Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[Zos Xavius]

Wrong. :)

http://www.jtwastronomy.com/tutorials/debayer.html

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 10:29 AM, P. J. Alling
 wrote:
> For demosaicing(sp???) to work, the firmware has to take into account the
> color filters over each photosite.  If you could remover the Bayer filter,
> (which I think is impossible, based on my knowledge of how it's applied),
> the camera would need completely rewritten firmware, possibly even new
> hardware in the image processing engine.  The image with standard firmware
> will be subtly off, now that didn't stop photographs in the past recording
> some version of reality film ortho film, but the color and luminance values
> will be off, and you won't get the advantage of the higher resolution since
> the camera will still process the image to try to create a rgb image.
>
>
>
> On 1/9/2017 4:06 PM, Gonz wrote:
>>
>> I would be just as interesting if not more interesting to me to have
>> the Bayer filter removed (is that even possible?).  That would make
>> for a cool B camera.  don't know if the software would support this
>> kind of image though (in raw).
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>>>
>>> I forgot to mention that the 28-105 is arguably the sharpest kit lens
>>> I've
>>> ever used.  I picked it up because I couldn't afford the 24-70, already
>>> had
>>> a tammy 28-75, and didn't have a weather proof standard range zoom.
>>>
>>> In decent light, I'm quite happy to leave it on my camera.  I don't know
>>> how
>>> it compares, other than speed and cost with the 24-70.
>>>
>>> Also, when I got my K-1 I had a K-3 and a K-3II which made a nice pair
>>> for
>>> when I wanted to use two bodies.  I held off on selling one, but these
>>> days
>>> only use one of them when I want to mount the 18-250 to have a small wide
>>> range camera to carry around, I should do something with the K-3.  One
>>> option, and probably the smart one, would be to sell it. Another option
>>> would be to have the IR block filter removed.
>>>
>>> This is a topic that comes up every now and then, and the list of shops
>>> doing it seems to change on a year by year basis.  Has anyone had the
>>> conversion done lately?  Who did it, are you happy with their work and
>>> what
>>> did it cost?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Larry Colen  l...@red4est.com (postbox on min4est) http://red4est.com/lrc
>>>
>>>
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>>> follow the directions.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[P. J. Alling]

For demosaicing(sp???) to work, the firmware has to take into account 
the color filters over each photosite.  If you could remover the Bayer 
filter, (which I think is impossible, based on my knowledge of how it's 
applied), the camera would need completely rewritten firmware, possibly 
even new hardware in the image processing engine.  The image with 
standard firmware will be subtly off, now that didn't stop photographs 
in the past recording some version of reality film ortho film, but the 
color and luminance values will be off, and you won't get the advantage 
of the higher resolution since the camera will still process the image 
to try to create a rgb image.



On 1/9/2017 4:06 PM, Gonz wrote:

I would be just as interesting if not more interesting to me to have
the Bayer filter removed (is that even possible?).  That would make
for a cool B camera.  don't know if the software would support this
kind of image though (in raw).


On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

I forgot to mention that the 28-105 is arguably the sharpest kit lens I've
ever used.  I picked it up because I couldn't afford the 24-70, already had
a tammy 28-75, and didn't have a weather proof standard range zoom.

In decent light, I'm quite happy to leave it on my camera.  I don't know how
it compares, other than speed and cost with the 24-70.

Also, when I got my K-1 I had a K-3 and a K-3II which made a nice pair for
when I wanted to use two bodies.  I held off on selling one, but these days
only use one of them when I want to mount the 18-250 to have a small wide
range camera to carry around, I should do something with the K-3.  One
option, and probably the smart one, would be to sell it. Another option
would be to have the IR block filter removed.

This is a topic that comes up every now and then, and the list of shops
doing it seems to change on a year by year basis.  Has anyone had the
conversion done lately?  Who did it, are you happy with their work and what
did it cost?



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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[Zos Xavius]

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 4:20 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>
>
> Gonz wrote:
>>
>> I would be just as interesting if not more interesting to me to have
>> the Bayer filter removed (is that even possible?).  That would make
>> for a cool B camera.  don't know if the software would support this
>> kind of image though (in raw).
>
>
> My understanding is that the Bayer filter is actually part of the sensor,
> and can't be removed.  It would gain you about 5dB in sensitivity, at the
> loss of the ability to apply virtual color filters in post processing.

