Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Florian Weimer wrote: > The TCP checksum is too weak to be practical. Every now an then, I > see data transfers where the checksum is valid, but the content > contains bit flips. Well of course, it's only a 16-bit checksum. 64k packets isn't very many so if you're not counting checksum failures it won't take very long before one gets through. The purpose of the checksum is to notify you that you have a problem, not to block bad packets from getting through. > Anything that flips bits randomly at intervals > which are multiples of 16 bits is quite likely to pass through > checksum detection. I'm not sure about this -- greg -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On 18.04.2013, at 20:02, Ants Aasma wrote: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Ants Aasma wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Florian Pflug wrote: >>> So either the CRC32-C polynomial isn't irreducible, or there something >>> fishy going on. Could there be a bug in your CRC implementation? Maybe >>> a mixup between big and little endian, or something like that? >> >> I'm suspecting an implementation bug myself. I already checked the >> test harness and that was all sane, compiler hadn't taken any >> unforgivable liberties there. I will crosscheck the output with other >> implementations to verify that the checksum is implemented correctly. > > Looks like the implementation is correct. I cross-referenced it > against a bitwise algorithm for crc32 with the castagnoli polynomial. > This also rules out any endianness issues as the bitwise variant > consumes input byte at a time. > > What ever it is, it is something specific to PostgreSQL page layout. > If I use /dev/urandom as the source the issue disappears. So much for > CRC32 being proven good. Weird. Is the code of your test harness available publicly, or could you post it? I'd like to look into this... best regard, Florian Pflug -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] Recovery target 'immediate'
I just found out that if you use continuous archiving and online backups, it's surprisingly difficult to restore a backup, without replaying any more WAL than necessary. If you don't set a recovery target, PostgreSQL will recover all the WAL it finds. You can set recovery target time to a point immediately after the end-of-backup record, but that's tricky. You have to somehow find out the exact time when the backup ended, and set it to that. But if you set it any too early, recovery will abort with "requested recovery stop point is before consistent recovery point" error. And that's not quite precise anyway; not all record types carry timestamps, so you will always replay a few extra records until the first timestamped record comes along. Setting recovery_target_xid is similarly difficult. If you were well prepared, you created a named recovery point with pg_create_restore_point() immediately after the backup ended, and you can use that, but that requires forethought. It seems that we're missing a setting, something like recovery_target = 'immediate', which would mean "stop as soon as consistency is reached". Or am I missing some trick? - Heikki -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Ants Aasma wrote: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Florian Pflug wrote: >> So either the CRC32-C polynomial isn't irreducible, or there something >> fishy going on. Could there be a bug in your CRC implementation? Maybe >> a mixup between big and little endian, or something like that? > > I'm suspecting an implementation bug myself. I already checked the > test harness and that was all sane, compiler hadn't taken any > unforgivable liberties there. I will crosscheck the output with other > implementations to verify that the checksum is implemented correctly. Looks like the implementation is correct. I cross-referenced it against a bitwise algorithm for crc32 with the castagnoli polynomial. This also rules out any endianness issues as the bitwise variant consumes input byte at a time. What ever it is, it is something specific to PostgreSQL page layout. If I use /dev/urandom as the source the issue disappears. So much for CRC32 being proven good. Regards, Ants Aasma -- Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH Gröhrmühlgasse 26 A-2700 Wiener Neustadt Web: http://www.postgresql-support.de -- Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH Gröhrmühlgasse 26 A-2700 Wiener Neustadt Web: http://www.postgresql-support.de -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Thu, 2013-04-18 at 19:05 +0200, Florian Pflug wrote: > On Apr18, 2013, at 19:04 , Jeff Davis wrote: > > On Wed, 2013-04-17 at 20:21 -0400, Greg Smith wrote: > >> -Original checksum feature used Fletcher checksums. Its main problems, > >> to quote wikipedia, include that it "cannot distinguish between blocks > >> of all 0 bits and blocks of all 1 bits". > > > > That is fairly easy to fix by using a different modulus: 251 vs 255. > > At the expense of a drastic performance hit though, no? Modulus operations > aren't exactly cheap. Modulo is only necessary when there's a possibility of overflow, or at the very end of the calculation. If we accumulate 32-bit integers into 64-bit sums, then it turns out that it can't overflow given the largest input we support (32K page). 