[python-committers] Re: Voting for 2021 Steering Council Election (2022 term) is now open

[Carol Willing]

Just a friendly reminder to cast your ballot for the Steering Council Election 
(2022 term).

Voting will close at 12:00 UTC on December 16th.
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[python-committers] Re: Erlend Aasland is now a member of Python Triage team

[Carol Willing]

Congrats Erland :D

Thanks for mentoring too, Dong-hee.
On May 7, 2021, 10:39 AM -0700, Dong-hee Na , wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am very happy to share that Erlend Aasland is now a member of the Python 
> Triage team.
> https://github.com/python/core-workflow/issues/402
>
> Erlend improved the sqlite3 module for the recent period and he shows notable 
> knowledge about sqlite3. So I believe that his contribution will enhance the 
> CPython project and I think that he is well deserved to get triage permission.
> I am very looking forward to his future work :)
> https://github.com/python/cpython/commits?author=erlend-aasland
>
> I am going to help his new responsibility like what I got from my mentor.
> Welcome, Erlend!
> And thanks to everyone who helps me with this process.
> (Especially for Mariatta, Victor, Ee, Zack, Stéphane)
>
>
>
>
>
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[python-committers] Re: Ken Jin got the bug triage permission

[Carol Willing]

Congrats Ken! You've been doing great work. Looking forward to continuing to 
work with you :D

Carol
On Apr 11, 2021, 10:31 AM -0700, Pablo Galindo Salgado , 
wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I started to mentor Ken Jin (Fidget-Spinner on Github) and I gave him bug 
> triage permission on bpo (soon on GitHub as well) :
>
> https://github.com/python/core-workflow/issues/396
>
> He got 39 commits merged into master:
>
> https://github.com/python/cpython/commits?author=Fidget-Spinner
>
> In a total of 48 PRs (including manual backports):
>
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=is%3Apr+author%3AFidget-Spinner+is%3Amerged+
>
> He has made great progress in learning the CPython workflow, CPython 
> internals and how to keep things maintainable
> and backwards compatible so I decided to give him bug triage permission. I 
> will continue mentoring him and I will send him
> instructions on how to triage bugs and links to the relevant sections of the 
> devguide. I ask him to ask me before closing bugs
> for the first weeks.
>
> Congrats Ken Jin ✨  ✨!
>
> Regards from sunny London,
> Pablo Galindo Salgado
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[python-committers] Re: New Python Triage members: Irit Katriel and Andre Delfino

[Carol Willing]

Congrats. Thanks for your time and effort with Python.

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:15 PM Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> Welcome Irit and Andre!
>
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:42 PM Mariatta  wrote:
>
>> This week, we granted bug triage permissions to two new members: Irit
>> Katriel[1] and Andre Delfino[2].
>>
>> Irit has been active commenting on issues on the bug tracker and has
>> helped move the issues along. She is also actively participating in our
>> sprint this week.
>>
>> Andre already has the Developer role on bpo. Andre has been contributing
>> to CPython for more than two years, has made lots of pull requests, many of
>> them merged, and is very familiar with our workflow.
>>
>> Thank you Irit and Andre for all the work you do!
>>
>> The requests for triage role:
>> [1] https://github.com/python/core-workflow/issues/378
>> [2] https://github.com/python/core-workflow/issues/379
>>
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>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
> 
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[python-committers] Re: Travis CI is no longer mandatory on Python pull requests

[Carol Willing]

We've largely moved away from Travis for Jupyter testing in favor of Azure
pipelines and CircleCI as Travis was becoming increasingly slow and timing
out.