You can scrape it off or use chemicals to remove it. People offer
modified cameras with this done. You lose sensitivity due to the loss
of microlenses but gain sensitivity due to the loss of the CFA. This
seems to offset for the most part.

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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Bill]

On 1/9/2017 9:53 AM, Collin B wrote:

Zos said ...

The K-3 II has pixel shift, better SR (1 stop better), and the astro
tracer built in. It also lacks a pop up flash since that is where they
put the GPS unit. Otherwise they are 100% the same really. If you
didn't need pixel shift or GPS I would just pass myself.


Is pixel shift usable outside of studio shooting?




Kind of sort of. It's usable in the same conditions you would have been 
using 4x5 in.


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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Bill]

On 1/9/2017 9:09 AM, Collin B wrote:

What's the advantages of a K3II over a K3?




Pixel shift.
And that is a biggie if you are into macro.

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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[Larry Colen]

David J Brooks wrote:

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 3:58 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

I forgot to mention that the 28-105 is arguably the sharpest kit lens I've
ever used.  I picked it up because I couldn't afford the 24-70, already had
a tammy 28-75, and didn't have a weather proof standard range zoom.

which verdsion, i have the older FA 28-105. I found it poor on my K10d
but have yet to use it on my K-5, Right now its a body covwer on my
PZ-1


The new one, that was $500 with the K-1.  Weather resistant has become 
very important to me these days.



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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[David J Brooks]

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 3:58 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> I forgot to mention that the 28-105 is arguably the sharpest kit lens I've
> ever used.  I picked it up because I couldn't afford the 24-70, already had
> a tammy 28-75, and didn't have a weather proof standard range zoom.
which verdsion, i have the older FA 28-105. I found it poor on my K10d
but have yet to use it on my K-5, Right now its a body covwer on my
PZ-1

Dave
>
>
>
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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[Gonz]

haha

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>
>
> Gonz wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, you would be stuck using physical colored filters instead of
>> tweaking the B virtually in LR/PS.  Like back in the bad ole days of
>> B film.  You only get that chance to get it right with the physical
>> filters, lots of chances with the full Bayer filtered image.
>>
>> That's a big negative.
>
>
> So negatives don't have Bayer filters, and no Bayer filter is a big
> negative?
>
>
>
>
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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[Larry Colen]

Gonz wrote:

Yeah, you would be stuck using physical colored filters instead of
tweaking the B virtually in LR/PS.  Like back in the bad ole days of
B film.  You only get that chance to get it right with the physical
filters, lots of chances with the full Bayer filtered image.

That's a big negative.


So negatives don't have Bayer filters, and no Bayer filter is a big 
negative?




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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[Gonz]

Yeah, you would be stuck using physical colored filters instead of
tweaking the B virtually in LR/PS.  Like back in the bad ole days of
B film.  You only get that chance to get it right with the physical
filters, lots of chances with the full Bayer filtered image.

That's a big negative.


On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>
>
> Gonz wrote:
>>
>> I would be just as interesting if not more interesting to me to have
>> the Bayer filter removed (is that even possible?).  That would make
>> for a cool B camera.  don't know if the software would support this
>> kind of image though (in raw).
>
>
> My understanding is that the Bayer filter is actually part of the sensor,
> and can't be removed.  It would gain you about 5dB in sensitivity, at the
> loss of the ability to apply virtual color filters in post processing.
>
> I would be interested in seeing real-world comparisons between the Leica
> monochrome only body, and the color equivalent.  With modern sensors, my
> suspicion is that there are very few situations where removing the Bayer
> filter would give a noticeable improvement, and a lot of times when not
> being able to tweak the contribution from the different channels in post
> would be a big detriment.
>
> In short, by the time the dust settled, you would get better results for
> less overall cost, just selling the K-3 buying an off the shelf K-1 and
> converting to B in Post than you would converting the K-3. If you already
> have the K-1, I can't think of any advantage you would have by removing the
> Bayer on a K-3 for B
>
>
> --
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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[Larry Colen]

Gonz wrote:

I would be just as interesting if not more interesting to me to have
the Bayer filter removed (is that even possible?).  That would make
for a cool B camera.  don't know if the software would support this
kind of image though (in raw).


My understanding is that the Bayer filter is actually part of the 
sensor, and can't be removed.  It would gain you about 5dB in 
sensitivity, at the loss of the ability to apply virtual color filters 
in post processing.


