Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-11 à 13:09:00, Max a écrit : And that's not the end of the vicious cycle. Students who saved their money to buy a Max license are often unwilling to accept that their work could have been done as easy in Pd, and sometimes even better and/or easier. Often they use and stick to Max simply because they have spent the money on it. They then keep paying for the updates. this is referred to as the concorde effect. It's not just the money that you put on it, it's also the learning effort, and the effort of rebuilding the patches using slightly or not-so-slightly different components. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
And that's not the end of the vicious cycle. Students who saved their money to buy a Max license are often unwilling to accept that their work could have been done as easy in Pd, and sometimes even better and/or easier. If you think of free software as an ethical issue like I do and are talking about free programs that have a proprietary alternative, there is still an important division between those programs that are free and superior to their proprietary counterparts on practical grounds, and those that don't have the same feature set as their proprietary counterparts (but are still quite good). In terms of ease of patching, Pd is clearly in the latter camp-- Max has infinite undo, a Tidy Up that actually _does_ something useful, and a set of externals that allows to make multiple connections at once and lots of other shortcuts (maybe these are part of the core now, I'm not sure). Plus tooltips, anchors to resize guis/boxes/messages, and probably lots of other things that make patching easier. I use Pd and free software (almost) exclusively, but we should be clear about which features are available and which are not. and you're only talking about the aesthetical/workflow features. to bring up a subject that I am paying attention only now, try out to see how high you go with [expr pow(2,$f1)] until you loose resolution - 20 in pd, but 30 in max5 (the coming up of Pd double precision will help this, but it's a work Katja is doing alone). Which means, for example, in max you have more resolution than Pd to control the playback of large arrays with precision (up to 2147483647, around 12h of audio at 48KHz). High moral feeling (i.e. the we're better because we're free logo) isn't enough for precision dsp. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-13 à 10:46:00, João Pais a écrit : and you're only talking about the aesthetical/workflow features. to bring up a subject that I am paying attention only now, try out to see how high you go with [expr pow(2,$f1)] until you loose resolution - 20 in pd, but 30 in max5 (the coming up of Pd double precision will help this, but it's a work Katja is doing alone). There's a big difference between decimal precision as printed on screen and in text files and [netsend], and binary precision used in most other situations. Pd is able to think of numbers bigger than a million, but won't print a million plus one. It is able to if you force it to, using less than ideal tools such as [makefilename] that creates one symbol each time, or [#sprintf] that makes you a float list of ascii codes. Neither binary nor decimal representation is more precise than the other, it's just that their precision never matches exactly. 20 bits is slightly less than 6 decimals, whereas 16 decimals is slightly more than 53 bits. Thus you can only preserve precision by using slightly too many digits, otherwise you'll have too few. I don't know what max5 does, but the only practical float sizes in the main processor are 24 bits and 53 bits. (this assumes that the most significant bit is not recorded because it's always one) Which means, for example, in max you have more resolution than Pd to control the playback of large arrays with precision (up to 2147483647, that's 31 bits. From 0 to 2147483647, you have 2147483648 numbers, which is pow(2,31) exactly (aka 131), if it didn't overflow. the 32nd bit is the sign. That's using integers. I bet that you can't have integer signals. Can you ? Otherwise, you're stuck at the same limit as Pd... though Pd42 does offer a workaround as a 2nd inlet in [tabread~]. Does Max offer that 2nd inlet ? BTW : in floats, pd can exactly represent powers of two up to pow(2,127). Powers of two are represented exactly in binary. They just won't be printed exactly in decimal by default, but [makefilename %f] can print «symbol 170141183460469231731687303715884105728.00» accurately. The float format stops working just before getting to pow(2,128). But for [tabread~] you need contiguous integers, and that stops at 16777216, and for [tabread4~] you need at least some fractions to make it useful at all (contiguous sixteenths stop at 1048576, for example). So, your power-of-2 example is misleading in another way. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-13 à 08:05:00, Mathieu Bouchard a écrit : Neither binary nor decimal representation is more precise than the other, it's just that their precision never matches exactly. 20 bits is slightly less than 6 decimals, whereas 16 decimals is slightly more than 53 bits. Thus you can only preserve precision by using slightly too many digits, otherwise you'll have too few. erratum : i meant that 20 bits is slightly more than 6 decimals. 20 bits = 6.0205... decimals 24 bits = 7.2247... decimals 53 bits = 15.9545... decimals (And by «decimal» here, I mean all significant digits, not the other meaning of the word) __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
But whatever the theoretical precision of a float, I think the thing that makes Pd floats less precise than Max floats lies in the use of the %g format specifier to print them out, which can result in a lower precision than the float is capable of. This makes it possible to use maximum precision float calculations inside of objects but not between them. (and of course nothing stops an object using doubles internally.) Martin On 2012-01-13 08:11, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: Le 2012-01-13 à 08:05:00, Mathieu Bouchard a écrit : Neither binary nor decimal representation is more precise than the other, it's just that their precision never matches exactly. 20 bits is slightly less than 6 decimals, whereas 16 decimals is slightly more than 53 bits. Thus you can only preserve precision by using slightly too many digits, otherwise you'll have too few. erratum : i meant that 20 bits is slightly more than 6 decimals. 20 bits = 6.0205... decimals 24 bits = 7.2247... decimals 53 bits = 15.9545... decimals (And by «decimal» here, I mean all significant digits, not the other meaning of the word) __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Hi, João Pais wrote: see how high you go with [expr pow(2,$f1)] until you loose resolution - 20 in pd, but 30 in max5 (the coming up of Pd double precision will help this, but it's a work Katja is doing alone). High moral feeling (i.e. the we're better because we're free logo) isn't enough for precision dsp. Ok, so what your're saying is that for closed software, users have to wait for the owner of the software to add some feature, while for open source software, users have the possibility to add whatever feature they want. Both positions can take a while for a feature, so, what's your point ? Try considering openness as a technical feature. Cheers, Charlot ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
and you're only talking about the aesthetical/workflow features. to bring up a subject that I am paying attention only now, try out to see how high you go with [expr pow(2,$f1)] until you loose resolution - 20 in pd, but 30 in max5 (the coming up of Pd double precision will help this, but it's a work Katja is doing alone). There's a big difference between decimal precision as printed on screen and in text files and [netsend], and binary precision used in most other situations. Pd is able to think of numbers bigger than a million, but won't print a million plus one. It is able to if you force it to, using less than ideal tools such as [makefilename] that creates one symbol each time, or [#sprintf] that makes you a float list of ascii codes. Neither binary nor decimal representation is more precise than the other, it's just that their precision never matches exactly. 20 bits is slightly less than 6 decimals, whereas 16 decimals is slightly more than 53 bits. Thus you can only preserve precision by using slightly too many digits, otherwise you'll have too few. I don't know what max5 does, but the only practical float sizes in the main processor are 24 bits and 53 bits. (this assumes that the most significant bit is not recorded because it's always one) Which means, for example, in max you have more resolution than Pd to control the playback of large arrays with precision (up to 2147483647, that's 31 bits. From 0 to 2147483647, you have 2147483648 numbers, which is pow(2,31) exactly (aka 131), if it didn't overflow. the 32nd bit is the sign. That's using integers. I bet that you can't have integer signals. Can you ? Otherwise, you're stuck at the same limit as Pd... though Pd42 does offer a workaround as a 2nd inlet in [tabread~]. Does Max offer that 2nd inlet ? don't know, can't even find out which object corresponds to tabread4~ BTW : in floats, pd can exactly represent powers of two up to pow(2,127). Powers of two are represented exactly in binary. They just won't be printed exactly in decimal by default, but [makefilename %f] can print «symbol 170141183460469231731687303715884105728.00» accurately. The float format stops working just before getting to pow(2,128). But for [tabread~] you need contiguous integers, and that stops at 16777216, and for [tabread4~] you need at least some fractions to make it useful at all (contiguous sixteenths stop at 1048576, for example). So, your power-of-2 example is misleading in another way. I already have an abstraction in pd to automatically set the offset to play segments with tabread4~. But if I need e.g. to play indices 1 to 10111, which are read from an array, and then rescaled in the meantime, how is it possible to keep precision using symbol-tricks? The 2nd inlet doesn't help me much, if the numbers going inside are still wrong. Or, a concrete question: my table has 15312000 samples (5m19s@48K). You mean that if I want to play from index 15311000 to 15312019, (these values are read from a file and stored in an array, and also quantized in the way), the precision will be correct, just will be printed wrongly in the atom boxes? ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
