And hello again, Charles.
CB: This is a problem for you because of your utopianism. Marx predicted
that the Paris Commune would be a folly
of dispair, but also knew that it was the beginning of actual socialism,
with all its faults, and advanced his theory of
socialism based on it. Similarly
Sorry! Sam Pawlett's definition of sex is sexist. It is not simply sexist
because of the "penetration" thing (since intercourse is necessary).
so why is it sexist then?
first, sexual activity is constructed in his language as an activity
"initiated" by men, so women are presented as powerless
Greetings Economists,
I agree with what Mine raises about the sexist point of view that Sam
Pawlett put forward as his view of human reproduction. Sam had made that
remark in the context of discussing essentialism, and I would just add to
what Mine wrote that, Sam's remarks show how an
Mine, there are many many people on this list who believe that women
should have children and that it is their only purpose in life. So, the
argument you make is bound to be very controversial. I understand that Sam
is also for keeping women bound barefoot in the kitchen...for shame!
Steve
On
true, Doyle..
Mine
-- Forwarded message -- Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:28:47
-0700 From: Doyle Saylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:
[PEN-L:19269] Re: Re: Re: Genderization
Greetings Economists,
I agree with what Mine raises
I don't wanna be controversial, but why?
Mine
Mine, there are many many people on this list who believe that women
should have children and that it is their only purpose in life. So, the
argument you make is bound to be very controversial.
Steve
I have read everything.
Rod
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What did you read about Soviet socialism?
Mine
Interesting musings Carrol, but words have meanings, and what most people
mean by the word socialism is not what was seen in the USSR. You can call
it what you want, but I don't call it
The problem with the "Dialectics of Nature" is that Engels tries to turn
dialectics into a formal system, and thus destroys the meaning of the word.
This synthesis-antithesis-synthesis crap does not appear in Hegel or in Marx.
Rod
Rob Schaap wrote:
G'day Charles,
You say "Materialist
for example?
Mine
I have read everything.
Rod
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What did you read about Soviet socialism?
Mine
Interesting musings Carrol, but words have meanings, and what most people
mean by the word socialism is not what was seen in the USSR. You can call
it what you
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:47:07 +0530
From: S DE [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WORLD SYSTEMS NETWORK [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Fwd: new viruses...]
Dear user,
There are a large no. of viruses active now-a-days,
including "I LOVE YOU" virus.
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/18/00 05:11PM
Mark,
So, was this utopian or not? We certainly did
not see any withering away of the state, not in the
former USSR, not in the PRC, not anywhere that
was or is ruled by a self-labeled Communist Party
(or some variation on
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/18/00 06:14PM
Jim,
I did not mean that the vision was pathetic. I
meant that the actual outcome in light of the vision/
(forecast) was pathetic.
_
CB: It was not Marx's vision that the state would whither away until there were no
And now the latest hits from the Holier than Thou Marxist Chorus:
Perhaps Marx was utopian. But we will have to wait until we have a socialists
society, in order to find out. The Soviet Union called itself socialist but it
wasn't.
I did not mean that the vision was pathetic. I
meant
Jean Laherrere's paper delivered today at the energyresources2000 on-line
conference underscores something which has been obvious to anyone who has
attempted to make sense of reports on oil/energy put out by various US
government agencies in recent years (principally the annual reports of the
folks, please do not open the attachments then. I have just realized this.
I can not guarantee the status of the attachments. it was sent by the wsn
system administrator to the list as a warning of new viruses.. I don't
think a virus is attached to his post, since he is a serious person...but
Brad De Long wrote:
So why, then, is the first Marx so weak in post-Marxian Marxism?
Why was the world afflicted with, say, Paul Sweezy's claim that
"One need not have a specific idea of a... beautiful musical
composition, to recognize that the... the rock-and-roll that blares
at us
What do you have against cars with big fins? --jks
My god. Where did he say that?
Doug
_Monopoly Capital_, pp. 138-9. He also takes after slums and cars
with big fins, where he has more of a point...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What do you have against cars with big fins? --jks
Aside from the fact that they were rather ugly, they were
also rather mean if one backed into you. If I remeber
correctly, there was a handful of news items on the
grisly effects of that.
