Re: Current status of KDE for Lenny
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 09:08:37AM +, Pino Toscano wrote: > Alle martedì 22 luglio 2008, Pierre Habouzit ha scritto: > > > > Well, I have tried it at work for one day, and I'm not payed for > > reporting bugs. I had really no time for it, and I went back to kpdf. > > I've decided to wait for a more mature kde release so that the number of > > quirks goes down and that I can take 5 minutes for reporting the > > leftovers rather than a hour I don't have. > > I'll tell you what to do: simply, forget about Okular and about its > maintainer. Okular will _not_ even be mature enough for you, so no need to > even thinking about trying to use it in everyday work. It simply won't work. > This is a win-win solution: you avoid all the "annoyance" all around > something > you don't want, and I'll avoid trying to understand generic and "encrypted" > problems (?) from you. W-O-W ... You assume my goal is to destroy okular. It's not. Okular has no chances to be "good enough" for me before lenny is out, so I stated that I'd be sorry that kpdf would go. You are escalating it to something completely different. Once lenny is out, as kde 3.x will go, I definitely will report bugs because okular will by force be my sole choice. I prefer not doing that right now when KDE 4 is still such a moving target. Not everyone can be a beta-tester 24/7. And note that I never intended those remarks to go back to the Okular developers, my mails have always only be written with "what will Debian release with" in mind. That's why the mails were on the *Debian* Kde *Packaging* list in the first place. > > (4) I wasn't judging anyone in my previous mails, but now I am: if > > each time someones tells that they don't like okular you get > > outraged at this level, then you should really consider quitting. > > Quitting? Do you see "quitting" as rationale solution when you face people > with: > a) "your application sucks!" > b) "your application is annoying, but I cannot tell you why" > c) "i *have* foo bar in your application" > > My reply is: No. You absolutely don't get it. I wasn't saying that okular sucks, if you believe I did, look again. I said kpdf is still better, which is not really the same. You're so convinced I said it's an horrible application that you escalated the whole thing, but really, get a grip, I MERELY stated that “for now I still prefer kpdf”. So unless you believe is the worse application ever, in which case indeed, we can't talk to each other because I believe it's not, then I totally fail to see the offense here. So yes, if you're still that outraged, from simple remarks, you should do something about it, like taking vacations or sth similar. > Let me ask you a final question: what would _you_ do if you heard about > people > complaining about what you do (example, the packages you maintain), but you > get just generic complains about it, possibly referred indirectly by other > people? I shrug. > Then, whatever you reply to this, just take it as reply for all your > complains. That would be far better than your quite aggressive mails so far. -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O[EMAIL PROTECTED] OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgppkTk94FxXC.pgp Description: PGP signature -- http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/pkg-kde-talk
Re: Current status of KDE for Lenny
Alle martedì 22 luglio 2008, Pierre Habouzit ha scritto: > > > And there are quite a few quirks that are irritating beyond words, > > > when you work with huge PDFs files (lots of norms, POSIX documentation, > > > and whatnot) on a hourly basis. > > > > And do you hope that the "few quirks that are irritating" will > > automagically solve themselves during the night? > > I'll tell you what's "irritating": users that don't speak even if forced, > > but they do really complain (even a lot) about the state of things. This > > will NOT help us (and you probably know that). > > Well, I have tried it at work for one day, and I'm not payed for > reporting bugs. I had really no time for it, and I went back to kpdf. > I've decided to wait for a more mature kde release so that the number of > quirks goes down and that I can take 5 minutes for reporting the > leftovers rather than a hour I don't have. I'll tell you what to do: simply, forget about Okular and about its maintainer. Okular will _not_ even be mature enough for you, so no need to even thinking about trying to use it in everyday work. It simply won't work. This is a win-win solution: you avoid all the "annoyance" all around something you don't want, and I'll avoid trying to understand generic and "encrypted" problems (?) from you. > (2) I'm not _required_ to report bugs[0] Like I'm not _required_ to fix bugs, or I'm not _required_ to listen to users, or I'm not _required_ to try to make the applications I maintain better for some people. See, even if I would do any of the above, my attempts would simply die if users raise walls in front of them. > (4) I wasn't judging anyone in my previous mails, but now I am: if > each time someones tells that they don't like okular you get > outraged at this level, then you should really consider quitting. Quitting? Do you see "quitting" as rationale solution when you face people with: a) "your application sucks!" b) "your application is annoying, but I cannot tell you why" c) "i *have* foo bar in your application" My reply is: No. Let me ask you a final question: what would _you_ do if you heard about people complaining about what you do (example, the packages you maintain), but you get just generic complains about it, possibly referred indirectly by other people? Then, whatever you reply to this, just take it as reply for all your complains. -- Pino Toscano signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/pkg-kde-talk
