Re: What's up with map updates?

[Martin Trautmann]

On 19-07-10 12:35, Majka wrote:

> No, you need ONE full download of the map. Then, depending on the
> frequency and size of the changes, you simply download the deltas (live
> update) as you want/need. Some time later (might be several months or
> even years), OsmAnd MIGHT be slowing down, because you'll work with the
> "normal" file + several separate delta files. Then, it is time to
> download the full map again. This will remove the deltas, and you can
> start again. But apart of the possible slow-down, there is nothing there
> needing the new full download, you can simply continue with the live
> updates only.

So there are two different opinions.

If deltas were that reliable, it would be a much faster and simpler task
to derive monthly updates from them.


Schönen Gruß
Martin

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Majka]

On Tuesday, 9 July 2019 22:42:08 UTC+2, Martin Trautmann wrote:
>
> But as you tell me, using Osmand Live would require BOTH delta updates, 
> as well as a monthly full (proper?) reload of the maps? 
>
> Schönen Gruß 
> Martin 
>
>
No, you need ONE full download of the map. Then, depending on the frequency 
and size of the changes, you simply download the deltas (live update) as 
you want/need. Some time later (might be several months or even years), 
OsmAnd MIGHT be slowing down, because you'll work with the "normal" file + 
several separate delta files. Then, it is time to download the full map 
again. This will remove the deltas, and you can start again. But apart of 
the possible slow-down, there is nothing there needing the new full 
download, you can simply continue with the live updates only.

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Martin Trautmann]

On 19-07-09 17:47, 'Xavier' via Osmand wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 02:44:08PM +0200, Martin Trautmann wrote:
>> On 19-07-04 20:14, Greg Troxel wrote:
>>> osmand live provides files that contain differences from published
>>> map files.  So with a fairly recent map (and it seems to not have to
>>> be the most recent one), and the delta updates, you have up to date
>>> data.
>>
>> If this mechanism would be that easy, why would it be so time
>> consuming to create new map updates for every month?
> 
> Likely because the base monthly maps are not generated from the delta
> difference files, but by reprocessing the entire OSM dataset anew each
> time (the planet osm datafile, when uncompressed, is about 1 terabyte).
> 
> And, anticipating a "why" question, one would process the data this way
> to prevent a common problem when handling long chains of delta data.  If
> any piece of delta data in the middle of the chain is missed everything
> after the missed data that depends from the missed data turns into garbage.

If the mechanism is reliable, it would be sufficient for that task.
You could spread the load by building e.g. two of three from the delta,
while the third is built from scratch.

But as you tell me, using Osmand Live would require BOTH delta updates,
as well as a monthly full (proper?) reload of the maps?

Schönen Gruß
Martin

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Mark Begbie]

That answers my original lack of understanding on why hourly updates can happen 
for Live, but monthly updates are delayed. Thanks. 

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Mark Begbie]

That folks in my original lack of understanding on why hourly updates can bairn 
for Live, but monthly updates are delayed. Thanks. 

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Harry van der Wolf]

Java has come a long way. Java is one-time compiled and then almost as fast
as C/C++.
Java already supports multicore processors for years and also the
OsmAndMapCreator can be started with the number of cores to use (or via the
config)
Note also that for the bigger maps, the disk access is way more important
than the difference in speed for C/C++ or java.
Using lots of memoriesand superfast solid state disks gives you the best
performance by whole factors. And yes: switching to C++ might get you the
last few percentages.

Harry

Op vr 5 jul. 2019 om 10:50 schreef Helmut Jarausch :

> Are there any ongoing efforts to rewrite the software to create the maps
> in C++?
> I would expect a significant speedup on multicore processors.
>
> 'Xavier' via Osmand  schrieb am Do., 4. Juli
> 2019, 20:56:
>
>> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 02:14:21PM -0400, Greg Troxel wrote:
>> >
>> >I also don't understand why people are so upset about monthly updates
>> >being 10-20 days behind the end of the month.  Yes, the next day would
>> >be better, but 1) it's so much faster than any non-OSM approach
>>
>> If I remember correctly, back when I had a TomTom, the map updates from
>> TomTom were available either on a 6 month cycle or yearly cycle.
>>
>> OsmAnd monthly updates, even if they don't arrive until the 10th of the
>> month, are already either six or twelve times more frequent than what
>> TomTom provided.
>>
>> I don't know what cycle TomTom is on now, as I switched to OsmAnd when
>> TomTom decided to drop support for my old navigator.
>>
>> > and 2) with osmand live, it matters very little.  Even without
>> >osmandlive, having map data that's between 20 and 50 days old at any
>> >point isn't much worse than having data that's between 5 and 35.
>>
>> 20-50 days old seems better than 180 or 365 days old (and of course
>> with TomTom one had to pay per update or 'subscribe' to a limited
>> number of updates).
>>
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Re: What's up with map updates?

