Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Sean P. DeNigris]

Craig Latta wrote
>  Oh, it wasn't clear to me that this was one of Sean's requirements.

I would say "sorry" but I'm glad I wasn't clear because I learned something
cool from your reply ;)



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Craig Latta]

Hi Norbert--

> > In Pharo on the SqueakJS virtual machine in a web browser[1], I
> > sketch with live DOM objects, and write them out as HTML. This way,
> > the DSL is the actual JavaScript DOM API which is sitting in the web
> > browser anyway, although driven with Smalltalk messages over the JS
> > bridge. I'm also assured that everything I do with the DOM objects
> > is legitimate, and I can handle DOM API errors live in Smalltalk.
>
> Sure you can do the same with PharoJS.

 Really? I wasn't aware that one can livecode JS objects with
PharoJS, only that PharoJS generates JS source which eventually runs in
a browser. Can you give an example?

> But there are scenarios where you want to have DOM actions without
> having a browser.

 Oh, it wasn't clear to me that this was one of Sean's requirements.


 thanks,

-C

--
Craig Latta
Black Page Digital
Amsterdam :: San Francisco
cr...@blackpagedigital.com
+31   6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415  287 3547 (no SMS)

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Norbert Hartl]

> Am 18.09.2017 um 09:03 schrieb Craig Latta :
> 
> 
> Hi Sean--
> 
>> I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but
>> without loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?
> 
> In Pharo on the SqueakJS virtual machine in a web browser[1], I
> sketch with live DOM objects, and write them out as HTML. This way, the
> DSL is the actual JavaScript DOM API which is sitting in the web browser
> anyway, although driven with Smalltalk messages over the JS bridge. I'm
> also assured that everything I do with the DOM objects is legitimate,
> and I can handle DOM API errors live in Smalltalk.
> 
> 
Sure you can do the same with PharoJS. But there are scenarios where you want 
to have DOM actions without having a browser. You don't have that problem 
because you are in the browser

Norbert
> -C
> 
> [1] https://caffeine.js.org/pharo
> 
> --
> Craig Latta
> Black Page Digital
> Amsterdam :: San Francisco
> cr...@blackpagedigital.com
> +31   6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
> + 1 415  287 3547 (no SMS)

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Craig Latta]

Hi Sean--

> I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but
> without loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?

 In Pharo on the SqueakJS virtual machine in a web browser[1], I
sketch with live DOM objects, and write them out as HTML. This way, the
DSL is the actual JavaScript DOM API which is sitting in the web browser
anyway, although driven with Smalltalk messages over the JS bridge. I'm
also assured that everything I do with the DOM objects is legitimate,
and I can handle DOM API errors live in Smalltalk.


-C

[1] https://caffeine.js.org/pharo

--
Craig Latta
Black Page Digital
Amsterdam :: San Francisco
cr...@blackpagedigital.com
+31   6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415  287 3547 (no SMS)

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Sean P. DeNigris]

NorbertHartl wrote
> There could be a lot of synergies here because web frameworks, pillar,
> PharoJS are all working close to something like that.

I first thought along these lines when using Amber. I was writing Bootstrap
support and saw that it was already available for Seaside and thought, darn
it feels like unnecessary fragmentation here because these are all common,
well-defined concepts!



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Stephane Ducasse]

Ok I will try to digest it :)
I do not remember how this is done in Pillar but this is a visitor and
it could call a streaming generator.

