Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

"I once had a guy who wasn't telling younger team members that he wasn't
able to read their document due to too small fonts. We are talking C level
executives here..."

You mean he was embarrassed to admit he could not read small fonts ? How
small we talking here bellow 12 point size ?

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM p...@highoctane.be 
wrote:

> White all over Smalltalks UIs are a reason why I do *not* use them.
>
> Dark Pharo: good.
>
> Properly themeable Pharo with a palette and logical color mappings:
> nirvana. I hope to  contribute to that. I did some GToolkit dark theming
> but it was too late for 6.0 so maybe for 7.
>
> Try to code against a white background when you have floaters casting
> shadows on your retina. I sucks big time.
>
> I noticed that a lot of older folk suffer from this.
>
> I once had a guy who wasn't telling younger team members that he wasn't
> able to read their document due to too small fonts. We are talking C level
> executives here...
>
> These accessibility issues are going to become huge with people getting
> older and having cash to spend.
>
> From what I can so see, hearing problems will be quite a thing with newer
> generations.
>
> Anyway, there is NegativeScreen on Windows to get whatever I want.
>
> http://arcanesanctum.net/negativescreen/
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Aug 29, 2017 6:02 AM, "Markus Stumptner"  wrote:
>
>> On 28/08/17 06:07, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to
>>> look cool, but no one consumes. :-)
>>>
>>
>> You assume wrong cause dark themes have been dominating GUIs for over 3
>> decades now.
>>
>> Not really; bright on dark was only dominant in the days of the CRT
>> terminal when there were no "themes".  (Even if you could do it as a
>> hardware switch, setting, say, a VT220 to black-on-white both looked
>> terrible as it was more an uneven gray, and tended to dim  the tube more
>> quickly by burning in the background.)
>>
>> Instead, since full bitmap graphics happened, all screen interfaces back
>> to Xerox's prototype office systems, then Lisa/Macintosh, and then Windows
>> 2.1 have been using dark type on a white background for text work.  Partly
>> this was because of the original office metaphor, but partly also because
>> it was shown that it was easier (meaning, less error prone) to read.
>>
>> Here's a study that showed that participants were 26% more accurate in
>> reading text that way (note that "contrast reversal" on displays in those
>> days meant dark characters on white background):
>>
>> Bauer, D., & Cavonius, C., R. (1980). Improving the legibility of visual
>> display units through contrast reversal.
>> In E. Grandjean, E. Vigliani (Eds.),  Ergonomic Aspects of Visual Display
>> Terminals (pp. 137-142).
>> London: Taylor & Francis
>>
>> There were other studies in the 1980s that didn't report lower errors but
>> instead faster reading with black on white. Academically, the matter's
>> pretty much considered settled - black on white is better for most of the
>> population, and that's on screen, not on paper. (You can substitute any
>> degree of light or creamy for the white, that's really a variation of
>> screen quality.)
>> The engineering workstations of the late 80s and 90s (Sun etc) used black
>> and white as the application default as well, with white on black limited
>> to console/shell windows. This was partly for consistency with the old
>> style, partly for easy contrast with application windows in a multi-window
>> environment.
>>
>> Pharo was the rare exception of using a white theme. Light themes may be
>> popular but white are definitely not.  The web is the last fort of bright
>> themes, but the web was and still is eons behind when it comes to matters
>> of UI.
>>
>> Most other Smalltalks are dark-on-light by default all the way back to
>> Smalltalk-80 out of Xerox PARC.  None of this had anything to do with the
>> Web, which came after, but which obviously also profits from the same
>> increase in readability.  Rather than behind, Smalltalk was ahead and the
>> rest of the world followed.
>>
>> The dark theme as default in Pharo I personally consider a step back. As
>> someone who's been busy for 25+ years defending use of Smalltalk for real
>> applications, a return to a primarily developer-cool presentation instead
>> of a user-oriented default is IMO not a plus for a language branch that was
>> billed as more industry-oriented (which IMO is not exactly the same as
>> developer-oriented).  But I also understand the desire to attract
>> developers with the look that's currently fashionable.
>>
>> That said, I wonder if the recent preference for dark among developers
>> (not Pharo-specific, but many languages) has to do with the rise of
>> widespread code highlighting. I could see how colour highlighting shows up
>> better on a dark background than being glared over by a white one.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[p...@highoctane.be]

White all over Smalltalks UIs are a reason why I do *not* use them.

Dark Pharo: good.

Properly themeable Pharo with a palette and logical color mappings:
nirvana. I hope to  contribute to that. I did some GToolkit dark theming
but it was too late for 6.0 so maybe for 7.

Try to code against a white background when you have floaters casting
shadows on your retina. I sucks big time.

I noticed that a lot of older folk suffer from this.

I once had a guy who wasn't telling younger team members that he wasn't
able to read their document due to too small fonts. We are talking C level
executives here...

These accessibility issues are going to become huge with people getting
older and having cash to spend.

>From what I can so see, hearing problems will be quite a thing with newer
generations.

Anyway, there is NegativeScreen on Windows to get whatever I want.

http://arcanesanctum.net/negativescreen/

Phil


On Aug 29, 2017 6:02 AM, "Markus Stumptner"  wrote:

> On 28/08/17 06:07, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>
>
>> I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to
>> look cool, but no one consumes. :-)
>>
>
> You assume wrong cause dark themes have been dominating GUIs for over 3
> decades now.
>
> Not really; bright on dark was only dominant in the days of the CRT
> terminal when there were no "themes".  (Even if you could do it as a
> hardware switch, setting, say, a VT220 to black-on-white both looked
> terrible as it was more an uneven gray, and tended to dim  the tube more
> quickly by burning in the background.)
>
> Instead, since full bitmap graphics happened, all screen interfaces back
> to Xerox's prototype office systems, then Lisa/Macintosh, and then Windows
> 2.1 have been using dark type on a white background for text work.  Partly
> this was because of the original office metaphor, but partly also because
> it was shown that it was easier (meaning, less error prone) to read.
>
> Here's a study that showed that participants were 26% more accurate in
> reading text that way (note that "contrast reversal" on displays in those
> days meant dark characters on white background):
>
> Bauer, D., & Cavonius, C., R. (1980). Improving the legibility of visual
> display units through contrast reversal.
> In E. Grandjean, E. Vigliani (Eds.),  Ergonomic Aspects of Visual Display
> Terminals (pp. 137-142).
> London: Taylor & Francis
>
> There were other studies in the 1980s that didn't report lower errors but
> instead faster reading with black on white. Academically, the matter's
> pretty much considered settled - black on white is better for most of the
> population, and that's on screen, not on paper. (You can substitute any
> degree of light or creamy for the white, that's really a variation of
> screen quality.)
> The engineering workstations of the late 80s and 90s (Sun etc) used black
> and white as the application default as well, with white on black limited
> to console/shell windows. This was partly for consistency with the old
> style, partly for easy contrast with application windows in a multi-window
> environment.
>
> Pharo was the rare exception of using a white theme. Light themes may be
> popular but white are definitely not.  The web is the last fort of bright
> themes, but the web was and still is eons behind when it comes to matters
> of UI.
>
> Most other Smalltalks are dark-on-light by default all the way back to
> Smalltalk-80 out of Xerox PARC.  None of this had anything to do with the
> Web, which came after, but which obviously also profits from the same
> increase in readability.  Rather than behind, Smalltalk was ahead and the
> rest of the world followed.
>
> The dark theme as default in Pharo I personally consider a step back. As
> someone who's been busy for 25+ years defending use of Smalltalk for real
> applications, a return to a primarily developer-cool presentation instead
> of a user-oriented default is IMO not a plus for a language branch that was
> billed as more industry-oriented (which IMO is not exactly the same as
> developer-oriented).  But I also understand the desire to attract
> developers with the look that's currently fashionable.
>
> That said, I wonder if the recent preference for dark among developers
> (not Pharo-specific, but many languages) has to do with the rise of
> widespread code highlighting. I could see how colour highlighting shows up
> better on a dark background than being glared over by a white one.
>
> Markus
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

80s was the time of home computer with 1985 the rise of Amiga which was
light years ahead of theme support, it practically established GUIs, GPU,
dedicated hardware components, gaming, computer graphics and of course 3d
graphics, together with many other things. Plus a theme was super easy to
make because all you had to do is change the colour of foreground and
background. Smalltalk lost its chance by making a huge mistake investing on
Apple instead of Home computers. BASIC on the other hand did not make that
mistake and its creators made sure it was available on every home computer.
You turned on the computer and immediately sent you to a BASIC interpreter
that acted also as the OS. It was BASIC that established the dark theme
popularity as it chose it as its dafault theme. Smalltalk faded, BASIC
became insanely popular and still dominates mainly through Visual Basic and
Visual Basic .NET. Smalltalk would have been amazing as game orientated ,
easy to learn , home computer OS replacement for BASIC. So I am not
surprised that dark theme has been such a big discussion here even though
its non existent discussion to any other software I have used.

