[EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/18/04 12:25 AM
The Nader campaign was not the first such opportunity in the 20th
century.
Farmer-Labor Party and Robert La Follette's third party
bid in 1924.
Louis Proyect
farmer-labor's origins were in farm protests of non-partisan league
(first such
org was in north
At 10:46 PM -0500 3/17/04, Julio Huato wrote:
Today in the U.S., continual agitation of the sort described by Marx
can and must be conducted (not only but also) within the DP.
Not cost-effective. It costs a left-wing candidate more to run in
the Democratic presidential caucuses and primaries than
(Cf. In 1996, Nader opted to cap his campaign expenditures at
$5,000 and ended up with 581,000 votes. Nader's DPV: $0.01, says
Norman Solomon in News That Still Goes Unreported: 'Dollars Per
Vote' at http://www.fair.org/media-beat/980604.html -- our
Consumer Advocate sure knows how to get his
Thanks for helping to make concrete how CP'ers approach these questions.
There are class differences between Social Democratic Parties on one hand
and the Democratic Party in the USA. Lenin advocated a united front between
the Communists and the Social Democrats on a class basis. The Democratic
Joel Wendland wrote:
The social democratic parties
Lenin advocated unity with also were rooted in slavery and imperialism. I'm
not sure why you'd choose to try to make a distinction on this point between
them and our Democrats.
The social democratic parties you are referring to were part of the
ertugrul ahmet tonak wrote:
as usual, this commentary of Mage makes so much sense to me.
I guess it's especially appealing if you like clever sobriquets like
Ubu, Bushits, and Dumbocrats.
It's very nice that Ralph would like to repeal Taft-Hartley. Leaving
aside his history of hostility to unions
Shane Mage wrote:
Marvin Gandall writes:
...bourgeois-dominated but worker-based
parties like the Democratic party in the US...
If Marvin thinks the Dumbocrats are worker-based
they're most welcome to his support.
I'm not speaking here of the mass of the
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
It costs a left-wing candidate more to run in the Democratic presidential
caucuses and primaries than to run as a Green candidate in the general
election. Howard Dean spent over $40 million, did not win a single
primary, and got forced out on February 18, 2004 [etc.]
I
Louis Proyect wrote: I have a feeling that the same people who are urging a
vote for Kerry today will be urging the same policies in the future when
workers are occupying factories and calling for a general strike. You don't
switch brands from Menshevism to Bolshevism when the time is ripe.
Marvin Gandall:
The eczema remark is unnecessary. It's also wrong. The Bolsheviks wouldn't
have acquired their majority in the Soviets and seized state power without
the wholesale defection to their side of the mass of Menshevik workers and
some important intellectuals. This wasn't unique to
Louis Proyect wrote:
In a Nov. 9, 1912, article on the U.S. elections Lenin wrote, This
so-called bipartisan system prevailing in America and Britain has been one
of the most powerful means of preventing the rise of an independent
working-class, i.e., genuinely socialist, party.
It is interesting
Could someone explain what Ralph Nader's candidacy has to do with the
development of a socialist party in the U.S.? I could swear he was a
petit bourgeois who believed in the beauties of small business and
competition.
Doug
criterion you have in mind, Louis?
Marv G
- Original Message -
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Historical accuracy
Could someone explain what Ralph Nader's candidacy has to do with the
development
Louis Proyect cites Marx:
Where the working class is not yet far enough advanced in its organization
to undertake a decisive campaign against the collective power, i.e., the
political power, of the ruling classes, it must at any rate be trained for
this by continual agitation against this power
Joel Wendland completely misunderstands what Lou and Lenin
were talking about. Lenin *counterposes* the differences
between Lloyd George and Churchill (differences within
the executive committee of British Imperialism) to the
differences between Lloyd George and Henderson--the
differences between
Doug Henwood asks:
Could someone explain what Ralph Nader's candidacy has to do with the
development of a socialist party in the U.S.? I could swear he was a
petit bourgeois who believed in the beauties of small business and
competition.
Very simple. The central class issue in US politics for my
Joel Wendland wrote:
Sounds like Lenin had an ABC (anybody but Churchill) policy in 1920 that
roughly parallels current ABB arguments. Now if we compare this to the words
you quoted him saying in 1912, can we conclude that like Doug Ireland, et al
who refuse to support Nader this time, Lenin
What are the class criterion you have in mind, Louis?
Marv G
I'd say that until Goldman-Sachs starts giving money to the Green Party,
the class criteria are pretty clear.
Louis Proyect
Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
Louis Proyect wrote:
In a Nov. 9, 1912, article on the U.S. elections Lenin wrote, This
so-called bipartisan system prevailing in America and Britain has been one
of the most powerful means of preventing the rise of an independent
working-class, i.e., genuinely socialist, party.
It is interesting
and social democratic parties
elsewhere. But I'll wait for he and Shane to reply before taking this up.
Marv Gandall
- Original Message -
From: Shane Mage [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Historical Accuracy
Joel Wendland
: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Historical accuracy
What are the class criterion you have in mind, Louis?
Marv G
I'd say that until Goldman-Sachs starts giving money to the Green Party,
the class criteria are pretty clear.
Louis Proyect
Marxism list
So I would ask Louis on what basis he believes participation in and
encouragement for the Green Party is in accordance with what he calls class
criteria, while an orientation to another bourgeois party -- in this case,
the Democrats, by far the much larger of the two and the one supported by
the
I just returned from visiting my daughter getting to meet Mike Yates for a few
minutes. My head is spinning from this discussion.
On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 09:14:50PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote:
Could someone explain what Ralph Nader's candidacy has to do with the
development of a socialist
PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Historical Accuracy
Joel Wendland completely misunderstands what Lou and Lenin
were talking about. Lenin *counterposes* the differences
between Lloyd George and Churchill (differences within
the executive committee of British
as usual, this commentary of Mage makes so much sense to me.
ahmet tonak
Shane Mage wrote:
Doug Henwood asks:
Could someone explain what Ralph Nader's candidacy has to do with the
development of a socialist party in the U.S.? I could swear he was a
petit bourgeois who believed in the beauties
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