['Xavier' via Osmand]

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 02:44:08PM +0200, Martin Trautmann wrote:

On 19-07-04 20:14, Greg Troxel wrote:
osmand live provides files that contain differences from published 
map files.  So with a fairly recent map (and it seems to not have to 
be the most recent one), and the delta updates, you have up to date 
data.


If this mechanism would be that easy, why would it be so time 
consuming to create new map updates for every month?


Likely because the base monthly maps are not generated from the delta 
difference files, but by reprocessing the entire OSM dataset anew each 
time (the planet osm datafile, when uncompressed, is about 1 terabyte).


And, anticipating a "why" question, one would process the data this way 
to prevent a common problem when handling long chains of delta data.  
If any piece of delta data in the middle of the chain is missed 
everything after the missed data that depends from the missed data 
turns into garbage.


So one would regenerate anew for some cycle (in OsmAnd's case, that is 
monthly) then build differencing files for a month.  So any errors in 
the delta chain propagate for no more than one month before they get 
cleaned up (by the "start anew" montly cycle processing).



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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Martin Trautmann]

On 19-07-04 20:14, Greg Troxel wrote:
> Martin Trautmann  writes:
> 
>> Sorry, but I do feel that OSMAND Live is pretty much useless, to offer
>> updates "EVEN PER HOUR", if in fact the maps are delayed by weeks for
>> the regular monthly schedule.
> 
> It would be good to understand how it works before declaring them
> useless.

It would be even better to get this info, other than buying this option
first.

What is it that you can learn from https://osmand.net/osm_live about
this kind of behavior?

> osmand live provides files that contain differences from published map
> files.   So with a fairly recent map (and it seems to not have to be the
> most recent one), and the delta updates, you have up to date data.

If this mechanism would be that easy, why would it be so time consuming
to create new map updates for every month?

Schönen Gruß
Martin

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Mark Begbie]

Ā key factor here is the nature of the data. The data that systems like Tom Tom 
are built on is notionally complete. That is to say all significant features of 
a type which are in existence are in the data set when it is created. This 
means the data files for systems like Tom Tom change relatively slowly. But, it 
is only feasible commercially for limited data sets; roads, rail, geographic 
data, postcodes etc. 

The data set for OSM is quite different. For one, it is FAR richer and more 
diverse. Tom Tom will not provide info on cafes with associated opening times, 
wheelchair access and WiFi availability information.  In this regard OSM data 
is also far less complete. 

My point is that in terms of comparison to the functionality of commercial GPS 
I'd say the OSM data is complete nowadays. If you are using OSMAnd as an 
alternative to Tom Tom, then monthly updates which come out a month behind are 
fine.

But, if you use OSMAnd for the far richer data, it is not such a good 
situtation. Or at least, you have to accept you could be missing out on a LOT 
of detail created in the interim 8 weeks. 

The problem for me, is that it is this richer data that I want for trips. When, 
as is often the case, there is a lot of useful data missing i will mai it a 
part of my trip research. That way everyone gets to benefit in the long run. 
But I don't plan every trip far enough ahead that all the research is complete 
2 months in advance. Hence the delay between updating the database and 
receiving that information in OSMAnd can be a problem. 

Now I've sussed the map creator I can compile and download a new New Zealand 
map in 90 minutes of so.

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Mark Begbie]

Ā key factor here is the nature of the data. The data that systems like Tom Tom 
are built on is notionally complete. That is to say all significant features of 
a type which are in existence are in the data set when it is created. This 
means the data files for systems like Tom Tom change relatively slowly. But, it 
is only feasible commercially for limited data sets; roads, rail, geographic 
data, postcodes etc.

The data set for OSM is quite different. For one, it is FAR richer and more 
diverse. How many cafes with associated opening times, wheelchair access and 
WiFi availability information does Tom Tom provide?  It is also far less 
complete. 

The point is that in terms of comparison to commercial GPS I'd say the 
comparable OSM data is complete nowadays. If you are using OSMAnd as an 
alternative to Tom Tom, then monthly updates a month begins are, indeed, fine. 
If you use OSMAnd for the car richer data, it is not. Or at least, you have to 
accept you could be missing out on a LOT of detail created in the interim. 