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 7:03 AM Markus Stumptner 
wrote:

> On 28/08/17 06:07, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>
>
>> I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to
>> look cool, but no one consumes. :-)
>>
>
> You assume wrong cause dark themes have been dominating GUIs for over 3
> decades now.
>
> Not really; bright on dark was only dominant in the days of the CRT
> terminal when there were no "themes".  (Even if you could do it as a
> hardware switch, setting, say, a VT220 to black-on-white both looked
> terrible as it was more an uneven gray, and tended to dim  the tube more
> quickly by burning in the background.)
>
> Instead, since full bitmap graphics happened, all screen interfaces back
> to Xerox's prototype office systems, then Lisa/Macintosh, and then Windows
> 2.1 have been using dark type on a white background for text work.  Partly
> this was because of the original office metaphor, but partly also because
> it was shown that it was easier (meaning, less error prone) to read.
>
> Here's a study that showed that participants were 26% more accurate in
> reading text that way (note that "contrast reversal" on displays in those
> days meant dark characters on white background):
>
> Bauer, D., & Cavonius, C., R. (1980). Improving the legibility of visual
> display units through contrast reversal.
> In E. Grandjean, E. Vigliani (Eds.),  Ergonomic Aspects of Visual Display
> Terminals (pp. 137-142).
> London: Taylor & Francis
>
> There were other studies in the 1980s that didn't report lower errors but
> instead faster reading with black on white. Academically, the matter's
> pretty much considered settled - black on white is better for most of the
> population, and that's on screen, not on paper. (You can substitute any
> degree of light or creamy for the white, that's really a variation of
> screen quality.)
> The engineering workstations of the late 80s and 90s (Sun etc) used black
> and white as the application default as well, with white on black limited
> to console/shell windows. This was partly for consistency with the old
> style, partly for easy contrast with application windows in a multi-window
> environment.
>
>
> Pharo was the rare exception of using a white theme. Light themes may be
> popular but white are definitely not.  The web is the last fort of bright
> themes, but the web was and still is eons behind when it comes to matters
> of UI.
>
> Most other Smalltalks are dark-on-light by default all the way back to
> Smalltalk-80 out of Xerox PARC.  None of this had anything to do with the
> Web, which came after, but which obviously also profits from the same
> increase in readability.  Rather than behind, Smalltalk was ahead and the
> rest of the world followed.
>
> The dark theme as default in Pharo I personally consider a step back. As
> someone who's been busy for 25+ years defending use of Smalltalk for real
> applications, a return to a primarily developer-cool presentation instead
> of a user-oriented default is IMO not a plus for a language branch that was
> billed as more industry-oriented (which IMO is not exactly the same as
> developer-oriented).  But I also understand the desire to attract
> developers with the look that's currently fashionable.
>
> That said, I wonder if the recent preference for dark among developers
> (not Pharo-specific, but many languages) has to do with the rise of
> widespread code highlighting. I could see how colour highlighting shows up
> better on a dark background than being glared over by a white one.
>
> Markus
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Markus Stumptner]

On 28/08/17 06:07, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:



I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to
look cool, but no one consumes. :-)


You assume wrong cause dark themes have been dominating GUIs for over 
3 decades now.
Not really; bright on dark was only dominant in the days of the CRT 
terminal when there were no "themes".  (Even if you could do it as a 
hardware switch, setting, say, a VT220 to black-on-white both looked 
terrible as it was more an uneven gray, and tended to dim  the tube more 
quickly by burning in the background.)


Instead, since full bitmap graphics happened, all screen interfaces back 
to Xerox's prototype office systems, then Lisa/Macintosh, and then 
Windows 2.1 have been using dark type on a white background for text 
work.  Partly this was because of the original office metaphor, but 
partly also because it was shown that it was easier (meaning, less error 
prone) to read.


Here's a study that showed that participants were 26% more accurate in 
reading text that way (note that "contrast reversal" on displays in 
those days meant dark characters on white background):


Bauer, D., & Cavonius, C., R. (1980). Improving the legibility of visual 
display units through contrast reversal.
In E. Grandjean, E. Vigliani (Eds.),  Ergonomic Aspects of Visual 
Display Terminals (pp. 137-142).

London: Taylor & Francis

There were other studies in the 1980s that didn't report lower errors 
but instead faster reading with black on white. Academically, the 
matter's pretty much considered settled - black on white is better for 
most of the population, and that's on screen, not on paper. (You can 
substitute any degree of light or creamy for the white, that's really a 
variation of screen quality.)


The engineering workstations of the late 80s and 90s (Sun etc) used 
black and white as the application default as well, with white on black 
limited to console/shell windows. This was partly for consistency with 
the old style, partly for easy contrast with application windows in a 
multi-window environment.


Pharo was the rare exception of using a white theme. Light themes may 
be popular but white are definitely not. The web is the last fort of 
bright themes, but the web was and still is eons behind when it comes 
to matters of UI.
Most other Smalltalks are dark-on-light by default all the way back to 
Smalltalk-80 out of Xerox PARC.  None of this had anything to do with 
the Web, which came after, but which obviously also profits from the 
same increase in readability.  Rather than behind, Smalltalk was ahead 
and the rest of the world followed.


The dark theme as default in Pharo I personally consider a step back. As 
someone who's been busy for 25+ years defending use of Smalltalk for 
real applications, a return to a primarily developer-cool presentation 
instead of a user-oriented default is IMO not a plus for a language 
branch that was billed as more industry-oriented (which IMO is not 
exactly the same as developer-oriented).  But I also understand the 
desire to attract developers with the look that's currently fashionable.


That said, I wonder if the recent preference for dark among developers 
(not Pharo-specific, but many languages) has to do with the rise of 
widespread code highlighting. I could see how colour highlighting shows 
up better on a dark background than being glared over by a white one.


Markus

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[p...@highoctane.be]

Dark Gmail, Dark Twitter, Wikipedia... etc no problem with Stylish.

https://userstyles.org/styles/browse?search_terms=gmail

Or make your own - here are a few I made.

https://userstyles.org/users/304480

I should do a dark Pharo.org :-)

Phil



On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 9:11 PM, Dimitris Chloupis 
wrote:

> Actually what you say makes no sense to me because my monitor is already
> at bare minimum. Its not the intensity, its the contrast. The problem
> obviously is not an exposure of 30 minutes. The mail I am writing now  has
> a white background. But its not a problem because I spent an 1 hour tops
> with email total time. I would like if Gmail had a dark theme but its no
> big deal.  However when one spent more than 8 hours it becomes a problem.
>
> It was the same when I was studying in UK law. I was very used into
> reading english because the vast majority of the coding books I had bought
> and reading since I was 13 years old were in english. It was not a problem
> reading for an hour, but after 5 hours both my eyes and brain were tired.
> Its that extra effort that accumulates hour by hour and the more time you
> spent, the more obvious it becomes. 5 hours reading a book in my mother
> tongue is like night and day.
>
> So  when I was spending a lot of hours working with Pharo the white them
> did became a major problem for me. Its not as if I see a light theme and
> after a few minutes I scream in pain "Oh my eyes are burning" :D
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 9:55 PM Peter Uhnák  wrote:
>
>> Or you people can just dim your screen instead of staring into a 60W
>> lightbulb... then the theme doesn't matter.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Alexandre Bergel <
>> alexandre.ber...@me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ups… I think this FIT file format is for something else…
>>>
>>> Alexandre
>>> --
>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Alexandre Bergel 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Phil,
>>>
>>> Yes, I wrote a FIT file parser. FIT is used to store “scientific”
>>> images, in particular for astronomy and medicine.
>>> Do you want the code?
>>>
>>> Alexandre
>>> --
>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:36 AM, p...@highoctane.be wrote:
>>>
>>> You can eat eggs all you want provided you burn the calories. They are
>>> shock full of amino acids.
>>>
>>> Cholesterol is a precursor of testosterone, so, no cholesterol is going
>>> to put a man in a bad place.
>>>
>>> Eggs and heavy deadlifts and squats. Yay, feel the burn.
>>>
>>> Speaking of which: anyone have a .fit file binding for Pharo?
>>>
>>> See this forum thread for a clue: https://www.thisisant.
>>> com/forum/viewthread/4275
>>>
>>> Roassal + Dataframe on fit files would be a great thing to have.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <
>>> kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Nutrition wise, scientists always agreed that eggs contained pretty
 much everything the body needs. Problem was cholesterol which the egg does
 significant rise.

 The fact that did change was that high cholesterol is bad, some doctors
 would argue even deadly for ones health. Problem was that this fact was
 based on a research that was on a very small group of subjects and if I am
 not mistaken it was not even humans it was lab rats.

 The problem none really funded a serious research for this fact and
 when they did they discovered that indeed eggs and other food do raise
 cholesterol significantly but our liver is capable of reducing the
 production of cholesterol to compensate hence its nowhere near as harmful
 as they used to assume.

 Science is flawed mainly because finding small facts is easy and cheap
 but general fact are very complex and very very expensive.

