David Shemano writes:
The issue is not whether East Germany, or any other socialist
economy, was less able [...]
Yes it was -- the part you are responding to. It was about regions.
I wanted to show that you probably didn't even know where Europe is...
let alone why Germany is not a unit.
There
Ken, this comes close to baiting.
On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 01:38:03AM -0400, Kenneth Campbell wrote:
David Shemano writes:
The issue is not whether East Germany, or any other socialist
economy, was less able [...]
Yes it was -- the part you are responding to. It was about regions.
I
Michael writes:
Ken, this comes close to baiting.
Sorry. True... it could... but there is a difference, don't you think?
I was baiting on a personal level (You freaking lawyers!) or just
the unexpected kind on this list (As a group, US lawyers are not well
trained in other cultures)?
Ken.
--
I would not like to see an extended Stalin debate.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
In a message dated 8/16/2004 5:39:53 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Stalin was not hated (by most people). He was worshipped (by most people). Being a brutal dictator does not necessarily mean that you are hated or seen as illegitimate by the people over whom you are
--- andie nachgeborenen:
I agree with about the good Czar with under
Stalinism, but that is not an example of socialist
democracy -- I don't think you think it is either.
---
Certainly not.
__
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile
--- andie nachgeborenen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I agree with your reservations about the term
Stalinism, I just don't have a better one.
I agree with about the good Czar with under
Stalinism, but that is not an example of socialist
democracy -- I don't think you think it is either.
jks
In a message dated 8/15/2004 1:00:35 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The American system of vehicle production was very bureaucratic . . . but less than that of the Soviets and much more than that of the Japanese producers . . . in terms of democratic input of the workers .
Agreed. That's playing with fire.
--- Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I would not like to see an extended Stalin debate.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why does the Japanese produce better vehicles and the
old Soviet vehicles ... as massed produced . . . not
specialized .. . were of an inferior quality? One
thread of thought says the Soviet system was inferior
to the American system and the Soviet workers were
lazy,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why does the Japanese produce better vehicles and the
old Soviet vehicles ... as massed produced . . . not
specialized .. . were of an inferior quality? One
thread of thought says the Soviet system was inferior
to the American system and the Soviet workers were
lazy,
--- Carrol Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Secondly, the primary Marxist point about capitalism
was that,
destructive of human life as capitalism had been from
its very
beginning
(the advances for the few from the beginning
disguising the greater
horror for the many), it _had_ opened up the
--- andie nachgeborenen So I'll use it anyway. I
don't care if it isn't a Russian word, I don't think
the Russians understand the Soviet era any better than
Western specialists. Which isn't very well -- I speak
having been one once.
--
Well, the Russians (Ukrainians, Latvians, etc. etc.
etc.) do
---Didn't the Bolsheviks at one point deliberately try toimmitate aspects of American big capital? (I'mreviewing Yale Rochmond's Cultural Exchange and theCold War, and he asserts this.)* *
Lenin expressly holds up Taylorism as an ideal for Soviet industry at a couple of points. I could find the
The whole matter of workers control and democratic input in the actual production process or what I understand to be the collective intellectual and emotional passions of the working class . . . and giving this broad _expression_ . . . has driven me up the wall for twenty years of my working
Justin (converted to plain text from html code): Lenin expressly holds
up Taylorism as an ideal for Soviet industry at a couple of points. I
could find the references if you wanted. But I think the Bolshies were
more impressed with German war planning planning, which was more
familiar to them.
I agree with your reservations about the term Stalinism, I just don't have a better one.
I agree with about the good Czar with under Stalinism, but that is not an example of socialist democracy -- I don't think you think it is either.
jksChris Doss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
--- andie
In a message dated 8/15/2004 12:34:00 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Lenin expressly holds up Taylorism as an ideal for Soviet industry at a couple of points. I could find the references if you wanted. But I think the Bolshies were more impressed with German war planning
Carrol Cox wrote:
If necessary labor (in Hannah Arendt's sense of _merely_ necessary
labor
in contrast to work or action) is to be reduced to the absolute
minimum,
and men/women are to be fishers in the morning and critics in the
afternoon, that necessary labor needs to be rationalized and
The majority of cars sold in Russia are Russian-made,
or imports of used cars from the West. Not many people
are going to be able to afford a brand-new Volvo.
--- Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Obviously, someone who is very poor needs
transportation will be unlikely to
purchase a
Do we really know at all what a socialist society would do about transportation safety? I think trying to predict from the hostory of Stalinist societies is a very shaky guide. A socialist society, as most conceive it in this list, would be one where there would be a lot more democratic input into
Where did you get it? It's not like there is a Lada dealership on every corner . . . jksDaniel Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I drove a Lada for five years. It was fourteen years old when I got it andwas still going just fine when I gave it away last month. They were builtoff the plans of old
On Saturday, August 14, 2004 at 07:18:13 (-0700) andie nachgeborenen writes:
Do we really know at all what a socialist society would do about
transportation safety? I think trying to predict from the hostory of
Stalinist societies is a very shaky guide. A socialist society, as
most conceive it in
by andie nachgeborenen
Do we really know at all what a socialist society would do about
transportation safety? I think trying to predict from the hostory of
Stalinist societies is a very shaky guide. A socialist society, as most
conceive it in this list, would be one where there would be a lot
--- Charles Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
CB: It is not quite clear that because there was a
Gulag, show trials
of
Party members and other acts of state repression on
specific occasions,
that
there was no or little democratic process in decisions
on other matters
in
Soviet society during Stalin's
The distinction between Stalinist societies that
appropriated the name
socialist and those based upon real democratic input
is absolutely
spot-on.
Bill
--
What would you call the USSR when it had free
elections in 1990?
__
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo!
--- andie nachgeborenen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Where did you get it? It's not like there is a Lada
dealership on every corner . . . jks
There is here. :)
__
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
Well, I don't want to get into this distraction on the Russian question, but you could call the system bureaucratic collectivism (Schachtman's term) or the command-administrative system (the perestroichiki's term), or totalitarianism, or lots of things, but the fact is we don't really havea good
David:
Cop out. In my experience, there was one example of
a
socialist inspired car in the capitalist market: the
Yugo.
Case closed.
---
This is totally untrue. The USSR exported automobiles
to Latin America and elsewhere. Russia and Belarus
export tractors to Australia to this day, where
--- Kenneth Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just this eve, I was spending some time talking about
history with a
friend. She brought out a book with a variety of
graphs. The most
salient one, in this regard (thread), was the shift of
population from
agricultural workers to industrial workers.
by David B. Shemano
I knew my statement would cause a problem, but I think the point is valid.
You, Charles Brown, subjectively value safety in such a manner that you
think
the speed limit should be 40 and not 70. I am not sure why your entirely
subjective opinion translates into a rule for
by Chris Doss
---
Yeah. Look at communal apartments, which were always
adduced in anti-Soviet propaganda as evidence of the
evils of the latter system. In fact, communal
apartments were a response to massive and rapid
urbanization. People have to live somewhere. When
England industrialized, what
--- Charles Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
^^
CB: Are you saying the Soviet people did not think
their policy was
about
socialism or that they didn't know what they were
really doing ?
---
Mainly that was me writing off the cuff while trying
to meet a deadline and working through a hangover.
Mainly that was me writing off the cuff while trying to meet a deadline and working through a hangover. It would be better to say something like "the shape of Soviet society was determined first and foremost by the need to develop an agrarian country. It succeeded. The rest of the stuff is
by Chris Doss
Mainly that was me writing off the cuff while trying
to meet a deadline and working through a hangover. It
wiould be better to say something like the shape of
Soviet society was determined first and foremost by
the need to develop an agrarian country. It succeeded.
The rest of teh
David wrote:
I was never good at geography.
That's apparent.
The argument was made that a socialist economy would put more
emphasis on transportation safety than a capitalist economy.
Seems plausible. Silly me, I though one way to test that
thesis was to examine and compare the actual products
Charles Brown wrote:
CB: Why was there a need to develop the agrarian country ? People had been
surviving in agrarian societies for millenia.
For one thing, the USSR existed in a capitalist sea, as Stalin said in
1930, they had 10 years to catch up with the west industrially,
culturally,
Carrol Cox wrote:
Secondly, the primary Marxist point about capitalism was that,
destructive of human life as capitalism had been from its very beginning
(the advances for the few from the beginning disguising the greater
horror for the many), it _had_ opened up the possibility of _real_
--- Charles Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
CB: Why was there a need to develop the agrarian
country ? People had been
surviving in agrarian societies for millenia.
Fend off the West? Russia's been doing this since
Peter the Great.
