradle in the broader OSGi ecosystem. 
> 
> Stephen
> 
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:11 AM Stephen Schaub  > wrote:
> Thanks to all for the helpful responses. I was concerned about using Gradle 
> as a build tool because so many OSGi resources I was finding seemed to be 
> using Maven, and the change of enRoute docs from Gradle to Maven seemed to 
> communicate a move away from Gradle as a "preferred" build tool. But given 
> that Maven still seems to be the dominant build tool in the Java world, I can 
> understand the rationale for transitioning enRoute from Gradle to Maven. 
> Also, I can understand that maintaining both Maven and Gradle versions of 
> enRoute would be a burden. 
> 
> Stephen
> 
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 4:28 PM Stephen Schaub  > wrote:
> I'm new to OSGi and am starting a project. I found the enRoute material and 
> noticed that the enRoute tutorials apparently at one time utilized Gradle as 
> the build tool, but are now using Maven. 
> 
> I'm more familiar with Gradle and have worked out how to use Gradle to do 
> what I need for the project, but I was wondering 1) why the switch from 
> Gradle to Maven for enRoute and 2) is Maven the preferred build tool for OSGi 
> going forward? Is there a reason I should consider switching to Maven?
> 
> I've poked through the mailing list archives trying to find answers to these 
> questions but can't seem to find a record of any discussions about this, so 
> am hoping someone can shed some light for me.
> 
> -- 
> Stephen Schaub
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Stephen Schaub
> ___
> OSGi Developer Mail List
> osgi-dev@mail.osgi.org 
> https://mail.osgi.org/mailman/listinfo/osgi-dev 
> 
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Re: [osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi project

[Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev]

A brief follow-up to this thread, after another month into my project:

I have found that although Gradle will work fine as a build tool for OSGi,
it does seem that Maven is better supported for OSGi development in
Eclipse. For example, the Eclipse bndtools plugins support live code
deployment if you're using Maven, but not Gradle. I have also seen a post
describing doing live code deployment from IDEA that requires Maven. So, I
conclude that Maven is definitely preferred over Gradle when it comes to
OSGi IDE tooling.

Also, although there is a Gradle plugin for generating kar archives for
Karaf, I have encountered issues using it with current versions of Gradle.

Finally, many OSGi examples I find online seem to be using Maven rather
than Gradle as the build tool.

These issues have not caused me to abandon Gradle, because I prefer it to
Maven, and I am grateful that the bnd project continues to have great
support for Gradle. However, overall, I am left with the impression that
there is better support for Maven than for Gradle in the broader OSGi
ecosystem.

Stephen

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:11 AM Stephen Schaub  wrote:

> Thanks to all for the helpful responses. I was concerned about using
> Gradle as a build tool because so many OSGi resources I was finding seemed
> to be using Maven, and the change of enRoute docs from Gradle to Maven
> seemed to communicate a move away from Gradle as a "preferred" build tool.
> But given that Maven still seems to be the dominant build tool in the Java
> world, I can understand the rationale for transitioning enRoute from Gradle
> to Maven. Also, I can understand that maintaining both Maven and Gradle
> versions of enRoute would be a burden.
>
> Stephen
>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 4:28 PM Stephen Schaub  wrote:
>
>> I'm new to OSGi and am starting a project. I found the enRoute material
>> and noticed that the enRoute tutorials apparently at one time utilized
>> Gradle as the build tool, but are now using Maven.
>>
>> I'm more familiar with Gradle and have worked out how to use Gradle to do
>> what I need for the project, but I was wondering 1) why the switch from
>> Gradle to Maven for enRoute and 2) is Maven the preferred build tool for
>> OSGi going forward? Is there a reason I should consider switching to Maven?
>>
>> I've poked through the mailing list archives trying to find answers to
>> these questions but can't seem to find a record of any discussions about
>> this, so am hoping someone can shed some light for me.
>>
>> --
>> Stephen Schaub
>>
>
>
>

-- 
Stephen Schaub
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Re: [osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi project

[Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev]

Thanks to all for the helpful responses. I was concerned about using Gradle
as a build tool because so many OSGi resources I was finding seemed to be
using Maven, and the change of enRoute docs from Gradle to Maven seemed to
communicate a move away from Gradle as a "preferred" build tool. But given
that Maven still seems to be the dominant build tool in the Java world, I
can understand the rationale for transitioning enRoute from Gradle to
Maven. Also, I can understand that maintaining both Maven and Gradle
versions of enRoute would be a burden.

Stephen

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 4:28 PM Stephen Schaub  wrote:

> I'm new to OSGi and am starting a project. I found the enRoute material
> and noticed that the enRoute tutorials apparently at one time utilized
> Gradle as the build tool, but are now using Maven.
>
> I'm more familiar with Gradle and have worked out how to use Gradle to do
> what I need for the project, but I was wondering 1) why the switch from
> Gradle to Maven for enRoute and 2) is Maven the preferred build tool for
> OSGi going forward? Is there a reason I should consider switching to Maven?
>
> I've poked through the mailing list archives trying to find answers to
> these questions but can't seem to find a record of any discussions about
> this, so am hoping someone can shed some light for me.
>
> --
> Stephen Schaub
>
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Re: [osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi project

[BJ Hargrave via osgi-dev]

Bnd supports Gradle and Maven. So you can use Gradle if you prefer (I personally prefer Gradle.)
 