 Like all things, you get what you are paying for. This is why you see
 and hear so many contradictory facts. They are mostly based on simple cheap
 research. Plus "fact" is purely a fantasy, our world is too complex for
 facts as most people define them. There is truth sure, but not as easy to
 consume and explain as we would wish.

 The preference to light and dark themes is not product of bad
 scientific research. I suspect the reasons are too complex for science
 anyway because we are even eons away from explaining the human brain and
 how it works.

 Pharo not only allow you to choose a theme but its theme classes are
 actually very easy to use which is something it inherit from Squeak. It
 took me a day to create my own theme.

 The Dark UI theme class is excellent example 

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[p...@highoctane.be]

Dimming a LED screen is a bad idea. It flickers because of PWM.

My older Dell CCFL monitor feels better than brand new LED things with
brightness down.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull=1362457985

Nvidia drivers are indeed a good thing!

Phil


On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 8:54 PM, Peter Uhnák  wrote:

> Or you people can just dim your screen instead of staring into a 60W
> lightbulb... then the theme doesn't matter.
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Alexandre Bergel  > wrote:
>
>> Ups… I think this FIT file format is for something else…
>>
>> Alexandre
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Alexandre Bergel 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Phil,
>>
>> Yes, I wrote a FIT file parser. FIT is used to store “scientific” images,
>> in particular for astronomy and medicine.
>> Do you want the code?
>>
>> Alexandre
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:36 AM, p...@highoctane.be wrote:
>>
>> You can eat eggs all you want provided you burn the calories. They are
>> shock full of amino acids.
>>
>> Cholesterol is a precursor of testosterone, so, no cholesterol is going
>> to put a man in a bad place.
>>
>> Eggs and heavy deadlifts and squats. Yay, feel the burn.
>>
>> Speaking of which: anyone have a .fit file binding for Pharo?
>>
>> See this forum thread for a clue: https://www.thisisant.co
>> m/forum/viewthread/4275
>>
>> Roassal + Dataframe on fit files would be a great thing to have.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Dimitris Chloupis > > wrote:
>>
>>> Nutrition wise, scientists always agreed that eggs contained pretty much
>>> everything the body needs. Problem was cholesterol which the egg does
>>> significant rise.
>>>
>>> The fact that did change was that high cholesterol is bad, some doctors
>>> would argue even deadly for ones health. Problem was that this fact was
>>> based on a research that was on a very small group of subjects and if I am
>>> not mistaken it was not even humans it was lab rats.
>>>
>>> The problem none really funded a serious research for this fact and when
>>> they did they discovered that indeed eggs and other food do raise
>>> cholesterol significantly but our liver is capable of reducing the
>>> production of cholesterol to compensate hence its nowhere near as harmful
>>> as they used to assume.
>>>
>>> Science is flawed mainly because finding small facts is easy and cheap
>>> but general fact are very complex and very very expensive.
>>>
>>> Like all things, you get what you are paying for. This is why you see
>>> and hear so many contradictory facts. They are mostly based on simple cheap
>>> research. Plus "fact" is purely a fantasy, our world is too complex for
>>> facts as most people define them. There is truth sure, but not as easy to
>>> consume and explain as we would wish.
>>>
>>> The preference to light and dark themes is not product of bad scientific
>>> research. I suspect the reasons are too complex for science anyway because
>>> we are even eons away from explaining the human brain and how it works.
>>>
>>> Pharo not only allow you to choose a theme but its theme classes are
>>> actually very easy to use which is something it inherit from Squeak. It
>>> took me a day to create my own theme.
>>>
>>> The Dark UI theme class is excellent example for anyone who wants to
>>> subclass it and create his own light or dark theme because its not that
>>> complex.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:57 PM Davorin Rusevljan <
>>> davorin.rusevl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a
 kid eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a
 root of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food.

 I have observed similar circles in background color usability. Pharo
 has ability to choose a theme, it has both currently fashionable and older
 ones to choose from. I do not see need for anything else on that front.

 Davorin Rusevljan

>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[p...@highoctane.be]

Alexandre,

Sure, I have swimming files from my Garmin Swim watch and I'd love to graph
them in Roassal/Datatable/Pharo.

Hope we are talking about the same format.

Phil

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 8:36 PM, Alexandre Bergel 
wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> Yes, I wrote a FIT file parser. FIT is used to store “scientific” images,
> in particular for astronomy and medicine.
> Do you want the code?
>
> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:36 AM, p...@highoctane.be wrote:
>
> You can eat eggs all you want provided you burn the calories. They are
> shock full of amino acids.
>
> Cholesterol is a precursor of testosterone, so, no cholesterol is going to
> put a man in a bad place.
>
> Eggs and heavy deadlifts and squats. Yay, feel the burn.
>
> Speaking of which: anyone have a .fit file binding for Pharo?
>
> See this forum thread for a clue: https://www.thisisant.
> com/forum/viewthread/4275
>
> Roassal + Dataframe on fit files would be a great thing to have.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Dimitris Chloupis 
> wrote:
>
>> Nutrition wise, scientists always agreed that eggs contained pretty much
>> everything the body needs. Problem was cholesterol which the egg does
>> significant rise.
>>
>> The fact that did change was that high cholesterol is bad, some doctors
>> would argue even deadly for ones health. Problem was that this fact was
>> based on a research that was on a very small group of subjects and if I am
>> not mistaken it was not even humans it was lab rats.
>>
>> The problem none really funded a serious research for this fact and when
>> they did they discovered that indeed eggs and other food do raise
>> cholesterol significantly but our liver is capable of reducing the
>> production of cholesterol to compensate hence its nowhere near as harmful
>> as they used to assume.
>>
>> Science is flawed mainly because finding small facts is easy and cheap
>> but general fact are very complex and very very expensive.
>>
>> Like all things, you get what you are paying for. This is why you see and
>> hear so many contradictory facts. They are mostly based on simple cheap
>> research. Plus "fact" is purely a fantasy, our world is too complex for
>> facts as most people define them. There is truth sure, but not as easy to
>> consume and explain as we would wish.
>>
>> The preference to light and dark themes is not product of bad scientific
>> research. I suspect the reasons are too complex for science anyway because
>> we are even eons away from explaining the human brain and how it works.
>>
>> Pharo not only allow you to choose a theme but its theme classes are
>> actually very easy to use which is something it inherit from Squeak. It
>> took me a day to create my own theme.
>>
>> The Dark UI theme class is excellent example for anyone who wants to
>> subclass it and create his own light or dark theme because its not that
>> complex.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:57 PM Davorin Rusevljan <
>> davorin.rusevl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a
>>> kid eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a
>>> root of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food.
>>>
>>> I have observed similar circles in background color usability. Pharo has
>>> ability to choose a theme, it has both currently fashionable and older ones
>>> to choose from. I do not see need for anything else on that front.
>>>
>>> Davorin Rusevljan
>>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Actually what you say makes no sense to me because my monitor is already at
bare minimum. Its not the intensity, its the contrast. The problem
obviously is not an exposure of 30 minutes. The mail I am writing now  has
a white background. But its not a problem because I spent an 1 hour tops
with email total time. I would like if Gmail had a dark theme but its no
big deal.  However when one spent more than 8 hours it becomes a problem.

It was the same when I was studying in UK law. I was very used into reading
english because the vast majority of the coding books I had bought and
reading since I was 13 years old were in english. It was not a problem
reading for an hour, but after 5 hours both my eyes and brain were tired.
Its that extra effort that accumulates hour by hour and the more time you
spent, the more obvious it becomes. 5 hours reading a book in my mother
tongue is like night and day.

So  when I was spending a lot of hours working with Pharo the white them
did became a major problem for me. Its not as if I see a light theme and
after a few minutes I scream in pain "Oh my eyes are burning" :D



On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 9:55 PM Peter Uhnák  wrote:

> Or you people can just dim your screen instead of staring into a 60W
> lightbulb... then the theme doesn't matter.
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Alexandre Bergel  > wrote:
>
>> Ups… I think this FIT file format is for something else…
>>
>> Alexandre
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Alexandre Bergel 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Phil,
>>
>> Yes, I wrote a FIT file parser. FIT is used to store “scientific” images,
>> in particular for astronomy and medicine.
>> Do you want the code?
>>
>> Alexandre
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:36 AM, p...@highoctane.be wrote:
>>
>> You can eat eggs all you want provided you burn the calories. They are
>> shock full of amino acids.
>>
>> Cholesterol is a precursor of testosterone, so, no cholesterol is going
>> to put a man in a bad place.
>>
>> Eggs and heavy deadlifts and squats. Yay, feel the burn.
>>
>> Speaking of which: anyone have a .fit file binding for Pharo?
>>
>> See this forum thread for a clue:
>> https://www.thisisant.com/forum/viewthread/4275
>>
>> Roassal + Dataframe on fit files would be a great thing to have.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Dimitris Chloupis > > wrote:
>>
>>> Nutrition wise, scientists always agreed that eggs contained pretty much
>>> everything the body needs. Problem was cholesterol which the egg does
>>> significant rise.
>>>
>>> The fact that did change was that high cholesterol is bad, some doctors
>>> would argue even deadly for ones health. Problem was that this fact was
>>> based on a research that was on a very small group of subjects and if I am
>>> not mistaken it was not even humans it was lab rats.
>>>
>>> The problem none really funded a serious research for this fact and when
>>> they did they discovered that indeed eggs and other food do raise
>>> cholesterol significantly but our liver is capable of reducing the
>>> production of cholesterol to compensate hence its nowhere near as harmful
>>> as they used to assume.
>>>
>>> Science is flawed mainly because finding small facts is easy and cheap
>>> but general fact are very complex and very very expensive.
>>>
>>> Like all things, you get what you are paying for. This is why you see
>>> and hear so many contradictory facts. They are mostly based on simple cheap
>>> research. Plus "fact" is purely a fantasy, our world is too complex for
>>> facts as most people define them. There is truth sure, but not as easy to
>>> consume and explain as we would wish.
>>>
>>> The preference to light and dark themes is not product of bad scientific
>>> research. I suspect the reasons are too complex for science anyway because
>>> we are even eons away from explaining the human brain and how it works.
>>>
>>> Pharo not only allow you to choose a theme but its theme classes are
>>> actually very easy to use which is something it inherit from Squeak. It
>>> took me a day to create my own theme.
>>>
>>> The Dark UI theme class is excellent example for anyone who wants to
>>> subclass it and create his own light or dark theme because its not that
>>> complex.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:57 PM Davorin Rusevljan <
>>> davorin.rusevl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a
 kid eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a
 root of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food.

 I have observed 

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Peter Uhnák]

Or you people can just dim your screen instead of staring into a 60W
lightbulb... then the theme doesn't matter.

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Alexandre Bergel 
wrote:

> Ups… I think this FIT file format is for something else…
>
> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> On Aug 28, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Alexandre Bergel 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> Yes, I wrote a FIT file parser. FIT is used to store “scientific” images,
> in particular for astronomy and medicine.
> Do you want the code?
>
> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:36 AM, p...@highoctane.be wrote:
>
> You can eat eggs all you want provided you burn the calories. They are
> shock full of amino acids.
>
> Cholesterol is a precursor of testosterone, so, no cholesterol is going to
> put a man in a bad place.
>
> Eggs and heavy deadlifts and squats. Yay, feel the burn.
>
> Speaking of which: anyone have a .fit file binding for Pharo?
>
> See this forum thread for a clue: https://www.thisisant.
> com/forum/viewthread/4275
>
> Roassal + Dataframe on fit files would be a great thing to have.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Dimitris Chloupis 
> wrote:
>
>> Nutrition wise, scientists always agreed that eggs contained pretty much
>> everything the body needs. Problem was cholesterol which the egg does
>> significant rise.
>>
>> The fact that did change was that high cholesterol is bad, some doctors
>> would argue even deadly for ones health. Problem was that this fact was
>> based on a research that was on a very small group of subjects and if I am
>> not mistaken it was not even humans it was lab rats.
>>
>> The problem none really funded a serious research for this fact and when
>> they did they discovered that indeed eggs and other food do raise
>> cholesterol significantly but our liver is capable of reducing the
>> production of cholesterol to compensate hence its nowhere near as harmful
>> as they used to assume.
>>
>> Science is flawed mainly because finding small facts is easy and cheap
>> but general fact are very complex and very very expensive.
>>
>> Like all things, you get what you are paying for. This is why you see and
>> hear so many contradictory facts. They are mostly based on simple cheap
>> research. Plus "fact" is purely a fantasy, our world is too complex for
>> facts as most people define them. There is truth sure, but not as easy to
>> consume and explain as we would wish.
>>
>> The preference to light and dark themes is not product of bad scientific
>> research. I suspect the reasons are too complex for science anyway because
>> we are even eons away from explaining the human brain and how it works.
>>
>> Pharo not only allow you to choose a theme but its theme classes are
>> actually very easy to use which is something it inherit from Squeak. It
>> took me a day to create my own theme.
>>
>> The Dark UI theme class is excellent example for anyone who wants to
>> subclass it and create his own light or dark theme because its not that
>> complex.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:57 PM Davorin Rusevljan <
>> davorin.rusevl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a
>>> kid eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a
>>> root of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food.
>>>
>>> I have observed similar circles in background color usability. Pharo has
>>> ability to choose a theme, it has both currently fashionable and older ones
>>> to choose from. I do not see need for anything else on that front.
>>>
>>> Davorin Rusevljan
>>>
>>
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Alexandre Bergel]

Ups… I think this FIT file format is for something else…

Alexandre
-- 
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.



> On Aug 28, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Alexandre Bergel  wrote:
> 
> Hi Phil,
> 
> Yes, I wrote a FIT file parser. FIT is used to store “scientific” images, in 
> particular for astronomy and medicine.
> Do you want the code?
> 
> Alexandre
> -- 
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu 
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:36 AM, p...@highoctane.be  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> You can eat eggs all you want provided you burn the calories. They are shock 
>> full of amino acids.
>> 
>> Cholesterol is a precursor of testosterone, so, no cholesterol is going to 
>> put a man in a bad place.
>> 
>> Eggs and heavy deadlifts and squats. Yay, feel the burn.
>> 
>> Speaking of which: anyone have a .fit file binding for Pharo?
>> 
>> See this forum thread for a clue: 
>> https://www.thisisant.com/forum/viewthread/4275 
>> 
>> 
>> Roassal + Dataframe on fit files would be a great thing to have.
>> 
>> Phil
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Dimitris Chloupis > > wrote:
>> Nutrition wise, scientists always agreed that eggs contained pretty much 
>> everything the body needs. Problem was cholesterol which the egg does 
>> significant rise. 
>> 
>> The fact that did change was that high cholesterol is bad, some doctors 
>> would argue even deadly for ones health. Problem was that this fact was 
>> based on a research that was on a very small group of subjects and if I am 
>> not mistaken it was not even humans it was lab rats. 
>> 
>> The problem none really funded a serious research for this fact and when 
>> they did they discovered that indeed eggs and other food do raise 
>> cholesterol significantly but our liver is capable of reducing the 
>> production of cholesterol to compensate hence its nowhere near as harmful as 
>> they used to assume. 
>> 
>> Science is flawed mainly because finding small facts is easy and cheap but 
>> general fact are very complex and very very expensive. 
>> 
>> Like all things, you get what you are paying for. This is why you see and 
>> hear so many contradictory facts. They are mostly based on simple cheap 
>> research. Plus "fact" is purely a fantasy, our world is too complex for 
>> facts as most people define them. There is truth sure, but not as easy to 
>> consume and explain as we would wish. 
>> 
>> The preference to light and dark themes is not product of bad scientific 
>> research. I suspect the reasons are too complex for science anyway because 
>> we are even eons away from explaining the human brain and how it works. 
>> 
>> Pharo not only allow you to choose a theme but its theme classes are 
>> actually very easy to use which is something it inherit from Squeak. It took 
>> me a day to create my own theme. 
>> 
>> The Dark UI theme class is excellent example for anyone who wants to 
>> subclass it and create his own light or dark theme because its not that 
>> complex. 
>> 
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:57 PM Davorin Rusevljan 
>> > wrote:
>> If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a kid 
>> eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a root 
>> of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food. 
>> 
>> I have observed similar circles in background color usability. Pharo has 
>> ability to choose a theme, it has both currently fashionable and older ones 
>> to choose from. I do not see need for anything else on that front.
>> 
>> Davorin Rusevljan
>> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Alexandre Bergel]

Hi Phil,

Yes, I wrote a FIT file parser. FIT is used to store “scientific” images, in 
particular for astronomy and medicine.
Do you want the code?

Alexandre
-- 
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.



> On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:36 AM, p...@highoctane.be wrote:
> 
> You can eat eggs all you want provided you burn the calories. They are shock 
> full of amino acids.
> 
> Cholesterol is a precursor of testosterone, so, no cholesterol is going to 
> put a man in a bad place.
> 
> Eggs and heavy deadlifts and squats. Yay, feel the burn.
> 
> Speaking of which: anyone have a .fit file binding for Pharo?
> 
> See this forum thread for a clue: 
> https://www.thisisant.com/forum/viewthread/4275 
> 
> 
> Roassal + Dataframe on fit files would be a great thing to have.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Dimitris Chloupis  > wrote:
> Nutrition wise, scientists always agreed that eggs contained pretty much 
> everything the body needs. Problem was cholesterol which the egg does 
> significant rise. 
> 
> The fact that did change was that high cholesterol is bad, some doctors would 
> argue even deadly for ones health. Problem was that this fact was based on a 
> research that was on a very small group of subjects and if I am not mistaken 
> it was not even humans it was lab rats. 
> 
> The problem none really funded a serious research for this fact and when they 
> did they discovered that indeed eggs and other food do raise cholesterol 
> significantly but our liver is capable of reducing the production of 
> cholesterol to compensate hence its nowhere near as harmful as they used to 
> assume. 
> 
> Science is flawed mainly because finding small facts is easy and cheap but 
> general fact are very complex and very very expensive. 
> 
> Like all things, you get what you are paying for. This is why you see and 
> hear so many contradictory facts. They are mostly based on simple cheap 
> research. Plus "fact" is purely a fantasy, our world is too complex for facts 
> as most people define them. There is truth sure, but not as easy to consume 
> and explain as we would wish. 
> 
> The preference to light and dark themes is not product of bad scientific 
> research. I suspect the reasons are too complex for science anyway because we 
> are even eons away from explaining the human brain and how it works. 
> 
> Pharo not only allow you to choose a theme but its theme classes are actually 
> very easy to use which is something it inherit from Squeak. It took me a day 
> to create my own theme. 
> 
> The Dark UI theme class is excellent example for anyone who wants to subclass 
> it and create his own light or dark theme because its not that complex. 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:57 PM Davorin Rusevljan 
> > wrote:
> If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a kid 
> eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a root 
> of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food. 
> 
> I have observed similar circles in background color usability. Pharo has 
> ability to choose a theme, it has both currently fashionable and older ones 
> to choose from. I do not see need for anything else on that front.
> 
> Davorin Rusevljan
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Richard Sargent]

On the history of screens and light versus dark...
[The TL;DR answer is "technological limitations of the era."]

