Re: Re: RE: Dry firing (FORGET sillycon film!!)
David Brooks wrote: Pat(sorry to Monty Phython folk)Your lucky to have a shutter:) Thats right. Us real men stop down to f/90 and use our hat over the lens. Cheers, - Dave http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/ (out of date)
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
I was referring to robocameras too - MZ-30, MZ-S. In order to work out how the AF360 worked, I did a lot of 'dry-firing' of the empty camera. Jostein is most adamant his Z1 will... This is quite curious, it seems there is a real mix so I am now convinced that this thing could never be a universal solution. This kinda backs up the vapourware theory, doesn't it? -Original Message- From: mike wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 20 September 2002 08:49 To: Rob Brigham Subject: RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film) Hi Rob, I was in a bit of a hurry yesterday, so I was not my usual precise self 8-) I was referring generally to robocameras, not manual models. I understand that these need only to have the shutter cocked to work with a digital insert. However, my Z1-p will not fire without film. No film = deadsville. It will therefore need something to simulate the presence and movement of film before it will work with the insert. Maybe it's an exception but there might be a few upset customers mike
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
Dave Mann wrote: My Z-1p will dry-fire quite happily as well. I can't quite remember if it will also fire with the back open. I measured its shutter speeds once but I don't remember if I had to do anything special to make it work. The 6x7 won't dry-fire unless I use the frame-counter trick. But thats not a robocamera :) What's the frame-counter trick? My 67 is getting sticky with use. The mirror locks up and the shutter doesn't close. It's okay again after I leave it for a week or so. Weird. I want to reproduce the trick without wasting film. tia wendy beard ottawa, canada http://www.beard-redfern.com
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Rob Brigham wrote: I was referring to robocameras too - MZ-30, MZ-S. In order to work out how the AF360 worked, I did a lot of 'dry-firing' of the empty camera. My ZX-50 and ZX-5n will fire without film on the takeup spool, but only if there is no cannister in its section, either. If there's a film cannister loaded and a mis-loaded roll of film (ie, it didn't take on teh spool), it flashes E. If its a rewound cannister, it'll flash the full canister icon. Completely empty? Fires, no problem. I use this to irritate my girlfriend to know end by pointing a cmaera at her and holding the shutter down. She's grown used to the fact I don't have film, which tends to irk her more when she finds out I did in fact have film in it. Bwahaha! Anyways, there's my input, just in case anyone was still paying attention.. maybe you already had it, I admit I stopped reading this thread awhile ago, because teh whole Silicon Film thing is a neat concept in a doomed package. -- http://www.infotainment.org The destructive character is cheerful. - Walter Benjamin
Re[2]: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
iirc, with the back open, you rotate the film counter (push on it's top with your finger, and rotate) until it reaches zero. then you close the back (keeping the counter at zero). they you can dry-fire. mishka -Original Message- From: wendy beard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:27:11 -0600 Subject: RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film) Dave Mann wrote: My Z-1p will dry-fire quite happily as well. I can't quite remember if it will also fire with the back open. I measured its shutter speeds once but I don't remember if I had to do anything special to make it work. The 6x7 won't dry-fire unless I use the frame-counter trick. But thats not a robocamera :) What's the frame-counter trick? My 67 is getting sticky with use. The mirror locks up and the shutter doesn't close. It's okay again after I leave it for a week or so. Weird. I want to reproduce the trick without wasting film. tia wendy beard ottawa, canada http://www.beard-redfern.com
RE: Dry firing (FORGET sillycon film!!)
OK this whole issue of dry-firing or not has got me interested. I know I am a sad git! So far we have the following views: P30T will dry fire regardless of film presence or misfeeds MZ-M will dry fire regardless of film presence or misfeeds MZ-50 will only dry-fire with an empty film chamber, misfeeds or misloads lock the camera MZ-30 ditto MZ-5N ditto MZ-S ditto Z1 (p?) from Jostein - it will only fire with an empty film chamber Z1P from Mike - it wont fire without film Dave Mann - Oh yes it will as long as there is an empty film chamber! 67 will dry fire with the 'frame counter trick' Any others? The Z1/Z1P is the really interesting one!!! I also don't understand why the MZ-M would work differently to the MZ-5N??
Re: Re[2]: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
I'm not 100% on this Wendy,but is'nt that an indication of a dead or diying battery:? Dave Begin Original Message The 6x7 won't dry-fire unless I use the frame-counter trick. But thats not a robocamera :) What's the frame-counter trick? My 67 is getting sticky with use. The mirror locks up and the shutter doesn't close. It's okay again after I leave it for a week or so. Weird. I want to reproduce the trick without wasting film. tia wendy beard ottawa, canada http://www.beard-redfern.com End Original Message Pentax User Stouffville Ontario Canada http://home.ca.inter.net/brooksdj/ http://brooks1952.tripod.com/myhorses Sign up today for your Free E-mail at: http://www.canoe.ca/CanoeMail
Re: RE: Dry firing (FORGET sillycon film!!)