João Pais wrote: see how high you go with [expr pow(2,$f1)] until you loose resolution - 20 in pd, but 30 in max5 (the coming up of Pd double precision will help this, but it's a work Katja is doing alone). High moral feeling (i.e. the we're better because we're free logo) isn't enough for precision dsp. Ok, so what your're saying is that for closed software, users have to wait for the owner of the software to add some feature, while for open source software, users have the possibility to add whatever feature they want. I wasn't even going there, was speaking only about quality of performance. Since you bring this topic in, you shouldn't say users, because I (and many people I know) can't do anything about improving the pd code until I learn enough about C programming, and that won't be happening in this life. In this case, user is the adequate name because she's working alone (with help of others, but she's doing the work alone), and if this user has better projects to develop, this feature won't go ahead. And, in the way things are implemented, even if she manages to make double versions of all branches of Pd (vanilla + ext in all build systems) and maintain them in the next years, doesn't mean that this will ever caught up in pd-core (pd-van) - looking at the current tradition, it will take a long time. Both positions can take a while for a feature, so, what's your point ? Try considering openness as a technical feature. I'm saying that just because the software is free/open, doesn't make it better for one task than it's non-free partners (the inverse applies as well, of course). And sometimes just saying here it's better, because there is no eye candy and people have to learn how to really program doesn't improve the quality of the program as a whole. About openness, I'm not interested in theoretical openness, because we don't live in a theoretical world. Development depends on real people, and if they can manage to allocate time and effort to create concrete things (code, in this example). I'm sure there's lots of open code around svn or other repositories which isn't going anywhere, openness isn't making it develop itself. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-13 à 16:10:00, João Pais a écrit : I already have an abstraction in pd to automatically set the offset to play segments with tabread4~. But if I need e.g. to play indices 1 to 10111, which are read from an array, and then rescaled in the meantime, how is it possible to keep precision using symbol-tricks? No. A hundred million is already beyond capacity of the float32 format (in terms of contiguïty), anything made with text formats will get converted to float32 before they get used. The 2nd inlet doesn't help me much, if the numbers going inside are still wrong. What can I say... just don't make them wrong ! :} Or, a concrete question: my table has 15312000 samples (5m19s@48K). You mean that if I want to play from index 15311000 to 15312019, (these values are read from a file and stored in an array, and also quantized in the way), the precision will be correct, just will be printed wrongly in the atom boxes? For [tabread~], yes, because they're below 16777216. For [tabread4~], it will be exactly like plain [tabread4~], because starting at half of 16777216, you don't have fractional indices anymore, and the whole point of [tabread4~] is to use fractional indices. For normal playback, [tabread~] is ok, but if you want to speed up or slow down the playback, you may need a few extra bits of precision to prevent certain artifacts. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Paywares or freeware same problem, for example, you can not load more than 4g into RAM with ableton live because it's 32bit, also the error message for out memory only come with the last release, so live was crashing but without knowing what's happening during more than ten years. This problem didn't prevent live from being one of the most famous software, so this kind of limitation doesn't seem to be a valuable argument against programmes. Colet Patrice - Mail original - De: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca À: João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com Cc: pd list pd-list@iem.at, Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com Envoyé: Vendredi 13 Janvier 2012 19:35:28 Objet: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Le 2012-01-13 à 16:10:00, João Pais a écrit : I already have an abstraction in pd to automatically set the offset to play segments with tabread4~. But if I need e.g. to play indices 1 to 10111, which are read from an array, and then rescaled in the meantime, how is it possible to keep precision using symbol-tricks? No. A hundred million is already beyond capacity of the float32 format (in terms of contiguïty), anything made with text formats will get converted to float32 before they get used. The 2nd inlet doesn't help me much, if the numbers going inside are still wrong. What can I say... just don't make them wrong ! :} Or, a concrete question: my table has 15312000 samples (5m19s@48K). You mean that if I want to play from index 15311000 to 15312019, (these values are read from a file and stored in an array, and also quantized in the way), the precision will be correct, just will be printed wrongly in the atom boxes? For [tabread~], yes, because they're below 16777216. For [tabread4~], it will be exactly like plain [tabread4~], because starting at half of 16777216, you don't have fractional indices anymore, and the whole point of [tabread4~] is to use fractional indices. For normal playback, [tabread~] is ok, but if you want to speed up or slow down the playback, you may need a few extra bits of precision to prevent certain artifacts. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, | QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
- Original Message - From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca To: João Pais jmmmp...@googlemail.com Cc: Max abonneme...@revolwear.com; Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; pd list pd-list@iem.at; Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Le 2012-01-13 à 16:10:00, João Pais a écrit : I already have an abstraction in pd to automatically set the offset to play segments with tabread4~. But if I need e.g. to play indices 1 to 10111, which are read from an array, and then rescaled in the meantime, how is it possible to keep precision using symbol-tricks? No. A hundred million is already beyond capacity of the float32 format (in terms of contiguïty), anything made with text formats will get converted to float32 before they get used. The 2nd inlet doesn't help me much, if the numbers going inside are still wrong. What can I say... just don't make them wrong ! :} Or, a concrete question: my table has 15312000 samples (5m19s@48K). You mean that if I want to play from index 15311000 to 15312019, (these values are read from a file and stored in an array, and also quantized in the way), the precision will be correct, just will be printed wrongly in the atom boxes? For [tabread~], yes, because they're below 16777216. For [tabread4~], it will be exactly like plain [tabread4~], because starting at half of 16777216, you don't have fractional indices anymore, and the whole point of [tabread4~] is to use fractional indices. For normal playback, [tabread~] is ok, but if you want to speed up or slow down the playback, you may need a few extra bits of precision to prevent certain artifacts. With Katja'sdouble-precision Pd does this problem go away? -Jonathan __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-13 à 11:14:00, Jonathan Wilkes a écrit : From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca For [tabread~], yes, because they're below 16777216. With Katja'sdouble-precision Pd does this problem go away? If it does what I think it does, Katja's build reduces the problem by a factor of 536870912. You can split that factor between increased table duration, increased table sampling rate, increased subsample resolution (tabread4), and increased waste of cpu watts. For all practical purposes, the 2nd-inlet hacks are also unnecessary, which reduces the complexity of tabread patches that access large tables, if they are made to rely on katja's build. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-13 à 09:06:00, Martin Peach a écrit : But whatever the theoretical precision of a float, I think the thing that makes Pd floats less precise than Max floats lies in the use of the %g format specifier to print them out, which can result in a lower precision than the float is capable of. The %g specifier is able to print at full precision, if you instruct it to, but pd only uses something like %.6g, whereas you'd need %.8g to conserve all the binary precision (%.7g is slightly not enough, %.8g is too much, but there's not a %.7½g). To conserve the decimal precision, however, you flip it around : in a 32-bit float, you can only load a %.7g without loss, and a %.8g won't fit. But this only applies if the data really has %.8g precision to start with, which is not the case with %.8g numbers that came from float32, which really have only 7.2247 decimals of precision, which fits exactly in float32. This makes it possible to use maximum precision float calculations inside of objects but not between them. Between two objects communicating by float messages from outlet to inlet, things happen only in binary, and you already know that. This means that you can have 24-bit float32 precision between objects. The drop to 19.93 bits of precision (%.6g) occurs only when converting to decimal ascii text and back. Right ? __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