Secondary effect: they
Mine,
Yes, I have read the CM and am well acquainted
with its platform. I have even been known to make
students read it and discuss and be tested on it.
I note that Critique of the Gotha Program was
written a quarter of a century later, or thereabouts.
There is no reason to link its
K
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on 19/5/00 4:16 am, Brad De Long at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Brad De Long wrote:
So why, then, is the first Marx so weak in post-Marxian Marxism?
Why was the world afflicted with, say, Paul Sweezy's claim that
Charles,
Frankly, I see the "withering away of the state" as
a millennial vision, like the second coming in Christianity.
When John the Baptist met Yeshua bin Miriam he
declared that he was the messiah and the "end is near."
At various points over the last 2000 years, various folks
have
Rob Schaap [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 12:09AM
And hello again, Charles.
CB: This is a problem for you because of your utopianism. Marx predicted
that the Paris Commune would be a folly
of dispair, but also knew that it was the beginning of actual socialism,
with all its faults, and advanced
Rod,
"Everything"? Really? Ponomaesh Russki yazik?
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000 7:11 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:19273] Re: Re: Re: : withering away of the state (fwd)
I have read
Dear Pen-l,
I for one did not open this message. It is my
understanding that some of the latest viruses have
come labeled as "virus alerts" with packages attached
that are supposed to help you fight it.
Maybe this one is legit, but just so you all know.
Barkley Rosser
-Original
At 07:46 PM 5/18/00 -0400, you wrote:
Perhaps Marx was utopian. But we will have to wait until we have a socialists
society, in order to find out. The Soviet Union called itself socialist but it
wasn't.
I think that quibbling about whether or not the USSR was "socialist" is
useless. Names are
Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 07:10AM
The problem with the "Dialectics of Nature" is that Engels tries to turn
dialectics into a formal system, and thus destroys the meaning of the word.
This synthesis-antithesis-synthesis crap does not appear in Hegel or in Marx.
_
CB: No,
At 10:43 AM 5/19/00 -0400, you wrote:
What do you have against cars with big fins? --jks
if a horse falls against a 1959 Cadillac, it can die.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://liberalarts.lmu.edu/~jdevine
I guess you have "state capitalist" model in your mind, which you
mistakenly attribute to Marx's CM.. On the contrary, In CM, Marx endorses
"state socialist" model.
Moreover, Marx criticizes the state capitalist (social democratic) model
in the Gotha program, saying that universal free
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 11:07AM
Charles,
Frankly, I see the "withering away of the state" as
a millennial vision, like the second coming in Christianity.
When John the Baptist met Yeshua bin Miriam he
declared that he was the messiah and the "end is near."
At
Dismissing a direct reading of the "withering away of the state" phrase as
an "anarchist" interpretation will not do. It is an outburst
of anarchist utopianism by Marx, pure and simple.
Draper's exhaustive survey of absolutely everything that Marx said about
this subject suggests that it
Mine,
How do I have a "state capitalist model in mind"?
I simply noted that some parts of the CM are now
widely adopted in many societies and some are not,
but fully agree with you that what is in the CM is, more
or less, a reasonable description of what a socialist
system would look like.
Charles Brown wrote:
Actually, isn't it a big part of our problem that what _most people_ DO mean
by "socialism" what they had in the USSR? --jks
CB: This is a problem for you because of your utopianism. Marx
predicted that the Paris Commune would be a folly of dispair, but
also
Doug Henwood wrote:
Wait a minute. A model that failed and which is now held in almost
universally low regard
I've never praised or dispraised any position on the grounds that
it was or was not "marxist." I'll break that habit now. The use of
the concept of "model" in reference to social
in 1917, REVOLUTION happened in Russia, whether you like it or not. it was
a perfectly democratic and legitimate way of resisting to the system. You
can not take away people's right to resist. It is completely legitimate
to overthrow an "illegitimate" system based on coercion and exploitation
Charles says:
Claims such as Justin's that my approach to Lenin and Marx is like that of an
approach to the Father , Son and Holy Ghost, are, ironically, themselves, liberal
dogma, unfounded selfcongratulation that Justin or someone thinks more critically and
undogmatically than I. This is
Yeah, I know, those old cars are fragile. I would never let a horse fall on mine. --jks
At 10:43 AM 5/19/00 -0400, you wrote:
What do you have against cars with big fins? --jks
if a horse falls against a 1959 Cadillac, it can die.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brad De Long wrote:
Brad De Long wrote:
So why, then, is the first Marx so weak in post-Marxian Marxism?
