RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
Sally, It is up to wonderful women midwives like you to keep women's chances alive - don't give up! What hope will we have if the best chance we have at choice no longer wish to work in the system? We need to infiltrate the system to get anywhere. Don't underestimate the power and ability you have to change things, along with all of us sticking together. Power in numbers, power in beliefs. Best Regards, Kelly Zantey Creator, BellyBelly.com.au Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood BellyBelly Birth Support - http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of sally @ home Sent: Saturday, 17 June 2006 1:56 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used? You know, a lot of the time I feel trapped between a rock and hard place!! I know that what has been said is not a personal attack, but working in the system (and how bad am I for succumbing to that?) makes me, by default, part of the problem. This I find very hard. I worked for 14 years as an independent midwife, it was hard yakka but extremely rewarding in all regards...I loved it. However, I was bearly able to keep food on the table, and paying bills was a nightmare.My belief was to keep my bookings manageable so that I could be there for all the women I worked with. In that time I never missed a birth. I believed I was working truly 'with woman'. In 2000 I went from homebirthing into a Level 3 referral hospital, because it was my misguided belief that I may learn something. (I had never worked with women with high risk pregnancies) and I really needed some financial stability in my life. The culture shock was immense and I spent the first few months wondering what the heck I had done. The midwives I worked with worked under the most horrendous conditions and time and time again I saw them raw with grief because they felt they were unable to give the care these women needed and were entitled to. Last year I started work at a brand new hospital in Berwick. A 'low risk' midwifery led unit...we endeavor to work with women in the true sense, we buck the system as much as we are able, which is often, and we bend the rules constantly, however,it is hard given that the medical profession, especially anaesthetists, have us over a barrel...this is where the rock and the hard place come in. We buck the system and we are hauled over the coals by the 'programme' and the medical establishment, we tow the line and we are shot down in flames by people who regard anything to do with hospitals as anti birthing women. Considering the hard work and effort we go to to work with and enable women to achieve the experience that is their right, I find some of what has been said quite insulting. Sure, there are midwives out there that are more medical model than midwives in the true sense, but this can be said for all people from all walks of life, and yes some policies etc are frustrating to work within, but unfortunately we can't work without them. Working in 'the system' is hard enough, it is a constant battle and an exhausting one at that. I am saddened by what I am reading and it just fuels my belief that midwifery is not where I want to be anymore. Sally -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
time and time again I saw them raw with grief because they felt they were unable to give the care these women needed and were entitled to. I so relate to what you have said Sally. It is hard to work in the system and maintain your integrity as a midwife. Considering the vast majority of midwives do work 'in the system' most of us do our best to provide the best we can within whatever restrictions we have to toe the line to. The system needs midwives like you who know how to challenge, and how to help your sisters challenge, so that in time we can change it. Please don't give it up. Sue - Original Message - From: sally @ home [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used? You know, a lot of the time I feel trapped between a rock and hard place!! I know that what has been said is not a personal attack, but working in the system (and how bad am I for succumbing to that?) makes me, by default, part of the problem. This I find very hard. I worked for 14 years as an independent midwife, it was hard yakka but extremely rewarding in all regards...I loved it. However, I was bearly able to keep food on the table, and paying bills was a nightmare.My belief was to keep my bookings manageable so that I could be there for all the women I worked with. In that time I never missed a birth. I believed I was working truly 'with woman'. In 2000 I went from homebirthing into a Level 3 referral hospital, because it was my misguided belief that I may learn something. (I had never worked with women with high risk pregnancies) and I really needed some financial stability in my life. The culture shock was immense and I spent the first few months wondering what the heck I had done. The midwives I worked with worked under the most horrendous conditions and time and time again I saw them raw with grief because they felt they were unable to give the care these women needed and were entitled to. Last year I started work at a brand new hospital in Berwick. A 'low risk' midwifery led unit...we endeavor to work with women in the true sense, we buck the system as much as we are able, which is often, and we bend the rules constantly, however,it is hard given that the medical profession, especially anaesthetists, have us over a barrel...this is where