I think Pd uses %g which probably means %.6g by default, but it looks more like %.5g. You're right, the precision is only lost when the patcher is written out somewhere. In the attached patcher clicking on [1( calculates pi, which gets printed to a number box and the screen in 5 digit precision as 3.14159, but the subsequent [sin] object gives a value much closer to zero than when you click on [3.14159(, so the numbber box is hiding some extra precision. Martin But whatever the theoretical precision of a float, I think the thing that makes Pd floats less precise than Max floats lies in the use of the %g format specifier to print them out, which can result in a lower precision than the float is capable of. The %g specifier is able to print at full precision, if you instruct it to, but pd only uses something like %.6g, whereas you'd need %.8g to conserve all the binary precision (%.7g is slightly not enough, %.8g is too much, but there's not a %.7½g). To conserve the decimal precision, however, you flip it around : in a 32-bit float, you can only load a %.7g without loss, and a %.8g won't fit. But this only applies if the data really has %.8g precision to start with, which is not the case with %.8g numbers that came from float32, which really have only 7.2247 decimals of precision, which fits exactly in float32. This makes it possible to use maximum precision float calculations inside of objects but not between them. Between two objects communicating by float messages from outlet to inlet, things happen only in binary, and you already know that. This means that you can have 24-bit float32 precision between objects. The drop to 19.93 bits of precision (%.6g) occurs only when converting to decimal ascii text and back. Right ? __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list #N canvas 364 685 450 300 10; #X msg 32 18 1; #X obj 32 44 atan; #X obj 32 68 * 4; #X floatatom 61 104 15 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 111 138 sin; #X floatatom 141 160 15 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 112 188 print sin; #X obj 32 132 print atan; #X connect 0 0 1 0; #X connect 1 0 2 0; #X connect 2 0 3 0; #X connect 2 0 4 0; #X connect 2 0 7 0; #X connect 4 0 5 0; #X connect 4 0 6 0; ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Here's a more complete example of the precision thing. Martin #N canvas 364 685 450 300 10; #X msg 32 18 1; #X obj 32 44 atan; #X obj 32 68 * 4; #X floatatom 92 85 15 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 111 164 sin; #X floatatom 160 181 15 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 111 214 print sin; #X obj 32 158 print atan; #X obj 267 145 sin; #X floatatom 316 162 15 0 0 0 - - -; #X obj 267 195 print sin; #X msg 267 105 3.14159; #X connect 0 0 1 0; #X connect 1 0 2 0; #X connect 2 0 3 0; #X connect 2 0 4 0; #X connect 2 0 7 0; #X connect 3 0 8 0; #X connect 4 0 5 0; #X connect 4 0 6 0; #X connect 8 0 9 0; #X connect 8 0 10 0; #X connect 11 0 8 0; ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-13 à 20:12:00, martin.pe...@sympatico.ca a écrit : In the attached patcher clicking on [1( calculates pi, which gets printed to a number box and the screen in 5 digit precision as 3.14159, but the subsequent [sin] object gives a value much closer to zero than when you click on [3.14159(, so the numbber box is hiding some extra precision. When x is close to pi, sin(x) is close to x-pi. Neat trick for computing an approximation of x-pi without having to state what pi is. Though you could actually do [expr x-2*asin(1)] instead. The difference between sin(x) and x-pi is only about ⅓(x-pi)², so it doesn't really matter. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
- Original Message - From: Max abonneme...@revolwear.com To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.com; pd list pd-list@iem.at; Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF And that's not the end of the vicious cycle. Students who saved their money to buy a Max license are often unwilling to accept that their work could have been done as easy in Pd, and sometimes even better and/or easier. If you think of free software as an ethical issue like I do and are talking about free programs that have a proprietary alternative, there is still an important division between those programs that are free and superior to their proprietary counterparts on practical grounds, and those that don't have the same feature set as their proprietary counterparts (but are still quite good). In terms of ease of patching, Pd is clearly in the latter camp-- Max has infinite undo, a Tidy Up that actually _does_ something useful, and a set of externals that allows to make multiple connections at once and lots of other shortcuts (maybe these are part of the core now, I'm not sure). Plus tooltips, anchors to resize guis/boxes/messages, and probably lots of other things that make patching easier. I use Pd and free software (almost) exclusively, but we should be clear about which features are available and which are not. -Jonathan Often they use and stick to Max simply because they have spent the money on it. They then keep paying for the updates. this is referred to as the concorde effect. M Am 11.01.2012 um 00:23 schrieb Jonathan Wilkes: No, there really are music students out there looking at what they need in order to be successful, and when most of the voices around them are aggressively (and often ignorantly) suggesting only proprietary tools that cost lots of money, these students save up their meager resources in order to buy them. I'm talking about students who are probably already in debt from loans, and it's quite common that they max out on their technology budget and as a consequence are unable to attend a festival. What's even worse is that these constrained options lead to a lot of those students downloading cracked copies of proprietary software (and the negative effects there usually manifest themselves more quickly and concretely). -Jonathan From: Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.com To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com; pd list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Not a bad point... but, or more likely because they are supporting only those artists able to afford such things as expensive software, travel and food. On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I can't think of a better example of the vicious cycle of software lock-in than this. They don't have money to offer financial support, so they have to rely on the tools that they know, which are proprietary and expensive, thus making it even less likely that a composer would be able to afford to travel to the concert (because he/she had to spend money on either Max/MSP or Kyma to composer the piece in the first place). -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Hi list! I got a more clear response from the organizers on this issue than anything I've seen in this thread so far - here it is: Hi Ben, thanks for your Interest in our Call. We accepts only patches made with Kyma or Max/MSP due the fact we are not able to provide financial support for the two selected composers. So it is possible that they will not be able to be in Milan for the concert. To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Federico Placidi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Richie ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
And that's not the end of the vicious cycle. Students who saved their money to buy a Max license are often unwilling to accept that their work could have been done as easy in Pd, and sometimes even better and/or easier. Often they use and stick to Max simply because they have spent the money on it. They then keep paying for the updates. this is referred to as the concorde effect. M Am 11.01.2012 um 00:23 schrieb Jonathan Wilkes: No, there really are music students out there looking at what they need in order to be successful, and when most of the voices around them are aggressively (and often ignorantly) suggesting only proprietary tools that cost lots of money, these students save up their meager resources in order to buy them. I'm talking about students who are probably already in debt from loans, and it's quite common that they max out on their technology budget and as a consequence are unable to attend a festival. What's even worse is that these constrained options lead to a lot of those students downloading cracked copies of proprietary software (and the negative effects there usually manifest themselves more quickly and concretely). -Jonathan From: Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.com To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com; pd list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Not a bad point... but, or more likely because they are supporting only those artists able to afford such things as expensive software, travel and food. On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I can't think of a better example of the vicious cycle of software lock-in than this. They don't have money to offer financial support, so they have to rely on the tools that they know, which are proprietary and expensive, thus making it even less likely that a composer would be able to afford to travel to the concert (because he/she had to spend money on either Max/MSP or Kyma to composer the piece in the first place). -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Hi list! I got a more clear response from the organizers on this issue than anything I've seen in this thread so far - here it is: Hi Ben, thanks for your Interest in our Call. We accepts only patches made with Kyma or Max/MSP due the fact we are not able to provide financial support for the two selected composers. So it is possible that they will not be able to be in Milan for the concert. To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Federico Placidi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Richie ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
The opus could be written with a place for creativity, it depends on the musician. I agree, the artist keeps the control, theoritically. What's happening when many artist (a grand majority in fact) cease acting this artistic 'nature '? Must the bulkys (the neo-archaic), to shout to the world that they are subjected by an injustice? They do what they want, but I think that's more interesting to incorporate this new data and try to to corrupt it by inside. Perhaps I'm wrong, we'll see. Notice in those several verses that France the only country where we need a license, when it's time to make a public performance, just becomes expensive when it's about to dance. Not only to dance, and a number too, for every artwork, a code bar. When this system came, first I refused it. The DRAC (regional cultural administration) said to me: You act in illegality! I asked them if (symbolically) they are ready to ask a license to Antonin Artaud. No answer, of course. I kept this license 3 years and I stopped this administrative joke. Interessant detail, this license resembles mysteriously a license of tobacco or alcohol seller. Art is toxic, do not misuse! But this system has a fault (not only one), like any system, I explore this fault in all illegality. What is this fault? The nature of all artwork, irreproductibility. No formatted record, no reproduction of the same opus. Like you said: The opus could be written with a place for creativity, it depends on the musician. And I add, the concept of every opus must exclude any possibility of reproduction. Rock-Art2noise ( a primates artwork) also answers this requirement In the facts, these data become for me an intriguing dogma and surely not an outdated one reactionary attitude. Each is free to act in its please. As for the donors of lessons, which they come to work in the douce France. We have some interessant dogma for them. Au plaisir, Tad Patrice Colet a écrit : De: TAD BISAHA tadbis...@gmail.com Cc: PD List pd-list@iem.at Envoyé: Lundi 9 Janvier 2012 13:24:22 About production and creation, when a musician for exemple play a second time, just a second time, one of his own opus, can one still name the result a creation? The opus could be written with a place for creativity, it depends on the musician. In France we call that diffusion, but with this spirit, all become production, it's certainly that what they call the cultural exception. Notice in those several verses that France the only country where we need a license, when it's time to make a public performance, just becomes expensive when it's about to dance. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