I would be interested in seeing real-world comparisons between the Leica 
monochrome only body, and the color equivalent.  With modern sensors, my 
suspicion is that there are very few situations where removing the Bayer 
filter would give a noticeable improvement, and a lot of times when not 
being able to tweak the contribution from the different channels in post 
would be a big detriment.


In short, by the time the dust settled, you would get better results for 
less overall cost, just selling the K-3 buying an off the shelf K-1 and 
converting to B in Post than you would converting the K-3. If you 
already have the K-1, I can't think of any advantage you would have by 
removing the Bayer on a K-3 for B


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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[Gonz]

I would be just as interesting if not more interesting to me to have
the Bayer filter removed (is that even possible?).  That would make
for a cool B camera.  don't know if the software would support this
kind of image though (in raw).


On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> I forgot to mention that the 28-105 is arguably the sharpest kit lens I've
> ever used.  I picked it up because I couldn't afford the 24-70, already had
> a tammy 28-75, and didn't have a weather proof standard range zoom.
>
> In decent light, I'm quite happy to leave it on my camera.  I don't know how
> it compares, other than speed and cost with the 24-70.
>
> Also, when I got my K-1 I had a K-3 and a K-3II which made a nice pair for
> when I wanted to use two bodies.  I held off on selling one, but these days
> only use one of them when I want to mount the 18-250 to have a small wide
> range camera to carry around, I should do something with the K-3.  One
> option, and probably the smart one, would be to sell it. Another option
> would be to have the IR block filter removed.
>
> This is a topic that comes up every now and then, and the list of shops
> doing it seems to change on a year by year basis.  Has anyone had the
> conversion done lately?  Who did it, are you happy with their work and what
> did it cost?
>
>
>
> --
> Larry Colen  l...@red4est.com (postbox on min4est) http://red4est.com/lrc
>
>
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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ... lenses and IR conversion question

[Larry Colen]

I forgot to mention that the 28-105 is arguably the sharpest kit lens 
I've ever used.  I picked it up because I couldn't afford the 24-70, 
already had a tammy 28-75, and didn't have a weather proof standard 
range zoom.


In decent light, I'm quite happy to leave it on my camera.  I don't know 
how it compares, other than speed and cost with the 24-70.


Also, when I got my K-1 I had a K-3 and a K-3II which made a nice pair 
for when I wanted to use two bodies.  I held off on selling one, but 
these days only use one of them when I want to mount the 18-250 to have 
a small wide range camera to carry around, I should do something with 
the K-3.  One option, and probably the smart one, would be to sell it. 
Another option would be to have the IR block filter removed.


This is a topic that comes up every now and then, and the list of shops 
doing it seems to change on a year by year basis.  Has anyone had the 
conversion done lately?  Who did it, are you happy with their work and 
what did it cost?




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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Larry Colen]

TLDR; summary at end

My plan was to go from the K-5 ii to the K-1, but due to a weird 
confluence of events, I ended up with both a K-3 and a K-3ii.


The K-3, K-3 II and the K-1 each have advantages.

In reasonable light, if you don't shoot with wide lenses, the image 
quality differences are subtle, the vast majority of the time you won't 
notice.


Autofocus seems to get a bit better with each successive generation.  My 
big gripe with the K-1 autofocus is that I can't focus on objects out of 
the center of the frame, and I often want to frame my subject in one 
corner or another, or just not leave lots of empty space above someone 
when shooting a portrait.


If you shoot sports, or primarily shoot with long lenses, one of the K-3 
bodies might actually work better for you. In some ways, even at APS 
crop, the K-1 does better than the K-3, but it's still a slower frame 
rate.  When shooting action, the frame rate of the K-3 bodies is 
amazing, at least by Pentax standards.


Some of the disadvantages of the smaller sensor would be mitigated by 
being able to use some of the APS only lenses like the sigma 18-35 1.8. 
It would be interesting to compare the K-3 with 18-35/1.8 with the K-1 
and the 24-70 2.8.


There are a lot of advantages to having a pop-up flash, mostly being 
able to ad a bit of fill without having to lug around a a speedlight. 
The big advantage of the internal GPS, to me, is if you are using more 
than one body, the internal clocks are synched to each other, which 
makes it easier to put shots in chronological order.


Despite the DxO numbers, in real world the K-3 actually performs as well 
in low light as the K-5, you might get more noise per pixel, but you've 
got more pixels to average over.