32K page = 8192 32-bit integers 1*(2^32-1) + 2*(2^32-1) + 3*(2^32-1) ... 8192*(2^32-1) = (2^32-1) * (8192^2 - 8192)/2 = 144097595856261120 ( < 2^64-1 ) So, we only need to do the modulo at the end. Regards, Jeff Davis -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Florian Pflug wrote: > So either the CRC32-C polynomial isn't irreducible, or there something > fishy going on. Could there be a bug in your CRC implementation? Maybe > a mixup between big and little endian, or something like that? I'm suspecting an implementation bug myself. I already checked the test harness and that was all sane, compiler hadn't taken any unforgivable liberties there. I will crosscheck the output with other implementations to verify that the checksum is implemented correctly. Regards, Ants Aasma -- Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH Gröhrmühlgasse 26 A-2700 Wiener Neustadt Web: http://www.postgresql-support.de -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Apr18, 2013, at 18:48 , Ants Aasma wrote: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Ants Aasma wrote: >> I'll generate an avalanche diagram for CRC32C too, but it will take a >> while even if I use a smaller dataset. > > Well that was useless... In CRC flipping each bit in the input flips > preset pattern of bits in the output regardless of the actual data on > the page. Some stats for CRC32C - input bits affect 28344 different > bit combinations. Count of bits by number of duplicated bitpatterns: Yup, CRC is linear too. CRC is essentially long division for polynomials, i.e. you interpret the N input bits as the coefficients of a (large) polynomial of degree (N-1), and divide by the CRC polynomial. The remainder is the checksum, and consists of B bits where B is the degree of the CRC polynomial. (Polynomial here means polynomial over GF(2), i.e. over a field with only two values 0 and 1) I'm currently trying to see if one can easily explain the partial-write behaviour from that. Having lots of zeros at the end end corresponds to an input polynomial of the form p(x) * x^l where l is the number of zero bits. The CRC (q(x) is the CRC polynomial) is p(x) * x^l mod q(x) = (p(x) mod q(x)) * (x^l mod q(x)) mod q(x) That still doesn't explain it, though - the result *should* simply be the checksum of p(x), scrambled a bit by the multiplication with (x^l mod q(x)). But if q(x) is irreducible, that scrambling is invertible (as multiplication module some irreducible element always is), and thus shouldn't matter much. So either the CRC32-C polynomial isn't irreducible, or there something fishy going on. Could there be a bug in your CRC implementation? Maybe a mixup between big and little endian, or something like that? The third possibility is that I've overlooking something, of course ;-) Will think more about this tomorrow if time permits best regards, Florian Pflug -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Florian Pflug wrote: > On Apr18, 2013, at 19:04 , Jeff Davis wrote: >> On Wed, 2013-04-17 at 20:21 -0400, Greg Smith wrote: >>> -Original checksum feature used Fletcher checksums. Its main problems, >>> to quote wikipedia, include that it "cannot distinguish between blocks >>> of all 0 bits and blocks of all 1 bits". >> >> That is fairly easy to fix by using a different modulus: 251 vs 255. > > At the expense of a drastic performance hit though, no? Modulus operations > aren't exactly cheap. The modulus can be done in the end. By using a modulus of 65521 the resulting checksum is called Adler-32. [1] However the quality of Fletcher-32/Adler-32 is strictly worse than even the first iteration of multiply-add based checksums proposed. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adler-32 Regards, Ants Aasma -- Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH Gröhrmühlgasse 26 A-2700 Wiener Neustadt Web: http://www.postgresql-support.de -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Apr18, 2013, at 19:04 , Jeff Davis wrote: > On Wed, 2013-04-17 at 20:21 -0400, Greg Smith wrote: >> -Original checksum feature used Fletcher checksums. Its main problems, >> to quote wikipedia, include that it "cannot distinguish between blocks >> of all 0 bits and blocks of all 1 bits". > > That is fairly easy to fix by using a different modulus: 251 vs 255. At the expense of a drastic performance hit though, no? Modulus operations aren't exactly cheap. best regards, Florian Pflug -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