the rock and the hard place come in. We buck the system and we are hauled over the coals by the 'programme' and the medical establishment, we tow the line and we are shot down in flames by people who regard anything to do with hospitals as anti birthing women. Considering the hard work and effort we go to to work with and enable women to achieve the experience that is their right, I find some of what has been said quite insulting. Sure, there are midwives out there that are more medical model than midwives in the true sense, but this can be said for all people from all walks of life, and yes some policies etc are frustrating to work within, but unfortunately we can't work without them. Working in 'the system' is hard enough, it is a constant battle and an exhausting one at that. I am saddened by what I am reading and it just fuels my belief that midwifery is not where I want to be anymore. Sally -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.0/368 - Release Date: 16/06/2006 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
but this will no longer be the case with compulsory continuous EFM for all Syntocinon Inductions. I can see Caesarians yet further on the increase at our hospital. Linda Hi, I find the whole idea of a procedure being compulsory as absolutely ludicrous!! You can't make a medical procedure compulsory, unless a patient is deemed not able to make his or her own decisions. From my understanding, mostly this happens with involuntary hospitalization of people with psychiatric disorders. Surely, by agreeing to use these procedures and abide by 'policy' that treats women this way, is basically agreeing that women are incapable of being in control of their own labouring and treating birthing women as involuntary psych patients. Even if, say, that birthing women were 'patients' in need of medical attention, they should definitely not be treated on par with people deemed mentally ill. I think it is atrocious. Hospitals seem to set women up for failure during labour and birth and abiding by the rules and regulations imposed on women in these institutions, midwives are also helping set them up for failure. All options should be offered to all women regardless of how informed or misinformed they are. It is for the woman to decide not the 'care providers' who assume control. Someone who claims to be 'with woman', should be making every effort to support women in making educated decisions, not leading them into hospital policy. If a woman feels safer in hospital to birth, then they should be treated the same as a woman choosing to birth at home. No woman should be treated differently because of her choice of birth place, in fact, that is discrimination. We, in western society, come from broken birth lines. We are afraid, uneducated and willingly pass over control of our births. It is not the birthing womans fault, for the power has been taken away. If midwives could spend more time empowering women during their pregnancy, maybe women would not be pouring water down their legs, what drove this woman to such an act? Fear??!! As care providers we need to support birthing women in taking back their power. This means supporting and providing true education, bucking against a system that sets women up for failure, standing up for what is right when seeing birthing women being treated wrongly, offering alternatives and suggestions, not treating women as involuntary patients but as strong, capable, powerful women. I feel so strongly about this because again and again I see the impact of modern 'birthing'( if you can call it that) practices. Women are damaged and traumatised and angry. Women should not have to fight for their rights as a woman or as a 'patient' ( if you want to see them like that). It is the only time that in hospitals, that I know of, that the 'patient' is not respected. If 'care providers' treated any other 'patient' with the amount of disrespect and disregard as birthing mums are treated with, they would be in big trouble with all kinds of authorities. But, birthing women are trested badly and with a total lack of regard so often. I believe this is shown just even in the whole policy situation. I could rave on for ages, but basically I think it SUCKS that women are treated this way, with rules and regulations aka policy and procedures. Love Abby -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
Therein lies the problem with management of birth...all women, babies and births are not the same, so if everyone caring for the woman and baby does the same thing, how can this possibly be considered appropriate evidence based care? That is such and excellent and valid point. Also, please someone correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't continuos EFM been proven to not affect outcomes in a positive way. If we are talking about policies written with evidence based care in mind, surely the policy should reflect evidence based care. ( whatever evidence based is!) Love Abby -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
Abby, I agree with you, the proceedure should not be compulsory and I will take this up with colleagues, women should be given the right to choose if they want this, and I suppose the best way to go is what Emily has suggested and explain to the mother and write it in their notes if they choose to not have EFM.. I find this whole policy/proceedure thing often very difficult to work with, but hospitals do have to work within the safety of policies and guidelines to protect not only the mother and baby, but the hospital and staff themselves. In a court of law they will have to show that they followed proceedure. and have risk management in place. I would love to hear what other hospitals are doing with Syntocinon Inductions. Is it policy to use continuous CTG's throughout labour? Our policy is still at the updating stage and has room for change (hopefully) Thank you also Emily for you advise. Linda -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