I can't think of a better example of the vicious cycle of software lock-in than this. They don't have money to offer financial support, so they have to rely on the tools that they know, which are proprietary and expensive, thus making it even less likely that a composer would be able to afford to travel to the concert (because he/she had to spend money on either Max/MSP or Kyma to composer the piece in the first place). -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Hi list! I got a more clear response from the organizers on this issue than anything I've seen in this thread so far - here it is: Hi Ben, thanks for your Interest in our Call. We accepts only patches made with Kyma or Max/MSP due the fact we are not able to provide financial support for the two selected composers. So it is possible that they will not be able to be in Milan for the concert. To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Federico Placidi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Dagnabit! I wanted it to be an anti-libre conspiracy! This discussion has been wonderful nonetheless =) On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.comwrote: Hi list! I got a more clear response from the organizers on this issue than anything I've seen in this thread so far - here it is: Hi Ben, thanks for your Interest in our Call. We accepts only patches made with Kyma or Max/MSP due the fact we are not able to provide financial support for the two selected composers. So it is possible that they will not be able to be in Milan for the concert. To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Federico Placidi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Richie ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Not a bad point... but, or more likely because they are supporting only those artists able to afford such things as expensive software, travel and food. On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I can't think of a better example of the vicious cycle of software lock-in than this. They don't have money to offer financial support, so they have to rely on the tools that they know, which are proprietary and expensive, thus making it even less likely that a composer would be able to afford to travel to the concert (because he/she had to spend money on either Max/MSP or Kyma to composer the piece in the first place). -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Hi list! I got a more clear response from the organizers on this issue than anything I've seen in this thread so far - here it is: Hi Ben, thanks for your Interest in our Call. We accepts only patches made with Kyma or Max/MSP due the fact we are not able to provide financial support for the two selected composers. So it is possible that they will not be able to be in Milan for the concert. To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Federico Placidi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Richie ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
No, there really are music students out there looking at what they need in order to be successful, and when most of the voices around them are aggressively (and often ignorantly) suggesting only proprietary tools that cost lots of money, these students save up their meager resources in order to buy them. I'm talking about students who are probably already in debt from loans, and it's quite common that they max out on their technology budget and as a consequence are unable to attend a festival. What's even worse is that these constrained options lead to a lot of those students downloading cracked copies of proprietary software (and the negative effects there usually manifest themselves more quickly and concretely). -Jonathan From: Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.com To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com; pd list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Not a bad point... but, or more likely because they are supporting only those artists able to afford such things as expensive software, travel and food. On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I can't think of a better example of the vicious cycle of software lock-in than this. They don't have money to offer financial support, so they have to rely on the tools that they know, which are proprietary and expensive, thus making it even less likely that a composer would be able to afford to travel to the concert (because he/she had to spend money on either Max/MSP or Kyma to composer the piece in the first place). -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Hi list! I got a more clear response from the organizers on this issue than anything I've seen in this thread so far - here it is: Hi Ben, thanks for your Interest in our Call. We accepts only patches made with Kyma or Max/MSP due the fact we are not able to provide financial support for the two selected composers. So it is possible that they will not be able to be in Milan for the concert. To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Federico Placidi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Richie ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
I would not try to crack Max/Msp, nor do any of my students engage in such poor practices I took a Kyma class in Grad school, it sounded awesome but was way out of my price range of course From: pd-list-boun...@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-boun...@iem.at] On Behalf Of Jonathan Wilkes Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 6:24 PM To: Richie Cyngler Cc: pd list; Ben Baker-Smith Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF No, there really are music students out there looking at what they need in order to be successful, and when most of the voices around them are aggressively (and often ignorantly) suggesting only proprietary tools that cost lots of money, these students save up their meager resources in order to buy them. I'm talking about students who are probably already in debt from loans, and it's quite common that they max out on their technology budget and as a consequence are unable to attend a festival. What's even worse is that these constrained options lead to a lot of those students downloading cracked copies of proprietary software (and the negative effects there usually manifest themselves more quickly and concretely). -Jonathan From: Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.commailto:glitch...@gmail.com To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.commailto:jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.commailto:bbakersm...@gmail.com; pd list pd-list@iem.atmailto:pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Not a bad point... but, or more likely because they are supporting only those artists able to afford such things as expensive software, travel and food. On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.commailto:jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I can't think of a better example of the vicious cycle of software lock-in than this. They don't have money to offer financial support, so they have to rely on the tools that they know, which are proprietary and expensive, thus making it even less likely that a composer would be able to afford to travel to the concert (because he/she had to spend money on either Max/MSP or Kyma to composer the piece in the first place). -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.commailto:bbakersm...@gmail.com To: pd list pd-list@iem.atmailto:pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Hi list! I got a more clear response from the organizers on this issue than anything I've seen in this thread so far - here it is: Hi Ben, thanks for your Interest in our Call. We accepts only patches made with Kyma or Max/MSP due the fact we are not able to provide financial support for the two selected composers. So it is possible that they will not be able to be in Milan for the concert. To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Federico Placidi ___ Pd-list@iem.atmailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.atmailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Richie ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
You're right Jonathan, I completely agree. I really shouldn't post things until I've had breakfast. Or try to be light and ironic on topics that I believe strongly in, i.e. cynicism != useful in most situations. On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.comwrote: No, there really are music students out there looking at what they need in order to be successful, and when most of the voices around them are aggressively (and often ignorantly) suggesting only proprietary tools that cost lots of money, these students save up their meager resources in order to buy them. I'm talking about students who are probably already in debt from loans, and it's quite common that they max out on their technology budget and as a consequence are unable to attend a festival. What's even worse is that these constrained options lead to a lot of those students downloading cracked copies of proprietary software (and the negative effects there usually manifest themselves more quickly and concretely). -Jonathan -- *From:* Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.com *To:* Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com *Cc:* Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com; pd list pd-list@iem.at *Sent:* Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:53 PM *Subject:* Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Not a bad point... but, or more likely because they are supporting only those artists able to afford such things as expensive software, travel and food. On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.comwrote: I can't think of a better example of the vicious cycle of software lock-in than this. They don't have money to offer financial support, so they have to rely on the tools that they know, which are proprietary and expensive, thus making it even less likely that a composer would be able to afford to travel to the concert (because he/she had to spend money on either Max/MSP or Kyma to composer the piece in the first place). -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Hi list! I got a more clear response from the organizers on this issue than anything I've seen in this thread so far - here it is: Hi Ben, thanks for your Interest in our Call. We accepts only patches made with Kyma or Max/MSP due the fact we are not able to provide financial support for the two selected composers. So it is possible that they will not be able to be in Milan for the concert. To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Federico Placidi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Richie -- Richie ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