* Greg Smith: > The TCP/IP checksum spec is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc793 ; > its error detection limitations are described at > http://www.noahdavids.org/self_published/CRC_and_checksum.html ; and a > good article about optimizing its code is at > http://www.locklessinc.com/articles/tcp_checksum/ I'll take a longer > look at whether it's an improvement on the Fletcher-16 used by the > current patch. The TCP checksum is too weak to be practical. Every now an then, I see data transfers where the checksum is valid, but the content contains bit flips. Anything that flips bits randomly at intervals which are multiples of 16 bits is quite likely to pass through checksum detection. In practice, TCP relies on checksumming on the sub-IP layers. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Wed, 2013-04-17 at 20:21 -0400, Greg Smith wrote: > -Original checksum feature used Fletcher checksums. Its main problems, > to quote wikipedia, include that it "cannot distinguish between blocks > of all 0 bits and blocks of all 1 bits". That is fairly easy to fix by using a different modulus: 251 vs 255. Regards, Jeff Davis -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Ants Aasma wrote: > I'll generate an avalanche diagram for CRC32C too, but it will take a > while even if I use a smaller dataset. Well that was useless... In CRC flipping each bit in the input flips preset pattern of bits in the output regardless of the actual data on the page. Some stats for CRC32C - input bits affect 28344 different bit combinations. Count of bits by number of duplicated bitpatterns: [(1, 8868), (2, 17722), (3, 17775), (4, 12048), (5, 5725), (6, 2268), (7, 875), (8, 184), (9, 45), (10, 10), (16, 16)] Count of bit positions by number of bit-positions affected: [(0, 16), (1, 25), (3, 1185), (5, 8487), (7, 22970), (9, 22913), (11, 8790), (13, 1119), (15, 31)] Map of number of bit position affected, with 8 being black and 0 or 16 being red attached. I'm not sure if the issues with partial writes are somehow related to this. Regards, Ants Aasma -- Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH Gröhrmühlgasse 26 A-2700 Wiener Neustadt Web: http://www.postgresql-support.de <> -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] (auto)vacuum truncate exclusive lock
On 4/18/2013 11:44 AM, Jan Wieck wrote: Yes, that was the rationale behind it combined with "don't change function call sequences and more" all over the place. function call signatures -- Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security. -- Benjamin Franklin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] (auto)vacuum truncate exclusive lock
On 4/12/2013 2:08 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Tom Lane escribió: Are you saying you intend to revert that whole concept? That'd be okay with me, I think. Otherwise we need some thought about how to inform the stats collector what's really happening. Maybe what we need is to consider table truncation as a separate activity from vacuuming. Then autovacuum could invoke it without having to do a full-blown vacuum. For this to work, I guess we would like to separately store the status of the back-scan in pgstat somehow (I think a boolean flag suffices: "were we able to truncate all pages that appeared to be empty?") Should have read the entire thread before responding :) Jan -- Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security. -- Benjamin Franklin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] (auto)vacuum truncate exclusive lock
On 4/12/2013 1:57 PM, Tom Lane wrote: Kevin Grittner writes: Tom Lane wrote: I think that the minimum appropriate fix here is to revert the hunk I quoted, ie take out the suppression of stats reporting and analysis. I'm not sure I understand -- are you proposing that is all we do for both the VACUUM command and autovacuum? No, I said that was the minimum fix. Looking again at the patch, I note this comment: /* +* We failed to establish the lock in the specified number of +* retries. This means we give up truncating. Suppress the +* ANALYZE step. Doing an ANALYZE at this point will reset the +* dead_tuple_count in the stats collector, so we will not get +* called by the autovacuum launcher again to do the truncate. +*/ and I suppose the rationale for suppressing the stats report was this same idea of lying to the stats collector in order to encourage a new vacuum attempt to happen right away. Now I'm not sure that that's a good idea at all --- what's the reasoning for thinking the table will be any less hot in thirty seconds? But if it is reasonable, we need a redesign of the reporting messages, not just a hack to not tell the stats collector what we did. Yes, that was the rationale behind it combined with "don't change function call sequences and more" all over the place. The proper solution would eventually be to add a block number to the stats held by the stats collector, which preserves the information about the last filled block of the table. The decouple the truncate from vacuum/autovacuum. vacuum/autovacuum will set that block number when they detect the trailing free space. The analyze step can happen just as usual and reset stats, which doesn't reset that block number. The autovacuum launcher goes through its normal logic for launching autovac or autoanalyze. If it doesn't find any of those to do but the last-used-block is set, it launches the separate lazy truncate step. This explicitly moves the truncate, which inherently requires the exclusive lock and therefore is undesirable even in a manual vacuum, into the background. Jan -- Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security. -- Benjamin Franklin -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] event trigger API documentation?