Re: Current status of KDE for Lenny
On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 08:41:36PM +, Pino Toscano wrote: > Alle lunedì 21 luglio 2008, Pierre Habouzit ha scritto: > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 07:21:12PM +, Ana Guerrero wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 09:03:42PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 05:44:23PM +, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote: > > > > > On 2008-07-19, Ana Guerrero <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Hi! > > > > > > > > > > > > -okular, the new KDE 4 document viewer. (source split from KDE 4's > > > > > > kdegraphics) > > > > > > > > > > Is it indended to replace or accompany kpdf for Lenny? > > > > > > > > I hope not, okular isn't a decent replacement for kpdf for me yet. > > > > > > seriuosly? first time I have read somebody prefer kpdf over okular. > > > > Seriously: > > + navigation of hyperlinks is badly broken (doesn't jump in the proper > > places e.g.); > > Bug reported but never been able to reproduce myself. Well, it happens regularly enough to me, and pity you can't reproduce it, but it's a huge problem to navigate in documents that are thousands of pages big. > > + I *hate* the left widget with silly icons that eat horizontal space > > for no good reason, and miss the previous "sliding" widget that > > implemented the very same in kpdf, and it's a big no-go for me, I've > > a small screen on my laptop ; > > The "silly" icons have a reason for being there, but given what you said, > telling the reason is pointless. Anyway, 22px is a so huge problem? Yes, because of that, I cant have two okular side by side _and_ readable contents on my screen, with kpdf I can. Note that when reduced to their minimal size, I have to memorize what the icons are for, which is a regression from the sliding widget in kpdf where there is text I can read. > > And there are quite a few quirks that are irritating beyond words, > > when you work with huge PDFs files (lots of norms, POSIX documentation, > > and whatnot) on a hourly basis. > > And do you hope that the "few quirks that are irritating" will automagically > solve themselves during the night? > I'll tell you what's "irritating": users that don't speak even if forced, but > they do really complain (even a lot) about the state of things. This will NOT > help us (and you probably know that). Well, I have tried it at work for one day, and I'm not payed for reporting bugs. I had really no time for it, and I went back to kpdf. I've decided to wait for a more mature kde release so that the number of quirks goes down and that I can take 5 minutes for reporting the leftovers rather than a hour I don't have. > > + there are quite a few annoying glitches with the thumbnail > > navigation too, I don't recall which though. > > ? I seem to recall something with clicking on thumbnails that doesn't jump to the page, and scrolling that was horribly slow. > > Kpdf may lack a few fancy thingies, but the UI is overall more > > polished. > > Huge POV; many other users actually think the opposite. Probably, but I still hold it, even if it seems to annoy you. > > Like we say in france, the devil is in the details. okular is > > gross compared to what kpdf does for now. > > Cool with words, eh. It's not like we tried to improve it, to get "gross" > back. In fact that's a language issue, I meant rough, not gross. But still, there are indeed things that look better in okular: the gray shadow in the thumbnail area is a good idea e.g. Though, it's not yet polished enough for me. That's all. Note that I'm now an occasional KDE user now, I only use a couple of KDE apps, kpdf being among them. I don't know why you're irritated so much: (1) I wasn't complaining that okular was bad. It's not, I find it promising. I merely stated that kpdf was still better for me. (2) I'm not _required_ to report bugs[0], I do it when I've the time. Though since I didn't reported bugs, I didn't complained about okular taking time to be fixed. (3) I know what it feel when you worked hard on something and that after all it wasn't so good. I know it hurt pride and al. but really, the left icons are not a good UI. And I know I'm not the only one to think that. (4) I wasn't judging anyone in my previous mails, but now I am: if each time someones tells that they don't like okular you get outraged at this level, then you should really consider quitting. My Ice Cream vendor isn't annoyed when I say that I don't like his chocolate flavoured Ice Cream because it's too soft for me, in fact, it instead creates a new bitter flavor because he knows he'll have some clients that prefers this one. [0] reporting bugs is a huge work, it's not a fire and forget thing, you have to answer the developers, try new versions, try even sometimes patches and so on. It's very time consuming, and I know I won't have that time. There is nothing more annoying th