Way back, in the days when Smalltalk was but a gleam in its fathers' eyes,
we had CRT technology. You know, magnetic coils sweeping a beam of electrons
across a phosphor coated glass surface to make the phosphor glow and present
images to people on the other side of the glass. There were two common forms
of this device: computer terminals and televisions. There wasn't a lot of
difference between the two.

Back in those days, the electron beam hitting the phosphor typically caused
a lot of "blooming" in terms of how much illumination occurred. In other
words, when writing green text on black, the pixels of phosphor glowed
brighter and spread out a bit into the surrounding black. Inverse video
text, on the other hand, showed a green or white background with black text
(the absence of electrons hitting the phosphor). The bloom from the
background squeezed in to the letter space and made letters much harder to
read.

Back in the 60s and 70s, computer screens tended to support 80x24 (or 25)
lines of text. 80 because that was the width of a Hollerith punched card, of
course. Graphics? Almost unheard of. There were efforts like Sketchpad
[Sutherland, and probably et al.]. Graphics didn't make much of an
appearance until the mid-70s with the early personal computers, most notably
the Apple II. The earlier Radio Shack TRS-80 was purely character oriented,
and the Exidy Sorcerer was character oriented but allowed one to
programmatically define the glyphs used for the character set (which allowed
a limited form of graphics).

Those early PCs utilized existing screen technology for their displays. By
"existing", I mean televisions. The RF (radio frequency) conversion and the
sloppy/low resolution of TVs at that time still left one with a greatly
limited display capability.

The first IBM PCs came with a CGA resolution video adapter. You can look up
the details. It was limited, to say the least.

About this time, the market for specialized monitors took off and the use of
TVs as monitors started to dwindle. Coincident with this, the computer
graphics market took off and the specialized monitors / resolution race
began.

With higher and higher resolution and better electronics, the phosphor bloom
effect was correspondingly reduced. And of course, with solid state
displays, the bloom effect disappeared entirely. (It's hard to have that
bloom when there is no phosphor and no electron beam sweeping over it.)


Coincident with the introduction of bitmapped graphics (the Smalltalk
machines, things like the envisioned Dynabook, and so on) created the
opportunity to have displays that mimicked the way we worked outside the
computer world. i.e. dark text on white paper.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Dark-Mode-tp4964409p4965170.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Esteban A. Maringolo]

I think it not only a matter of user preference, but also environment
lighting conditions.
In bright environments, as with natural light, I prefer to use the
light theme. At night or with artificial light dark theme fits better.

Regards,


Esteban A. Maringolo


2017-08-28 9:30 GMT-03:00 Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works>:
>
> I found the place to adjust this - but I need to debug it as it seems my
> change also effects the colour used to highlight selected text (which is
> weird).
>
> If you modify the following method (possibly in a subclass), I found this
> helped - but haven’t figured out why text highlight colour would be impacted
> by this change?
>
> configureWindowBorderFor: aWindow
> "Made window borders a bit thcker and slightly lighter to its easier to
> distinguish
> overlapping windows"
> | aStyle |
> aStyle :=
> SimpleBorder new
> color: self borderColor lighter lighter lighter;
> width: 2.
> aWindow borderStyle: aStyle.
>
>
> Tim
>
> On 28 Aug 2017, at 01:08, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Dimitris
>
>
>
> Update – there is a sort of bug in the screenshot, which I have caused. I
> opened the page with my usual light theme, then changed themes. This updated
> the colour of the background, but not the text in the foreground. If I open
> the same playground display with the dark theme, the text is white and shows
> up OK. But I still don’t like it.
>
>
>
> Peter Kenny
>
>
>
> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of
> PBKResearch
> Sent: 27 August 2017 23:48
> To: 'Any question about pharo is welcome' <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>
>
>
> Dimitris
>
>
>
> Screenshot attached. Look particularly at the text in the right-hand page of
> the playground. Also the control buttons of the playground window – the
> buttons go black when the window gets focus. I opened the ‘About’ window so
> you can see which version I have – not yet Pharo 6.1, but not very out of
> date.
>
>
>
> Peter Kenny
>
>
>
> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of
> Dimitris Chloupis
> Sent: 27 August 2017 23:10
> To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>
>
>
> Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard coded.
> Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most popular
> dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to remove all
> this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to have themes
> without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want to make the
> light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for making it
> easier for you.
>
> Quite an irony , would not agree ?
>
> If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking
> about.
>
> Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to
> share a screenshot ?
>
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes are
> the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very
> uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a dark
> grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always true of
> the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text fields in a
> playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately switch to the
> Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons on the
> windows.
>
> Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had
> cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my
> optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my
> adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate.
>
> Just my 2p worth
>
> Peter Kenny
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of
> stephan
> Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46
> To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>
> On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>> White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference
>> is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.
>
> The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better
> with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make
> Pharo6 theme dark default
>
> Stephan
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[p...@highoctane.be]

You can eat eggs all you want provided you burn the calories. They are
shock full of amino acids.

Cholesterol is a precursor of testosterone, so, no cholesterol is going to
put a man in a bad place.

Eggs and heavy deadlifts and squats. Yay, feel the burn.

Speaking of which: anyone have a .fit file binding for Pharo?

See this forum thread for a clue:
https://www.thisisant.com/forum/viewthread/4275

Roassal + Dataframe on fit files would be a great thing to have.

Phil





On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Dimitris Chloupis 
wrote:

> Nutrition wise, scientists always agreed that eggs contained pretty much
> everything the body needs. Problem was cholesterol which the egg does
> significant rise.
>
> The fact that did change was that high cholesterol is bad, some doctors
> would argue even deadly for ones health. Problem was that this fact was
> based on a research that was on a very small group of subjects and if I am
> not mistaken it was not even humans it was lab rats.
>
> The problem none really funded a serious research for this fact and when
> they did they discovered that indeed eggs and other food do raise
> cholesterol significantly but our liver is capable of reducing the
> production of cholesterol to compensate hence its nowhere near as harmful
> as they used to assume.
>
> Science is flawed mainly because finding small facts is easy and cheap but
> general fact are very complex and very very expensive.
>
> Like all things, you get what you are paying for. This is why you see and
> hear so many contradictory facts. They are mostly based on simple cheap
> research. Plus "fact" is purely a fantasy, our world is too complex for
> facts as most people define them. There is truth sure, but not as easy to
> consume and explain as we would wish.
>
> The preference to light and dark themes is not product of bad scientific
> research. I suspect the reasons are too complex for science anyway because
> we are even eons away from explaining the human brain and how it works.
>
> Pharo not only allow you to choose a theme but its theme classes are
> actually very easy to use which is something it inherit from Squeak. It
> took me a day to create my own theme.
>
> The Dark UI theme class is excellent example for anyone who wants to
> subclass it and create his own light or dark theme because its not that
> complex.
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:57 PM Davorin Rusevljan <
> davorin.rusevl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a
>> kid eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a
>> root of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food.
>>
>> I have observed similar circles in background color usability. Pharo has
>> ability to choose a theme, it has both currently fashionable and older ones
>> to choose from. I do not see need for anything else on that front.
>>
>> Davorin Rusevljan
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Tim Mackinnon]

I found the place to adjust this - but I need to debug it as it seems my change 
also effects the colour used to highlight selected text (which is weird).

If you modify the following method (possibly in a subclass), I found this 
helped - but haven’t figured out why text highlight colour would be impacted by 
this change?

configureWindowBorderFor: aWindow
"Made window borders a bit thcker and slightly lighter to its easier to 
distinguish 
overlapping windows"

| aStyle |

aStyle := 
SimpleBorder new 
color: self borderColor lighter lighter lighter;
width: 2.

aWindow borderStyle: aStyle.