Rob. My SF-1 will dry fire with out film,however it will not fire with the back open. Dave Begin Original Message From: Rob Brigham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:09:46 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Dry firing (FORGET sillycon film!!) OK this whole issue of dry-firing or not has got me interested. I know I am a sad git! So far we have the following views: P30T will dry fire regardless of film presence or misfeeds MZ-M will dry fire regardless of film presence or misfeeds MZ-50 will only dry-fire with an empty film chamber, misfeeds or misloads lock the camera MZ-30 ditto MZ-5N ditto MZ-S ditto Z1 (p?) from Jostein - it will only fire with an empty film chamber Z1P from Mike - it wont fire without film Dave Mann - Oh yes it will as long as there is an empty film chamber! 67 will dry fire with the 'frame counter trick' Any others? The Z1/Z1P is the really interesting one!!! I also don't understand why the MZ-M would work differently to the MZ-5N?? End Original Message Pentax User Stouffville Ontario Canada http://home.ca.inter.net/brooksdj/ http://brooks1952.tripod.com/myhorses Sign up today for your Free E-mail at: http://www.canoe.ca/CanoeMail
Re: RE: Dry firing (FORGET sillycon film!!)
The MZ-M has the same film system as the other mz cameras, normally it won't fire if it sees a miss feed. THe PZ-20 also will not fire with the back open or with a missfeed. --- David Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob. My SF-1 will dry fire with out film,however it will not fire with the back open. Dave Begin Original Message From: Rob Brigham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:09:46 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Dry firing (FORGET sillycon film!!) OK this whole issue of dry-firing or not has got me interested. I know I am a sad git! So far we have the following views: P30T will dry fire regardless of film presence or misfeeds MZ-M will dry fire regardless of film presence or misfeeds MZ-50 will only dry-fire with an empty film chamber, misfeeds or misloads lock the camera MZ-30 ditto MZ-5N ditto MZ-S ditto Z1 (p?) from Jostein - it will only fire with an empty film chamber Z1P from Mike - it wont fire without film Dave Mann - Oh yes it will as long as there is an empty film chamber! 67 will dry fire with the 'frame counter trick' Any others? The Z1/Z1P is the really interesting one!!! I also don't understand why the MZ-M would work differently to the MZ-5N?? End Original Message Pentax User Stouffville Ontario Canada http://home.ca.inter.net/brooksdj/ http://brooks1952.tripod.com/myhorses Sign up today for your Free E-mail at: http://www.canoe.ca/CanoeMail __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
RE: Dry firing (FORGET sillycon film!!)
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Rob Brigham wrote: MZ-M will dry fire regardless of film presence or misfeeds I also don't understand why the MZ-M would work differently to the MZ-5N?? Does the -M have anything different about DX settings that the rest of the MZ series does not? -- http://www.infotainment.org The destructive character is cheerful. - Walter Benjamin
Re: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
- Original Message - From: wendy beard Subject: RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film) What's the frame-counter trick? Open the back. Use the knurled wheel on the frame counter to advance the counter to or past frame one. Hold it there, and close the back. The camera will now operate the film advance and shutter. The cameras also came with a key that could be inserted into the camera to goof it into thinking the door was closed. William Robb This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re[2]: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
From: David Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not 100% on this Wendy,but is'nt that an indication of a dead or diying battery:? Dave That was my first thought. I put in a new one and it didn't make any difference. The battery check light on top was lighting up just fine too (it was before I changed the battery as well). Gave it a rest for a couple of weeks and it's working again. wendy beard ottawa, canada http://www.beard-redfern.com
Re: Re[2]: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
Then it works like me then:) Dave Begin Original Message From: wendy beard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:50:11 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re[2]: Dry firing (was sillycon film) Gave it a rest for a couple of weeks and it's working again. wendy beard ottawa, canada http://www.beard-redfern.com End Original Message Pentax User Stouffville Ontario Canada http://home.ca.inter.net/brooksdj/ http://brooks1952.tripod.com/myhorses Sign up today for your Free E-mail at: http://www.canoe.ca/CanoeMail
Dry firing (was sillycon film)
Hi, Rob wrote: The big question is whethter all cameras are consistent in this respect? I am guessing many will see the existence of a film due to a pressure sensor in the film chamber as you describe, but some may be as Mike says where the film is detected by movement of a toothed wheel or IR detection of film movement over the film plate when the take up spool is advanced. The other thing is do all cameras using a sensor in the film chamber have the sensor in the same place? It makes sense to use the DX pins as you describe, but that does not mean all cameras do it the sensible way!! There may be a sensor in the cassette area of the body but it will not be able to tell the camera that the film is advancing... All the AF cameras I have seen automatically try to advance film when the back is closed, even if there is no cassette loaded. It seems to me that only DX sensors are in the cassette area. Therefore, silicon film inserts for Pentax will need some mechanical parts to simulate film presence. These will be power consuming and prone to wear and tear. They will also need to fit into a space designed for the film - a very thin place, indeed. It's looking bad, to me. mike
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