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 11:03 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Sometimes, when you reschedule a build in Travis CI, a PR gets *two*
> Travis CI jobs instead of one, and the first one remains stale
> forever. There are multiple issues with Travis CI.
>
> Victor
>
> Le sam. 17 oct. 2020 à 19:58, Larry Hastings  a écrit
> :
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know how the configuration on this stuff works.  But my dim
> understanding is: some automation from Github (that we own / configure /
> wrote) notices that we have a new checkin on a PR and kicks off the Travis
> CI build.  The problem is that sometimes the status of the Travis CI build
> doesn't get reported back.
> >
> > It seems to me that this is a race condition.  You don't usually lose
> the race, and so usually everything is fine.  But it's super frustrating on
> the rare occasion when you do lose the race, because you're stuck.  You
> can't do anything to fix it.
> >
> > But that itself suggests the solution--when a user loses the race, let
> the user retry.  If we simply had a "restart Travis CI job" button
> somewhere, I think that'd be a good-enough "Band-Aid" over the problem that
> we could live with it for a long long time.  Long enough maybe for someone
> to fix the bug!  Or for someone to replace Travis CI with something less
> race-condition-y!
> >
> >
> > /arry
> >
> > On 10/16/20 1:41 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Python has no mandatory Linux CI job on pull requests anymore. Right
> > now Windows (x64) remains the only mandatory job. Please be careful to
> > manually check other CI before merging a PR.
> >
> > --
> >
> > We had to deal with at least 3 different issues on the Travis CI over
> > the last 6 months. The latest one (3rd issue) is on the Travis CI side
> > and is known for months. Sometimes, a Travis CI build completes but
> > the GitHub pull request is never updated. Since Travis CI was
> > mandatory, it was never possible to merge some pull requests. I also
> > noticed a 4th bug, sometimes a PR gets *two* Travis CI jobs on a PR
> > for the same Travis CI build, only one is updated, and so again, the
> > PR cannot be merged.
> >
> > For all these reasons, Travis CI was made optional.
> >
> > I would be nice to have a mandatory Linux job: "Tests / Ubuntu
> > (pull_request)" is a good candidate. But I didn't check if it's
> > reliable or not.
> >
> > See https://github.com/python/core-workflow/issues/377 for the
> discussion.
> >
> > Note: if someone manages to fix all Travis CI issues, we can
> > reconsider making it mandatory again. But it seems like most people
> > who tried (included me) are tired or bored by Travis CI.
> >
> > Victor
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
>
>
> --
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
> ___
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[python-committers] Re: Batuhan Taskaya got the bug triage permission

[Carol Willing]

Congrats Batuhan! Thanks for contributing to CPython :D

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 12:59 PM Pablo Galindo Salgado 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have been mentoring Batuhan Taskaya ("BTaskaya" on BPO, "isidentical" on
> GitHub) for
> the past few months. We have been working closely together on some
> features as "ast.unparse",
> many bugfixes and documentation improvements. He has around  27 commits
> merged in CPython
> (master branch) and he has been helping to triage and debugging some
> issues on BPO.
>
> He has made great progress in learning the CPython workflow, CPython
> internals and how to keep
> things maintainable and backwards compatible so I decided to give him bug
> triage permission.
>
> I will continue mentoring him and I will send him instructions on how to
> triage bugs and links to the
> relevant sections of the devguide. I ask him to ask me before closing bugs
> for the first weeks.
>
> Congrats, Batuhan!
> ___
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> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>


-- 
*Carol Willing*

Willing Consulting <https://willingconsulting.com>

*Signature strengths*
*Empathy - Relator - Ideation - Strategic - Learner*
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[python-committers] Re: What it's like being on the steering council

[Carol Willing]

If you are thinking about Steering Council nominations, I've written a blog 
post that discusses how we have structured our weekly meetings and what 
resources are available to learn more: 
https://www.willingconsulting.com/post/2019-11-02-python-steering-retro/
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[python-committers] Re: Welcome Abhilash Raj to the Python core team!

[Carol Willing]

Welcome Abhilash! Congrats :D

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 3:03 PM Barry Warsaw  wrote:

> Congratulations and welcome Abhilash!  Thanks Brett for setting him up,
> and thanks everyone who voted.
>
> -Barry
>
> > On Aug 6, 2019, at 14:19, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> >
> > Assuming I didn't mess anything up, Abhilash is now set up!
> > ___
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> > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
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>


-- 
*Carol Willing*

Willing Consulting <https://willingconsulting.com>

*Signature strengths*
*Empathy - Relator - Ideation - Strategic - Learner*
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[python-committers] Re: Steering Council Update for July 2019

[Carol Willing]

Sorry for the incorrect link. Here is the corrected link:

https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/master/updates/2019-07-08_steering-council-update.md

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, at 7:16 AM, Carol Willing wrote:
> I've posted an update from the Steering Council to our repo:

> https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/master/updates/2019-07-08_steering-council
> 
> I will also link to this on python-dev and on Discourse (discuss.python.org ).

> 
> For completeness, below is the full text.
> 
> 
> # Steering Council Update


## Date: 2019-07-08

Steering Council updates will be posted irregularly and as needed.
We provide these updates to foster open and transparent communication about
Steering Council activity. We strive to post at least once every month.