__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!
Kenneth Campbell writes:
How about West and East Germany? Can't complain about
different historical development.
I think most might agree that there is a very different historical
development between the parts of Germany that were east and west. Check
it out. Pretty main stream.
And,
David the Savior is back and writes:
Let's try one last time.
Please do. We appreciate your altruism.
The suggestion was made that a socialist economy will
more highly value transportation safety than a
capitalist economy.
If you are trying to cite thread precedent, I applaud you.
Economics
:42
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Economics and law
David:
Cop out. In my experience, there was one example of
a
socialist inspired car in the capitalist market: the
Yugo.
Case closed.
---
This is totally untrue. The USSR exported automobiles
to Latin America and elsewhere. Russia
Kenneth Campbell writes
But I will take the bait. Show me what you have learned about eastern
Germany and why that section of that country would be a tad less able
to produce cars. (You can do it!)
The issue is not whether East Germany, or any other socialist economy, was less able
to
Obviously, someone who is very poor needs transportation will be unlikely to
purchase a Volvo would be more likely to settle for a Yugo.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Charles Brown writes:
Why is your personal opinion relevant? I mean, I am sure I can find
somebody
(Melvin P.?) who apparently highly values going 100. Therefore, your
opinion
is cancelled out. Now what do we do?
^
CB: Well, it's like why vote ? Your vote is only one in millions.
Charles wrote:
It's hard because the Soviet Union (and all socialist
inspired economies) had to put so much economic
emphasis on military defense because capitalism was
constantly invading them or threatening to nuke 'em.
This throws off all ability to measure from Soviet and
socialist inspired
David interprets the car as a capitalist commodity. I partially agree
with him, but for different reasons since I don't like cars.
But the question would be how the automobile industry depended heavily
on the state -- to build roads, to dislodge street cars
Michael Perelman
Economics
Kenneth Campbell wrote:
Respectfully, David, your response is itself a cop out. Yugo... you be
nice now.
Just this eve, I was spending some time talking about history with a
friend. She brought out a book with a variety of graphs. The most
salient one, in this regard (thread), was the shift of
At 9:32 PM -0700 8/10/04, David B. Shemano wrote:
Even taking your example into consideration, let's imagine a lack of
economic coercion. Actually, I can't imagine it. In any event,
let's assume that the law requires every car have the safety of a
Lexus and everybody can afford a Lexus. Fine.
by David B. Shemano
Why is your personal opinion relevant? I mean, I am sure I can find
somebody
(Melvin P.?) who apparently highly values going 100. Therefore, your
opinion
is cancelled out. Now what do we do?
^
CB: Well, it's like why vote ? Your vote is only one in millions. How can
Coincidently, here a news story today.
Charles
^
Road deaths fall to new low
Wednesday, August 11, 2004
Image
http://www.detnews.com/pix/2004/08/11/0asec/081104-p1-nhtsa-fatality-ch.jpg
http://www.detnews.com/pix/folios/dot.gif
Road deaths
by Kenneth Campbell
CB: Another infamous case of this was the exploding Pinto of Ford.
Thanks, CB. That was the 70s. May not apply to the original post I made,
in the time frame... but same principle.
Regardless... The notion that lives have worth based upon economic
evaluation is hated
Charles wrote:
You are probably aware that many juries ( composed largely
on North American workers) have given such high awards
often that the rightwing has been carrying out tort
reform for a while, whereby caps are put on the amounts.
It was my understanding that many of these awards are
government figures.
- Original Message -
From: Kenneth Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Economics and law
Charles wrote:
You are probably aware that many juries ( composed largely
on North American workers) have
: Kenneth Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Economics and law
Charles wrote:
You are probably aware that many juries ( composed largely
on North American workers) have given such high awards
often that the rightwing has
of difference in crash impact.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: ken hanly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Economics and law
Actually I dont think that the Pinto Case was one of a straightforward
by Kenneth Campbell
Charles wrote:
You are probably aware that many juries ( composed largely
on North American workers) have given such high awards
often that the rightwing has been carrying out tort
reform for a while, whereby caps are put on the amounts.