No, you are missing the point, what they need to do is convince the camera that there is no film so that it 'dry-fires' and doesn't expect film advance to occur. That should be far simpler than doing what I initially thought and what you are now thinking - i.e. trying to convince it the film it thinks it has loaded has advanced successully. -Original Message- From: mike wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 19 September 2002 14:39 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Dry firing (was sillycon film) Hi, Rob wrote: The big question is whethter all cameras are consistent in this respect? I am guessing many will see the existence of a film due to a pressure sensor in the film chamber as you describe, but some may be as Mike says where the film is detected by movement of a toothed wheel or IR detection of film movement over the film plate when the take up spool is advanced. The other thing is do all cameras using a sensor in the film chamber have the sensor in the same place? It makes sense to use the DX pins as you describe, but that does not mean all cameras do it the sensible way!! There may be a sensor in the cassette area of the body but it will not be able to tell the camera that the film is advancing... All the AF cameras I have seen automatically try to advance film when the back is closed, even if there is no cassette loaded. It seems to me that only DX sensors are in the cassette area. Therefore, silicon film inserts for Pentax will need some mechanical parts to simulate film presence. These will be power consuming and prone to wear and tear. They will also need to fit into a space designed for the film - a very thin place, indeed. It's looking bad, to me. mike
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
BTW, I love the change to the title of this thread!! -Original Message- From: Rob Brigham Sent: 19 September 2002 14:43 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film) No, you are missing the point, what they need to do is convince the camera that there is no film so that it 'dry-fires' and doesn't expect film advance to occur. That should be far simpler than doing what I initially thought and what you are now thinking - i.e. trying to convince it the film it thinks it has loaded has advanced successully. -Original Message- From: mike wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 19 September 2002 14:39 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Dry firing (was sillycon film) Hi, Rob wrote: The big question is whethter all cameras are consistent in this respect? I am guessing many will see the existence of a film due to a pressure sensor in the film chamber as you describe, but some may be as Mike says where the film is detected by movement of a toothed wheel or IR detection of film movement over the film plate when the take up spool is advanced. The other thing is do all cameras using a sensor in the film chamber have the sensor in the same place? It makes sense to use the DX pins as you describe, but that does not mean all cameras do it the sensible way!! There may be a sensor in the cassette area of the body but it will not be able to tell the camera that the film is advancing... All the AF cameras I have seen automatically try to advance film when the back is closed, even if there is no cassette loaded. It seems to me that only DX sensors are in the cassette area. Therefore, silicon film inserts for Pentax will need some mechanical parts to simulate film presence. These will be power consuming and prone to wear and tear. They will also need to fit into a space designed for the film - a very thin place, indeed. It's looking bad, to me. mike
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
Hi Rob, The only way I can see that they can convince a film camera that it can fire is to convince it that there _is_ film there. With all the Pentax models I've seen, that means using a mechanical method to fool it into thinking that. With others that use LEDs, the solution is much simpler. m
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
NO NO NO. Your camera fires even if there is no film in it. This avoids the great problems of trying to convince it the film has wound successfully. Have you never tested a camera in a shop without film in? The shutter still fires. -Original Message- From: mike wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 19 September 2002 16:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film) Hi Rob, The only way I can see that they can convince a film camera that it can fire is to convince it that there _is_ film there. With all the Pentax models I've seen, that means using a mechanical method to fool it into thinking that. With others that use LEDs, the solution is much simpler. m
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
Some of the older models don't, (no Pentax cameras that I am aware of), the manufactures supplied a cardboard insert that put a false leader with a small gap where the sprocket would sit to fool the camera into thinking it was loaded. At 04:20 PM 9/19/2002 +0100, you wrote: NO NO NO. Your camera fires even if there is no film in it. This avoids the great problems of trying to convince it the film has wound successfully. Have you never tested a camera in a shop without film in? The shutter still fires. -Original Message- From: mike wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 19 September 2002 16:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film) Hi Rob, The only way I can see that they can convince a film camera that it can fire is to convince it that there _is_ film there. With all the Pentax models I've seen, that means using a mechanical method to fool it into thinking that. With others that use LEDs, the solution is much simpler. m
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] NO NO NO. Your camera fires even if there is no film in it. This avoids the great problems of trying to convince it the film has wound successfully. Have you never tested a camera in a shop without film in? The shutter still fires. at what speed? fixed or non-fixed? Herb
RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film)
At the indicated speed on the camera. You can use this on many older cameras to see the shutter curtains functioning. -Original Message- From: Herb Chong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 19 September 2002 17:54 To: INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Dry firing (was sillycon film) Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] NO NO NO. Your camera fires even if there is no film in it. This avoids the great problems of trying to convince it the film has wound successfully. Have you never tested a camera in a shop without film in? The shutter still fires. at what speed? fixed or non-fixed? Herb