Why was the world afflicted with, say, Paul Sweezy's claim that
"One need not have a specific idea of a... beautiful musical
composition, to recognize that the... the rock-and-roll that
Jim Devine wrote: In the terms I used, this positing of possessiveness
reflected Hobbes' experience with the English Civil War and the rise of
capitalist competition.
Mine writes:
Yes and No. Hobbes was not *simply* writing under the influence of his
circumstances. He was also
Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 12:41PM
Charles Brown wrote:
Actually, isn't it a big part of our problem that what _most people_ DO mean
by "socialism" what they had in the USSR? --jks
CB: This is a problem for you because of your utopianism. Marx
predicted that the
Hey, folks, since there is yet another discussion
going on here about "what is socialism," I thought I would
pass on this tidbit to let you all know that some people
think that Hayek was one!
(Apologies to Michael who prefers to have no
mention of Hayek on his list because of Hayek's
Doug Henwood wrote:
[snip] Ernest Mandel criticized in this passage
from Late Capitalism:
[snip] (the actual extension of cultural needs, to the extent
to which they are not trivialized or deprived of their human content
by capitalist commercialization).
This whole passage from Mandel
Doug,
It is possible to say that the USSR was a "model
of socialism" (Carrol Cox's complaint, nothwithstanding)
while nevertheless maintaining that it was/is not THE
"model for socialism."
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mine,
I have less problem with Lenin's seizing power than
I do with his shutting down the Duma a month later when
the SRs won the election rather than his Bolsheviks.
There was the original sin of the Bolshevik Revolution
from which many others flowed after.
Indeed, it is very relevant
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 12:55PM
Charles says:
Claims such as Justin's that my approach to Lenin and Marx is like that of an
approach to the Father , Son and Holy Ghost, are, ironically, themselves, liberal
dogma, unfounded selfcongratulation that Justin or someone thinks more
K
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
on 19/5/00 4:16 am, Brad De Long at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Brad De Long wrote:
So why, then, is the first Marx so weak in post-Marxian Marxism?
Why was the world afflicted with, say, Paul Sweezy's claim that
Perhaps but that could cut two ways,
as in socialism yes, good no. No
reason to assume every form of socialism
would be desirable.
mbs
I bet if we took a count more people would consider the USSR
socialism (communism even) than not.
CB
Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/18/00 09:15PM
On 18 May 00, at 22:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ideas have consequences, but not mechanical ones. yes they do:
I will now unsub from pen-l to get away from all its chit chat trash
and re re re trash.
Brad De Long wrote:
I think that the line between Sweezy's attitude toward rock-and-roll
and the suppression of the Czechoslovakian Jazz Section, or the
bulldozing of Moscow modern art exhibits, is pretty clear. The point
is not the "discrediting" of Sweezy, but how it came to be that
people
Brad raises an important question about the cultural development of Soviet-style
socialism. It has been noted that there are parallels between "socialist realism" and
the sort of art promoted under Nazism. This suggests that there is something in the
way totalitarian, or would-be totalitarian,
This may seem a cliche, but I'd say it is more complex than "yea, yea, or nay, nay", (
I really hate to say this one) "good and bad", "success and failure".
It had some good and some bad ( and ugly), some success and some failure ( and freedom
even).
