Hi, folks.
I'm using the latest Plucker on my Zire 72, and I'd like to bind the
Voice Memo button (on the upper left-hand side of the device) to
"page-down", but can't see any way to do it.
Anyone have an idea?
Bill
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> Just get yourself Fink, and build Python, and you're done.
Actually, Python ships pre-installed on Mac OS X. No need to build it.
Bill
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How about fixing the "new format" to be backwards-compatible, instead?
I think compatibility of the format extensions are paramount.
Bill
> I found a critical problem in the new format when working on the
> viewer implementation. The problem is that the viewer will not be
> able to find the navig
Barry,
I like it.
Bill
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> The major problem back then (and today) is
> how to compose tours? Is it a feasible feature? I think it could be
> a useful feature even in its simplest form, though, e.g. when you
> have a toc to start with but each individual page doesn't include a
> link to the next/previous page then this fea
> As of Mac OS X version 10.2 (Jaguar), OS X ships with python as part of
> the OS. It is python version 2.2, and IIRC is customized to work fast on
> that OS.
As of Mac OS X 10.3 (Panther) it's Python 2.3.
Bill
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> However, code to indicate external and internal links differently
> will not be added to the viewer; that is a parser issue.
No, it's not. They can be typed differently in the data format, but
any decision as to how that difference will be displayed to the user
should be in the display program
> The only question is the file format. If someone can find a good place to
> put the next/previous record markers, and modify PyPlucker to output them,
> I will be very happy.
Yep, that's the major design question which no one could settle :-).
Once we know what the format is, we can build all k
Alexander,
We've discussed this ad nauseum in the past on this list (continuous
pages, rather than fragmentation), and have never reached consensus on
an acceptable design. If you'd like to re-read that discussion, and
describe your design, we could re-open that discussion.
I, for one, would lov
> Does PyPlucker maybe keep all the texts in RAM rather than saving them to
> a cache? Can this be fixed?
You'll find this discussed in the plucker-dev archives.
Bill
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Alexander,
Thanks for the suggestion.
> 3. I don't really know Python. So please tell me if there is something
> dumb in the patch.
It's hard to tell with the record-ID code. It took me a long time to
get it to work right, and I *do* know Python. In general, people
working on the Python
> Is there anywhere one can ask to get an "official" answer to such a
> question, as my question whether middle or final bytes can be zero?
Again, it depends on the character set encoding. You can't answer
that without restricting the usage to some set of character set
encodings. Currently, the
It depends on the multibyte encoding. However, in Plucker, we really
can't have them, since we use NUL to introduce function codes in the
text stream. I think you can count on this for text records in a
Plucker DB.
Bill
> > > 2. Can multi-byte encoded texts have nulls that do not signal the end
> > Why would there be a CRLF in html if there's a / tag instead?
>
> For human readability. But I had assumed, I guess wrongly, that all such
> things get stripped out by the distiller.
Or because you're in a region.
Bill
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> I propose that we make the soft hyphen character into a function rather
> than an actual character, and remove support for 0xA5 as a soft
> hyphen. Or am I misunderstanding something in the code?
The current code mainly just tries to pass bytes along, so that it
will work for various character
> Anyway, I tried writing out text using UTF-8 and UTF-16 and the
> documents all came out wrong in the Viewer. Actually I don't understand
> how the Viewer handles different character encodings(if it does at all).
> It displays different 8-bit encodings (Big-5, ISO-8859-2, KOI8-R) fine,
> as l
> The "metadata" record was designed to do a lot of this.
Never mind, I was thinking of the DB format, not the PalmOS implementation.
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The "metadata" record was designed to do a lot of this.
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> Yes, but it still won't give what iSiloX can give, since it's only going
> to give the two files in this example. What if one wants (and I must
> confess that this is not something I actually needed) to get two files,
> and, say, everything these two files link to, at depth 1 relative to each?
ch/fix description.
>
> > (I would also like to fix the bugs related to home document/netloc and
> > href attributes conataining "&"; patches for these have been posted, but
> > not checked in.)
>
> Sounds like all Python distiller work
Alexander,
I don't believe there is any particularly human-sensible method to the
order. What happens is that the distiller assigns relocation tags to
various things (image references and link references, mainly) as they
are encountered. They are fetched in either depth-first or
breadth-first or
Chris,
I think we should upgrade the Python parts of the system to Python
2.2; that is, require 2.2 or later for correct operation. We'd then
have access to much-improved HTTP support, and real support for
character sets that will allow us to do character sets "right".
