Re: Future of PicoLisp?

[Lindsay John Lawrence]

Picolisp has a release archive readily downloadable here...
http://software-lab.de/down.html.
In my limited experience with picolisp, it actually reminds me of sqlite  (
http://sqlite.org) in its approach...

"Small, Fast, Reliable. Chose any three"

Sqlite seems to have a particularly effective source management model and
an astonishingly active mailing list.
The only way to get the latest (or even moderately recent) version of
sqlite is to download a pre-compiled snapshot from the website or build it
yourself. Both very trivial tasks for the motivated.

The source repo for sqlite is Fossil (
http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/doc/trunk/www/index.wiki).
Fossil, written for sqlite, holds all the code, history and docs in a
sqlite database. How 'lisp' is that? ;)

Alex,

Picolisp has the wiki, vip, built in database all written in picolisp... is
an scm such a big leap? Just a thought :)

/Lindsay


On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Jakob Eriksson 
wrote:

>
>
> I would love for the public repo to be on github!
>
> I think for many, an open source project does not really exist,
> unless it is on Github. We should also try to resurrect somehow,
> the [picolisp] tag on Stack Overflow.
>
> Given that it is encouraged to put in official documentation in the
> form of Q/A on Stack Overflow, I think we could have a coordinated
> effort from here to do it.
>
>
>
>
> On 2017-02-20 18:15, Petr Gladkikh wrote:
> > I admit that I am a passerby here but my impression is that things
> > around PicoLisp feel closed and this is not about the code itself.
> > In particular, there seems to be no public source code repository so
> > source history can only be inferred somehow from releases. I see that
> > some people already try to mirror it (see,
> > e.g. https://github.com/taij33n/picolisp
> > ) but since it is not "official"
> > there's no development or associated discussions. Since revision control
> > is essential for any non-trivial project, the lack of it is surprising.
> > Also there's no public bug tracker. Instead I have to subscribe to this
> > list so it is hard to track what happened to issues.
> >
> > That said removing some friction for outsiders would help to keep things
> > running.
> >
> >
> > 2017-02-03 8:47 GMT+01:00 Alexander Burger  > >:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > the future of PicoLisp is dark. I'm not sure if it can survive in
> > packaged
> > distribution.
> >
> > Ubuntu doesn't support it any more, probably due to the PIE (position
> > independent executable) on x86-64.
> >
> > And at least on Android they seem to demand switching to Clang. The
> > 32-bit
> > versions of PicoLisp (pil32 and mini) which are written in C cannot
> > be compiled
> > on Clang, because Clang doesn't support dynamically allocated
> > arrays, which
> > pil32 depends on. As far as I notices, pil64 also has trouble on
> > Clang/Android.
> >
> > :( Alex
> > --
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de
> > ?subject=Unsubscribe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Petr Gladkikh
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>

Re: Future of PicoLisp?

[Christopher Howard]

Well, of course, you guys are free to do want you want to try and please
whomever you want. I'm just an actual user of picolisp. Whenever I find
that a project is on Github, I find the url for cloning the repository,
and then never use any of the project site features ever again (issue
tracker, etc.) Just take it as my $0.02 feedback if nothing else.

On 02/20/2017 10:31 AM, Jakob Eriksson wrote:
> 
> Another tradeoff is that there are very few people and projects
> on any site besides Github. This is the reality.
> 
> -- Jakob
> 

-- 
Christopher Howard, Computer Assistant
Alaska Satellite Internet
3239 La Ree Way, Fairbanks, AK 99709
907-451-0088 or 888-396-5623 (toll free)
fax: 888-260-3584
mailto:christop...@alaskasi.com
http://www.alaskasatelliteinternet.com
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Future of PicoLisp?

[Rowan Thorpe]

> On 02/20/2017 09:19 AM, Jakob Eriksson wrote:
> > I would love for the public repo to be on github!