A friend of mine gave birth in a popular private Sydney hospital a few weeks ago, was induced (her choice, against OBs preference, amazingly he doesn't like to induce before 41w) - 2 doses of gel, ARM, synto. The only EFM was one trace at the start of the process. The midiwife caring for her asked her a number of times for a further trace, which she refused, usually by saying she wanted a shower now or to go to the toilet and that was that. She had discussed this plan with her OB in advance and knew she had his support, so she was fully prepared to send the midwife off to sort it out with him if the midwife had tried to bully her about it but it did not come to that. So there are hospitals around where it is possible. At 7:03 AM +1000 17/6/06, Kelly @ BellyBelly wrote: I would love to hear what other hospitals are doing with Syntocinon Inductions. Is it policy to use continuous CTG's throughout labour? From my perspective only, it seems to be all of them at the induced / augmented births I have been attending. I attend usually one but sometimes two births a month and it seems it's all part and parcel to be strapped down with Synto AND EFM in the bigger hospitals. Haven't been to a birth that's otherwise anyway. We work very hard to fob off any synt-happy midwives and doctors, especially where the membranes are ruptured even if it's only been an hour or two (yes I'm afraid there's pressure from midwives too, one was in a 'Know Your Midwife' program and thank goodness we were able to say no enough times as she did establish contractions on her own after the ARM). It's such a big effort sometimes that you can see how a woman without good support is going to be more likely to accept this as what's needed or feel overpowered, but you do it because you know you not only get synt you get continuous monitoring too. Say no and you get an entourage of doctors sometimes! Another challenge too is not only letting them have that choice, but choice without having an inappropriate comment made after she makes a choice alluding to the health of the baby, e.g. '... but if you keep labouring without the monitoring, I can't tell you / guarantee that everything will be okay for your baby down the track...' or mentioning the 's' word... (stillbirth). I don't know how many times one poor woman struggling to get the confidence to say no was spoken down too, not in a nasty way, but with lots of little dug in comments, she had to fight to say no to antibiotics, no to synto sooner after only an hour or two, EF monitoring, a drip for her baby in case he had strep b, which he didn't, the list goes on. Best Regards, Kelly Zantey Creator, BellyBelly.com.au Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood BellyBelly Birth Support - http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bowman Family Sent: Thursday, 21 September 2006 4:35 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used? Abby, I agree with you, the proceedure should not be compulsory and I will take this up with colleagues, women should be given the right to choose if they want this, and I suppose the best way to go is what Emily has suggested and explain to the mother and write it in their notes if they choose to not have EFM.. I find this whole policy/proceedure thing often very difficult to work with, but hospitals do have to work within the safety of policies and guidelines to protect not only the mother and baby, but the hospital and staff themselves. In a court of law they will have to show that they followed proceedure. and have risk management in place. I would love to hear what other hospitals are doing with Syntocinon Inductions. Is it policy to use continuous CTG's throughout labour? Our policy is still at the updating stage and has room for change (hopefully) Thank you also Emily for you advise. Linda -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- Jo Bourne Virtual Artists Pty Ltd -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
Yes EFMs are shown to cause c-secs and not protect even vulnerable babies against brain damage - the purported reason for using them in the first place! The solution is not to train staff more in using them because that is based on an entirely false premise but that's what RANZCOG promotes - see their website. The solution is to dump the technology because it not only fails to improve outcomes but has a deleterious effect on them. More machines does not equal more safety for women or babies, it means more lifethreatening and unnecessary surgery. J - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used? Therein lies the problem with management of birth...all women, babies and births are not the same, so if everyone caring for the woman and baby does the same thing, how can this possibly be considered appropriate evidence based care? That is such and excellent and valid point. Also, please someone correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't continuos EFM been proven to not affect outcomes in a positive way. If we are talking about policies written with evidence based care in mind, surely the policy should reflect evidence based care. ( whatever evidence based is!) Love Abby -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
