Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro (was: Re: Fwd: Three weeks left until feature freeze)
Lukas, all: So what I am suggesting is that PostgreSQL.org should push people towards the monolithic distro. The docs should contain everything that is in the monolithic distro. At conference we should say the name of the monolithic distro etc. The issue I think you're ignoring is that maintaining such a distro and its build system for a reasonable number of platforms would require an enormous amount of work ... like, 3-4 full-time developers and at least a dozen part-time developers. Compare the staff requirements for Debian, Red Hat or SuSE. I can tell you from being the Bizgres admin for a few months that just trying to maintain/debug a build system that would do PostgreSQL + JasperReports + KETL + 4 optional modules on four platforms was easily 20-30 hours of work, *per release*. So this isn't something we can just vote into existance. Second with endorsing or certifying projects on pgFoundry and elsewhere, who has the time? To rate stuff as mature/not mature a committee of PostgreSQL people would have to be constantly reviewing projects, every single month, and probably getting into long political debates to boot. If we do less, a repeat of the libpq++/libpqxx mess is inevitable. It's very nice to throw these things out there and put them on the TODO list ... and if I had $100,000 in development money to throw at something, I might spend it that way ... but to propose them as *immediate* solutions to problems for 8.2 is fantasy. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Josh Berkus wrote: It's very nice to throw these things out there and put them on the TODO list ... and if I had $100,000 in development money to throw at something, I might spend it that way ... but to propose them as *immediate* solutions to problems for 8.2 is fantasy. Point taken. Obviously I was not suggesting this for 8.2 .. it was more a suggestion for the midterm. I never installed Bizgres or Mammoth PostgreSQL. Maybe however there could be some lobbying from PostgreSQL core to better pool the resources currently directed at these two forks (and other similar efforts). That being said, I am just a talker here that is hoping to instigate action by others and we all know talk is cheap. regards, Lukas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Peter Eisentraut wrote: Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: whereas PostgreSQL is continuously complaing that MySQL is inferior yet way more popular. Maybe MySQL's popularity is not even PostgreSQL's goal, but I am sure a bit more would be welcome. Does MySQL have a monolithic distribution? Well obviously MySQL is missing alot of functionality that you will not get in any version of MySQL though. However it comes with replication, fulltext indexes out of the box. They currently only have a single stored procedure language (partial SQL:2003 implementation). regards, Lukas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Lukas Smith wrote: Peter Eisentraut wrote: Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: whereas PostgreSQL is continuously complaing that MySQL is inferior yet way more popular. Maybe MySQL's popularity is not even PostgreSQL's goal, but I am sure a bit more would be welcome. Does MySQL have a monolithic distribution? Well obviously MySQL is missing alot of functionality that you will not get in any version of MySQL though. However it comes with replication, fulltext indexes out of the box. They currently only have a single stored procedure language (partial SQL:2003 implementation). Oh and they also ship a federated (AFAIK their dblink answer) along with several other storage engines for various specific tasks. regards, Lukas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Lukas Smith wrote: Lukas Smith wrote: Peter Eisentraut wrote: Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: whereas PostgreSQL is continuously complaing that MySQL is inferior yet way more popular. Maybe MySQL's popularity is not even PostgreSQL's goal, but I am sure a bit more would be welcome. Does MySQL have a monolithic distribution? Well obviously MySQL is missing alot of functionality that you will not get in any version of MySQL though. However it comes with replication, fulltext indexes out of the box. They currently only have a single stored procedure language (partial SQL:2003 implementation). Oh and they also ship a federated (AFAIK their dblink answer) along with several other storage engines for various specific tasks. Since I appreantly like monologs .. MySQL also has other features that are not available via pgfoundery like being able to determine the default charset on the database, table and column level, as well as COLLATE support to determine the sort order at runtime. Anyways what I want to make clear is simply that there are plenty of features that come with the default distro of other RDBMS that are only available via the pgfoundery. There are also plenty of features available in pgfoundry not available in any other RDBMS. However newbies that evaluate which RDBMS to use will probably never know. regards, Lukas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Lukas Smith wrote: Since I appreantly like monologs .. MySQL also has other features that are not available via pgfoundery like being able to determine the default charset on the database, table and column level, as well as COLLATE support to determine the sort order at runtime. Anyways what I want to make clear is simply that there are plenty of features that come with the default distro of other RDBMS that are only available via the pgfoundery. There are also plenty of features available in pgfoundry not available in any other RDBMS. However newbies that evaluate which RDBMS to use will probably never know. None of these is really connected in any way with any sort of modularisation. When we get table and column level charset and collation support it will surely be in the core, and not in an addon module. The topic here is NOT what features are missing from postgres. Oh, and we *do* have per database charsets. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Andrew Dunstan wrote: The topic here is NOT what features are missing from postgres. Of course it is ;-) Regards, Thomas Hallgren ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Since I appreantly like monologs .. MySQL also has other features that are not available via pgfoundery like being able to determine the default charset on the database, table and column level, as well as COLLATE support to determine the sort order at runtime. SHOW ALL; ? Anyways what I want to make clear is simply that there are plenty of features that come with the default distro of other RDBMS that are only available via the pgfoundery. There are also plenty of features available in pgfoundry not available in any other RDBMS. However newbies that evaluate which RDBMS to use will probably never know. regards, Lukas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
[HACKERS] monolithic distro (was: Re: Fwd: Three weeks left until feature freeze)
Joshua D. Drake wrote: Aside from obviously the big issue of who maintains all the pgfoundry stuff, I also think that the PostgreSQL family would benefit from a distribution that is more and the kitchen sink style. I do not know exactly if Bizgres could be considered just that? Or maybe it could get promoted to be that? Lukas, that is what www.mammothpostgresql.org is :) Doh, yes .. totaly forgot about that one. Again I think it makes absolute sense to have a nicely sized core for all the friendly forks to base their work on. However I think all newbie PR should be directed at the monolithic distro and not to that nicely sized core. Cluefull people that want to create their own PostgreSQL distro will naturally gravitate to PostgreSQL, while newbies come to PostgreSQL right now. They dont find the feature they are looking for, and we miss out on getting them into PostgreSQL. So what I am suggesting is that PostgreSQL.org should push people towards the monolithic distro. The docs should contain everything that is in the monolithic distro. At conference we should say the name of the monolithic distro etc. Again, the truely cluefull people will naturally gravitate to the PostgreSQL core project while the monolithic distro sucks in the newbies. regards, Lukas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro (was: Re: Fwd: Three weeks left
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, Lukas Smith wrote: Joshua D. Drake wrote: Aside from obviously the big issue of who maintains all the pgfoundry stuff, I also think that the PostgreSQL family would benefit from a distribution that is more and the kitchen sink style. I do not know exactly if Bizgres could be considered just that? Or maybe it could get promoted to be that? Lukas, that is what www.mammothpostgresql.org is :) Doh, yes .. totaly forgot about that one. Again I think it makes absolute sense to have a nicely sized core for all the friendly forks to base their work on. However I think all newbie PR should be directed at the monolithic distro and not to that nicely sized core. Cluefull people that want to create their own PostgreSQL distro will naturally gravitate to PostgreSQL, while newbies come to PostgreSQL right now. They dont find the feature they are looking for, and we miss out on getting them into PostgreSQL. So what I am suggesting is that PostgreSQL.org should push people towards the monolithic distro. The docs should contain everything that is in the monolithic distro. At conference we should say the name of the monolithic distro etc. Again, the truely cluefull people will naturally gravitate to the PostgreSQL core project while the monolithic distro sucks in the newbies. But, that isn't our role ... that should be the role of whomever takes on the role of 'maintainer' for such a monolithic distribution ... its no more our role to decide that pl/Java is better or worse then pl/J ... our role is to provide that core for everyone else to build around ... People like CommandPrompt, Bizgres, EnterpriseDB, Pervasive ... they have the funding to *create* and maintain that, to make sure all the parts they distribute are working properly ... The resources are there, if someone (you?) wants to do this as a FOSS project, but I fear that amount of work (both time and energy) required to make the 'include all, for all' distribution is much much greater then the returns will be ... the more you add in, the more you have to co-ordinate releases with the external projects, and pull/push old/new stuff in as it becomes 'stale', etc ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Marc G. Fournier wrote: But, that isn't our role ... that should be the role of whomever takes on the role of 'maintainer' for such a monolithic distribution ... its no more our role to decide that pl/Java is better or worse then pl/J ... our role is to provide that core for everyone else to build around ... People like CommandPrompt, Bizgres, EnterpriseDB, Pervasive ... they have the funding to *create* and maintain that, to make sure all the parts they distribute are working properly ... The resources are there, if someone (you?) wants to do this as a FOSS project, but I fear that amount of work (both time and energy) required to make the 'include all, for all' distribution is much much greater then the returns will be ... the more you