Dimitri Fontaine escribió: > Alvaro Herrera writes: > > You can be as much silent as you want in marketing materials (though > > maybe Berkus will disagree with you about being silent there), but it is > > not admissible to be silent in the documentation or pretend the feature > > is not there. Whatever got committed, however small, needs to be > > properly documented. > > Definitely, yes. > > The only questions in this thread are: > > - only docs or docs + contrib example? > > Tom said it's too late for the contrib example. So there's already an answer to this question, isn't there. > - what about support for PLs other than C and PLpgSQL? > > It used to be part of the patch, and I don't understand well enough > the development calendar to guess if I'm supposed to extract that > from earlier patch or if that's too late for 9.3. I'm not sure > what Peter's idea are wrt to the calendar here. It seems far too late for more code at this stage. IMO anyway. -- Álvaro Herrerahttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] event trigger API documentation?
Peter Eisentraut writes: > Without going into too many details (because I don't have them yet), I > was thinking about triggering an external test suite whenever there is a > schema change in the database. So if all you want to know about is that something did change in the schema to trigger your action, yes you can do it. I would go as far as to propose that you consider registering an event in a PGQ queue at the time when the ddl event occurs, so that you can have your test suite run be triggers from the outside of the database at its leisure. If you want to stay within PostgreSQL offering proper, a NOTIFY would do, and you can do that in PLpgSQL too. Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] event trigger API documentation?
Alvaro Herrera writes: > You can be as much silent as you want in marketing materials (though > maybe Berkus will disagree with you about being silent there), but it is > not admissible to be silent in the documentation or pretend the feature > is not there. Whatever got committed, however small, needs to be > properly documented. Definitely, yes. The only questions in this thread are: - only docs or docs + contrib example? Tom said it's too late for the contrib example. - what about support for PLs other than C and PLpgSQL? It used to be part of the patch, and I don't understand well enough the development calendar to guess if I'm supposed to extract that from earlier patch or if that's too late for 9.3. I'm not sure what Peter's idea are wrt to the calendar here. Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] event trigger API documentation?
On 4/18/13 5:05 AM, Dimitri Fontaine wrote: > Peter Eisentraut writes: >> > Offhand, that seems about enough, but I'm just beginning to explore. > I'm interested into hearing about any such use case… Without going into too many details (because I don't have them yet), I was thinking about triggering an external test suite whenever there is a schema change in the database. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] event trigger API documentation?