The problem for me, is that it is this richer data that I want for trips. Hence 
the delay between updating the database and receiving that information in 
OSMAnd can be a problem.

Now I've sussed the map creator I can compile and download a new New Zealand 
map in 90 minutes of so. 

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Helmut Jarausch]

Are there any ongoing efforts to rewrite the software to create the maps in
C++?
I would expect a significant speedup on multicore processors.

'Xavier' via Osmand  schrieb am Do., 4. Juli 2019,
20:56:

> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 02:14:21PM -0400, Greg Troxel wrote:
> >
> >I also don't understand why people are so upset about monthly updates
> >being 10-20 days behind the end of the month.  Yes, the next day would
> >be better, but 1) it's so much faster than any non-OSM approach
>
> If I remember correctly, back when I had a TomTom, the map updates from
> TomTom were available either on a 6 month cycle or yearly cycle.
>
> OsmAnd monthly updates, even if they don't arrive until the 10th of the
> month, are already either six or twelve times more frequent than what
> TomTom provided.
>
> I don't know what cycle TomTom is on now, as I switched to OsmAnd when
> TomTom decided to drop support for my old navigator.
>
> > and 2) with osmand live, it matters very little.  Even without
> >osmandlive, having map data that's between 20 and 50 days old at any
> >point isn't much worse than having data that's between 5 and 35.
>
> 20-50 days old seems better than 180 or 365 days old (and of course
> with TomTom one had to pay per update or 'subscribe' to a limited
> number of updates).
>
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Re: What's up with map updates?

['Xavier' via Osmand]

On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 02:14:21PM -0400, Greg Troxel wrote:


I also don't understand why people are so upset about monthly updates 
being 10-20 days behind the end of the month.  Yes, the next day would 
be better, but 1) it's so much faster than any non-OSM approach


If I remember correctly, back when I had a TomTom, the map updates from 
TomTom were available either on a 6 month cycle or yearly cycle.


OsmAnd monthly updates, even if they don't arrive until the 10th of the 
month, are already either six or twelve times more frequent than what 
TomTom provided.


I don't know what cycle TomTom is on now, as I switched to OsmAnd when 
TomTom decided to drop support for my old navigator.


and 2) with osmand live, it matters very little.  Even without 
osmandlive, having map data that's between 20 and 50 days old at any 
point isn't much worse than having data that's between 5 and 35.


20-50 days old seems better than 180 or 365 days old (and of course 
with TomTom one had to pay per update or 'subscribe' to a limited 
number of updates).


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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Greg Troxel]

Martin Trautmann  writes:

> Sorry, but I do feel that OSMAND Live is pretty much useless, to offer
> updates "EVEN PER HOUR", if in fact the maps are delayed by weeks for
> the regular monthly schedule.

It would be good to understand how it works before declaring them
useless.

osmand live provides files that contain differences from published map
files.   So with a fairly recent map (and it seems to not have to be the
most recent one), and the delta updates, you have up to date data.

I find that I can add something to OSM, wait an hour  or sometimes two,
and then get the live update, and have the new things shown in osmand.

So from my viewpiont it works as intended.


I also don't understand why people are so upset about monthly updates
being 10-20 days behind the end of the month.  Yes, the next day would
be better, but 1) it's so much faster than any non-OSM approach and 2)
with osmand live, it matters very little.  Even without osmandlive,
having map data that's between 20 and 50 days old at any point isn't
much worse than having data that's between 5 and 35.

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Re: What's up with map updates?

['Xavier' via Osmand]

On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 10:30:29PM -0700, Mark Begbie wrote:
I totally get that the map updates are getting more complex.  I'm 
trying to build New Zealand on a Win 10 Core i7 with 8GB of RAM and 
struggling.


What I do NOT get at all, is how on the one hand it takes almost a 
month to update the map for one group of users and yet for another 
group it's done hourly.  Something just smells really bad about that.


Not hard to understand at all:

OSM Data for Torrey UT at zoom level 14:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/38.3046/-111.4188

OSM Data for a portion of Los Angeles CA also at zoom level 14:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/34.0440/-118.2600

Note the significant difference in detail level.

Your i7 w/ 8GB RAM machine would build a map data file for Torrey 
UT *much* more quickly than it would build a map data file for Los 
Angeles CA.  In fact, it likely might build the entire state of Utah 
faster than it would build just the city of Los Angeles, much less the 
whole state of CA.