From: Pagano, Patrick p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.com Cc: pd list pd-list@iem.at; Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 6:33 PM Subject: RE: [PD] no pd?? WTF I would not try to crack Max/Msp, nor do any of my students engage in such poor practices Do you require them to use Max? I took a Kyma class in Grad school, it sounded awesome but was way out of my price range of course From:pd-list-boun...@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-boun...@iem.at] On Behalf Of Jonathan Wilkes Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 6:24 PM To: Richie Cyngler Cc: pd list; Ben Baker-Smith Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF No, there really are music students out there looking at what they need in order to be successful, and when most of the voices around them are aggressively (and often ignorantly) suggesting only proprietary tools that cost lots of money, these students save up their meager resources in order to buy them. I'm talking about students who are probably already in debt from loans, and it's quite common that they max out on their technology budget and as a consequence are unable to attend a festival. What's even worse is that these constrained options lead to a lot of those students downloading cracked copies of proprietary software (and the negative effects there usually manifest themselves more quickly and concretely). -Jonathan From:Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.com To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com; pd list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Not a bad point... but, or more likely because they are supporting only those artists able to afford such things as expensive software, travel and food. On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I can't think of a better example of the vicious cycle of software lock-in than this. They don't have money to offer financial support, so they have to rely on the tools that they know, which are proprietary and expensive, thus making it even less likely that a composer would be able to afford to travel to the concert (because he/she had to spend money on either Max/MSP or Kyma to composer the piece in the first place). -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Ben Baker-Smith bbakersm...@gmail.com To: pd list pd-list@iem.at Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Hi list! I got a more clear response from the organizers on this issue than anything I've seen in this thread so far - here it is: Hi Ben, thanks for your Interest in our Call. We accepts only patches made with Kyma or Max/MSP due the fact we are not able to provide financial support for the two selected composers. So it is possible that they will not be able to be in Milan for the concert. To avoid technical issues we choose the plattforms we already use in our work or we are very familiar with. This is the only reason. If the selected composer can assure us to be available for the concert the can be used any piece of software/hardware. I hope this helps. Many thanks Federico Placidi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Richie ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
On 06/01/12 23:11, Charles Henry wrote: 2012/1/6 Jonathan Wilkesjancs...@yahoo.com: - Original Message - From: alexa...@lurk.org To: András Murányimuran...@gmail.com Cc: Pd - listpd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Ha, I got a different reply earlier: We decied to avoid the use of Pd and SuperCollider for internal and technical resons and unfortunately we cannot change our policy. So please, if you are interested in the call, please send a more pertinent question. I wonder what software would be good for quickly prototyping a solution to whatever technical problem prevents the use of Pd and Supercollider in a realtime DSP performance... lack of tech support phone numbers? Maybe they think they won't be able to set up the patches for their review process and so opted only to accept patches for performances they think they are confidently able to. Otherwise, the technical issues are between their ears--or in IT support speak, between the chair and keyboard (BTCK). I think they (and the panel) simply have no clue on how to use Pd or Supercollider. While I understand that I think it's no excuse, at least for Pd they could ask people to send self-contained patches with instructions, I mean the patch could be very complicated but have just a big bang a big toggle and some markers/counters for the performers. That said -- I notice that on the previously sent link the http://usoproject.blogspot.com/2011/12/call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012.html mention to Pd and/or Supercollider seems to have been removed. Lorenzo. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
A cat? You don't like the cats? however, at all times cats make what they want, as Steve Jobs... obviously he liked what he made, no? By staying only in the field of the independent persons like developer or artist. Every day, a lot of people like what they do, I hope so. I'm perhaps wrong, but my glance is a little bit different. All people make things because they like to make it, but a little part of them don't assume, they are pushed and oppressed by them even, certainly no by what we call: the system (The market is only a part of it). In outlines, choices are simple and do they really exist? (Choice or capacity of adaptation or submission?) We integrate the in or the out (with reversibility). In fact, there's no off, no underground, no revolution, no counter-revolution, no anti but there's a place for the off, it's the place for the pushed and oppressed guys, they chose this place. But Offland is a part of the Inland (we mustn't forget that...). The Outland can't have off, can't have underground, its revolution is systemic, its conformity... In that case, who obeys? Everybody. In what? In what we could call, the poetry of the life. The rest is only debate of lower middle class persons fed and satisfied whose we form also part... About production and creation, when a musician for exemple play a second time, just a second time, one of his own opus, can one still name the result a creation? In France we call that diffusion, but with this spirit, all become production, it's certainly that what they call the cultural exception. A Grand Market with private and public shops, with private and public rules, with a off and its shops too. The spirit, the sense, the arts? Search well, but you will not cross them in these places. There's no shop for dignity. Search them in your curious free and open land. Au plaisir Tad / Free and open like the software I use for acting my shit music ??/ ydego...@gmail.com a écrit : Chris McCormick wrote: On 01/05/2012 01:04 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: Chris McCormick wrote: On 01/04/2012 03:36 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: productivity? that's what we should hate... fuck yes! i define success as not working, and i live like a king. (nofx) hey chris, i'm droiding party, i see it as the major kewl thing in pd these past years sooo great keep the good work ... Hi Yves, I'm glad you are enjoying the port of Pd. Thank you very much for CC'ing the list with my private message and outing me as a closet capitalism-hating punk. http://mccormick.cx/gfx/cas405-180bpm.gif Cheers, Chris. bah you know it's no secret and an honour for you, but if i missed the point, are they any capitalist-loving people on this list ? hum ok maybe... i'd like to think people make things because they like to do it, not because they are pushed and oppressed by market needs that's what we meant no? production just means obey, creating is following your own ideas, and maybe you'll get wrong like Steve Jobs ... oh he must be a cat now anyway... salut! sevy ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
In fact, there's no off, no underground, no revolution, no counter-revolution, no anti but there's a place for the off, it's the place for the pushed and oppressed guys, they chose this place. But Offland is a part of the Inland (we mustn't forget that...). what is this confuse post-capitalism discourse? i'm happy to read the confusion that has been spread in youngster's minds... but classes stilll exist and some people will die of cold in the Outland, good! ( because all is an experience in life, blah blah blah )... For you, we are all happy in a post-capitalist world. ( you are so post-post-post that you get back to primitivism ) the only thing that exists is counter-revolution and you hellp it, thank you. savy ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Thanks for your mature answer dad which shines however less than the moon this evening. Did you see it? Probably not, too archaic for you. A point only, you lend me too much power. Do not forget, I am nothing for you. Do not be afraid, breathe. I'm nothing, just a pair of mislaid ear in the stone age. Have a good beer Tad / Free and open like the flintware I use for acting my shit of parietal noise in brutality without petit-bourgeois phantasm Tadbone / ydego...@gmail.com a écrit : In fact, there's no off, no underground, no revolution, no counter-revolution, no anti but there's a place for the off, it's the place for the pushed and oppressed guys, they chose this place. But Offland is a part of the Inland (we mustn't forget that...). what is this confuse post-capitalism discourse? i'm happy to read the confusion that has been spread in youngster's minds... but classes stilll exist and some people will die of cold in the Outland, good! ( because all is an experience in life, blah blah blah )... For you, we are all happy in a post-capitalist world. ( you are so post-post-post that you get back to primitivism ) the only thing that exists is counter-revolution and you hellp it, thank you. savy ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