For us, the importance of the SU is to
Brad, pen-l's resident contrarian, writes:
I think that the line between Sweezy's attitude toward rock-and-roll and
the suppression of the Czechoslovakian Jazz Section, or the bulldozing of
Moscow modern art exhibits, is pretty clear.
Actually, the (disgusting) quote from MONOPOLY CAPITAL was
THO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
(Please feel free to disseminate this announcenet to your friends,
libraries and journal directories around the world.)
The Global Business Economics Review (GBER) is an international refereed
journal, published semi-annually (June and December) by the Business
Brad raises an important question about the cultural development
of Soviet-style socialism. It has been noted that there are
parallels between "socialist realism" and the sort of art
promoted under Nazism. This suggests that there is something in
the way totalitarian, or would-be
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 02:45PM
Brad, pen-l's resident contrarian, writes:
I think that the line between Sweezy's attitude toward rock-and-roll and
the suppression of the Czechoslovakian Jazz Section, or the bulldozing of
Moscow modern art exhibits, is pretty clear.
Actually,
Apropos the conversation the other day over whether the national
income product accounts were an attempt "to hoodwink the people,"
the Bureau of Economic Analysis, which does the U.S. NIPAs, has an
official history at
http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/aw/0100od/maintext.htm.
Doug
Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 03:12PM
Apropos the conversation the other day over whether the national
income product accounts were an attempt "to hoodwink the people,"
the Bureau of Economic Analysis, which does the U.S. NIPAs, has an
official history at
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 03:18PM
Didn't it just come out that the CIA WAS promoting modern art with an
anti-communist political aim ?
that doesn't mean that it was bad art.
__
CB: I thought the Soviets knocked it out because it was being used for anti-communist
CB wrote:
Didn't it just come out that the CIA WAS promoting modern art with an
anti-communist political aim ?
I replied:
that doesn't mean that it was bad art.
CB now replies:
I thought the Soviets knocked it out because it was being used for
anti-communist purposes, "good or bad".
So,
Too bad Louie Proyect is off hiding on an Indian
reservation. He could add to this
I think in the case of abstract art that the condemnation
came before the anti-communist use. At the time of the
1917 Russian Revolution, abstract art already existed, with
some of its most
- Original Message -
From: "seth wigderson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 3:04 PM
Subject: Ohio State University Settles
Dear Friends,
Here is the CWA story and the OSU Press Release
SW
- - - - - -
OSU Strikers Win Tentative PactMay
Barkley, interpreting Marx is difficult enough without trying to do so through
the lens of Lenin's policies, during a war.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I recall the week after J. Kennedy was killed, the bars did not have bands
as some sort of patriotic gesture. I still remember fondly how nice the
conversations were.
Carrol Cox wrote:
One effect of rock music (quite aside from its excellence or lack of
excellence as music) has been the
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 03:52PM
So, maybe they were right about one thing. But they -- the unelected Soviet
equivalents of Jesse Helms -- deserved to be tweaked by art, if not more.
___
CB: More than you deserve to be tweaked by art ?
We have not heard much from Yoshie for a while, but it seems that she
has been very successful in her efforts.
OSU Strikers Win Tentative PactMay 19, 2000
Negotiators have reached a tentative agreement to end the three-week
strike
at Ohio State University, where CWA's fight for
RE
The point is not the "discrediting" of Sweezy,
but how it came to be that people who claimed
to be committed to a tradition that extolled human
freedom, potential, and development could be so hostile to...
...jazz...modern art ...rock and roll
It's pretty simple to my
At 04:26 PM 5/19/00 -0400, you wrote:
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 03:52PM
So, maybe they were right about one thing. But they -- the unelected Soviet
equivalents of Jesse Helms -- deserved to be tweaked by art, if not more.
___
CB: More than you deserve to be tweaked by
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 04:35PM
At 04:26 PM 5/19/00 -0400, you wrote:
So, maybe they were right about one thing. But they -- the unelected Soviet
equivalents of Jesse Helms -- deserved to be tweaked by art, if not more.