The K-1 is noticeably bigger, has noticeably shorter battery life, takes 
noticeably larger raw files, and fills the buffer way too quickly if you 
are shooting action in situations where you have to take photos when 
something interesting *might* happen because if you wait to see if 
something interesting did happen, it already happened and you missed it. 
Of course, if you don't mind photos of something interesting that just 
happened rather than something interesting about to happen, or at the 
instant of it happening, this is less of a problem.


In general, autofocus on the K-1 is much better, largely because with 
more focus points each with a smaller area it's much less likely to 
focus on the wrong thing (the microphone instead of the singer. I have 
got an amazing collection of beautiful photos of microphones with 
singers in the background).


Low light and high ISO performance of the K-1 is quite a bit better than 
previous generations.


Live view on the K-1 is a huge step up from the K-3, especially with the 
electronic shutter firmware upgrade. Combine that with the flip out 
screen and it is very handy in a lot of situations.


Perhaps the biggest advantage of the K-1 is shifting the angle of view 
of a lot of the glass back up by a factor of 1.5 times.  My 50/1.4 was 
always an awkward length on APS, but it works well on full frame, and it 
is really nice to have an f/1.4 standard.  Granted I could have gotten a 
Sigma 35/1.4, but haven't yet.  The Samyang 24/1.4 on the K-1 is awesome 
for astro landscapes. The 15-30/2.8 is a beast to carry around, but it's 
a great fast wide lens.


Some of the APS lenses work surprisingly well at FF. The DA 35 macro 
vignettes a bit when used at "normal" distances, but not much at macro, 
in any case it is easily corrected, either in lightroom or by cropping. 
 The DA 55/1.4 vignettes a bit, I'd go with the FA 50/1.4 unless you're 
in the rain. The DA55-300 works surprisingly well at the wide and long 
ends, but it does weird cropping between about 100-200mm.


There are aspects of the new UI I dislike, and others I prefer.

After releasing a body with more performance, more features and more to 
learn than ever before, they cheaped out on the user manual, it is half 
the size of the K-5, glosses over all of the details of the features and 
would barely be sufficient as a manual on a point and shoot aimed at 
someone who had never used a camera before.


In summary:
Other than potentially used prices, not a lot of advantage of the K-5 
family.


If pop-up flash is critical go for the K-3.

If shutter rate, size, effective buffer size, or cost is critical, get a 
used K-3 II.


In pretty much every other regard, the K-1 will significantly out 
perform every other k-mount Pentax DSLR, even when shooting in crop mode.


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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Bruce Walker]

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Stanley Halpin
 wrote:
> [...] if/when I decide to revisit APS-C, I would absolutely definitely choose 
> K-3 over K-3ii.
>
> [...] the K-3ii ditches the pop-up flash
> [...] I have yet to see a reliable add-on I can use to trigger external 
> Pentax flashes.

Inexpensive radio triggers, Stan.

They solve all the annoying problems with the weak line-of-sight
optical triggering system, except HSS (though some radio triggers
claim to handle even that). I remain unconvinced about the real world
usefulness of HSS because it saps flash power like crazy. I just slap
on an ND filter.

I wish they'd spend development budget on focal plane shutters and
faster flash sync speeds instead.

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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Zos Xavius]

Sure, but with some caveats. If you have zero movement in your scene,
then you are golden. If tree branches sway in the wind, water flows,
grasses move, people, etc, there will be some issues. The K-1 has some
software that helps with this when it processes PS files, but the k-3
never was upgraded to reflect that. If you are photoshop savvy you can
easily process the file in silkypix and then extract a single frame
out of the same DNG (it saves each shot individually) and merge the
two in photoshop. You can use the single frame grab to fill in the
areas where movement caused error though you will of course lose the
PS effect in that area. I would have no issues using pixelshift that
way. Its not perfect on the k-1 either at times with moving scenes so
you would likely have to do the same thing with that camera as well
though you would have less to fix I think. Does that make sense?

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Collin B  wrote:
> Zos said ...
>>The K-3 II has pixel shift, better SR (1 stop better), and the astro
>>tracer built in. It also lacks a pop up flash since that is where they
>>put the GPS unit. Otherwise they are 100% the same really. If you
>>didn't need pixel shift or GPS I would just pass myself.
>
> Is pixel shift usable outside of studio shooting?
>
>
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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Stanley Halpin]

I had the K-3. I sold it (them) and moved from APS-C to the K-1. But if/when I 
decide to revisit APS-C, I would absolutely definitely choose K-3 over K-3ii. 