I would love for it to be on some kind of public git repo too. I'm
mostly indifferent whether it's github/bitbucket/sourceforge/whatever,
but would just love to be able to pull/branch/rebase for quick
experimenting with the leading-edge source. More importantly in regard
to this thread, a lot of Debian packaging tools and methodologies (and
probably in other distros) are increasingly leveraging git to
streamline the packaging process (e.g.
http://honk.sigxcpu.org/projects/git-buildpackage/manual-html/man.gbp.html
and https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/notes/debian/git.html#combine),
making it easier for packagers (and less excuse for lag-time or
packaging bugs) when using an existing git-upstream, so a public git
repo would help keep picolisp more up-to-date in the distros. Also, I
think public git would make the "downloading -> exploring ->
contributing-patches" pipeline a lot faster and easier for
contributing to picolisp itself (even if the changes are still sent to
the mailing-list, at least they could be commit-ready patches
generated with git-format-patch, allowing merging or cherry-picking
them to be trivially easy and fast).

On 20 February 2017 at 20:46, Christopher Howard
 wrote:
> I'm sure my opinion has very little weight around here, but since other
> people are discussing it I want to put in a plug for Savannah (Non-GNU):
>
> https://savannah.nongnu.org/
>
> If you aren't willing to run the proprietary JavaScript on Github it
> becomes a real pain to work with. (Gets an F rating from FSF
> .)
> Includes Subversion and Git support.

..when thinking of free/libre/open github alternatives, and
particularly if the approval-wait of savannah is annoying, there is
also one of:

 A)
   1] self-host by running (free/open) gitlab -
https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce
   2] use their free repo-hosting service at - https://gitlab.com
 B)
   self-host by running (free/open) gogs - https://github.com/gogits/gogs
 C)
   self-host with one of the more minimal solutions like (free/open) gitweb, etc

I haven't looked at how strictly FSF-friendly gitlab.com is (librejs,
etc), but for sure it's a big improvement on github if you care about
privacy/control/librejs issues. gogs is interesting because it is very
lightweight, portable, and easy-maintenance (can even be hosted on a
raspberry pi or nas device), whereas gitlab is bigger and seems
equivalent to github in terms of bells-and-whistles (CI integration,
etc).

-- 
Rowan Thorpe

"A riot is the language of the unheard." - Dr. Martin Luther King
"There is a great difference between worry and concern. A
worried person sees a problem, and a concerned person solves a
problem." - Harold Stephens
"Ignorance requires no apologies when it presents questions
rather than assertions." - Michael Sierchio (OpenSSL mailing list)
"What we need more than an end to wars is an end to the
beginning of all wars." - Franklin Roosevelt
-- 
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Re: Future of PicoLisp?

[Jakob Eriksson]

On 2017-02-20 19:46, Christopher Howard wrote:

> The only tradeoffs with savannah nongnu is it sometimes takes them a few
> weeks to approve your project hosting, and they require you to put
> licensing information on each code file (a really good idea anyway).
> 

No. That is like saying that the only tradeoff with using GNU Social
instead of Twitter is that sometimes the messages may arrive a little
slow.  Another tradeoff is that there are very few people and projects
on any site besides Github. This is the reality.

-- Jakob
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Future of PicoLisp?

[Christopher Howard]

I'm sure my opinion has very little weight around here, but since other
people are discussing it I want to put in a plug for Savannah (Non-GNU):

https://savannah.nongnu.org/

If you aren't willing to run the proprietary JavaScript on Github it
becomes a real pain to work with. (Gets an F rating from FSF
.)
Includes Subversion and Git support.

The only tradeoffs with savannah nongnu is it sometimes takes them a few
weeks to approve your project hosting, and they require you to put
licensing information on each code file (a really good idea anyway).

On 02/20/2017 09:19 AM, Jakob Eriksson wrote:
> 
> 
> I would love for the public repo to be on github!
> 
> I think for many, an open source project does not really exist,
> unless it is on Github. We should also try to resurrect somehow,
> the [picolisp] tag on Stack Overflow.
> 
> Given that it is encouraged to put in official documentation in the
> form of Q/A on Stack Overflow, I think we could have a coordinated
> effort from here to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2017-02-20 18:15, Petr Gladkikh wrote:
>> I admit that I am a passerby here but my impression is that things
>> around PicoLisp feel closed and this is not about the code itself.
>> In particular, there seems to be no public source code repository so
>> source history can only be inferred somehow from releases. I see that
>> some people already try to mirror it (see,
>> e.g. https://github.com/taij33n/picolisp
>> ) but since it is not "official"
>> there's no development or associated discussions. Since revision control
>> is essential for any non-trivial project, the lack of it is surprising.
>> Also there's no public bug tracker. Instead I have to subscribe to this
>> list so it is hard to track what happened to issues. 
>>
>> That said removing some friction for outsiders would help to keep things
>> running.
>>
>>
>> 2017-02-03 8:47 GMT+01:00 Alexander Burger > >:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> the future of PicoLisp is dark. I'm not sure if it can survive in
>> packaged
>> distribution.
>>
>> Ubuntu doesn't support it any more, probably due to the PIE (position
>> independent executable) on x86-64.
>>
>> And at least on Android they seem to demand switching to Clang. The
>> 32-bit
>> versions of PicoLisp (pil32 and mini) which are written in C cannot
>> be compiled
>> on Clang, because Clang doesn't support dynamically allocated
>> arrays, which
>> pil32 depends on. As far as I notices, pil64 also has trouble on
>> Clang/Android.
>>
>> :( Alex
>> --
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de
>> ?subject=Unsubscribe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Petr Gladkikh