Dimitri Fontaine escribió: > Peter Eisentraut writes: > > Offhand, that seems about enough, but I'm just beginning to explore. > > I'm interested into hearing about any such use case… > > > Chances are, event triggers will end up somewhere near the top of the > > release announcements, so we should have a consistent message about what > > to do with them and how to use them. If for now, we say, we only > > support writing them in PL/pgSQL, and here is how to do that, and here > > are some examples, that's fine. But currently, it's not quite clear. > > I would prefer that we're silent about them for another (couple of?) > release, You can be as much silent as you want in marketing materials (though maybe Berkus will disagree with you about being silent there), but it is not admissible to be silent in the documentation or pretend the feature is not there. Whatever got committed, however small, needs to be properly documented. -- Álvaro Herrerahttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 09:17:39AM +0100, Simon Riggs wrote: > On 17 April 2013 22:36, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > >> > I would like to know the answer of how an upgrade from checksum to > >> > no-checksum would behave so I can modify pg_upgrade to allow it. > >> > >> Why? 9.3 pg_upgrade certainly doesn't need it. When we get to 9.4, if > >> someone has checksums enabled and wants to disable it, why is pg_upgrade > >> the right time to do that? Wouldn't it make more sense to allow them to > >> do that at any time? > > > > Well, right now, pg_upgrade is the only way you could potentially turn > > off checksums. You are right that we might eventually want a command, > > but my point is that we currently have a limitation in pg_upgrade that > > might not be necessary. > > We don't currently have checksums, so pg_upgrade doesn't need to cope > with turning them off in 9.3 True, 9.2 doesn't have checksums, while 9.3 will. One point is that pg_upgrade could actually be used to turn off checksums for 9.3 to 9.3 upgrades if no tablespaces are used. > For 9.4, it might, but likely we've have a tool to turn them off > before then anyway. True. Would we want pg_upgrade to still enforce matching checksum modes for old and new servers at that point? Eventually we will have to decide that. -- Bruce Momjian http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + It's impossible for everything to be true. + -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 5:08 AM, Greg Smith wrote: > On 4/17/13 8:56 PM, Ants Aasma wrote: >> >> Nothing from the two points, but the CRC calculation algorithm can be >> switched out for slice-by-4 or slice-by-8 variant. Speed up was around >> factor of 4 if I remember correctly...I can provide you > >> with a patch of the generic version of any of the discussed algorithms >> within an hour, leaving plenty of time in beta or in 9.4 to >> accommodate the optimized versions. > > Can you nail down a solid, potential for commit slice-by-4 or slice-by-8 > patch then? You dropped into things like per-byte overhead to reach this > conclusion, which was fine to let the methods battle each other. Maybe I > missed it, but I didn't remember seeing an obvious full patch for this > implementation then come back up from that. With the schedule pressure this > needs to return to more database-level tests. Your concerns about the > committed feature being much slower then the original Fletcher one are > troubling, and we might as well do that showdown again now with the best of > the CRC implementations you've found. I meant any of fast ones is easy to nail down. The sped up slice-by-8 is somewhat slightly trickier to clean up. Especially if anyone expects it to accelerate WAL calculation, then it brings up a whole bunch of design questions on how to handle alignment issues. For performance testing what is attached should work fine, it would still need some cleanup. > It's fair that you're very concerned about (1), but I wouldn't give it 100% > odds of happening either. The user demand that's motivated me to work on > this will be happy with any of (1) through (3), and in two of them > optimizing the 16 bit checksums now turns out to be premature. Fair enough, although I'd like to point out the optimization is premature in the sense that the effort might go to waste. The checksum function is a self contained, easy to test and very low maintenance piece of code - not the usual premature optimization risk. Regards, Ants Aasma -- Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH Gröhrmühlgasse 26 A-2700 Wiener Neustadt Web: http://www.postgresql-support.de crc32c-sb8-checksum.v0.patch Description: Binary data -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Andres Freund wrote: > On 2013-04-17 18:16:36 -0700, Daniel Farina wrote: >> The original paper is often shorthanded "Castagnoli 93", but it exists >> in the IEEE's sphere of influence and is hard to find a copy of. >> Luckily, a pretty interesting survey paper discussing some of the >> issues was written by Koopman in 2002 