# Message from the Steering Council

Sorry we've been silent for a while! With PyCon in Cleveland, the Language
Summit, Sprints, PEP activity, and a Python 3.8 beta release, it's been a busy
and productive May and June. Thank you all for your contributions. Below are
some of the outcomes of our weekly Steering Council conversations.

---

## Mandate

This section organizes Steering Council (SC) activity and projects
using the mandates listed in PEP 13.


### Language

> Maintain the quality and stability of the Python language and CPython 
> interpreter

- Inspired by Russell Keith-Magee's PyCon keynote about Black Swan events, the
  Steering Council is looking at what may impact Python for the next
  decade. We have been discussing this within the Steering Council and writing
  up some thoughts on major challenges facing Python. We'll continue to edit
  and polish this vision document and share it when we are ready for wider 
comment.


### Contributors

> Make contributing as accessible, inclusive, and sustainable as possible

- **Communications channels:** We are very pleased with the move of
  python-dev, etc. to Mailman 3. We now have a modern UI and easy search across
  mailing lists.

  Just a reminder to recap where announcements and conversations are taking 
place:

  - To reach core committers specifically, we will use
python-committers@python.org.

  - To reach the entire Python developer community, we will use
python-...@python.org.

  - For specific requests to the SC (e.g., PEP reviews), please use
our public GitHub tracker at 
https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues.

  - To reach just the SC, you can email us at
steering-coun...@python.org.

  - We will also occasionally use Discourse, at
https://discuss.python.org (for example, Discourse is useful for
polls and votes).


### PEPs

> Establish appropriate decision-making processes for PEPs

- To request a PEP review, please file an issue on the
  [SC issue tracker](https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues).

PEP highlights include:

- PEP 570, "Python Positional-Only Parameters", by Larry Hastings, Pablo
  Galindo and others. *Appointed Guido van Rossum as BD.* "Completed."
- PEP 574, "Pickle protocol 5 with out-of-band data", Antoine Pitrou.
  *Appointed Nick Coghlan as BD.* "Marked Final."
- PEPs 576, 579, 580, 590 (competing PEPs on C function call optimizations by
  Mark Shannon and Jeroen Demeyer; note that PEP 576 is withdrawn in favor of
  PEP 590). *Appointed Petr Viktorin as BD.* "Accepted 590."
- PEP 578, "Python Runtime Audit Hooks", Steve Dower.
  *Appointed Christian Heimes as BD.* "Landed, about to be marked Final."


### Interaction with PSF

> Formalize and maintain the relationship between the core team and the PSF

- We began discussions about fundraising ideas for CPython projects and 
administrative support.

- A [donation 
page]([https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/](https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/))
 was created by the PSF and was linked from the
 [CPython 
repo]([https://github.com/python/cpython](https://github.com/python/cpython)). 
Any funds that are donated will be used for Core Developers to attend the core 
development sprints (to start; future possibilities are dependent on the amount 
of funds gathered).

- At the Steering Council's recommendation, the PSF also is looking at hiring a 
Project Manager to manage communication and
  some logistics for the 2020 Python 2.7 End of Life.

- The PSF Code of Conduct Workgroup is working on a revision of the CoC and
  its approval by the PSF board. Brett and Carol serve on the Workgroup.


### Governance

> Seek consensus among contributors and the core team before acting in a formal 
> capacity,

> Act as a "court of final appeal" for decisions where all other methods have 
> failed.

- The weekly SC meeting cadence (Tuesdays 3-4pm US West Coast time) has been
  working out well.

---


## Reference

This reference section summarizes the Steering Council's mandate and powers.


### Mandate (PEP 1

[python-committers] Steering Council Update for July 2019

[Carol Willing]

I've posted an update from the Steering Council to our repo:

https://github.com/python/steering-council/blob/master/updates/2019-07-08_steering-council

I will also link to this on python-dev and on Discourse (discuss.python.org ).


For completeness, below is the full text.


# Steering Council Update


## Date: 2019-07-08

Steering Council updates will be posted irregularly and as needed.
We provide these updates to foster open and transparent communication about
Steering Council activity. We strive to post at least once every month.


