Since I have been actively involved in this issue (testimony before Senate Judiciary Committe, House Dems' opposition press conference, dozens of radio call-in programs [esp. urban minority stations], aggressive oped which received a response from the White House's National Economic Council
Yoshie:
That's no reason to give up, unless you agree with Brad, Nathan,
etc., which you don't.
Give up on what? If you'll recall from the time you were on the Marxism
list, Jose Perez explained that Marx and Engels were not always involved in
party-building. Sometimes, especially during an ebb
Lou says:
Marx and Engels were not always involved in
party-building. Sometimes, especially during an ebb in the class struggle,
they would concentrate on theorizing about the state of the movement and
what to do next.
Theorizing is absolutely important, but given the drift of the
comments on
Yoshie:
Theorizing is absolutely important, but given the drift of the
comments on American workers in some recent PEN-l posts, I'm afraid
that some Marxists are often tempted to *theorize* American workers'
revolutionary potential *out of the political window* -- unless the
Second Coming of
- Original Message -
From: "Yoshie Furuhashi" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Meanwhile, we work on reforms while getting out a
revolutionary message at the same time. Otherwise, we end up being
not so different from Brad, Nathan, other supporters of the
Democratic Party, except in our self image.
Barkley wrote:
... nobody should be under any illusions whatsoever. The Bush
administration is turning out to be far far worse than anybody forecast
and certainly far worse than a Gore administration would have been. And it
will negatively impact many people in the rest
of the world, I am
-
From: "Jim Devine" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 12:13 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9528] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
Barkley wrote:
... nobody should be under any illusions whatsoever. The Bush
administration is turning out to be far fa
6, 2001 11:25 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:9524] Re: Socialism American Workers (was Re: ergonomics,
etc.)
- Original Message -
From: "Yoshie Furuhashi" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Meanwhile, we work on reforms while getting out a
revolutionary message at the same time. Otherwise, we
- Original Message -
From: "J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathan,
I've just been calling for forgetting about 2000.
But, just for the record, was it not the case that the
CPUSA actually supported voting for Gore?
Barkley Rosser
As Doug notes, essentially yes.
Even
As Doug notes, essentially yes.
Even among contemporary explicit Communists, the assertion that no real
socialist supports the Dems is almost definitionally a sectarian position -
which of course means that for all Lou calls for non-sectarianism, he
continues to promote it.
I believe you have
even China, not to mention lots of other places.
Barkley Rosser
- Original Message -
From: "Doug Henwood" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9546] Re: Re: Re: Socialism American Workers (was Re:
ergonomics, etc.)
J. Barkl
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
As Doug notes, essentially yes.
Even among contemporary explicit Communists, the assertion that no real
socialist supports the Dems is almost definitionally a sectarian position -
which of course means that for all Lou calls
Debating who is and is not sectarian is absolutely unproductive. I would like
to hear more about the 1982 downturn compared to today. Remember how Volcker
was able to turn it around by merely loosening the monetary spigot. Will
Greenspan's rate cuts cause a turnaround in six months. What
At 12:45 PM 3/26/01 -0500, you wrote:
They could overdo it. But, most people do not
even know what they are doing. It is a successful
stealth campaign so far.
yeah, but I'm trying to intuit future trends.
As for North Korea, they are probably right that
the DPRK will not outright
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Perelman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debating who is and is not sectarian is absolutely unproductive. I would
like
to hear more about the 1982 downturn compared to today. Remember how
Volcker
was able to turn it around by merely loosening the monetary
CTED]
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 5:25 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9558] Re: Re: Socialism American Workers (was Re:
ergonomics, etc.)
Debating who is and is not sectarian is absolutely unproductive. I would
like
to hear more about the 1982 downturn compared to today. Remember how
Volcker
was ab
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
At 12:45 PM 3/26/01 -0500, you wrote:
They could overdo it. But, most people do not
even know what they are doing. It is a successful
stealth campaign so far.
yeah, but I'm trying to intuit future trends.
As for North Korea, they are prob
nt: Monday, March 26, 2001 6:04 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9570] Re: Re: Re: Re: Socialism American Workers (was Re:
ergonomics, etc.)
By all means, organize the left. I just don't think that will make much
progress organizing on an e-mail list.
Nathan Newman wrote:
Michael, seriously,
Nathan, while I disagree with your political strategy, your political work
was the key factor in stopping the California State University system from
giving away its high-tech infrastructure. Moreover, nobody should insult
you for your politics on this list.
For the life of me, I cannot figure
By all means, organize the left. I just don't think that will make much
progress organizing on an e-mail list.
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Um, Seattle.
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Perelman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Nathan, while I disagree with your political strategy, your political work
-was the key factor in stopping the California State University system from
-giving away its high-tech infrastructure. Moreover, nobody should
- Original Message -
From: "Doug Henwood" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathan Newman wrote:
A lot of people rightly condemned the Dems in the Senate who rolled over on
the Bankruptcy Bill, but where was the discussion on designing the best
counter-propaganda against the credit card industry?