Tim

On 28 Aug 2017, at 01:08, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk 
<mailto:pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk>> wrote:

> Dimitris
>  
> Update – there is a sort of bug in the screenshot, which I have caused. I 
> opened the page with my usual light theme, then changed themes. This updated 
> the colour of the background, but not the text in the foreground. If I open 
> the same playground display with the dark theme, the text is white and shows 
> up OK. But I still don’t like it.
>  
> Peter Kenny
>  
> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org 
> <mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org>] On Behalf Of PBKResearch
> Sent: 27 August 2017 23:48
> To: 'Any question about pharo is welcome' <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org 
> <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>  
> Dimitris
>  
> Screenshot attached. Look particularly at the text in the right-hand page of 
> the playground. Also the control buttons of the playground window – the 
> buttons go black when the window gets focus. I opened the ‘About’ window so 
> you can see which version I have – not yet Pharo 6.1, but not very out of 
> date.
>  
> Peter Kenny
>  
> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org 
> <mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org>] On Behalf Of Dimitris Chloupis
> Sent: 27 August 2017 23:10
> To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org 
> <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>  
> Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard coded. 
> Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most popular 
> dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to remove all 
> this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to have themes 
> without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want to make the 
> light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for making it 
> easier for you. 
> 
> Quite an irony , would not agree ?
> 
> If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking 
> about. 
> 
> Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to share 
> a screenshot ?
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk 
> <mailto:pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk>> wrote:
> I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes are 
> the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very 
> uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a dark 
> grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always true of 
> the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text fields in a 
> playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately switch to the 
> Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons on the windows.
> 
> Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had 
> cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my 
> optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my 
> adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate.
> 
> Just my 2p worth
> 
> Peter Kenny
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org 
> <mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org>] On Behalf Of stephan
> Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46
> To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
> 
> On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference
> > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.
> 
> The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better with 
> light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make
> Pharo6 theme dark default
> 
> Stephan
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Nutrition wise, scientists always agreed that eggs contained pretty much
everything the body needs. Problem was cholesterol which the egg does
significant rise.

The fact that did change was that high cholesterol is bad, some doctors
would argue even deadly for ones health. Problem was that this fact was
based on a research that was on a very small group of subjects and if I am
not mistaken it was not even humans it was lab rats.

The problem none really funded a serious research for this fact and when
they did they discovered that indeed eggs and other food do raise
cholesterol significantly but our liver is capable of reducing the
production of cholesterol to compensate hence its nowhere near as harmful
as they used to assume.

Science is flawed mainly because finding small facts is easy and cheap but
general fact are very complex and very very expensive.

Like all things, you get what you are paying for. This is why you see and
hear so many contradictory facts. They are mostly based on simple cheap
research. Plus "fact" is purely a fantasy, our world is too complex for
facts as most people define them. There is truth sure, but not as easy to
consume and explain as we would wish.

The preference to light and dark themes is not product of bad scientific
research. I suspect the reasons are too complex for science anyway because
we are even eons away from explaining the human brain and how it works.

Pharo not only allow you to choose a theme but its theme classes are
actually very easy to use which is something it inherit from Squeak. It
took me a day to create my own theme.

The Dark UI theme class is excellent example for anyone who wants to
subclass it and create his own light or dark theme because its not that
complex.

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:57 PM Davorin Rusevljan <
davorin.rusevl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a kid
> eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a
> root of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food.
>
> I have observed similar circles in background color usability. Pharo has
> ability to choose a theme, it has both currently fashionable and older ones
> to choose from. I do not see need for anything else on that front.
>
> Davorin Rusevljan
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[H. Hirzel]

On 8/28/17, Davorin Rusevljan  wrote:
> If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a kid
> eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a
> root of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food.

In the meantime eggs are fine again, I think :-)

> I have observed similar circles in background color usability. Pharo has
> ability to choose a theme, it has both currently fashionable and older ones
> to choose from. I do not see need for anything else on that front.
>
> Davorin Rusevljan
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Davorin Rusevljan]

If I can throw in my 2c, themes are like nutrition facts. When I was a kid
eggs were the healthiest thing to consume in universe. Then they were a
root of all evil, and now days are nutrition packed food.

I have observed similar circles in background color usability. Pharo has
ability to choose a theme, it has both currently fashionable and older ones
to choose from. I do not see need for anything else on that front.

Davorin Rusevljan

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[p...@highoctane.be]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I am no authority on dark theme because I am using my blue theme full time
> and I have addressed any colour issues I had.
>
> Retina detachment, wow that is serious ! I hope you doing better :(
>

Yeah, after that, not much can really stress me out that much.

And 2 x 27 inch monitors help. Pharo is great because I can make it be the
way I want it to code in it.



>
> Well I have myopia in both eyes, my left is 6 degrees which is pretty
> high. We myopics suppose to not see very well in the dark but my visual
> perception is great in dark environments even in almost complete darkness.
>
> Its weird because as I young boy I was non stop out in the sun and I live
> in Greece, here the Sun is very bright, yet it always hurt my eyes. Not
> much as knife pain, but more like feeling pressure on the eye. Of course I
> am not the only Greek in love with his sun glasses during summer.
>
> My eye doctor said it was because of my eyes being light color compared to
> the usual dark coloured eyes Greeks have. But I think the reason most
> likely is more mysterious :D
>
>
Ah ah, 1/2 italian with green eyes here. I feel you. I am running with
shades.

Phil


> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:05 PM p...@highoctane.be <p...@highoctane.be>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <
>> kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard
>>> coded. Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most
>>> popular dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to
>>> remove all this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to
>>> have themes without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want
>>> to make the light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for
>>> making it easier for you.
>>>
>>> Quite an irony , would not agree ?
>>>
>>> If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking
>>> about.
>>>
>>> Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to
>>> share a screenshot ?
>>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes
>>>> are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very
>>>> uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a
>>>> dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always
>>>> true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text
>>>> fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately
>>>> switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons
>>>> on the windows.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had
>>>> cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my
>>>> optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my
>>>> adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate.
>>>>
>>>
>> Eye issues as well. Retinal detachment in both, and cataract on the right
>> one. Loads of floaters.
>>
>> Light mode kills them.
>>
>> Dark theme : can code for hours without any trouble.
>>
>> At the office I am at now 90% of coders are using dark themes.
>>
>> Indeed the windows buttons are annoying, I have my own little hack to
>> make them better.
>> When a control bugs you, bring a halo and try to reverse the form,
>> usually makes things readable.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Just my 2p worth
>>>>
>>>> Peter Kenny
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of stephan
>>>> Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46
>>>> To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>>>>
>>>> On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>>>> > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference
>>>> > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.
>>>>
>>>> The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does
>>>> better with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to
>>>> make
>>>> Pharo6 theme dark default
>>>>
>>>> Stephan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

I am no authority on dark theme because I am using my blue theme full time
and I have addressed any colour issues I had.

Retina detachment, wow that is serious ! I hope you doing better :(

Well I have myopia in both eyes, my left is 6 degrees which is pretty high.
We myopics suppose to not see very well in the dark but my visual
perception is great in dark environments even in almost complete darkness.

Its weird because as I young boy I was non stop out in the sun and I live
in Greece, here the Sun is very bright, yet it always hurt my eyes. Not
much as knife pain, but more like feeling pressure on the eye. Of course I
am not the only Greek in love with his sun glasses during summer.

My eye doctor said it was because of my eyes being light color compared to
the usual dark coloured eyes Greeks have. But I think the reason most
likely is more mysterious :D

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:05 PM p...@highoctane.be <p...@highoctane.be>
wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard
>> coded. Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most
>> popular dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to
>> remove all this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to
>> have themes without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want
>> to make the light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for
>> making it easier for you.
>>
>> Quite an irony , would not agree ?
>>
>> If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking
>> about.
>>
>> Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to
>> share a screenshot ?
>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes
>>> are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very
>>> uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a
>>> dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always
>>> true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text
>>> fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately
>>> switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons
>>> on the windows.
>>>
>>> Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had
>>> cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my
>>> optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my
>>> adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate.
>>>
>>
> Eye issues as well. Retinal detachment in both, and cataract on the right
> one. Loads of floaters.
>
> Light mode kills them.
>
> Dark theme : can code for hours without any trouble.
>
> At the office I am at now 90% of coders are using dark themes.
>
> Indeed the windows buttons are annoying, I have my own little hack to make
> them better.
> When a control bugs you, bring a halo and try to reverse the form, usually
> makes things readable.
>
> Phil
>
>
>>
>>> Just my 2p worth
>>>
>>> Peter Kenny
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On
>>> Behalf Of stephan
>>> Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46
>>> To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>>>
>>> On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>>> > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference
>>> > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.
>>>
>>> The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better
>>> with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make
>>> Pharo6 theme dark default
>>>
>>> Stephan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Yeah this is a known bug at least to me when I test my blue theme. I think
however that it was fixed to an extend. Anyway closing and opening the
window will update the colors so its not a serious bug. Once the theme is
changed you should experience no issues.

