Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

gt;>> Bernard, list, >>> >>> Yes, you can regard De Tienne’s statement about mathematicians in a >>> non-existing world as a logical blunder; I regard it as a manifestation of >>> his peculiar sense of humor. >>> >>> As for the experience of

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Bernard, List: We cannot answer the question of "how we ought to practice the science of phaneroscopy today" without first establishing what the science of phaneroscopy *is*, which according to Peirce requires carefully distinguishing it from mathematics as a strictly hypothetical science and

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Le 12/08/2021 à 02:10, Jon Alan Schmidt a écrit : Bernard, List: BM: The main difficulty for me is the doctrinal turn of the exchanges that consist most often in some kind of gloss of Peirce's writings, as if they were gospels. JAS: Peirce's writings are our only definitive

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

lity. Peirce usually refers to “experience” >> as something forced upon us, indicating that Secondness is essential to >> it. In these Peircean terms, the “everyday work” of mathematicians, insofar >> is it is purely hypothetical, takes place in an internal world, a realm >> of “

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Edwina, List: ET: But isn't an argument also needed to demonstrate that a particular quotation is being interpreted and presented in a way that truthfully represents its author's original intent? I typically provide quotations from Peirce as evidence that the views I am attributing to him are

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }List, JAS wrote: "Any quotation of any author is removed from its original context, so an argument is needed to demonstrate that a particular quotation is being interpreted and presented in a way that somehow

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Bernard, List: BM: The main difficulty for me is the doctrinal turn of the exchanges that consist most often in some kind of gloss of Peirce's writings, as if they were gospels. Peirce's writings are our only definitive source for ascertaining what *his *views were, in this case *his

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

neglect of mathematical applications. This is one reason why he (and Peirce) do not refer to pure mathematics as “experiential” in the sense that phaneroscopy is. Gary f. From: peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu On Behalf Of Bernard Morand Sent: 11-Aug-21 09:18 To: peirce-l@list.iupui.edu

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Edwina, List: ET: The problem I have with De Tienne's outline of mathematics is the intense focus he gives to its essential irrelevance to we who live in the real world. This continues to miss the point entirely, which is not that pure mathematics is *irrelevant *to living in the real world,

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

rom:*peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu <mailto:peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu> mailto:peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu>> *On Behalf Of *Bernard Morand *Sent:* 11-Aug-21 09:18 *To:* peirce-l@list.iupui.edu <mailto:peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> *Subject:* Re

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

09:18 To: peirce-l@list.iupui.edu [6] Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23 Gary f. , list De Tienne slide 23 starts with: "BECAUSE mathematics, in principle, is not concerned with anything but itself. The world could stop existing, but to pure mathe

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

t;>> “experience” as something *forced* upon us, indicating that Secondness >>> is essential to it. In these Peircean terms, the “everyday work” of >>> mathematicians, *insofar is it is purely hypothetical*, takes place in >>> an internal world, a realm of “degen

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

e’s talk/slideshow >> involves a focus on *pure* mathematics and a corresponding neglect of >> mathematical *applications*. This is one reason why he (and Peirce) do >> not refer to pure mathematics as “experiential” in the sense that >> phaneroscopy is. >> >> G

RE: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Bernard, list, I just noticed that the point I was trying to make below (about “experience”) is more fully explained by Peirce in this 1893 text: Experiencing (TS ·7) (gnusystems.ca) Gary f. From: peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu On

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

hematics as “experiential” in the sense that > phaneroscopy is. > > Gary f. > > *From:* peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu *On > Behalf Of *Bernard Morand > *Sent:* 11-Aug-21 09:18 > *To:* peirce-l@list.iupui.edu > *Subject:* Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23 &

RE: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

not refer to pure mathematics as “experiential” in the sense that phaneroscopy is. Gary f. From: peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu On Behalf Of Bernard Morand Sent: 11-Aug-21 09:18 To: peirce-l@list.iupui.edu Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23 Gary f. , list De