So there are hospitals around where it is possible. I think in most cases it's that there are individual staff, nothing to do with the institutions. Some women have great births in some hospitals and for others the same place is a bloodbath. It's the staff you fluke on the day that have the biggest impact on your experience. J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
It's true, there is a lot of pot luck involved for consumers, it is certainly what scares me about hospitals. But in this case I am pretty sure that the only policy was for an initial trace because the midwife was fairly clearly out of her comfort zone and didn't pull out the it's policy argument. At 12:19 PM +1000 17/6/06, Janet Fraser wrote: So there are hospitals around where it is possible. I think in most cases it's that there are individual staff, nothing to do with the institutions. Some women have great births in some hospitals and for others the same place is a bloodbath. It's the staff you fluke on the day that have the biggest impact on your experience. J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- Jo Bourne Virtual Artists Pty Ltd -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
You know, a lot of the time I feel trapped between a rock and hard place!! I know that what has been said is not a personal attack, but working in the system (and how bad am I for succumbing to that?) makes me, by default, part of the problem. This I find very hard. I worked for 14 years as an independent midwife, it was hard yakka but extremely rewarding in all regards...I loved it. However, I was bearly able to keep food on the table, and paying bills was a nightmare.My belief was to keep my bookings manageable so that I could be there for all the women I worked with. In that time I never missed a birth. I believed I was working truly 'with woman'. In 2000 I went from homebirthing into a Level 3 referral hospital, because it was my misguided belief that I may learn something. (I had never worked with women with high risk pregnancies) and I really needed some financial stability in my life. The culture shock was immense and I spent the first few months wondering what the heck I had done. The midwives I worked with worked under the most horrendous conditions and time and time again I saw them raw with grief because they felt they were unable to give the care these women needed and were entitled to. Last year I started work at a brand new hospital in Berwick. A 'low risk' midwifery led unit...we endeavor to work with women in the true sense, we buck the system as much as we are able, which is often, and we bend the rules constantly, however,it is hard given that the medical profession, especially anaesthetists, have us over a barrel...this is where the rock and the hard place come in. We buck the system and we are hauled over the coals by the 'programme' and the medical establishment, we tow the line and we are shot down in flames by people who regard anything to do with hospitals as anti birthing women. Considering the hard work and effort we go to to work with and enable women to achieve the experience that is their right, I find some of what has been said quite insulting. Sure, there are midwives out there that are more medical model than midwives in the true sense, but this can be said for all people from all walks of life, and yes some policies etc are frustrating to work within, but unfortunately we can't work without them. Working in 'the system' is hard enough, it is a constant battle and an exhausting one at that. I am saddened by what I am reading and it just fuels my belief that midwifery is not where I want to be anymore. Sally -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: Re: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
Hi Sally, I'm sorry if you feel offended or upset by any discussion on this forum, I'm sure no-one intentionally does that because part of the joy of it is we are all able to talk without prejudice. Thank god there are midwives like you working your butts off to help women get the best birth in a totally awful system. And that is the truth the system isn't woman centred or well informed and in the main practice isn't evidence based. That doesn't mean everyone working in it is the same. If however everyone was as great as you there wouldn't be this sort of discussion happening. Last year I started work at a brand new hospital in Berwick. A 'low risk' midwifery led unit...we endeavor to work with women in the true sense, we buck the system as much as we are able, which is often, and we bend the rules constantly, however,it is hard given that the medical profession, especially anaesthetists, have us over a barrel...this is where the rock and the hard place come in. We buck the system and we are hauled over the coals by the 'programme' and the medical establishment, we tow the line and we are shot down in flames by people who regard anything to do with hospitals as anti birthing women. If any unit was perfect no-one would feel like they were bucking the system or bending the rules. Policies and procedures are guildlines they are not Australian law each woman should have equal choice. In or out of hospital. I for one know (As I have been there myself) how frustrating it is to keep knocking against a brick wall but if we don't all stand up and be counted and shout loudly about the ridiculous nature of our hospital obstetric system how will we change it. If every midwife working at the hospital said look we are not doing continuous monitoring (for example) because it's not evidence based then what would happen. They would have to change. Why don't we do this. Mainly because half of the midwives feel safer with it on regardless. It might sound like I'm talking people down and I'm sorry about that but it is true. Don't give up on midwifery because birthing women need midwives who feel passionately and practice well. Lisa Independent midwife -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: RE: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