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:09 AM PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote:

> Dimitris
>
>
>
> Update – there is a sort of bug in the screenshot, which I have caused. I
> opened the page with my usual light theme, then changed themes. This
> updated the colour of the background, but not the text in the foreground.
> If I open the same playground display with the dark theme, the text is
> white and shows up OK. But I still don’t like it.
>
>
>
> Peter Kenny
>
>
>
> *From:* Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] *On
> Behalf Of *PBKResearch
> *Sent:* 27 August 2017 23:48
>
>
> *To:* 'Any question about pharo is welcome' <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>
>
>
> Dimitris
>
>
>
> Screenshot attached. Look particularly at the text in the right-hand page
> of the playground. Also the control buttons of the playground window – the
> buttons go black when the window gets focus. I opened the ‘About’ window so
> you can see which version I have – not yet Pharo 6.1, but not very out of
> date.
>
>
>
> Peter Kenny
>
>
>
> *From:* Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org
> <pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org>] *On Behalf Of *Dimitris Chloupis
> *Sent:* 27 August 2017 23:10
> *To:* Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>
>
>
> Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard
> coded. Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most
> popular dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to
> remove all this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to
> have themes without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want
> to make the light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for
> making it easier for you.
>
> Quite an irony , would not agree ?
>
> If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking
> about.
>
> Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to
> share a screenshot ?
>
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes
> are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very
> uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a
> dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always
> true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text
> fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately
> switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons
> on the windows.
>
> Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had
> cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my
> optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my
> adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate.
>
> Just my 2p worth
>
> Peter Kenny
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf
> Of stephan
> Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46
> To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>
> On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference
> > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.
>
> The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better
> with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make
> Pharo6 theme dark default
>
> Stephan
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[p...@highoctane.be]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard
> coded. Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most
> popular dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to
> remove all this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to
> have themes without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want
> to make the light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for
> making it easier for you.
>
> Quite an irony , would not agree ?
>
> If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking
> about.
>
> Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to
> share a screenshot ?
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes
>> are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very
>> uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a
>> dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always
>> true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text
>> fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately
>> switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons
>> on the windows.
>>
>> Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had
>> cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my
>> optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my
>> adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate.
>>
>
Eye issues as well. Retinal detachment in both, and cataract on the right
one. Loads of floaters.

Light mode kills them.

Dark theme : can code for hours without any trouble.

At the office I am at now 90% of coders are using dark themes.

Indeed the windows buttons are annoying, I have my own little hack to make
them better.
When a control bugs you, bring a halo and try to reverse the form, usually
makes things readable.

Phil


>
>> Just my 2p worth
>>
>> Peter Kenny
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf
>> Of stephan
>> Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46
>> To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>>
>> On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>> > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference
>> > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.
>>
>> The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better
>> with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make
>> Pharo6 theme dark default
>>
>> Stephan
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[PBKResearch]

Dimitris

 

Update – there is a sort of bug in the screenshot, which I have caused. I 
opened the page with my usual light theme, then changed themes. This updated 
the colour of the background, but not the text in the foreground. If I open the 
same playground display with the dark theme, the text is white and shows up OK. 
But I still don’t like it.

 

Peter Kenny

 

From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of 
PBKResearch
Sent: 27 August 2017 23:48
To: 'Any question about pharo is welcome' <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

 

Dimitris

 

Screenshot attached. Look particularly at the text in the right-hand page of 
the playground. Also the control buttons of the playground window – the buttons 
go black when the window gets focus. I opened the ‘About’ window so you can see 
which version I have – not yet Pharo 6.1, but not very out of date.

 

Peter Kenny

 

From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of 
Dimitris Chloupis
Sent: 27 August 2017 23:10
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org 
<mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> >
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

 

Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard coded. 
Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most popular 
dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to remove all 
this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to have themes 
without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want to make the light 
theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for making it easier for 
you. 

Quite an irony , would not agree ?

If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking about. 

Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to share a 
screenshot ?

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk 
<mailto:pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk> > wrote:

I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes are the 
same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very uncomfortable. On 
my system, some elements have a black foreground on a dark grey background, 
which is almost impossible to see. This is always true of the 
maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text fields in a 
playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately switch to the Watery 
theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons on the windows.

Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had 
cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my 
optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my 
adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate.

Just my 2p worth

Peter Kenny

-Original Message-
From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org 
<mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org> ] On Behalf Of stephan
Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46
To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> 
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference
> is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.

The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better with 
light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make
Pharo6 theme dark default

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard
coded. Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most
popular dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to
remove all this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to
have themes without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want
to make the light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for
making it easier for you.

Quite an irony , would not agree ?

If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking
about.

Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to
share a screenshot ?
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <pe...@pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote:

> I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes
> are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very
> uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a
> dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always
> true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text
> fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately
> switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons
> on the windows.
>
> Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had
> cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my
> optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my
> adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate.
>
> Just my 2p worth
>
> Peter Kenny
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf
> Of stephan
> Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46
> To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode
>
> On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference
> > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.
>
> The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better
> with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make
> Pharo6 theme dark default
>
> Stephan
>
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[PBKResearch]

I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes are the 
same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very uncomfortable. On 
my system, some elements have a black foreground on a dark grey background, 
which is almost impossible to see. This is always true of the 
maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text fields in a 
playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately switch to the Watery 
theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons on the windows.

Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had 
cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my 
optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my 
adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate.

Just my 2p worth

Peter Kenny

-Original Message-
From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-boun...@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of 
stephan
Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46
To: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference 
> is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.

The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better with 
light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make
Pharo6 theme dark default

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

no offence my friend, even when i did not understand the joke. I am
completely respectful of the people who find it hard to work with a dark
theme and I always stated that Pharo should have both, ideally ever more
themes. Of course we don't have the size of the community to do that.
Ideally Pharo could offer the choice at welcome screen but to be fair to
devs its super easy to change it, a couple of clicks away. Light theme
definitely wont go anywhere , which one is more popular is not really my
point and frankly it does not matter both of them have quite a large
following and its great we have them both in image.

If we want people to love Pharo then we have to accept that each person has
it own preferences and sometime its for good reason like eye strain. I am
definitely a big defender of choice , after all my theme has that as a
feature ;)

I suspect dark monitor may have been an energy issue. Another issue is that
back then monitors were CRT and there was actual radiation that affected
the eye. For example my monitor was making my eyes seeing things pink for a
while till my eye rested. It may have been the green color. I remember my
glasses even came with layers specialised to reflect some of the radiation
and it actually helped a bit. On the other hand bright themes did emerge at
the time of window 3.1 and of course we still had CRT monitors so you may
be correct and it was mainly a energy consumption issue. I simply dont
know, life tends to be appear simple , but alas its far from it :D


On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 12:24 AM Alistair Grant 
wrote:

> Hi Dimitris,
>
> On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 08:37:56PM +, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> >
> > I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to
> > look cool, but no one consumes. :-)
>
> I actually meant this in jest, which is why it has the smiley face
> afterwords.
>
> I don't know which is more popular, light or dark themes, I'm glad that
> Pharo makes it easy to automatically change to which ever one prefers -
> which was what the code following this sentence was demonstrating.
>
>
> > You assume wrong cause dark themes have been dominating GUIs for over 3
> decades
> > now. Pharo was the rare exception of using a white theme. Light themes
> may be
> > popular but white are definitely not.  The web is the last fort of bright
> > themes, but the web was and still is eons behind when it comes to
> matters of
> > UI.
> >
> > My first computer was black background with green fonts, black back in
> 80 and
> > 90s was pretty much the norm. There was no white or bright themes back
> then. It
> > was not because the monitors had any issues with displaying white.
>
> I had my terminals set to black background with green fonts up to last
> year since that is what I was used to from my Dick Smith System 80
> (TRS-80 clone). :-)
>
> Going slightly off topic: I suspect terminals used a dark theme by
> default because a light theme would burn out the CRT.  If I remember
> correctly, DEC VT-220's had a light theme (which I didn't use).
>
>
> > It was actually the web that made white a thing. Probably inexperienced
> web
> > coders (there were no web devs back then ) thought it made sense
> transitioning
> > from paper. Problem is that paper , reflects light, does not emit it.
> >
> > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference is
> also a
> > matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. Some eyes have hard time
> > distinguishing elements in dark environments  , others have hard time
> > distinguishing elements in bright environments but excel at dark
> environments.
> > I belong to the second case as such white themes for me are pretty much
> > unacceptable for any content I have to read for a long time.
> >
> > My monitor as we speak is set to 1/16th of its brightness which is the
> minimum
> > setting. During the day that sun goes in my room it goes up to 3/16
> maximum.
> > Above that I am forced to simply reduce the light in the room.
> >
> > Trying to use Moose especially that was even brighter it was even harder
> for me
> > to the point I gave up and never used it since then.
> >
> > So yes there are many of us who were raised with dark themes, still use
> dark
> > themes , will continue to use dark themes and criticise any app that
> does not
> > support them. For me the Dark theme has been the most important
> improvement of
> > Pharo and I am not exaggerating one tiny bit.
>
> I largely agree with what you've said.  My eyes have just deteriorated
> in the opposite direction - I can't read with a dark theme (my terminals
> are now dark text on a white background).
>
> My apologies for any offence, it wasn't intended.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Alistair
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Alistair Grant]

Hi Dimitris,

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 08:37:56PM +, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> 
> I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to
> look cool, but no one consumes. :-)

I actually meant this in jest, which is why it has the smiley face
afterwords.