Bill
Looks good so far. Seems to work on my OS X machine.
Bill
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> well, multirecord text records would be cool too :)
Yes, I agree. And we've discussed that extensively on this list,
several times. However, we've been unable to come to a consensus on
it. I'd also like to see that happen. But it has different problems,
and I think a different record design
> Ie, the last chunk in the row must be the same width of all the other
> chunks in the same column; and vice versa.
Right.
> Should Alt and Caption be represented in the header as an offset_to
> value, or directly in the header itself (by say 32 characters each?)
Offsets, I think. I've seen al
A couple of points:
* I'd like to include other elements of an image in the new multi-part
image record, such as the ALT tag, and perhaps a CAPTION text as well.
* Please call it DATA_MULTIIMAGE instead of DATA_MULTIRECORD.
* I think I'd pick 80x80 as the default chunk size.
Bill
__
> Now comes the problem. I have written the code in the viewer to
> support this but I have no idea how to handle support in the python
> parser or jpluck. Any volunteers? :)
I've been wanting to do this for years, so let's discuss the format a
bit more, and meanwhile I'll get started on the parse
> I have a fuzzy memory of Bill mentioning on the list that the parser had the
> capacity to crop
> out a specified section of an image (in the capacity to crop to some 150x150 part of
> a big
> image and show it on the palm, instead of shinking the whole image to 150x150). I
> think that is
Great! Thanks, I'll try it out.
Bill
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> For the tools that are available, are they implicitly re-enabled?
Yes, for the sub-items for which tools are available, they become
implicitly enabled. The rule is, configure for everything which can
be worked on, and omit that which can't be.
Bill
> Ok, let me state that a bit better... why do we check for Netscape,
> which seems to pass on my system (which has no Netscape) and then do nothing
> with it?
Because what looked like a good idea at the time later seemed to be
bogus to me. I think we could remove netscape4-plucker-helper.i
> Could we update the format doc to say that a 0x5c (multiple embedded image
> tag) needs a 0x08 (anchor ends) after it? I wouldn't think that it would
> since I didn't think there was any text in an image tag, i.e.
> but it does need one to end the link to the big image.
It could only be a hin
I'm currently using .plkr as an extension for Plucker documents.
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Good with me.
> We should also make the migration to AC_PREREQ(2.53) as well, as
> mentioned last week or so, and deprecate our use of 2.13.
>
>
> d.
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> The correct thing to do is keep track of the temp
> file names, and delete them explicitly when you are done with them.
> This can even be done automagically by using object finalization.
Even better, we can start using Python 2.x. This allows us to use the
TemporaryFile class in the standard m
> This can even be done automagically by using object finalization.
To wit:
import sys, os
class Tempfilename:
def __init__(self):
import tempfile
self.__filepath = tempfile.mktemp()
def path(self):
return self.__filepath
def __del__(self):
if os.p
> Python will create temp files (tempdir is /var/tmp on linux unless you
> specifically change it, /tmp on Winders I think) with a unique name for
> each group. This code in (the new) Spider.py will delete any that exist:
Chris, this is a dangerously buggy hack. If you have two copies of
the
> I realize you're Pocket PC, but Plucker is Palm-oriented.
Not really. The format is pretty general. I'm using it quite a bit
on Linux with the GTK viewer.
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I've incorporated the two suggested fixes to autoconf.in.
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Thanks, I'll fix that too.
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> The other solution, which I've suggested before, is to declare a
> macro to require a specific version or later, i.e.:
>
> AC_PREREQ(2.53)
That's probably a good idea in any case.
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> configure.in:118: AC_ARG_VAR(CLASSPATH, [Used to determine the Java
> classpath to use in building the Java distiller])
Yes, it looks like AC_ARG_VAR crept in. I think we should stick to
using 2.13 for now, too. I'll fix it. Not sure what to say about the
cross-compiling warning.
Bill
I've updated a few files to make the Java version of the distiller
build with the official release version of JIU 0.10.0. I was working
with a pre-release version, and a few API details changed.