De: TAD BISAHA tadbis...@gmail.com Cc: PD List pd-list@iem.at Envoyé: Lundi 9 Janvier 2012 13:24:22 About production and creation, when a musician for exemple play a second time, just a second time, one of his own opus, can one still name the result a creation? The opus could be written with a place for creativity, it depends on the musician. In France we call that diffusion, but with this spirit, all become production, it's certainly that what they call the cultural exception. Notice in those several verses that France the only country where we need a license, when it's time to make a public performance, just becomes expensive when it's about to dance. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
the funniest thing imho is, that their call talks about the ecosystem paradigm and quotes as its main proponent agostino di scipio who himself once said: I also work with PD. [...] works of mine have been performed by colleagues who work with software I tend to avoid (like Max/MSP). (i found this on sonic arts list, full quote below) if that isn´t putting your foot in your mouth, i dunno... h www.hans-w-koch.net On 5 Jan 2012, at 05:23, Sonia Paço-Rocchia wrote: Well, we are close with this article, but, I still don't 'really' understand what is 'ecosystemic' paradigm. http://usoproject.blogspot.com/2010/06/conversation-with-agostino-di-scipio.html I also work with PD. [...] works of mine have been performed by colleagues who work with software I tend to avoid (like Max/MSP). This chief proponent of the ecosystemic paradigm would appear to be in violation of internal policy. -- N. Nick Rothwell / Cassiel.com Limited ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-06 à 11:08:00, hans w. koch a écrit : the funniest thing imho is, that their call talks about the ecosystem paradigm and quotes as its main proponent agostino di scipio who himself once said: I also work with PD. [...] works of mine have been performed by colleagues who work with software I tend to avoid (like Max/MSP). (i found this on sonic arts list, full quote below) if that isn´t putting your foot in your mouth, i dunno... Still, it takes someone knowledgeable about those things, to figure out the blunder about ecosystem paradigm and Di Scipio. Most people who read the announcement wouldn't have any idea about what's funny. That includes me and perhaps nearly everybody on pd-list. This means that when you find contradictions like that and think that they ought to be known, you have to point them out on relevant mailing-lists. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
thats why i included the footer with the original reference...still takes some reading, though. i thought that was an acceptable balance between proper sourcing and my laziness :-) hans www.hans-w-koch.net Am 06.01.2012 um 19:24 schrieb Mathieu Bouchard: Le 2012-01-06 à 11:08:00, hans w. koch a écrit : the funniest thing imho is, that their call talks about the ecosystem paradigm and quotes as its main proponent agostino di scipio who himself once said: I also work with PD. [...] works of mine have been performed by colleagues who work with software I tend to avoid (like Max/MSP). (i found this on sonic arts list, full quote below) if that isn´t putting your foot in your mouth, i dunno... Still, it takes someone knowledgeable about those things, to figure out the blunder about ecosystem paradigm and Di Scipio. Most people who read the announcement wouldn't have any idea about what's funny. That includes me and perhaps nearly everybody on pd-list. This means that when you find contradictions like that and think that they ought to be known, you have to point them out on relevant mailing-lists. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-06 à 20:39:00, hans w. koch a écrit : thats why i included the footer with the original reference...still takes some reading, though. i thought that was an acceptable balance between proper sourcing and my laziness :-) hans I just meant to encourage you, to post the same things on other forums, and also post any other crunchy info here and on other forums. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
- Original Message - From: alex a...@lurk.org To: András Murányi muran...@gmail.com Cc: Pd - list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Ha, I got a different reply earlier: We decied to avoid the use of Pd and SuperCollider for internal and technical resons and unfortunately we cannot change our policy. So please, if you are interested in the call, please send a more pertinent question. I wonder what software would be good for quickly prototyping a solution to whatever technical problem prevents the use of Pd and Supercollider in a realtime DSP performance... -Jonathan So apparently there are reasons but they forgot what they were? 2012/1/3 András Murányi muran...@gmail.com: I thought it would be easiest to ask the guys behind the submission address (submissi...@synesthesiarecordings.com). Not that i got a real answer. If you have an idea how to follow up, I'm interested. Andras -- Forwarded message -- From: Federico Placidi federico.plac...@gmail.com Date: 2012/1/3 Subject: Re: Sonic Screens - why no pd/sc? To: András Murányi muran...@gmail.com Many thanks for your interest in our call, About PD and SC there is no specific reason, It is just an internal policy. Many thanks, Federico Placidi, Matteo Milani 2012/1/3 András Murányi muran...@gmail.com Hello, I'd like to know why PureData and SuperCollider based projects are excluded from the contest. Thanks, ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://yaxu.org/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
De: alex a...@lurk.org Envoyé: Mercredi 4 Janvier 2012 01:12:14 Ha, I got a different reply earlier: We decied to avoid the use of Pd and SuperCollider for internal and technical resons and unfortunately we cannot change our policy. So please, if you are interested in the call, please send a more pertinent question. So apparently there are reasons but they forgot what they were? They spent all the budget to get softwares, now there isn't enough to give out free beer... ^^ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
2012/1/6 Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com: - Original Message - From: alex a...@lurk.org To: András Murányi muran...@gmail.com Cc: Pd - list pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Ha, I got a different reply earlier: We decied to avoid the use of Pd and SuperCollider for internal and technical resons and unfortunately we cannot change our policy. So please, if you are interested in the call, please send a more pertinent question. I wonder what software would be good for quickly prototyping a solution to whatever technical problem prevents the use of Pd and Supercollider in a realtime DSP performance... lack of tech support phone numbers? Maybe they think they won't be able to set up the patches for their review process and so opted only to accept patches for performances they think they are confidently able to. Otherwise, the technical issues are between their ears--or in IT support speak, between the chair and keyboard (BTCK). ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Patrice Colet colet.patr...@free.fr wrote: De: alex a...@lurk.org Envoyé: Mercredi 4 Janvier 2012 01:12:14 Ha, I got a different reply earlier: We decied to avoid the use of Pd and SuperCollider for internal and technical resons and unfortunately we cannot change our policy. So please, if you are interested in the call, please send a more pertinent question. So apparently there are reasons but they forgot what they were? They spent all the budget to get softwares, now there isn't enough to give out free beer... ^^ Lousy excuse. Please submit patches for music for suckers, and I will gladly provide all the free beer I'm able to make XD I'm only serious about the beer. My next brew will be an ESB! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
On 01/06/2012 02:11 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: Chris McCormick wrote: On 01/05/2012 01:04 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: Chris McCormick wrote: On 01/04/2012 03:36 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: productivity? that's what we should hate... fuck yes! i define success as not working, and i live like a king. (nofx) hey chris, i'm droiding party, i see it as the major kewl thing in pd these past years sooo great keep the good work ... I'm glad you are enjoying the port of Pd. Thank you very much for CC'ing the list with my private message and outing me as a closet capitalism-hating punk. bah you know it's no secret and an honour for you, but if i missed the point, are they any capitalist-loving people on this list ? hum ok maybe... I must say I hate money, but it’s the lack of it that I hate most. Katherine Mansfield i'd like to think people make things because they like to do it, not because they are pushed and oppressed by market needs that's what we meant no? Yeh, I know what you mean. I guess we all can't help being pushed by the market. I think these are the reasons I write Software Libre: * I like the feeling when my peers tell me what I am doing is cool (so thank you for that, Yves!). * I think something would be fun/cool to do. * I think I might profit in some way from doing something (either directly earning money or later employment). * Traveling and meeting interesting people at conferences is awesome. Well thanks very much to you and everyone else who said nice things. Cheers, Chris. -- http://mccormick.cx/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