___
CB: More than you deserve to be tweaked by
Eric wrote:
In short, distaste for rock-and-roll might be intimately linked to the
revoluationary vanguard that takes over the state "in the name of the
capitalist masses."
making another link, this is straight out of Rousseau, who saw the masses
as corrupted and thus hoped that an enlightened
Statistics
v Number of people in the world, (pop. 5.5 billion) that live in abject poverty: 1.4
billion
v Number of people currently expected to die from starvation: 900 million
v Percentage of those that live in the undeveloped
nations: 97
v Number of children in world dying each year
CB: So many here are holier than them Soviets.
I've never sent a bunch of troops to suppress the beginnings of democracy
in Czechoslovakia. In fact, I've never killed _anyone_. So I guess that I'm
holier than the Soviets, though not necessarily holier than thou.
BTW, it's wrong to blame
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 05:00PM
I think that there's a link between philosophical idealism -- e.g., Plato,
Rousseau, the Walrasianism of the IMF and other neoliberal forces, and
Stalin's idealist version of "diamat" and "histomat" -- and imposition on
others from above.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/19/00 05:05PM
CB: So many here are holier than them Soviets.
I've never sent a bunch of troops to suppress the beginnings of democracy
in Czechoslovakia.
CB: Democracy "began" when there when the Nazis were removed by the Red Army.
CB: So many here are holier than them Soviets.
Sure, we have no right to condemn people who send artists whose work they didn't like
to die in labor camps, or, in palmier days, to have their thoughts corrected in
psychiatric hospitals. Now, why didn't that occur to me? --jks
Carrol wrote:
I'm a bit sceptical of using opinions on art as arguing points. I
wondered about this also with reference to Ted Winslow's
quoting of Marx's "man also produces in accordance with the
laws of beauty." By coincidence just before I read Ted's post
Yeats's lines
Solider
CB: So many here are holier than them Soviets.
sez me:
I've never sent a bunch of troops to suppress the beginnings of democracy
in Czechoslovakia.
in response:
CB: Democracy "began" when there when the Nazis were removed by the Red Army.
I guess we disagree about the meaning of the word
Duma was originally an elite establishment started by autocracy and
liberals allying with the tsarist regime. it was not a democractic
institution to begin with. I think Bolsheviks carried Duma to its logical
conclusion, at a time when european parliemants were still under the
tutelage of
I would add one more thing.Weber's definition of state is quite
misleading. If state is defined in terms of monopolization of power,I
don't think this is unique to capitalist state. If you carefully read
Weber's _Sociology of Ancient Civilizations_, where he analyzes
pre-capitalist states, you
Forwarded from Nicole..
Mine
" I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish
brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been
gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the
regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great
What's misleading about a definition of the state that is wider than the
capitalist state? Weber would not regard tht as a criticism. Neither would
Marx regard it asa criticism to say that his approximation to a definition
of the state, an instrument of one class for oppressing another,is
Brad De Long wrote:
I think that the line between Sweezy's attitude toward rock-and-roll
and the suppression of the Czechoslovakian Jazz Section, or the
bulldozing of Moscow modern art exhibits, is pretty clear. The point
is not the "discrediting" of Sweezy, but how it came to be that
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sorry! Sam Pawlett's definition of sex is sexist.
I think I would say this thread is dead here, but I have to reply to
false accusations. Mention the word "penetrate" and you get labelled an
August Strindberg!
Please. I wasn't putting forward a complete
justin wrote:
capitalism. Gramsci's notion of hegemony, which you praise, is also very
general.
I would not doubt about that. More specifically, and from a sociological
point of view, it is more accurate to argue that Gramsci translated the
political economic language of marxism to a
No Barkeley just a silly answer to a silly question. But I have read enough,
that anything radically new would surprise me.
Rod
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
Rod,
"Everything"? Really? Ponomaesh Russki yazik?
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Rod Hay [EMAIL
Many women prefer not to have children and have excellent reasons for
their choice. That's fine but some
will have to to keep the human race from going extinct. What would
happen if all women stopped giving birth? THE SPECIES WOULD DIE OUT. Are
Sam, I did not say that we should not reproduce
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