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Gary f. , list De Tienne slide 23  starts with: "BECAUSE mathematics, in principle, is not concerned with anything but itself. The world could stop existing, but to pure mathematicians that would at most be an inconvenience." This is clearly a blunder since if the world stopped existing,

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

John Alan , List Jon Alan, not being a crusader against ADT, I am much less interested in ADT's confusion than if he could explain (i.e. state more clearly, make more intelligible) "these essential principles of mathematics" in such a way that one can distinguish clearly what kind of mathematics

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Gary F., List: I likewise remain puzzled by the persistent claims that André (or anyone else) is somehow "arguing against mathematics," especially with over-the-top language about an alleged "phaneroscopy vaccine against the mathematics virus." After all, he states plainly in slide 21 that

RE: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Bernard, thank you for a thoughtful post (and thanks to Jon S for an equally thoughtful reply to it). I especially appreciate your tacit acknowledgement of the emotional basis of your own response to De Tienne’s choice of language at “the starting point in slide 23.” But my own response will be

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

act us from the point of slides 22-3, which is that phaneroscopy does not and cannot provide mathematics with any fundamental principle. Gary f. From: peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu [4] On Behalf Of Jon Alan Schmidt Sent: 8-Aug-21 20:54 To: Peirce-L Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] André

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

need > not distract us from the point of slides 22-3, which is that phaneroscopy > does not and cannot provide mathematics with any fundamental principle. > > Gary f. > > > > *From:* peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu *On > Behalf Of *Jon Alan Schmidt > *Sent:* 8-A

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Edwina, List: ET: We are, as far as I can understand, instead discussing the ROLE of mathematics in our understanding of and relationship to the Real World. De Tienne, in slide 23, makes it clear that there is no relation and no role for mathematics. Again, we need to distinguish *pure

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }JAS, Robert, Gary F, list JAS - I think you are introducing issues which we are not discussing; namely, we are not discussing whether or not mathematics refers to the actual vs the potential. I think the answer

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Edwina, List: As Gary F. already noted, there is no conflict between CP 1.53 (c. 1896) and CP 1.247 (1902). I also see no inconsistency between these passages and CP 1.646 (1898), and presumably neither does André since he also quotes the latter on slide 23. What CP 1.247 excludes from the scope

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }JAS, Robert, Gary F, list: The fact that De Tienne changed a Peircean quotation and inserted other words from Peirce [and not His Own Words] doesn't change the FACT that De Tienne changed the meaning of that quotation by

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Gary F., List: Thanks for clarifying that the misquoted text is actually a conflation of two different passages written by Peirce, not an insertion by André of his own words. I have notified him of the mistake, which again does not detract from the acknowledged fact that mathematicians must

RE: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

is that phaneroscopy does not and cannot provide mathematics with any fundamental principle. Gary f. From: peirce-l-requ...@list.iupui.edu On Behalf Of Jon Alan Schmidt Sent: 8-Aug-21 20:54 To: Peirce-L Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23 Robert, List: I sincerely

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }Robert, List Thank you for this clarification of the role of mathematics. 1] I find that De Tienne's slide 23 is troubling. Note how his five paragraphs, which include an example of a mathematician, seem

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 23

Robert, List: I sincerely appreciate the correction of the excerpt from CP 1.53 (c. 1896). It is surprising and indeed troubling that André would insert his own words where he is purportedly quoting Peirce. My first thought was that perhaps the additional phrase was in the original manuscript and

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne : Slow Read Slide 23

Dear Robert, List ... The catch, of course, occurs in the qua-le-fication “(qua mathematician)”, by which the writer abstracts an idealization from the concrete realities of being, as does the reader who subscribes to the quale-fiction. Regards, Jon CP 1.53 in COLLECTED PAPERS : “The most

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read Slide 23

Helmut, As it happens, I still remember a problem we had in Algebra I my freshman year of high school. A man fires a rifle at a balloon directly overhead (dumb thing to do but that's just men). The muzzle velocity of the bullet and the altitude of the balloon are given and so we have a