In particular:
configure.in -- enhanced support for finding Jython and JIU properly
parser/pytho
Dave,
I like the general idea. I think that getting the GenericParser class
right might be a bit tricky, but worth trying. Isn't it really about
text classes, though? There's a similar scheme in ImageParser for
image types, though there the separator is the image manipulation
tool, rather than
There are probably some things Plucker could learn from micro-reader.
See the review (a good overview) at
http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/column030204.htm.
I rather like the bit about automagically parsing PG texts. I could
probably add that quite easily to Plucker.
Bill
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> Seems to work okay. I think there then needs to be an addition to the
> pluckerini file to give the location of the wvware (or other) program.
Yes, that sounds right. There should probably be a default of some
kind in PyPlucker/__init__.py.in, as well.
Bill
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Sure, let's put this in the Python distiller, so that it will work
with the Java version of that distiller, too. I'm not crazy about
doing it with shell scripts.
The right way to approach it might be to add a new couple of lines
to PyPlucker/Parser.py, and add a new file containing the WordParser
> Is anyone interested in having WAP support? Should I post a patch of
> what I've done?
Yes, I'd be very interested in looking at it.
> Which python module should be used: sax, dom, the old xmllib, or sgmllib
> (as sgmllib would still parse invalid xml documents, no?).
I've been using sax and
Eugene,
You can certainly install in non-root locations just by following the
directions about the unix/install-plucker script. Just give it a
location under your home directory. You'll have to add the bin
subdirectory of that location to your PATH to use the distiller, but
that's it.
Bill
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> Like many people, I resent having to use a different version of Python for
> Plucker than everything else on my system. Today, I stumbled across the
> change suggested by jtamboli that seems to allow Plucker to work under
> Python 2.2 at
> http://gnu-designs.com/bugs/view_bug_advanced_page.php?f
Start with
http://www.mail-archive.com/plucker-dev@rubberchicken.org/msg01287.html.
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> Does anyone remember, off the top of their heads, the
> objections to (or problems with) the "New Function Code"
> approach? It seems like a fairly decent design to me.
The question is what to put in the new function code. I wanted the
Palm viewer to present the logical page by reading one rec
> OR, the high powered reader could just detect that the document ends
> with an anchor surrounding the "Click here" and skip that part and
> automajically append the referenced doc (and leave off the "Click here and
> anchor at the beginning)???
That's what my reader, and explode, both do.
B
> Wouldn't it be easier to add a new function type which is a jump over the
> rest of the record seamlessly to some part of another record. If you put
> this just in front of the "Click here..." and make it jump to just after
> "Click here..." then current reader which don't understand it will cont
> Any other ideas for handling extended text (beyond
> 32k w/o the "click here for next part" etc) and graphics (beyond 60kb)?
I agree. I think we should do something like adding some new record
types to handle larger images and larger text segments.
The larger images record type would point to
> However, given that the pdb format is artificial on the Zaurus in the first
> place, would there be huge opposition to having a more "heavy-weight"
> version of Plucker for non-Palm devices with a modified database format?
Yes! Don't screw with the DB format, please!
> So does this sound reaso
> One visual difference - doing a pluck of the New York Times palm site
> http://archive.nytimes.com/nytimes-partners/omnisky/main.html results in
> the icons on the far right, while their labels are on the left. Using
> Plucker/Desktop they are always on the left, aligned with their labels.
P
> I'm thinking that the best way to 'inline' tables would be to add a
> function code for a table. When the viewer gets it, it can run
> GetTableMetrics() to get the size of the table and decide whether to
> inline or link it. (The size isn't known 'til it's parsed with the viewer's
> fonts.
T
Chris,
Just a note on your great table work. If you looked at the DBFormat
page, you'll see that record types 11 and 12 are already in use, for
an extension I'm working on. Please move them to 13 and 14.
Otherwise, nice work!
Bill
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Great work, Alex! I'll fold it in if I can figure out the English.
> It is not 100% right hyphenations, but we don't need to make
> hyphenations for publishers.
Well, I think we should *try* to get it right. Besides, I think we
should make hyphenations for publishers. I don't want to beam on
Interesting. Sounds like a 2.2 issue. I'll look into it.
Bill
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Sounds OK to me.
Bill
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> Could be useful though if someone wants to do a native PocketPC port
> of Plucker, perhaps using Bill J.'s explode library as the base.