add in, the more you have to co-ordinate releases with the external projects, and pull/push old/new stuff in as it becomes 'stale', etc ... Yeah, but if PostgreSQL decides to endorse one monolithic distro in the way I described it could give that project hopefully the necessary lift. And the ultimate goal is obviously that some of those newbies coming by way of the monolithic distro turn into people that bring ressources to the PostgreSQL platform/ecosystem. regards, Lukas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Marc G. Fournier wrote: But, that isn't our role ... that should be the role of whomever takes on the role of 'maintainer' for such a monolithic distribution ... its no more our role to decide that pl/Java is better or worse then pl/J ... our role is to provide that core for everyone else to build around ... Well, there is money around to sponsor development, and unless that is going to be restricted to core only projects, just giving some sponsorship involves making a choice. Comparisons have been made with perl and CPAN, but modules are adopted into the perl core distribution from time to time. Frankly, people want advice about what is good from people who know. Just saying Oh, you're all too cute! I can't possibly decide! might help to keep a fragile peace, but I doubt it does anyone much good in the long run. I'd rather trust the core developers than someone else with possibly more of an axe to grind. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: Marc G. Fournier wrote: But, that isn't our role ... that should be the role of whomever takes on the role of 'maintainer' for such a monolithic distribution ... its no more our role to decide that pl/Java is better or worse then pl/J ... our role is to provide that core for everyone else to build around ... People like CommandPrompt, Bizgres, EnterpriseDB, Pervasive ... they have the funding to *create* and maintain that, to make sure all the parts they distribute are working properly ... The resources are there, if someone (you?) wants to do this as a FOSS project, but I fear that amount of work (both time and energy) required to make the 'include all, for all' distribution is much much greater then the returns will be ... the more you add in, the more you have to co-ordinate releases with the external projects, and pull/push old/new stuff in as it becomes 'stale', etc ... Yeah, but if PostgreSQL decides to endorse one monolithic distro in the way I described it could give that project hopefully the necessary lift. And the ultimate goal is obviously that some of those newbies coming by way of the monolithic distro turn into people that bring ressources to the PostgreSQL platform/ecosystem. Should Linus endorse (or does he?) one distro of Linux, or should they not live on their own merits? Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Marc G. Fournier wrote: Yeah, but if PostgreSQL decides to endorse one monolithic distro in the way I described it could give that project hopefully the necessary lift. And the ultimate goal is obviously that some of those newbies coming by way of the monolithic distro turn into people that bring ressources to the PostgreSQL platform/ecosystem. Should Linus endorse (or does he?) one distro of Linux, or should they not live on their own merits? Well right now PostgreSQL endorses the core distro. I guess similar to the Linux Kernel by Linus. However the difference is that Linux has a huge market share, whereas PostgreSQL is continuously complaing that MySQL is inferior yet way more popular. Maybe MySQL's popularity is not even PostgreSQL's goal, but I am sure a bit more would be welcome. So yes I think right now it would make sense to endorse a monolithic distribution. regards, Lukas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Yeah, but if PostgreSQL decides to endorse one monolithic distro in the way I described it could give that project hopefully the necessary lift. And the ultimate goal is obviously that some of those newbies coming by way of the monolithic distro turn into people that bring ressources to the PostgreSQL platform/ecosystem. Should Linus endorse (or does he?) one distro of Linux, or should they not live on their own merits? No he does not. I believe leaving the expert opinions to the experts is a good argument. I also believe that anyone on this list has a right to express their opinion and make it known. However, as a group of which I am a part of, I do not believe we (PostgreSQL.Org) should be endorsing anything but the core project. I for example, will endorse PL/Java. Not because of anything to do with Dave but because of the research I have done to date, PL/Java is more mature. I also currently endorse Slony-I for 8.1 installations but that is only because we don't have a 8.1 release yet (4 weeks W00t!). I on the other hand, do not endorse Perl or anything to do with Perl :) Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: whereas PostgreSQL is continuously complaing that MySQL is inferior yet way more popular. Maybe MySQL's popularity is not even PostgreSQL's goal, but I am sure a bit more would be welcome. Does MySQL have a monolithic distribution? ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] monolithic distro
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006, Peter Eisentraut wrote: Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: whereas PostgreSQL is continuously complaing that MySQL is inferior yet way more popular. Maybe MySQL's popularity is not even PostgreSQL's goal, but I am sure a bit more would be welcome. Does MySQL have a monolithic distribution? Not any time I've ever had to install it ... no odbc, no jdbc, no nothing ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