-- 
Christopher Howard, Computer Assistant
Alaska Satellite Internet
3239 La Ree Way, Fairbanks, AK 99709
907-451-0088 or 888-396-5623 (toll free)
fax: 888-260-3584
mailto:christop...@alaskasi.com
http://www.alaskasatelliteinternet.com
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Future of PicoLisp?

[Jakob Eriksson]

I would love for the public repo to be on github!

I think for many, an open source project does not really exist,
unless it is on Github. We should also try to resurrect somehow,
the [picolisp] tag on Stack Overflow.

Given that it is encouraged to put in official documentation in the
form of Q/A on Stack Overflow, I think we could have a coordinated
effort from here to do it.




On 2017-02-20 18:15, Petr Gladkikh wrote:
> I admit that I am a passerby here but my impression is that things
> around PicoLisp feel closed and this is not about the code itself.
> In particular, there seems to be no public source code repository so
> source history can only be inferred somehow from releases. I see that
> some people already try to mirror it (see,
> e.g. https://github.com/taij33n/picolisp
> ) but since it is not "official"
> there's no development or associated discussions. Since revision control
> is essential for any non-trivial project, the lack of it is surprising.
> Also there's no public bug tracker. Instead I have to subscribe to this
> list so it is hard to track what happened to issues. 
> 
> That said removing some friction for outsiders would help to keep things
> running.
> 
> 
> 2017-02-03 8:47 GMT+01:00 Alexander Burger  >:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> the future of PicoLisp is dark. I'm not sure if it can survive in
> packaged
> distribution.
> 
> Ubuntu doesn't support it any more, probably due to the PIE (position
> independent executable) on x86-64.
> 
> And at least on Android they seem to demand switching to Clang. The
> 32-bit
> versions of PicoLisp (pil32 and mini) which are written in C cannot
> be compiled
> on Clang, because Clang doesn't support dynamically allocated
> arrays, which
> pil32 depends on. As far as I notices, pil64 also has trouble on
> Clang/Android.
> 
> :( Alex
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de
> ?subject=Unsubscribe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Petr Gladkikh
-- 
UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe

Re: Future of PicoLisp?

[Petr Gladkikh]

I admit that I am a passerby here but my impression is that things around
PicoLisp feel closed and this is not about the code itself.
In particular, there seems to be no public source code repository so source
history can only be inferred somehow from releases. I see that some people
already try to mirror it (see, e.g. https://github.com/taij33n/picolisp)
but since it is not "official" there's no development or associated
discussions. Since revision control is essential for any non-trivial
project, the lack of it is surprising.
Also there's no public bug tracker. Instead I have to subscribe to this
list so it is hard to track what happened to issues.

That said removing some friction for outsiders would help to keep things
running.


2017-02-03 8:47 GMT+01:00 Alexander Burger :

> Hi all,
>
> the future of PicoLisp is dark. I'm not sure if it can survive in packaged
> distribution.
>
> Ubuntu doesn't support it any more, probably due to the PIE (position
> independent executable) on x86-64.
>
> And at least on Android they seem to demand switching to Clang. The 32-bit
> versions of PicoLisp (pil32 and mini) which are written in C cannot be
> compiled
> on Clang, because Clang doesn't support dynamically allocated arrays, which
> pil32 depends on. As far as I notices, pil64 also has trouble on
> Clang/Android.
>
> :( Alex
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>



-- 
Petr Gladkikh