I mainly agree with you and not Doug on this, and anyway fact sheets and
bulletins and letter writing campaigns are what we have just now. We really
can do something to slow the juggernaut, if only we will. How about this, it
isn't much, but it's a bit. Nathan and I and others who track
The difference between discussing the issues and debating sectarianism is
that I hope that we would learn something from the former. I do not think
that the prospects of learning from debating the second are very high.
I do not think that we will be able to predict the future, but I think
that
What evidence is there that Nader voters were in fact potential Gore voters?
That is, is there any data to show that had Nader not been an option, the
people who voted for him would have voted for Gore? Surely that is the
correct question to ask. Nader voters may simply have stayed at home
Hey, Mark, don't bother. The Demicans can't face up to the fact that they
lost because they ran like Repugs, as well as running a generally sorry,
suckass candidate who blew what should have been a sure thing, and they are
deeply resentful because they think they own the votes of the left.
-
From: "Mark Laffey" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 5:09 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:9436] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
What evidence is there that Nader voters were in fact potential Gore voters?
That is, is there any data to show that had Nade
But the idea that the left cannot be taken for granted is profoundly
frightening to Dems.
And profoundly heart-gladdening for Republicans.
The idea that we might be able to exercise real power is absolutely
terrifying. If we are to put together a winning party, it means
taking votes from
National exit polls said that half of Nader voters would have supported Vice
President Al Gore had Nader not been on the ticket. Thirty percent said they
would not have voted and the rest would have gone for Bush.
Oh, you are bringing in *facts*. You do understand that that isn't
allowed here?
Nathan wrote:
...It just does not cut it to argue that Nader voters did not help elect
Bush
We could only have "helped elect" Bush if Bush had in fact been elected.
Which, of course, was the opposite of what happened...
National exit polls said that half of Nader voters would have
- Original Message -
From: "Shane Mage" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National exit polls said that half of Nader voters would have supported
VicePresident Al Gore had Nader not been on the ticket. Thirty percent
said they
would not have voted and the rest would have gone for Bush.
In Florida, that
Mark Laffey wrote:
What evidence is there that Nader voters were in fact potential Gore voters?
That is, is there any data to show that had Nader not been an option, the
people who voted for him would have voted for Gore? Surely that is the
correct question to ask. Nader voters may simply have
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Doug Henwood wrote:
Mark Laffey wrote:
What evidence is there that Nader voters were in fact potential Gore voters?
That is, is there any data to show that had Nader not been an option, the
people who voted for him would have voted for Gore? Surely that is the
Nathan Newman wrote:
For those who will suffer in pain from RSI injuries without compensation,
those losses will be very real.
Good thing Clinton set right into addressing that problem from his
first day in office, until waiting til the last minute, when he was
distracted by the urgent matter
There have been a number of threads recently on Pen-l which
reflect the super-nationalist navel gazing of Americans.
First, I would ask Brad De Long. If he had a ballot for president
that included Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Ramsey McDonald,
who would he vote for?
Second, I would
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope that the
American working class doesn't get hammered into poverty,
disease and death since they have been supporting governments
and policies that have been prescribing such medicine for the rest
of the world.
While
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope that the
American working class doesn't get hammered into poverty,
disease and death since they have been supporting governments
and policies that have been prescribing such medicine for the rest
of the world.
The more I
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope that the
American working class doesn't get hammered into poverty,
disease and death since they have been supporting governments
and policies that have been prescribing such medicine for the rest
of the world.
A couple of
. Kyoto, etc. the US record
is simply disgusting.
Paul Phillips
Date sent: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:53:12 -0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:9457] Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
Send reply
-0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:9456] Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope
Doug writes,
A couple of more questions occurred to me while I was in the shower.
Do the 32 million members of the U.S. working class who live in
officially defined poverty deserve their fate? Or worse? How about
the 20-30 million more who live close to poverty? How about the - I'm
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yea Doug, a typical American reply. It ain't us, it is all you
foreigners.
Hold it, now where did Doug say that? Not even close.
- Original Message -
From: "Doug Henwood" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathan Newman wrote:
For those who will suffer in pain from RSI injuries without compensation,
those losses will be very real.
-Good thing Clinton set right into addressing that problem from his
-first day in office, until
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:9456] Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
Send reply to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope that the
American
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:44:52 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So Canadians are responsible for this? Get a life Doug. What the
collapse of the American economy will do is discredit American
imperialism through the rest of the world thereby improving the long
run prospects of the rest of the
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:40:12 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope that the
American working class doesn't get hammered into poverty,
disease and death since they have been supporting governments
and policies that have been prescribing such medicine for
-L:9465] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
Yes, but in your reply to Doug's transparently sarcastic remark on
Candaian innocence, you seem to be taking Doug as an ardent defender of US
foreign policy...
Doug's displeasure, if I'm reading it correctly, is with the idea that
wishing any
We picked up our daughter yesterday. I am just now of wading through a
ton of e-mail.
The tone of this thread is pretty bad. Too much noise relative to the
signal. It's too late to point fingers at its origins.
So for now let us just stop it. No more recriminations.