Stef


On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
>
>
>> Am 17.09.2017 um 13:34 schrieb Stephane Ducasse :
>>
>> Norbert can you explain the difference between "a HTML model that can
>> be used for streaming, too, instead just the streaming."
>> because indeed in Pillar we have another HTML exporter and I would
>> like to reuse :)
>
> The difference is having a streaming API like seaside that uses brushes to 
> write a HTML tag with its attributes and uses blocks to nest tags.This 
> way at the end of the code you don't have a document model but a serialized 
> form of the DOM that depends on the canvas you use.
> The standalone HTML model would be a DOM on which you can work afterwards. 
> You can navigate, decorate etc. before serializing this the a html string. 
> For the PharoJS this would ease the development in the pharo image. For 
> pillar it would be a theoretical improvement to convert a pillar DOM to a 
> HTML DOM and this to a HTML string representation. But as long as the 
> benefits aren't clear the intermediate step for pillar likes a bit too much.
> But I have the strong feeling it would be good if there would be more 
> directions you can go. We have a good XML parser that produces a XML DOM. We 
> have pillar with its own DOM that can be converted to HTML. I don't know what 
> SOUP is producing. And we have web frameworks where people have different 
> ways producing for the web. I see potential in supporting multiple ways of 
> reading and writing HTML and making this experience much more powerful.
>
> Norbert
>>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 1:29 PM, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
>>>
>>>
> Am 17.09.2017 um 12:12 schrieb Pierce Ng :
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 06:25:55PM +0200, Stephane Ducasse wrote:
> Hi Pierce Ng
> How different is the API from Seaside?
> Because I would like to use it.
> I like to think modularly :)

 Hi Stef,

 I modeled it after Seaside's API. However, it was really just a start and 
 needs
 much more work. I created this when investigating writing web apps in Cuis,
 hence the perceived need for a standalone library. Eventually I ran out of 
 time
 and decided to stick to full Seaside loaded into Pharo.

>>> So you've built something like seaside canvas? I like to emphasize that 
>>> seaside is not really a standalone HTML model but (as the name says) a 
>>> canvas which streams markup.
>>> What we should explore is the possibility of having a HTML model that can 
>>> be used for streaming, too, instead just the streaming. There could be a 
>>> lot of synergies here because web frameworks, pillar, PharoJS are all 
>>> working close to something like that.
>>>
>>> my 2 cents,
>>>
>>> Norbert
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Norbert Hartl]

> Am 17.09.2017 um 13:34 schrieb Stephane Ducasse :
> 
> Norbert can you explain the difference between "a HTML model that can
> be used for streaming, too, instead just the streaming."
> because indeed in Pillar we have another HTML exporter and I would
> like to reuse :)

The difference is having a streaming API like seaside that uses brushes to 
write a HTML tag with its attributes and uses blocks to nest tags.This way 
at the end of the code you don't have a document model but a serialized form of 
the DOM that depends on the canvas you use.
The standalone HTML model would be a DOM on which you can work afterwards. You 
can navigate, decorate etc. before serializing this the a html string. For the 
PharoJS this would ease the development in the pharo image. For pillar it would 
be a theoretical improvement to convert a pillar DOM to a HTML DOM and this to 
a HTML string representation. But as long as the benefits aren't clear the 
intermediate step for pillar likes a bit too much. 
But I have the strong feeling it would be good if there would be more 
directions you can go. We have a good XML parser that produces a XML DOM. We 
have pillar with its own DOM that can be converted to HTML. I don't know what 
SOUP is producing. And we have web frameworks where people have different ways 
producing for the web. I see potential in supporting multiple ways of reading 
and writing HTML and making this experience much more powerful.

Norbert
>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 1:29 PM, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
>> 
>> 
 Am 17.09.2017 um 12:12 schrieb Pierce Ng :
 
 On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 06:25:55PM +0200, Stephane Ducasse wrote:
 Hi Pierce Ng
 How different is the API from Seaside?
 Because I would like to use it.
 I like to think modularly :)
>>> 
>>> Hi Stef,
>>> 
>>> I modeled it after Seaside's API. However, it was really just a start and 
>>> needs
>>> much more work. I created this when investigating writing web apps in Cuis,
>>> hence the perceived need for a standalone library. Eventually I ran out of 
>>> time
>>> and decided to stick to full Seaside loaded into Pharo.
>>> 
>> So you've built something like seaside canvas? I like to emphasize that 
>> seaside is not really a standalone HTML model but (as the name says) a 
>> canvas which streams markup.
>> What we should explore is the possibility of having a HTML model that can be 
>> used for streaming, too, instead just the streaming. There could be a lot of 
>> synergies here because web frameworks, pillar, PharoJS are all working close 
>> to something like that.
>> 
>> my 2 cents,
>> 
>> Norbert