It was my understanding that many of
by ken hanly
Actually I dont think that the Pinto Case was one of a straightforward
cost-benefit analysis and didn't even include matters such as the cost of
lawsuits per se except perhaps indirectly since it included the cost of
human lives and of injuries. The human life values were themselves
Regarding the Pinto, cost/benefit analysis, etc., what exactly is the issue? I mean,
we know with certainty that a certain number of people are going to die each year from
auto accidents. We also know that if we reduced the speed limit to 5 m.p.h. required
all passengers to wear helmets,
, August 10, 2004 12:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Economics and law
Regarding the Pinto, cost/benefit analysis, etc., what exactly is the
issue? I mean, we know with certainty that a certain number of people
are going to die each year from auto accidents. We also know that if we
I think the thing with the Pinto is that Ford concluded that it would cost
them less to pay for wrongful death suits than to put something in the
Pintos that would stop them from exploding in rear end collisions. I
suppose this is the issue in dispute, but the greater cost of the part to
prevent
CHARLES BROWN WROTE:
...Myself, I think the benefit of reducing the speed limit substantially (
maybe not to 5 miles per hour), and more safety features of the type you
mention would be worth it in the lives and injuries saved...
The French have reduced highway deaths by more than 25% over
the
" David, the problem with the Pinto is that the government does notadequately regulate safety -- not even to the extent of making relevantinformation available -- so the regulation is left to the lawsuits -- avery inefficient way of doing things.
Doesn't Richard Epstein (the Chicago LE extremist
my
understanding of the whole thing is that the popular revulsion to Ford in the
Pinto case was basically Kantian; they didn't consider the people's deaths as a
"cost" in themselves, but only in as much as some proportion of the deaths would
probably give rise to lawsuits which would affect
David, the problem with the Pinto is that the government does not adequately regulate safety -- not even to the extent of making relevant information available -- so the regulation is left to the lawsuits -- a very inefficient way of doing things.
A few bucks for a protective gasket would not
Michael Perelman writes:
David, the problem with the Pinto is that the government does not
adequately regulate safety -- not even to the extent of making relevant
information available -- so the regulation is left to the lawsuits -- a
very inefficient way of doing things.
A few bucks for a
Charles Brown writes:
Myself, I think the benefit of reducing the speed limit substantially (
maybe not to 5 miles per hour), and more safety features of the type you
mention would be worth it in the lives and injuries saved, and the cost
would not be astronomical given what would be saved.
Charles wrote:
I think you are right that the problem wouldn't just go
away with socialism. There might , in general, in
socialism be more focus on some safety issues when the
decision would not depend upon how the safer engineering
impacted an individual corporation's bottomline. I can
see a
David writes:
I don't have a strong opinion on whether regulation should be
done by legislation or litigation -- it seems like a
peripheral issue.
I think that is a HUGE issue, not peripheral. But that's for another
thread and another day.
[...] safety is not an absolute value that takes
Kenneth Campbell writes:
[...] safety is not an absolute value that takes
precedence overy everything else. That is evidenced
by how people actually live their lives, and that
fact must be taken into consideration when determining
appropriate rules.
This is the heart of it.
To use your
David wrote:
Conceptually, you are right back where you are
today, where the poor can buy a used Pinto.
David Shemano
My parents were not poor... they were working class... they did work to
make ends meet. Your mobile poverty metre is a tad chintzy.
To assume that they might have to buy a car
Kenneth Campbell rides to the rescue of Charles Brown:
Why do you assume such facts for a socialist society?
Note that Charles uses his language with purpose. There do not seem to
be a lot of wasted words. There is the statement and for a long time
in that last sentence -- and it means
David wrote:
Any economy in a country whose name had or has the words
People's, Socialist or Sweden in it.
I like Sweden. You gotta problem with that, punk?
Ken.
--
I like Sweden. You gotta problem with that, punk?
-- Me in this thread
CB: Another infamous case of this was the exploding Pinto of Ford.
Thanks, CB. That was the 70s. May not apply to the original post I made,
in the time frame... but same principle.
Regardless... The notion that lives have worth based upon economic
evaluation is hated amongst normal working North
I've mentioned to friends I've known before law studies the plethora of
suits involving electric space heaters -- apparently a sort of a
chew-toy for tort lawyers.
There is an implied (depends how you read it) acceptable death rates
formula in tort. That Learned Hand Formula? Anyone read about
by Kenneth Campbell
-clip-
Calculate the number of deaths resulting from, say, a space heater (P)
and multiply that by the average out of court settlement (P). If those
estimated losses from defective products are less than the cost of
removing those deaths through product improvement (B), then
76 matches
Mail list logo