I wouldn't advise that approach. I'd port the GTK+ viewer to MFC or
whatever instead.
Bill
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Probably a bug.
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> >I don't know that I know what "proper alignment" of the
> > text should be, though.
>
> With the proper alignment of the text in a list item I mean that the bullet
> stands out and that the text aligns as a separate block next to it. Just
> look in a browser at an unordered list item that spans
> What I am saying is that by hardcoding absolute pixels for indentation - by
> setting the left and right margin - the resulting document will not be
> compatible across platforms and different resolutions.
...
> In other words, creating indentations for bulleted or numbered lists using
> hardco
Just to complete this answer, the list of Unicode characters
translated properly for the Latin-1 PalmOS viewer lives in
viewer/os.c. Currently, the list includes
en-dash and em-dash
left or right single or double quotation mark
bullet
horizontal ellipsis
trade-mark sign
> I also think it is incorrect rendering.
> Is there an alternative way to have a 1st column of preformatted font, and the rest
>of the line
> in normal font in the current parser (or is CSS required?)
Whoa! "column" is a loaded phrase.
I'd think
one this is the rest of this line
should
Seems wrong to me. Please file a bug report.
Bill
>
> a
> b
> c
>
> is displayed as
>
> a b c
>
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Laurens writes:
> Why does the Python parser not use the middle dot (#183 in the ISO-8859-1
> set) for the bullet? It generates this small o that just looks out-of-place.
> The Plucker document specification states that text records are a stream of
> ISO-8859-1 characters, so why not use the middle
The current CVS version of the viewer should in fact use middle-dot; I
put that code in myself.
Bill
> Why does the Python parser not use the middle dot (#183 in the ISO-8859-1
> set) for the bullet? It generates this small o that just looks out-of-place.
> The Plucker document specification stat
> As Plucker continues to rise, I would offer that Plucker chooses the
> best practices, in the form of documented W3C and ISO standards,
> instead of picking up the bad practices of the withering commercial
> off-line browsers.
Indeed. I'm spending my time working on CSS support, not worrying
ab
> If you started to use a differet system for communication then I
> can point out one major disadvantage:
>
> - some core developers will be missing
I'm with Michael on this one.
Bill
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Please add a feature request to the bug tracker.
> Wesley Mason wrote:
> > Ok...
> >
> > Can we, for argument sake, in the parser have it translate the
> > pods://avantgo/back link to a link to the prior page?
> >
> > I think this solves alot of the problems.
>
> I totally agree. This is the be
> Can we, for argument sake, in the parser have it translate the
> pods://avantgo/back link to a link to the prior page?
>
> I think this solves alot of the problems.
It would if the distiller kept that info, but it doesn't (and it would
be very difficult to keep it correctly, since the order in
Robert,
I've installed (temporarily) wxGTK 2.3.3 on my Linux box, and tried
again. Here's what I run into (again, with gcc 2.96, which is what
comes with RH 7.3), after I put some newlines at the end of some files.
Bill
% make
c++ -c -g -O2 `wx-config --cxxflags` -o checkbox_message_dialog.o
So I've tried on both MacOS X and Linux to build the desktop, failing
both times. The compilation lines are identical to those used in
the samples/minimal example, but don't work.
Here's the failure on RH Linux 7.3 (using gcc 2.96) and wxWindows
2.2.9 (the latest stable version), with the wxGTK a
> > Anyway, if you don't want to remove it manually then just add a '-f'
> > flag to "@$(LN_S) $(LANGDIR)/$*.h lang.h" (or remove the lang.h file
> > before creating the symlink) and you will never have problems with
> > lang.h being left behind again.
>
> Although I don't like having a forced-sym
> > the PalmOS viewer does not check to see if the environment permits
> > [it] to be built.
>
> Bollocks!
>
> If it didn't check the environment then why are you complaining that
> it "errors out"?
I was temporarily confused by the movement of the configuration code
from the top-level configure
I've added this to the Format specification.
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2002, Tim Wentford wrote:
>
> > Does this imply that the records are guaranteed to be stored in record id
> > order so that I can do the same in the Zaurus reader
>
> The PalmOS viewer wouldn't work unless they were stored in order.
Yes, that's what I was driving at. In the current CVS version of
configure.in, various things that are enabled by default (the PalmOS
viewer, the desktop, the manual) do not check to see if the
environment permits them to be built. I think the simplest thing to
do is to disable them by default, a
So, the rule is now to run "autoreconf" instead of "autogen.sh"?