I don't know which is more popular, light or dark themes, I'm glad that
Pharo makes it easy to automatically change to which ever one prefers -
which was what the code following this sentence was demonstrating.


> You assume wrong cause dark themes have been dominating GUIs for over 3 
> decades
> now. Pharo was the rare exception of using a white theme. Light themes may be
> popular but white are definitely not.  The web is the last fort of bright
> themes, but the web was and still is eons behind when it comes to matters of
> UI. 
> 
> My first computer was black background with green fonts, black back in 80 and
> 90s was pretty much the norm. There was no white or bright themes back then. 
> It
> was not because the monitors had any issues with displaying white. 

I had my terminals set to black background with green fonts up to last
year since that is what I was used to from my Dick Smith System 80
(TRS-80 clone). :-)

Going slightly off topic: I suspect terminals used a dark theme by
default because a light theme would burn out the CRT.  If I remember
correctly, DEC VT-220's had a light theme (which I didn't use).


> It was actually the web that made white a thing. Probably inexperienced web
> coders (there were no web devs back then ) thought it made sense transitioning
> from paper. Problem is that paper , reflects light, does not emit it. 
> 
> White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference is also 
> a
> matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. Some eyes have hard time
> distinguishing elements in dark environments  , others have hard time
> distinguishing elements in bright environments but excel at dark environments.
> I belong to the second case as such white themes for me are pretty much
> unacceptable for any content I have to read for a long time. 
> 
> My monitor as we speak is set to 1/16th of its brightness which is the minimum
> setting. During the day that sun goes in my room it goes up to 3/16 maximum.
> Above that I am forced to simply reduce the light in the room. 
> 
> Trying to use Moose especially that was even brighter it was even harder for 
> me
> to the point I gave up and never used it since then. 
> 
> So yes there are many of us who were raised with dark themes, still use dark
> themes , will continue to use dark themes and criticise any app that does not
> support them. For me the Dark theme has been the most important improvement of
> Pharo and I am not exaggerating one tiny bit. 

I largely agree with what you've said.  My eyes have just deteriorated
in the opposite direction - I can't read with a dark theme (my terminals
are now dark text on a white background).

My apologies for any offence, it wasn't intended.


Cheers,
Alistair

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

what research institute reached that conclusion the same institute that
claims that Pharo and Git cannot mix ?

Please say to your institute to do a simple search on google search and put
two words "code editor" and then click the "images" section and then say
hello to reality. In the first 40 most popular results only 2 use a light
theme. The rest of results is 60/40 dark/light. We agree one things though,
its definitely sufficiently clear which one is the most popular.

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 11:47 PM stephan  wrote:

> On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference is
> > also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same.
>
> The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better
> with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make
> Pharo6 theme dark default
>
> Stephan
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[stephan]

On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference is 
also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. 


The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better 
with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make 
Pharo6 theme dark default


Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

> Kilon has blue-ish theme (I don't think he published it anywhere),
>

The theme is called Nireas , its a dark theme based on blue color and is
inspired by the best computer of all time. Amiga 500.

Nireas is also a special theme because its a themable theme. It comes with
a GUI that allows you to change its colors very easily to whatever you
like. Should have probably named it "Chameleon" ;)

 I was planning to create also a preset system for it but I have been so
happy with the blue theme that I never bothered it , together with the fact
that none shown an actual interest in having a theme creation GUI. Of
course people think its a cool idea, but I am talking here actual help, not
words.

Its super easy to get Nireas, it installs with a single click from the
Package Browser from inside the image , like you install many other things.
Its tested with each version because well, I always use the latest version
of Pharo and there is close to zero reason why it would not work other than
someone actually changing the theme classes. Of course its hosted on Github

https://github.com/kilon/Nireas

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Dimitris Chloupis]

>
>
> I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to
> look cool, but no one consumes. :-)
>

You assume wrong cause dark themes have been dominating GUIs for over 3
decades now. Pharo was the rare exception of using a white theme. Light
themes may be popular but white are definitely not.  The web is the last
fort of bright themes, but the web was and still is eons behind when it
comes to matters of UI.

My first computer was black background with green fonts, black back in 80
and 90s was pretty much the norm. There was no white or bright themes back
then. It was not because the monitors had any issues with displaying white.

It was actually the web that made white a thing. Probably inexperienced web
coders (there were no web devs back then ) thought it made sense
transitioning from paper. Problem is that paper , reflects light, does not
emit it.

White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference is
also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. Some eyes have hard time
distinguishing elements in dark environments  , others have hard time
distinguishing elements in bright environments but excel at dark
environments. I belong to the second case as such white themes for me are
pretty much unacceptable for any content I have to read for a long time.

My monitor as we speak is set to 1/16th of its brightness which is the
minimum setting. During the day that sun goes in my room it goes up to 3/16
maximum. Above that I am forced to simply reduce the light in the room.

Trying to use Moose especially that was even brighter it was even harder
for me to the point I gave up and never used it since then.

So yes there are many of us who were raised with dark themes, still use
dark themes , will continue to use dark themes and criticise any app that
does not support them. For me the Dark theme has been the most important
improvement of Pharo and I am not exaggerating one tiny bit.

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Peter Uhnák]

> Too bad Pharo isn't themable.

If you don't know whether it is themable, you can just ask instead of
issuing statements. ;)

I've also seen Sublimish theme (don't know where the repo is), Dark Metal
Theme ( https://github.com/estebanlm/themes ), Kilon has blue-ish theme (I
don't think he published it anywhere), and there was also ubuntu theme (not
sure if it still works,
https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/2015/07/04/ubuntu-theme-for-pharo/)

But white & dark are supported. (I switch between them regularly,
especially on projector.)

Of course you can create your own theme.

Peter




On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Tim Mackinnon  wrote:

> It's also a single click in the Welcome screen - which is maybe too
> obvious ;)
>
> Tim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 27 Aug 2017, at 03:17, horrido  wrote:
> >
> > Oh, cool! I didn't realize that. (I've never had a need to look at
> Settings.)
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Dark-
> Mode-tp4964409p4964436.html
> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Tim Mackinnon]

It's also a single click in the Welcome screen - which is maybe too obvious ;)

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Aug 2017, at 03:17, horrido  wrote:
> 
> Oh, cool! I didn't realize that. (I've never had a need to look at Settings.)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/Dark-Mode-tp4964409p4964436.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Alistair Grant]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 03:40:04PM -0700, horrido wrote:
> I found this  interesting article
> 
>  
> . I wanted to express my opinion...
> 
> Dark mode looks cool and all, but it does have a downside. I was very happy
> with the normal Pharo 5.0 look, but when Pharo 6.0 came out with its dark
> theme, I was rather put off by it. For me, at least, the dark theme makes it
> harder to read the text. Too bad Pharo isn't themable.

I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to
look cool, but no one consumes. :-)

You can also automate switching to the light theme with a startup.st:

StartupPreferencesLoader default executeAtomicItems: {
StartupAction
name: 'Set light theme'
code: [ Pharo3Theme beCurrent ]
runOnce: true.

}


Disclaimer: my startup.st is different, I haven't tested this, but
hopefully you can figure it out from here.

Cheers,
Alistair

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Cyril Ferlicot D.]

Le 27/08/2017 à 02:52, Damien Pollet a écrit :
> Sure it is… AFAIK the light theme is still available in the settings
> 

There is also the possibility to do it through the welcome window.

-- 
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

http://www.synectique.eu
2 rue Jacques Prévert 01,
59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France



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Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[horrido]

Oh, cool! I didn't realize that. (I've never had a need to look at Settings.)

Thanks.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Dark-Mode-tp4964409p4964436.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[Damien Pollet]

Sure it is… AFAIK the light theme is still available in the settings

On 27 August 2017 at 00:40, horrido  wrote:

> I found this  interesting article
>  for-people-like-molly-watt-ae9fdc38479f>
> . I wanted to express my opinion...
>
> Dark mode looks cool and all, but it does have a downside. I was very happy
> with the normal Pharo 5.0 look, but when Pharo 6.0 came out with its dark
> theme, I was rather put off by it. For me, at least, the dark theme makes
> it
> harder to read the text. Too bad Pharo isn't themable.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Dark-
> Mode-tp4964409.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>

[Pharo-users] Dark Mode

[horrido]

I found this  interesting article

 
. I wanted to express my opinion...

Dark mode looks cool and all, but it does have a downside. I was very happy
with the normal Pharo 5.0 look, but when Pharo 6.0 came out with its dark
theme, I was rather put off by it. For me, at least, the dark theme makes it
harder to read the text. Too bad Pharo isn't themable.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Dark-Mode-tp4964409.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.