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Stephane Ducasse]

Norbert can you explain the difference between "a HTML model that can
be used for streaming, too, instead just the streaming."
because indeed in Pillar we have another HTML exporter and I would
like to reuse :)

On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 1:29 PM, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
>
>
>> Am 17.09.2017 um 12:12 schrieb Pierce Ng :
>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 06:25:55PM +0200, Stephane Ducasse wrote:
>>> Hi Pierce Ng
>>> How different is the API from Seaside?
>>> Because I would like to use it.
>>> I like to think modularly :)
>>
>> Hi Stef,
>>
>> I modeled it after Seaside's API. However, it was really just a start and 
>> needs
>> much more work. I created this when investigating writing web apps in Cuis,
>> hence the perceived need for a standalone library. Eventually I ran out of 
>> time
>> and decided to stick to full Seaside loaded into Pharo.
>>
> So you've built something like seaside canvas? I like to emphasize that 
> seaside is not really a standalone HTML model but (as the name says) a canvas 
> which streams markup.
> What we should explore is the possibility of having a HTML model that can be 
> used for streaming, too, instead just the streaming. There could be a lot of 
> synergies here because web frameworks, pillar, PharoJS are all working close 
> to something like that.
>
> my 2 cents,
>
> Norbert

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Norbert Hartl]

> Am 17.09.2017 um 12:12 schrieb Pierce Ng :
> 
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 06:25:55PM +0200, Stephane Ducasse wrote:
>> Hi Pierce Ng
>> How different is the API from Seaside?
>> Because I would like to use it.
>> I like to think modularly :)
> 
> Hi Stef,
> 
> I modeled it after Seaside's API. However, it was really just a start and 
> needs
> much more work. I created this when investigating writing web apps in Cuis,
> hence the perceived need for a standalone library. Eventually I ran out of 
> time
> and decided to stick to full Seaside loaded into Pharo.
> 
So you've built something like seaside canvas? I like to emphasize that seaside 
is not really a standalone HTML model but (as the name says) a canvas which 
streams markup. 
What we should explore is the possibility of having a HTML model that can be 
used for streaming, too, instead just the streaming. There could be a lot of 
synergies here because web frameworks, pillar, PharoJS are all working close to 
something like that.

my 2 cents,

Norbert

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Pierce Ng]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:14:54AM -0300, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
> I don't know how modular it is, but maybe loading only the 'Seaside-Canvas'
> package you can use the WAHtmlCanvas to create the HTML content.

I also experimented with loading enough of Seaside in bits and pieces to get
the canvas thing working. Was not successful back then.

Pierce

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Pierce Ng]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 06:25:55PM +0200, Stephane Ducasse wrote:
> Hi Pierce Ng
> How different is the API from Seaside?
> Because I would like to use it.
> I like to think modularly :)

Hi Stef,

I modeled it after Seaside's API. However, it was really just a start and needs
much more work. I created this when investigating writing web apps in Cuis,
hence the perceived need for a standalone library. Eventually I ran out of time
and decided to stick to full Seaside loaded into Pharo.

Pierce

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Herby Vojčík]

Stephane Ducasse wrote:

Hi Pierce Ng

How different is the API from Seaside?
Because I would like to use it.
I like to think modularly :)

Stef


Maybe porting Silk and let it write to some simulated DOM could be 
interesting as well... :-)


https://lolg.it/herby/silk

Herby


On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Pierce Ng  wrote:

On Fri, Sep 08, 2017 at 03:15:56PM -0700, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:

I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but without
loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?