this is extremely sad. Given that your post was kind enough :) M On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:51 PM, yvan volochine yvan...@gmail.com wrote: On 01/04/2012 12:01 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: Well, that's weird enough. I actually know those guys through different channels. This is not the first call they send, and, although they work in Max, I think this is the first time I notice such a counterproductive requirement. The weirdest issue imho is why BEK published this call on their blog. Probably they just aggregate calls and news without reviewing the material. Besides, they received negative feedback also on the Sonic Arts Network List. a couple of days ago I added a comment on USO blogpost [1] complaining about this decision (and I tried not to be too angry). as an answer they just disabled comments on this post... no comment... [1] http://usoproject.blogspot.**com/2011/12/call-for-works-** sonic-screens-2012.htmlhttp://usoproject.blogspot.com/2011/12/call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012.html _y -- yvan.voloch...@gmail.com http://yvanvolochine.com -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com | http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
On 01/05/2012 01:04 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: Chris McCormick wrote: On 01/04/2012 03:36 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: productivity? that's what we should hate... fuck yes! i define success as not working, and i live like a king. (nofx) hey chris, i'm droiding party, i see it as the major kewl thing in pd these past years sooo great keep the good work ... Hi Yves, I'm glad you are enjoying the port of Pd. Thank you very much for CC'ing the list with my private message and outing me as a closet capitalism-hating punk. http://mccormick.cx/gfx/cas405-180bpm.gif Cheers, Chris. -- http://mccormick.cx/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Chris McCormick wrote: On 01/05/2012 01:04 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: Chris McCormick wrote: On 01/04/2012 03:36 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: productivity? that's what we should hate... fuck yes! i define success as not working, and i live like a king. (nofx) hey chris, i'm droiding party, i see it as the major kewl thing in pd these past years sooo great keep the good work ... Hi Yves, I'm glad you are enjoying the port of Pd. Thank you very much for CC'ing the list with my private message and outing me as a closet capitalism-hating punk. http://mccormick.cx/gfx/cas405-180bpm.gif Cheers, Chris. bah you know it's no secret and an honour for you, but if i missed the point, are they any capitalist-loving people on this list ? hum ok maybe... i'd like to think people make things because they like to do it, not because they are pushed and oppressed by market needs that's what we meant no? production just means obey, creating is following your own ideas, and maybe you'll get wrong like Steve Jobs ... oh he must be a cat now anyway... salut! sevy ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Well, that's weird enough. I actually know those guys through different channels. This is not the first call they send, and, although they work in Max, I think this is the first time I notice such a counterproductive requirement. The weirdest issue imho is why BEK published this call on their blog. Probably they just aggregate calls and news without reviewing the material. Besides, they received negative feedback also on the Sonic Arts Network List. Obviously. -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com | http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Oh oh oh... I just can't imagine there is an other motivation than their call to be buzzed... (sorry if it doesn't mean anything in english) I'm naive, for sure... but it's a survival question... :-p 01ivier 2012/1/4 Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Well, that's weird enough. I actually know those guys through different channels. This is not the first call they send, and, although they work in Max, I think this is the first time I notice such a counterproductive requirement. The weirdest issue imho is why BEK published this call on their blog. Probably they just aggregate calls and news without reviewing the material. Besides, they received negative feedback also on the Sonic Arts Network List. Obviously. -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com | http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Une petite envie de pixels ? http://grilledelamour.labomedia.org/image/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
yes, it makes sense in English. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCcMxb72TeY On 1/4/12, Olivier B lamouraupeu...@gmail.com wrote: Oh oh oh... I just can't imagine there is an other motivation than their call to be buzzed... (sorry if it doesn't mean anything in english) I'm naive, for sure... but it's a survival question... :-p 01ivier 2012/1/4 Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Well, that's weird enough. I actually know those guys through different channels. This is not the first call they send, and, although they work in Max, I think this is the first time I notice such a counterproductive requirement. The weirdest issue imho is why BEK published this call on their blog. Probably they just aggregate calls and news without reviewing the material. Besides, they received negative feedback also on the Sonic Arts Network List. Obviously. -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Practitioner, Performer, Teacher ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Research: http://res.marcodonnarumma.com | http://www.thesaddj.com | http://www.flxer.net Director: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Une petite envie de pixels ? http://grilledelamour.labomedia.org/image/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-04 à 12:01:00, Marco Donnarumma a écrit : The weirdest issue imho is why BEK published this call on their blog. Probably they just aggregate calls and news without reviewing the material. Note also that BEK doesn't mention any free software when they present their services. In particular, they mention « Max Msp Jitter », but PureData is not worth mentioning. This might be just the usual habit of mentioning only what counts as merchandise, things paid for. http://bek.no/pages/fascilities?locale=no However, you will notice that BEK has a lot more Max-centric workshops (Jamoma, Ftm, etc) than Pd workshops, in the last few years : http://bek.no/projects/workshops_and_seminars?locale=no It _might_ mean something... __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-03 à 21:47:00, Pagano, Patrick a écrit : Here is btw another call about a Pd workshop BEK held back in 2005. http://www.bek.no/projects/35-visiblesoundaudibleimage?locale=en but that was 7 years ago... So, why don't you give more recent examples, to show some kind of continuity ? I know that in seven years, there can be a lot of change of personnel (and thus mentality) in an art centre... I mean, from my own personal experience (5200 km away from BEK). Also, preferably, something with more hours... that's 25 hours, probably minus food time, let's say 20 hours. That's better than most workshops, but there have been significantly longer ones. In a way it would be cool to just send back this e-mail exchanges to the call-makers? - so they see how stupid this call is - and anti-productive. Is it stupid or is it just a generous rebate plan from two software companies ? Just an honest question, no insinuations. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
On 01/04/2012 12:01 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: Well, that's weird enough. I actually know those guys through different channels. This is not the first call they send, and, although they work in Max, I think this is the first time I notice such a counterproductive requirement. The weirdest issue imho is why BEK published this call on their blog. Probably they just aggregate calls and news without reviewing the material. Besides, they received negative feedback also on the Sonic Arts Network List. a couple of days ago I added a comment on USO blogpost [1] complaining about this decision (and I tried not to be too angry). as an answer they just disabled comments on this post... no comment... [1] http://usoproject.blogspot.com/2011/12/call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012.html _y -- yvan.voloch...@gmail.com http://yvanvolochine.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Le 2012-01-04 à 17:51:00, yvan volochine a écrit : a couple of days ago I added a comment on USO blogpost [1] complaining about this decision (and I tried not to be too angry). as an answer they just disabled comments on this post... May you post a copy of your post here ? __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
2012/1/4 ydego...@gmail.com ydego...@gmail.com: xa! happy new year, you know revolution is behind, behind what ? una esquina maybe ou yeah shuvy...its around the corner :P what revolution with open source when people wants the same productivity hey? productivity? that's what we should hate... OC not only with opensource but it helps ...and productwhat? suppose depends on the scale of time ur refering to we'll talk of it again over a beer, compa .. i meant it. yeah sure..better with a beer :) for example tomorrow noon from 18.00 at hangar... useroselektor + live los ganglios (digi-punk) salut and hAbby new gear xà! shuvy xä wrote: in my opinion conciously or unconciously, one of the most counterrevolutionary call4 ive seen in the last times salut x! 2012/1/3 Miller Puckettem...@ucsd.edu: Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
On 01/04/2012 07:22 PM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: Le 2012-01-04 à 17:51:00, yvan volochine a écrit : a couple of days ago I added a comment on USO blogpost [1] complaining about this decision (and I tried not to be too angry). as an answer they just disabled comments on this post... May you post a copy of your post here ? alas no, I didn't save it as I didn't really expect that this post might be rejected.. I was basically just asking if they were serious with those surprising restrictions... _y -- yvan.voloch...@gmail.com http://yvanvolochine.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Chris McCormick wrote: On 01/04/2012 03:36 PM, ydego...@gmail.com wrote: productivity? that's what we should hate... fuck yes! i define success as not working, and i live like a king. (nofx) hey chris, i'm droiding party, i see it as the major kewl thing in pd these past years sooo great keep the good work ... regards, sevy ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