Canada is bad. Nader
We picked up our daughter yesterday. I am just now of wading through a
ton of e-mail.
The tone of this thread is pretty bad. Too much noise relative to the
signal. It's too late to point fingers at its origins.
So for now let us just stop it. No more recriminations.
Canada is bad. Nader
At 3:18 PM -0600 3/25/01, Ken Hanly wrote:
As long as capitalism is able to provide a degree of prosperity for
a significant part of the working class there is almost no hope of a
left alternative to the left of Nathan and/or Brad. The valid point
in Paul's remarks is that as long as the the
Brad, that 3 percent of the vote was enough to sink the Gore campaign is a
sad commentary on what the Democrats had to offer. With regard to voting for
Nader at no cost to Gore, Nader voters in California certainly had no effect
and knew it before hand.
With regard to the dimes worth of
Brad, that 3 percent of the vote was enough to sink the Gore campaign is a sad
commentary on what the Democrats had to offer. With regard to voting for Nader at no
cost
to Gore, Nader voters in California certainly had no effect and knew it before hand.
right! It's like those Democrats who
Given that Brad has a cogent critique that he is willing to explain and
unpack in response to challenges, this is yet another abuse of
moderating authority. I have no idea what this list is for any more,
save idle chat among the like-minded. Every time a discussion gets into
any critical depth,
Yoshie:
American workers -- even in the midst of neoliberal capitalism's best
boom times ever -- were not as comfortable as many PEN-l posters
imagine them to be (and now the boom is practically over -- we only
wonder how bad how long the coming recession will be). Therefore,
I conclude
Lou says:
Yoshie:
American workers -- even in the midst of neoliberal capitalism's best
boom times ever -- were not as comfortable as many PEN-l posters
imagine them to be (and now the boom is practically over -- we only
wonder how bad how long the coming recession will be). Therefore,
I
I agree that Brad has a cogent critique. The problem is that he has
repeated it any number of times. I myself just made the mistake of
responding. I was wrong.
I don't mind disagreement all. I probably don't agree with one percent of
what David S. believes, except -- from what I infer from
Brad DeLong wrote:
Yet another blessing we have received from Ralph Nader...
No, from Al Gore. If as many self-identified Democrats had voted for
Gore as self-identified Republicans voted for Bush, W would still be
governor of Texas.
Doug
And Nader was in their pitching, telling
And Nader was in their pitching, telling self-identified Democrats
not to vote for Gore...
Brad DeLong
As was 'Dubya; welcome to the world of free speech.
Ian
Except that Dubya is opposed to ergonomic rules. Nader is supposed to
like them--but he likes being a publicity
Except that Dubya is opposed to ergonomic rules. Nader is supposed to
like them--but he likes being a publicity hound more...
Brad DeLong
*
Apologies, Michael.
Brad, grow up. Your Ivy League edumakation is showing.
Ian
Brad DeLong wrote:
Yet another blessing we have received from Ralph Nader...
No, from Al Gore. If as many self-identified Democrats had voted for
Gore as self-identified Republicans voted for Bush, W would still be
governor of Texas.
Doug
And Nader was in their pitching, telling
And Nader was in their pitching, telling self-identified Democrats
not to vote for Gore...
Brad DeLong
As was 'Dubya; welcome to the world of free speech.
Ian
Brad DeLong wrote:
Yet another blessing we have received from Ralph Nader...
No, from Al Gore. If as many self-identified Democrats had voted for
Gore as self-identified Republicans voted for Bush, W would still be
governor of Texas.
Doug
And Nader was in their pitching, telling
Shane Mage wrote:
Is it Nader's fault that the Gore-Clinton administration delayed,
obviously with intention, the promulgation of regulations vitally
important to working people, until their concessionary though fraudulent
successor could undo them with a stroke of the pen?
no. Further, it's
George Dubya, the titular head of the US state, recently got
headlines by okaying the veto by Congress of Clinton-era ergonomic
rules in the workplace. I wonder: isn't part of this reversal
Clinton's fault? After all, Big Bill left this proposal to the end
of his years, so that its actual
Brad DeLong wrote:
Yet another blessing we have received from Ralph Nader...
No, from Al Gore. If as many self-identified Democrats had voted for
Gore as self-identified Republicans voted for Bush, W would still be
governor of Texas.
Doug
I wrote:
George Dubya, the titular head of the US state, recently got headlines by
okaying the veto by Congress of Clinton-era ergonomic rules in the
workplace. I wonder: isn't part of this reversal Clinton's fault? After
all, Big Bill left this proposal to the end of his years, so that its
though I don't want to get into this Nader/Gore
debate, it must be said that Clinton handled these
executive orders in his characteristically cute
and opportunistic way. He waited until the
election was over, so as not to upset donors,
then rushed the ergonomics and forest protection
rules
The regs were initially proposed by the Repugs, under Eliz Dole's
Secretaryship at Labor, during the reign of Bush I. --jks
though I don't want to get into this Nader/Gore
debate, it must be said that Clinton handled these
executive orders in his characteristically cute
and opportunistic way.
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