I wrote this but subsequently decided that loading the whole of Seaside into my
image just for this functionality is ok and stopped.

   http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PierceNg/WaterMint-HTML

Pierce

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[H. Hirzel]

Interestingly the Seaside team has realized this as well

https://github.com/SeasideSt/Seaside/issues/976 

On 9/11/17, Stephane Ducasse  wrote:
> Hi Pierce Ng
>
> How different is the API from Seaside?
> Because I would like to use it.
> I like to think modularly :)
>
> Stef
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Pierce Ng  wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 08, 2017 at 03:15:56PM -0700, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
>>> I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but
>>> without
>>> loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?
>>
>> I wrote this but subsequently decided that loading the whole of Seaside
>> into my
>> image just for this functionality is ok and stopped.
>>
>>   http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PierceNg/WaterMint-HTML
>>
>> Pierce
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Stephane Ducasse]

Hi Pierce Ng

How different is the API from Seaside?
Because I would like to use it.
I like to think modularly :)

Stef

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Pierce Ng  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 08, 2017 at 03:15:56PM -0700, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
>> I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but without
>> loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?
>
> I wrote this but subsequently decided that loading the whole of Seaside into 
> my
> image just for this functionality is ok and stopped.
>
>   http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PierceNg/WaterMint-HTML
>
> Pierce
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Esteban A. Maringolo]

I don't know how modular it is, but maybe loading only the 'Seaside-Canvas'
package you can use the WAHtmlCanvas to create the HTML content.

I used it together with Mandrill client by creating the mail body with the
result of `WAHtmlCanvas builder render: [ :html | ... ]`.

HTH.

Regards,



Esteban A. Maringolo

2017-09-11 7:31 GMT-03:00 Pierce Ng :

> On Fri, Sep 08, 2017 at 03:15:56PM -0700, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
> > I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but
> without
> > loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?
>
> I wrote this but subsequently decided that loading the whole of Seaside
> into my
> image just for this functionality is ok and stopped.
>
>   http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PierceNg/WaterMint-HTML
>
> Pierce
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Pierce Ng]

On Fri, Sep 08, 2017 at 03:15:56PM -0700, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
> I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but without
> loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?

I wrote this but subsequently decided that loading the whole of Seaside into my
image just for this functionality is ok and stopped.

  http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PierceNg/WaterMint-HTML

Pierce

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Sean P. DeNigris]

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> not really a DSL

I disagree ;) It looks perfect!



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Sean P. DeNigris]

Hannes Hirzel wrote
> the question is of course - is it the HTML only model you are
> interested in or is it rather a 'web document model'

Thanks for the detailed replies! Yes, you are right. I should've given more
info about my use case. I had some HTML that I was using for an email
signature for my organization. Every time we have a new officer, I would dig
out and hand edit an existing signature in a dumb text file. This worked as
far as it goes, but when I wanted to make a change to the design, I'd have
to hand edit them all. So, I thought, let's just do it automagically in
Pharo! But then I ended up with a weird hybrid approach where:
- PRO: I broke the HTML up into smaller logical pieces in Pharo methods
- CON: The individual pieces were still just dumb text (e.g. I had to read
through a string to pick out which parts belong to which
tag/attribute/inner-text)
- CON: I lost the ability to deal with the HTML in its own domain (e.g. open
it in Dreamweaver and live edit)

I reckoned that I should fully commit to one approach. Either have an HTML
template file(s) which Pharo manipulates, or break up the HTML fully into a
domain representation.

So my goal is to have something which outputs HTML suitable for an email
signature based on HTML which I already have in text/file form.



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[H. Hirzel]

Sean,

the question is of course - is it the HTML only model you are
interested in or is it rather a 'web document model' (i.e. something
which is displayed in a browser) thus including HTML and CSS.

--HH.