I agree completely Jo. I have been reading this whole thread and feel really frustrated. So many things have gone through my head about what to write, but I feel so disheartened at the moment by all the horror stories I have been reading and hearing. One thing I find so frustrating is the whole being 'allowed' to do this and the hospital 'letting' the woman do that. It's like we're on detention at school and we're the naughty girls that don't know anything. Surely, if as much time and effort went into building up women's confidence in themselves and their ability to birth and know their bodies, as goes into 'policy' and 'protocol' writing, then there would not be a need for this conversation. I think we, as women, need to take back the power and start saying, we are 'allowing' you to do this to MY body, I am 'letting' you do that to my baby, I will decide when the time is right for any procedure I so admire women like Amy that do take back the power, for women only lose it because hey give it away. On that note, Amy, you wrote, I felt like I lost her support when I took the reigns and bucked against hospital protocol. It was like I had offended her...that she felt compromised by me asserting myself. ~ but I think the reality is that you never had her support and she shouldn't have been offended as SHE was the one causing the offence against you. She was comprimising you, your baby and your birth by not listening and supporting you, you being the true expert. When women take back their power and 'care providers' realise that they are not the true experts, then that will be the time when birth becomes more empowered, safer and peaceful with a lot less serious and endangering outcomes. Love Abby Surely the woman would know and wouldn't need it confirmed - so the hosp needs evidence because women can't be trusted to tell the truth. Gggrr! The more I read about this the more frustrating it gets. I supported at a homebirth last year where SROM occurred at 36 weeks, mum new that midwife wouldn't deliver at home before 37 weeks. Got checked at hosp, signed herself out (they wanted her to stay until labour started and to birth there) bed rest for 8 days - constant water trickling - 37 +1 labour started - 4 hours, beautiful healthy baby born in lounge room. Times, clocks, protocols, policies, it's all a load of rubbish. Jo -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: RE: [ozmidwifery] How long before synto is used?
I agree completely Jo. I have been reading this whole thread and feel really frustrated. So many things have gone through my head about what to write, but I feel so disheartened at the moment by all the horror stories I have been reading and hearing. One thing I find so frustrating is the whole being 'allowed' to do this and the hospital 'letting' the woman do that. It's like we're on detention at school and we're the naughty girls that don't know anything. Surely, if as much time and effort went into building up women's confidence in themselves and their ability to birth and know their bodies, as goes into 'policy' and 'protocol' writing, then there would not be a need for this conversation. I think we, as women, need to take back the power and start saying, we are 'allowing' you to do this to MY body, I am 'letting' you do that to my baby, I will decide when the time is right for any procedure I so admire women like Amy that do take back the power, for women only lose it because hey give it away. On that note, Amy, you wrote, I felt like I lost her support when I took the reigns and bucked against hospital protocol. It was like I had offended her...that she felt compromised by me asserting myself. ~ but I think the reality is that you never had her support and she shouldn't have been offended as SHE was the one causing the offence against you. She was comprimising you, your baby and your birth by not listening and supporting you, you being the true expert. When women take back their power and 'care providers' realise that they are not the true experts, then that will be the time when birth becomes more empowered, safer and peaceful with a lot less serious and endangering outcomes. Love Abby Surely the woman would know and wouldn't need it confirmed - so the hosp needs evidence because women can't be trusted to tell the truth. Gggrr! The more I read about this the more frustrating it gets. I supported at a homebirth last year where SROM occurred at 36 weeks, mum new that midwife wouldn't deliver at home before 37 weeks. Got checked at hosp, signed herself out (they wanted her to stay until labour started and to birth there) bed rest for 8 days - constant water trickling - 37 +1 labour started - 4 hours, beautiful healthy baby born in lounge room. Times, clocks, protocols, policies, it's all a load of rubbish. Jo -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