Two reasons. I still haven’t become convinced of any real world advantage to 
the pixel-shift gimmick. Second, the K-3ii ditches the pop-up flash and puts a 
GPS in its place. I love the GPS, it is something I asked for when on this 
list, soon after the *ist-D came out, we did a group discussion off what would 
we love to have now that our cameras are digital. But the add-on GPS thingie 
worked just fine. And the pop-up flash on the K-3 and earlier was very useful 
for occasional fill flash, but even more as a trigger for external flash. I 
have yet to see a reliable add-on I can use to trigger external Pentax flashes. 
So the K-3ii is a no go for me and the lack of a pop-up is my major criticism 
of the K-1.

Stan

> On Jan 9, 2017, at 12:43 PM, P. J. Alling  wrote:
> 
> For the purposes of general photography not much.  On the other hand, the K-3 
> is actually selling for more NIB than the K-3II is where it's available*...
> 
> *A phenomenon I've also noted about the K-5 vs later Pentax cameras as well.  
>  I suppose a NIB K-5 would be a nice collectors item, or not, but who would 
> choose it over a K-5II[s] or K-3II for actual photography?
> 
> 
> On 1/9/2017 10:09 AM, Collin B wrote:
>> What's the advantages of a K3II over a K3?
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Zos Xavius]

Whoah. I never noticed that. Interesting. Their DR and noise
performance is 100% identical from what I can tell. Maybe sony revised
that sensor along the way.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 12:46 PM, P. J. Alling
 wrote:
> The K-3II either has a different sensor or slightly different sensor
> masking, as it has a slightly higher pixel count.  Not enough to, by itself,
> make a "real world" difference in image quality, but it's not exactly the
> same.  Just very close in pretty much every respect.
>
>
>
> On 1/9/2017 10:49 AM, Zos Xavius wrote:
>>
>> The K-3 II has pixel shift, better SR (1 stop better), and the astro
>> tracer built in. It also lacks a pop up flash since that is where they
>> put the GPS unit. Otherwise they are 100% the same really. If you
>> didn't need pixel shift or GPS I would just pass myself.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Collin B  wrote:
>>>
>>> What's the advantages of a K3II over a K3?
>>>
>>>
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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[P. J. Alling]

The K-3II either has a different sensor or slightly different sensor 
masking, as it has a slightly higher pixel count.  Not enough to, by 
itself, make a "real world" difference in image quality, but it's not 
exactly the same.  Just very close in pretty much every respect.



On 1/9/2017 10:49 AM, Zos Xavius wrote:

The K-3 II has pixel shift, better SR (1 stop better), and the astro
tracer built in. It also lacks a pop up flash since that is where they
put the GPS unit. Otherwise they are 100% the same really. If you
didn't need pixel shift or GPS I would just pass myself.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Collin B  wrote:

What's the advantages of a K3II over a K3?


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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[P. J. Alling]

For the purposes of general photography not much.  On the other hand, 
the K-3 is actually selling for more NIB than the K-3II is where it's 
available*...


*A phenomenon I've also noted about the K-5 vs later Pentax cameras as 
well.   I suppose a NIB K-5 would be a nice collectors item, or not, but 
who would choose it over a K-5II[s] or K-3II for actual photography?



On 1/9/2017 10:09 AM, Collin B wrote:

What's the advantages of a K3II over a K3?





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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Collin B]

Zos said ...
>The K-3 II has pixel shift, better SR (1 stop better), and the astro
>tracer built in. It also lacks a pop up flash since that is where they
>put the GPS unit. Otherwise they are 100% the same really. If you
>didn't need pixel shift or GPS I would just pass myself.

Is pixel shift usable outside of studio shooting?


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Re: If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Zos Xavius]

The K-3 II has pixel shift, better SR (1 stop better), and the astro
tracer built in. It also lacks a pop up flash since that is where they
put the GPS unit. Otherwise they are 100% the same really. If you
didn't need pixel shift or GPS I would just pass myself.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Collin B  wrote:
> What's the advantages of a K3II over a K3?
>
>
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If I upgrade from my K5 ...

[Collin B]

What's the advantages of a K3II over a K3?


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