OSGi enRoute is now using Maven since it is, by far, much more popular than Gradle. But a Gradle variant of enRoute could also be made. But it is more work to dual maintain the variants. So with limited resources, we chose Maven for enRoute. But that does not mean Maven is preferred over Gradle.
 
--BJ HargraveSenior Technical Staff Member, IBM // office: +1 386 848 1781OSGi Fellow and CTO of the OSGi Alliance // mobile: +1 386 848 3788hargr...@us.ibm.com
 
 
- Original message -From: Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev Sent by: osgi-dev-boun...@mail.osgi.orgTo: osgi-dev@mail.osgi.orgCc:Subject: [EXTERNAL] [osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi projectDate: Mon, Jun 24, 2019 16:28 
I'm new to OSGi and am starting a project. I found the enRoute material and noticed that the enRoute tutorials apparently at one time utilized Gradle as the build tool, but are now using Maven. 
 
I'm more familiar with Gradle and have worked out how to use Gradle to do what I need for the project, but I was wondering 1) why the switch from Gradle to Maven for enRoute and 2) is Maven the preferred build tool for OSGi going forward? Is there a reason I should consider switching to Maven?
 
I've poked through the mailing list archives trying to find answers to these questions but can't seem to find a record of any discussions about this, so am hoping someone can shed some light for me.
 --

Stephen Schaub
___OSGi Developer Mail Listosgi-dev@mail.osgi.orghttps://mail.osgi.org/mailman/listinfo/osgi-dev 
 

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Re: [osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi project

[Mark Hoffmann via osgi-dev]

Hi Stephen,

1. Maven is very popular. So using maven makes it easy for a large 
audience to adopt OSGi. When there is an integration for the right build 
tool, people tend to rather try things out, then if they have to "learn" 
a new build tool.


2. You can also use gradle. We use only gradle together with bnd for the 
OSGi development in all our projects. Just try the Eclipse bndtools out. 
It creates a workspace utilizing gradle.


Mark

Am 24.06.19 um 22:28 schrieb Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev:
I'm new to OSGi and am starting a project. I found the enRoute 
material and noticed that the enRoute tutorials apparently at one time 
utilized Gradle as the build tool, but are now using Maven.


I'm more familiar with Gradle and have worked out how to use Gradle to 
do what I need for the project, but I was wondering 1) why the switch 
from Gradle to Maven for enRoute and 2) is Maven the preferred build 
tool for OSGi going forward? Is there a reason I should consider 
switching to Maven?


I've poked through the mailing list archives trying to find answers to 
these questions but can't seem to find a record of any discussions 
about this, so am hoping someone can shed some light for me.


--
Stephen Schaub

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--
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M.A. Dipl.-Betriebswirt (FH)
CEO/CTO

Phone:   +49 3641 384 910 0
Mobile:  +49 175 701 2201
E-Mail: m.hoffm...@data-in-motion.biz
Web: www.datainmotion.de

Data In Motion Consulting GmbH
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07745 Jena
Germany

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Mark Hoffmann
Jürgen Albert

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Re: [osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi project

[Łukasz Dywicki via osgi-dev]

Hey Stephen,
Others can correct my points but from what I remember initial setup was
based on gradle due to its flexibility.
Since many things get promoted via Maven Central and Maven is still far
more popular for traditional development [1], obvious choice was to
introduce better support for Maven and stay open towards this side of
the community.
Since Maven is also less flexible than Gradle it is less likely it will
blow things up. The fewer surprises user can spot during his first steps
the better experience he gets as a newcomer.
I would abstain from discussion which tool is better. At the time
decision was made Maven was more popular than Gradle.

These days you can create Maven based builds and they are fully
supported either via bnd-maven-plugin(s) or former maven-bundle-plugin
provided by Apache Felix project.

[1] One of stats from 2019 shows 60% for Maven versus 19% for Gradle:
Maven https://snyk.io/blog/jvm-ecosystem-report-2018-tools/

Kind regards,
Łukasz Dywicki
--
Code-House http://code-house.org

On 24.06.2019 22:28, Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev wrote:
> I'm new to OSGi and am starting a project. I found the enRoute material
> and noticed that the enRoute tutorials apparently at one time utilized
> Gradle as the build tool, but are now using Maven. 
> 
> I'm more familiar with Gradle and have worked out how to use Gradle to
> do what I need for the project, but I was wondering 1) why the switch
> from Gradle to Maven for enRoute and 2) is Maven the preferred build
> tool for OSGi going forward? Is there a reason I should consider
> switching to Maven?
> 
> I've poked through the mailing list archives trying to find answers to
> these questions but can't seem to find a record of any discussions about
> this, so am hoping someone can shed some light for me.
> 
> -- 
> Stephen Schaub
> 
> ___
> OSGi Developer Mail List
> osgi-dev@mail.osgi.org
> https://mail.osgi.org/mailman/listinfo/osgi-dev
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[osgi-dev] Using Gradle or Maven on a new OSGi project

[Stephen Schaub via osgi-dev]

I'm new to OSGi and am starting a project. I found the enRoute material and
noticed that the enRoute tutorials apparently at one time utilized Gradle
as the build tool, but are now using Maven.

I'm more familiar with Gradle and have worked out how to use Gradle to do
what I need for the project, but I was wondering 1) why the switch from
Gradle to Maven for enRoute and 2) is Maven the preferred build tool for
OSGi going forward? Is there a reason I should consider switching to Maven?

I've poked through the mailing list archives trying to find answers to
these questions but can't seem to find a record of any discussions about
this, so am hoping someone can shed some light for me.

-- 
Stephen Schaub
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