OK, I'll change my notes on configuration. Though I note that all
autoreconf does for me is to run autoconf.
Bill
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figure --enable-palmosbuild", then
perhaps an error conclusion is appropriate.
Bill
> On Mon, Nov 11, 2002, Bill Janssen wrote:
> > why would we want a configuration script that errors out, instead
> > of completing?
>
> If you say that you want to build the viewer a
> Don't put it in javahome. A jdk or jre upgrade will break you.
>
> I put jars in 1 of 2 places:
> 1. local lib directory (myapp/lib, eg)
> 2. /usr/local/classes
Neither my RH 7.3 machine or my MacOS X.2.1 machine seem to have
/usr/local/classes/. Is there no standard place in Java for this
> to do java -jar myapp.jar, you need to add this to your manifest:
> Main-Class: org.mine.mymainclass
Yes, this is already done. I've updated the Makefile.in and top-level
configure.in; when we iron out the other changes to configure.in I'll
check those in.
Bill
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Chris,
I use autogen.sh in the top-level directory.
Bill
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> > during the configuration process, aborting the configuration even
> > though there are other useful subdirectories which *can* be built.
>
> If you don't have the tools to build the viewer then use the
> --disable-palmosbuild option...
Maybe I'm just thick today... Seems to me that the confi
Robert,
I've built and installed wxMac, and am trying to build the desktop.
I configure with the desktopbuild enabled, cd to plucker_desktop, and
type make:
% make
c++ -g -O2 `wx-config --cflags` -c -o checkbox_message_dialog.o
checkbox_message_dialog.cpp
checkbox_message_dialog.h:60: stora
I've having problems with the configuration script. Basically, for
several subdirectories, it doesn't properly detect that the tools
necessary for building them are absent, and the "make" phase descends
to their subdirectory and attempts to build them -- breaking badly
when it fails. In particula
I've added Bill's leak-fixes to the explode code, and modified
plkr_CloseDoc so that it now frees the doc handle (something I
originally intended, but apparently forgot :-). Checked in.
I'm still thinking about the library version of explode...
Bill
__
> I also made a change to the
> I've split up explode so I can use it in the viewer as a library. I've
> attached the files in case you'd like to update the main files.
Bill,
It looks like you've essentially put most of the code into util.c and
just kept main() in explode.c. Is this right? Did you make the
necessary change
> I'm not sure about it being available for the java -jar command though.
I thought for the java -jar command I'd put in a little shell script
that would just do that. Something like
#!/bin/sh
/usr/java/jre/bin/java -jar /usr/java/jre/lib/ext/plucker-build.jar $*
or whatever the right paths
> For JDK >= 1.2 I would want it in $(JAVAHOME)/jre/lib/ext. That usually
> makes it available without having to add it the classpath. I'm not sure
> about it being available for the java -jar command though.
My JAVAHOME (MacOS X 10.2, Java 1.3.1) doesn't have a jre
subdirectory. In fact, there
I'm working on the Makefiles, and I need to know where to install
plucker-build.jar once I've built it. Would $(JAVAHOME)/lib be the
right place? Any Java hackers out there know the answer to this one?
Bill
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> The Desktop bypasses it and just calls the python script directly,
> since the Windows API is [still] deficient in regards to killing a
> process. The Microsoft API only allows proper killing of a process
> by sending a close event to a window, and a windowless application
> obviously has no wind
> OK, but I'm sorry I don't know the "standard" way to make Makefile from
> Makefile.in.
I do a top-level configure, which makes all the Makefiles. After
that, if you modify the Makefile.in, just doing "make Makefile" in
that directory will work.
Bill
__
> My alternative idea is to introduce "start/stop relative y-offset"
> functions which define the offset from the current baseline of the
> font by the argument value proportional to the current font
> height.(e.g. 64 means full height higher, -32 means half height lower,
> etc.)
I'm working
> I thought you said earlier that I could pass any of the parameters as null.
> I tried passing argument as null, and the parser seems to throw an
> exception. I'd like to pass all the parameters in the config, but it seems
> I need to pass the -N and -P parameters as arguments.
There's a small b
Cool! And we can fix this limitation when we actually support
stylesheets.
Bill
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