So a huge contributor to the speed of map updates is the density of 
data to be built (under the reasonable presumption that the OsmAnd 
devs. have a single size, likely large, server that is used to build 
the updated maps).  Areas that are lower density can get built faster 
than areas of extreme density for the same size server performing the 
build.


As for the hourly builds, they sound like they are built as deltas 
against the last monthly build file, so the hourly builds only have to 
consume the changes that occurred since the last monthly file was 
built, which is a much smaller dataset, no matter the starting area, 
than building the whole area from scratch.  And OSM itself provides a 
service that delivers those changes as just the changes since the last 
change file, so OsmAnd does not have to first determine what changed 
before building the hourly files.


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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Martin Trautmann]

On 19-06-17 15:54, V S wrote:
> All maps are updated now. Please use OsmAnd Live subscription and you
> will get incremental map updates every hour.
> Our full generation map update is becoming more complicated and this
> month it was delayed by 5 days because of hardware issues though it is
> expected that it could take 2-3 weeks and maps of 1st/XX/20YY will be
> produced at 20/XX/20YY
Sorry, but I do feel that OSMAND Live is pretty much useless, to offer
updates "EVEN PER HOUR", if in fact the maps are delayed by weeks for
the regular monthly schedule.

Personally, I do not need regular updates for an area I traveled last
year only. I do a monthly update for my local area. As of today, the map
available is still from the month before.

Schönen Gruß
Martin

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Majka]

As the live update works with tiny files (just the diffs), the live update 
system won't need much processing power in comparison with the complete 
map. I can understand why the live updates are working well and the normal 
maps are struggling.

What I would prefer would be free live update for mappers instead of the 
current schema. I am active mapper myself, but the current method is 
promoting low-quality edits, IMHO. It is counting only the number of 
changesets, not the number and quality of changes. In theory, the most 
problematic and discussed mapper active in our country , who we had to stop 
several times, would get paid for the problems he brings into the map. He 
just didn't ask for the payment, as far as I can see.

On Thursday, 4 July 2019 07:30:29 UTC+2, Mark Begbie wrote:
>
> I totally get that the map updates are getting more complex.  I'm trying 
> to build New Zealand on a Win 10 Core i7 with 8GB of RAM and struggling.
>
> What I do NOT get at all, is how on the one hand it takes almost a month 
> to update the map for one group of users and yet for another group it's 
> done hourly.  Something just smells really bad about that.
>
> I get, too, that developers need to find ways to deliver recurrent revenue 
> and one time subscriptions with forever map downloads doesn't deliver 
> that.  Perhaps ending the one-time payment option would be a way to go?  I 
> don't know.  Getting a little off topic now, but another thing that worries 
> me is the mapper payments reference in the OSMAnd live information.  I 
> spend a lot of time mapping, and I don't expect to be paid.  What worries 
> me though, is if there's a precedent set for paying for content it could 
> upset and derail the whole free input free output model that the OSM data 
> set is built on.  Payments should relate to value add services on top of 
> the data, which should be available to all.
>

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Victor Shcherb]

Not sure, I could understand, I think New Zealnd takes 2-3 hours max to
generate the map. And all maps are generated 8-9 days.

Live maps are quick cause they are generated incrementally but they require
24/7 monitoring system to properly catch up with all changes.

Best Regards,
Victor

On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 07:30, Mark Begbie  wrote:

> I totally get that the map updates are getting more complex.  I'm trying
> to build New Zealand on a Win 10 Core i7 with 8GB of RAM and struggling.
>
> What I do NOT get at all, is how on the one hand it takes almost a month
> to update the map for one group of users and yet for another group it's
> done hourly.  Something just smells really bad about that.
>
> I get, too, that developers need to find ways to deliver recurrent revenue
> and one time subscriptions with forever map downloads doesn't deliver
> that.  Perhaps ending the one-time payment option would be a way to go?  I
> don't know.  Getting a little off topic now, but another thing that worries
> me is the mapper payments reference in the OSMAnd live information.  I
> spend a lot of time mapping, and I don't expect to be paid.  What worries
> me though, is if there's a precedent set for paying for content it could
> upset and derail the whole free input free output model that the OSM data
> set is built on.  Payments should relate to value add services on top of
> the data, which should be available to all.
>
> On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 01:54:24 UTC+12, V S wrote:
>>
>> All maps are updated now. Please use OsmAnd Live subscription and you
>> will get incremental map updates every hour.
>> Our full generation map update is becoming more complicated and this
>> month it was delayed by 5 days because of hardware issues though it is
>> expected that it could take 2-3 weeks and maps of 1st/XX/20YY will be
>> produced at 20/XX/20YY
>>
>> On Friday, 14 June 2019 06:31:05 UTC+2, Mark Begbie wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the schedule for map updates.
>>> We're now on the 14th of June and the New Zealand map update to 1st of June
>>> hasn't been released yet.  I could understand if it were not for Osmand
>>> also offering daily and hourly updates for people that pay a higher fee.
>>> If all maps, globally, can be updated hourly, how can it possibly be
>>> justifiable to take over two weeks to roll that update out to other users?
>>>
>>> One of the great things about OSM is the crowd sourcing nature of the
>>> map.  If I'm travelling somewhere I typically look at the map and add areas
>>> of interest to it before I go.  That way everyone can benefit from the
>>> research I do before I go somewhere.  With now a 6 week plus lag between
>>> early month updates and the map being rolled out that doesn't really work.
>>>
>> --
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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Mark Begbie]

I totally get that the map updates are getting more complex.  I'm trying to 
build New Zealand on a Win 10 Core i7 with 8GB of RAM and struggling.

What I do NOT get at all, is how on the one hand it takes almost a month to 
update the map for one group of users and yet for another group it's done 
hourly.  Something just smells really bad about that.

I get, too, that developers need to find ways to deliver recurrent revenue 
and one time subscriptions with forever map downloads doesn't deliver 
that.  Perhaps ending the one-time payment option would be a way to go?  I 
don't know.  Getting a little off topic now, but another thing that worries 
me is the mapper payments reference in the OSMAnd live information.  I 
spend a lot of time mapping, and I don't expect to be paid.  What worries 
me though, is if there's a precedent set for paying for content it could 
upset and derail the whole free input free output model that the OSM data 
set is built on.  Payments should relate to value add services on top of 
the data, which should be available to all.

On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 01:54:24 UTC+12, V S wrote:
>
> All maps are updated now. Please use OsmAnd Live subscription and you will 
> get incremental map updates every hour.
> Our full generation map update is becoming more complicated and this month 
> it was delayed by 5 days because of hardware issues though it is expected 
> that it could take 2-3 weeks and maps of 1st/XX/20YY will be produced at 
> 20/XX/20YY
>
> On Friday, 14 June 2019 06:31:05 UTC+2, Mark Begbie wrote:
>>
>> I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the schedule for map updates.  
>> We're now on the 14th of June and the New Zealand map update to 1st of June 
>> hasn't been released yet.  I could understand if it were not for Osmand 
>> also offering daily and hourly updates for people that pay a higher fee.  
>> If all maps, globally, can be updated hourly, how can it possibly be 
>> justifiable to take over two weeks to roll that update out to other users?
>>
>> One of the great things about OSM is the crowd sourcing nature of the 
>> map.  If I'm travelling somewhere I typically look at the map and add areas 
>> of interest to it before I go.  That way everyone can benefit from the 
>> research I do before I go somewhere.  With now a 6 week plus lag between 
>> early month updates and the map being rolled out that doesn't really work.
>>
>

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[V S]

All maps are updated now. Please use OsmAnd Live subscription and you will 
get incremental map updates every hour.
Our full generation map update is becoming more complicated and this month 
it was delayed by 5 days because of hardware issues though it is expected 
that it could take 2-3 weeks and maps of 1st/XX/20YY will be produced at 
20/XX/20YY

On Friday, 14 June 2019 06:31:05 UTC+2, Mark Begbie wrote:
>
> I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the schedule for map updates.  
> We're now on the 14th of June and the New Zealand map update to 1st of June 
> hasn't been released yet.  I could understand if it were not for Osmand 
> also offering daily and hourly updates for people that pay a higher fee.  
> If all maps, globally, can be updated hourly, how can it possibly be 
> justifiable to take over two weeks to roll that update out to other users?
>
> One of the great things about OSM is the crowd sourcing nature of the 
> map.  If I'm travelling somewhere I typically look at the map and add areas 
> of interest to it before I go.  That way everyone can benefit from the 
> research I do before I go somewhere.  With now a 6 week plus lag between 
> early month updates and the map being rolled out that doesn't really work.
>

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Re: What's up with map updates?

[Mark Begbie]

Thanks for that, I'll have a look.

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