On 9/9/17, H. Hirzel  wrote:
> On 9/9/17, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
>> I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but
>> without
>> loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?
>>
>
> Hello Sean
>
>
> 1.
> One idea is _not_ to go for a HTML builder DSL but for a document
> model plus a generator.
> The generator is a visitor for the document object model.
>
> There is the Pillar document model and a visitor already in place.
>
> The current challenge  - actually it is not a challenge - but just
> needs some time -  is to extract the Pillar document model (easy) and
> the tests (needs more time)  so that it can be loaded as a stand-alone
> package.
>
> See a long discussion in a thread in August about including Pillar in the
> image.
>
> The same then applies for the HTML generator. That is just a file-out
> from an image which has the full Pillar loaded.
>
> So IMHO it is not so much about inventing a new HTML builder DSL but
> to "mold" exisiting infrastructure into shape.
>
> This has the advantage that you can generate other representations easily.
>
>
> 2.
> Another idea is to look at HttpView2 done 10 years ago and come up
> with a revised version.
> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/182
>
> "No Files. No HTML. Just Smalltalk code!"
>
> A builder: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/637
> The element hierarchy: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/840
>
>
> Discussion
> ---
>
> Comparison of 1 and 2
>
> In 1 you use a document model (DOM) which is independent from the
> representation in HTML code.
>
> Than you have a generator generating the HTML code. The DOM is
> actually quite close to the HTML DOM.
>
> The Pillar DOM is nicely supported in Pharo with the inspector.
>
> Neither 1 nor 2 actually take CSS into account. An issue which is
> important when you generate web pages.
>
> So from the Smalltalk data model point of view (web document modeling)
> you have a Smalltalk object which is then rendered on two output
> streams
>
> - HTML
> - CSS
>
> Things get interesting in particular if you want to generate
> responsive web sites.
> The you need to do more on the CSS side and with generating pictures as
> well.
>
> Regards
> Hannes
>
>>
>> -
>> Cheers,
>> Sean
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[H. Hirzel]

On 9/9/17, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
> I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but
> without
> loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?
>

Hello Sean


1.
One idea is _not_ to go for a HTML builder DSL but for a document
model plus a generator.
The generator is a visitor for the document object model.

There is the Pillar document model and a visitor already in place.

The current challenge  - actually it is not a challenge - but just
needs some time -  is to extract the Pillar document model (easy) and
the tests (needs more time)  so that it can be loaded as a stand-alone
package.

See a long discussion in a thread in August about including Pillar in the image.

The same then applies for the HTML generator. That is just a file-out
from an image which has the full Pillar loaded.

So IMHO it is not so much about inventing a new HTML builder DSL but
to "mold" exisiting infrastructure into shape.

This has the advantage that you can generate other representations easily.


2.
Another idea is to look at HttpView2 done 10 years ago and come up
with a revised version.
http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/182

"No Files. No HTML. Just Smalltalk code!"

A builder: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/637
The element hierarchy: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/840


Discussion
---

Comparison of 1 and 2

In 1 you use a document model (DOM) which is independent from the
representation in HTML code.

Than you have a generator generating the HTML code. The DOM is
actually quite close to the HTML DOM.

The Pillar DOM is nicely supported in Pharo with the inspector.

Neither 1 nor 2 actually take CSS into account. An issue which is
important when you generate web pages.

So from the Smalltalk data model point of view (web document modeling)
you have a Smalltalk object which is then rendered on two output
streams

- HTML
- CSS

Things get interesting in particular if you want to generate
responsive web sites.
The you need to do more on the CSS side and with generating pictures as well.

Regards
Hannes

>
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Stephane Ducasse]

Hi sean

I want the same :). Now I have to finish my lectures for within two
weeks and I should not read this mailing-list :)

I do not remember what we did in Pillar.
Now if you extract the canvas/builder from Seaside and rename it to
avoid conflict I'm all ears.

Stef

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 12:15 AM, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
> I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but without
> loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?
>
>
>
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

There is ZnHtmlOutputStream, not really a DSL, but it might help.

> On 9 Sep 2017, at 00:15, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
> 
> I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but without
> loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 

[Pharo-users] Standalone HTML Model

[Sean P. DeNigris]

I'd like to create HTML via a DSL, like Seaside's canvas builder, but without
loading a whole web framework. Any ideas?



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html