ola, yeah sure..better with a beer :) for example tomorrow noon from 18.00 at hangar... useroselektor + live los ganglios (digi-punk) yeh allright, will check it although digi punk went to that too : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GBVkjr4kRU hum it was better in 1995 i guess : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbYY2uNoEos salut and hAbby new gear handy new gear xà! ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Interesting-- I've never seen something like that where proprietary software that costs money is a requirement for entry. Let's just call it stupidity and move on. -Jonathan From: servando barreiro servandi...@yahoo.es To: pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 1:29 PM Subject: [PD] no pd?? WTF I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
in my opinion conciously or unconciously, one of the most counterrevolutionary call4 ive seen in the last times salut x! 2012/1/3 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
- Original Message - From: Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu To: servando barreiro servandi...@yahoo.es Cc: pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 2:48 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Ha! I forgot that [pd~] works in Max. That would be _really_ funny if a Pd'er snuck into this like that! -Jonathan Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Actually I'd love to collaborate on a submission for this with someone. But we'd have to be crafty because you have to submit your patch to them. -Jonathan - Original Message - From: Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu To: servando barreiro servandi...@yahoo.es Cc: pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 2:48 PM Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
woow I can't believe this!! it is a clear message against piksel (used to be part of BEK) free software, specifically against some of the most creative ones!!! totally absurd, call for boycott!! or use pd~ object in max as miller said :-D cheers julien in my opinion conciously or unconciously, one of the most counterrevolutionary call4 ive seen in the last times salut x! 2012/1/3 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- APO33 space of research and experimentation http://www.apo33.org i...@apo33.org ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Had to visit the link to see what it was all about... it´s easy to just have some fast opinion on things... and the first impression I had was that this was something BEK (in Norway) arranges, but it´s a call made on their blog from Milan/Rome for something happening in Italy. http://usoproject.blogspot.com/ . But I agree totally that it´s absurd about that call on the Max / Pd choice. And thoughtless of BEK to post it like that. Here is btw another call about a Pd workshop BEK held back in 2005. http://www.bek.no/projects/35-visiblesoundaudibleimage?locale=en but that was 7 years ago... But might be something inter-institutional too between BEK and Pixsel - - who knows? In a way it would be cool to just send back this e-mail exchanges to the call-makers? - so they see how stupid this call is - and anti-productive. All the best, Björn Eriksson On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:15 PM, APO33 i...@apo33.org wrote: woow I can't believe this!! it is a clear message against piksel (used to be part of BEK) free software, specifically against some of the most creative ones!!! totally absurd, call for boycott!! or use pd~ object in max as miller said :-D cheers julien in my opinion conciously or unconciously, one of the most counterrevolutionary call4 ive seen in the last times salut x! 2012/1/3 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- APO33 space of research and experimentation http://www.apo33.org i...@apo33.org ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Sounds like someone got a new kyma system... -Original Message- From: pd-list-boun...@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-boun...@iem.at] On Behalf Of Björn Eriksson Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 4:46 PM To: Pd - list Subject: Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF Had to visit the link to see what it was all about... it´s easy to just have some fast opinion on things... and the first impression I had was that this was something BEK (in Norway) arranges, but it´s a call made on their blog from Milan/Rome for something happening in Italy. http://usoproject.blogspot.com/ . But I agree totally that it´s absurd about that call on the Max / Pd choice. And thoughtless of BEK to post it like that. Here is btw another call about a Pd workshop BEK held back in 2005. http://www.bek.no/projects/35-visiblesoundaudibleimage?locale=en but that was 7 years ago... But might be something inter-institutional too between BEK and Pixsel - - who knows? In a way it would be cool to just send back this e-mail exchanges to the call-makers? - so they see how stupid this call is - and anti-productive. All the best, Björn Eriksson On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:15 PM, APO33 i...@apo33.org wrote: woow I can't believe this!! it is a clear message against piksel (used to be part of BEK) free software, specifically against some of the most creative ones!!! totally absurd, call for boycott!! or use pd~ object in max as miller said :-D cheers julien in my opinion conciously or unconciously, one of the most counterrevolutionary call4 ive seen in the last times salut x! 2012/1/3 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?local e=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- APO33 space of research and experimentation http://www.apo33.org i...@apo33.org ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Hey Björn, you right on that one! mea culpa :-) cheers Julien call made on their blog from Milan/Rome for something happening in Italy. http://usoproject.blogspot.com/ . All the best, Björn Eriksson On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:15 PM, APO33 i...@apo33.org wrote: woow I can't believe this!! it is a clear message against piksel (used to be part of BEK) free software, specifically against some of the most creative ones!!! totally absurd, call for boycott!! or use pd~ object in max as miller said :-D cheers julien in my opinion conciously or unconciously, one of the most counterrevolutionary call4 ive seen in the last times salut x! 2012/1/3 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- APO33 space of research and experimentation http://www.apo33.org i...@apo33.org ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- APO33 space of research and experimentation http://www.apo33.org i...@apo33.org ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
I thought it would be easiest to ask the guys behind the submission address (submissi...@synesthesiarecordings.com). Not that i got a real answer. If you have an idea how to follow up, I'm interested. Andras -- Forwarded message -- From: Federico Placidi federico.plac...@gmail.com Date: 2012/1/3 Subject: Re: Sonic Screens - why no pd/sc? To: András Murányi muran...@gmail.com Many thanks for your interest in our call, About PD and SC there is no specific reason, It is just an internal policy. Many thanks, Federico Placidi, Matteo Milani 2012/1/3 András Murányi muran...@gmail.com Hello, I'd like to know why PureData and SuperCollider based projects are excluded from the contest. Thanks, ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
Ha, I got a different reply earlier: We decied to avoid the use of Pd and SuperCollider for internal and technical resons and unfortunately we cannot change our policy. So please, if you are interested in the call, please send a more pertinent question. So apparently there are reasons but they forgot what they were? 2012/1/3 András Murányi muran...@gmail.com: I thought it would be easiest to ask the guys behind the submission address (submissi...@synesthesiarecordings.com). Not that i got a real answer. If you have an idea how to follow up, I'm interested. Andras -- Forwarded message -- From: Federico Placidi federico.plac...@gmail.com Date: 2012/1/3 Subject: Re: Sonic Screens - why no pd/sc? To: András Murányi muran...@gmail.com Many thanks for your interest in our call, About PD and SC there is no specific reason, It is just an internal policy. Many thanks, Federico Placidi, Matteo Milani 2012/1/3 András Murányi muran...@gmail.com Hello, I'd like to know why PureData and SuperCollider based projects are excluded from the contest. Thanks, ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- http://yaxu.org/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
just laughing of when j. defended bek ... oh how we laughed at awkwardness and inability... those who followed the thread will get it and happy new gear, you technomological people, me i don't give a shit sevy alex wrote: Ha, I got a different reply earlier: We decied to avoid the use of Pd and SuperCollider for internal and technical resons and unfortunately we cannot change our policy. So please, if you are interested in the call, please send a more pertinent question. So apparently there are reasons but they forgot what they were? 2012/1/3 András Murányimuran...@gmail.com: I thought it would be easiest to ask the guys behind the submission address (submissi...@synesthesiarecordings.com). Not that i got a real answer. If you have an idea how to follow up, I'm interested. Andras -- Forwarded message -- From: Federico Placidifederico.plac...@gmail.com Date: 2012/1/3 Subject: Re: Sonic Screens - why no pd/sc? To: András Murányimuran...@gmail.com Many thanks for your interest in our call, About PD and SC there is no specific reason, It is just an internal policy. Many thanks, Federico Placidi, Matteo Milani 2012/1/3 András Murányimuran...@gmail.com Hello, I'd like to know why PureData and SuperCollider based projects are excluded from the contest. Thanks, ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] no pd?? WTF ????
xa! happy new year, you know revolution is behind, behind what ? una esquina maybe what revolution with open source when people wants the same productivity hey? productivity? that's what we should hate... we'll talk of it again over a beer, compa .. i meant it. shuvy xä wrote: in my opinion conciously or unconciously, one of the most counterrevolutionary call4 ive seen in the last times salut x! 2012/1/3 Miller Puckettem...@ucsd.edu: Ugly. I'd suggest using Max and the pd~ object :) Miller On Tue, Jan 03, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +, servando barreiro wrote: I just readed this : The electronic processing must be developed and implemented using Max/MSP or Kyma. (we will not accept patches developed in Pure Data or SuperCollider). here: http://www.bek.no/posts/243-call-for-works-sonic-screens-2012?locale=en bad thing... S ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