and is available: >> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.11.8323 As a >> pedagolgical note, it's pretty interesting and accessible piece of >> writing (for me, as someone who knows little of error >> detection/correction) and explains some of the engineering reasons >> that provoke such exercises. > > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=231911&userType=inst > > There's also a koopman paper from 2004 thats interesting. Having read the 2002 paper more, it seems that the current CRC32 doesn't have a whole lot going for it: CRC32C pretty much cleans its clock across the board (I don't understand detected Hamming Distance that seem greater than the information content of the message, e.g. HD 14 with 8 bit messages as seen in CRC32C: that's where CRC32 can "win"). CRC32C looks, all in all, the most flexible, because detection of Hamming Distance 4 spans from 5244-131072 bits (the upper range of which is a full 16KiB!) and there is superior Hamming Distance detection on shorter messages up until the point where it seems like the Hamming Distance able to be detected is larger than the message size itself (e.g. HM 13 on an 8 bit message). I'm not sure if this is an error in my understanding, or what. Also, larger runs (16KB) are better served by CRC32C: even the probably-best contender I can see (0xD419CC15) drops to Hamming Distance 2-detection right after 65505 bits. CRC32C has the biggest range at HD4, although Koopman 0xBA0DC66 comes close, gaining superior Hamming distance detection for 178-16360 bits (the upper end of this rnage is short of 2KiB by 3 bytes). All in all, there is no reason I can see to keep CRC32 at all, vs CRC32C on the basis of error detection alone, so putting aside all the business about instruction set architecture, I think a software CRC32C in a vacuum can be seen as a robustness improvement. There may be polynomials that are not CRC32 or CRC32C that one might view as having slightly better tradeoffs as seen in Table 1 of Koopman 2002, but it's kind of a stretch: being able to handle 8KB and 16KB as seen in CRC32C at HD4 as seen in CRC32C is awfully compelling to me. Koopman 0xBA0DC66B can admirably reach HD6 on a much larger range, up to 16360 bytes, which is every so shy of 2KiB. Castagnoli 0xD419CC15 can, short of 8KB by 31 bits can detect HD 5. Corrections welcome on my interpretations of Tbl 1. -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] event trigger API documentation?
Peter Eisentraut writes: > Offhand, that seems about enough, but I'm just beginning to explore. I'm interested into hearing about any such use case… > Chances are, event triggers will end up somewhere near the top of the > release announcements, so we should have a consistent message about what > to do with them and how to use them. If for now, we say, we only > support writing them in PL/pgSQL, and here is how to do that, and here > are some examples, that's fine. But currently, it's not quite clear. I would prefer that we're silent about them for another (couple of?) release, because we didn't reach yet the feature set that I did consider the bare minimum. In my view 9.3 only has code infrastructure to prepare for the ability to implement Event Triggers later. That this infrastructure already allows you to do some things with it is like a proof of concept. > Surely you had some use cases in mind when you set out to implement > this. What were they, and where are we now in relation to them? I have mainly 4 use cases for them, and none of them are possible to implement in 9.3: - audit (separate log or audit tables for commited only actions) - ddl support for replications (trigger based, logical rep.) - ddl extensibility - apt-get for extensions without dynamically loaded module The extension items is an example of the more general "ddl extensibility" item. Don't worry about ever seeing a patch to core for implementing it, the whole Event Trigger and Extension Templates exercise is meant to allow for coding that kind of crazy ideas out of core. Regards, -- Dimitri Fontaine http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Enabling Checksums
On 17 April 2013 22:36, Bruce Momjian wrote: >> > I would like to know the answer of how an upgrade from checksum to >> > no-checksum would behave so I can modify pg_upgrade to allow it. >> >> Why? 9.3 pg_upgrade certainly doesn't need it. When we get to 9.4, if >> someone has checksums enabled and wants to disable it, why is pg_upgrade >> the right time to do that? Wouldn't it make more sense to allow them to >> do that at any time? > > Well, right now, pg_upgrade is the only way you could potentially turn > off checksums. You are right that we might eventually want a command, > but my point is that we currently have a limitation in pg_upgrade that > might not be necessary. We don't currently have checksums, so pg_upgrade doesn't need to cope with turning them off in 9.3 For 9.4, it might, but likely we've have a tool to turn them off before then anyway. -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