# Message from the Steering Council

Sorry we've been silent for a while! With PyCon in Cleveland, the Language
Summit, Sprints, PEP activity, and a Python 3.8 beta release, it's been a busy
and productive May and June. Thank you all for your contributions. Below are
some of the outcomes of our weekly Steering Council conversations.

---

## Mandate

This section organizes Steering Council (SC) activity and projects
using the mandates listed in PEP 13.


### Language

> Maintain the quality and stability of the Python language and CPython 
> interpreter

- Inspired by Russell Keith-Magee's PyCon keynote about Black Swan events, the
  Steering Council is looking at what may impact Python for the next
  decade. We have been discussing this within the Steering Council and writing
  up some thoughts on major challenges facing Python. We'll continue to edit
  and polish this vision document and share it when we are ready for wider 
comment.


### Contributors

> Make contributing as accessible, inclusive, and sustainable as possible

- **Communications channels:** We are very pleased with the move of
  python-dev, etc. to Mailman 3. We now have a modern UI and easy search across
  mailing lists.

  Just a reminder to recap where announcements and conversations are taking 
place:

  - To reach core committers specifically, we will use
python-committers@python.org.

  - To reach the entire Python developer community, we will use
python-...@python.org.

  - For specific requests to the SC (e.g., PEP reviews), please use
our public GitHub tracker at 
https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues.

  - To reach just the SC, you can email us at
steering-coun...@python.org.

  - We will also occasionally use Discourse, at
https://discuss.python.org (for example, Discourse is useful for
polls and votes).


### PEPs

> Establish appropriate decision-making processes for PEPs

- To request a PEP review, please file an issue on the
  [SC issue tracker](https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues).

PEP highlights include:

- PEP 570, "Python Positional-Only Parameters", by Larry Hastings, Pablo
  Galindo and others. *Appointed Guido van Rossum as BD.* "Completed."
- PEP 574, "Pickle protocol 5 with out-of-band data", Antoine Pitrou.
  *Appointed Nick Coghlan as BD.* "Marked Final."
- PEPs 576, 579, 580, 590 (competing PEPs on C function call optimizations by
  Mark Shannon and Jeroen Demeyer; note that PEP 576 is withdrawn in favor of
  PEP 590). *Appointed Petr Viktorin as BD.* "Accepted 590."
- PEP 578, "Python Runtime Audit Hooks", Steve Dower.
  *Appointed Christian Heimes as BD.* "Landed, about to be marked Final."


### Interaction with PSF

> Formalize and maintain the relationship between the core team and the PSF

- We began discussions about fundraising ideas for CPython projects and 
administrative support.

- A [donation 
page]([https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/](https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/))
 was created by the PSF and was linked from the
 [CPython 
repo]([https://github.com/python/cpython](https://github.com/python/cpython)). 
Any funds that are donated will be used for Core Developers to attend the core 
development sprints (to start; future possibilities are dependent on the amount 
of funds gathered).

- At the Steering Council's recommendation, the PSF also is looking at hiring a 
Project Manager to manage communication and
  some logistics for the 2020 Python 2.7 End of Life.

- The PSF Code of Conduct Workgroup is working on a revision of the CoC and
  its approval by the PSF board. Brett and Carol serve on the Workgroup.


### Governance

> Seek consensus among contributors and the core team before acting in a formal 
> capacity,

> Act as a "court of final appeal" for decisions where all other methods have 
> failed.

- The weekly SC meeting cadence (Tuesdays 3-4pm US West Coast time) has been
  working out well.

---


## Reference

This reference section summarizes the Steering Council's mandate and powers.


### Mandate (PEP 13)

The steering council shall work to:

- Maintain the quality and stability of the Python language and
  CPython interpreter,
- Make contributing as accessible, inclusive, and sustainable as
  possible,
- Formalize and maintain the relationship between the core team and
  the PSF,
- Establish appropriate decision-making processes for PEPs,
- Seek consensus among 

[python-committers] Re: Welcome Paul Ganssle to the Python core team!

[Carol Willing]

Welcome and congratulations Paul :D

On Sun, Jun 16, 2019 at 12:53 PM Paul Moore  wrote:

> Congratulations, and welcome Paul!
>
> On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 at 20:12, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> >
> > Assuming I didn't mess up, Paul should be set up appropriately at this
> point.
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[python-committers] Re: Zackery Spytz got the bug triage permission

[Carol Willing]

Congrats Zackery! Thanks for the contributions too.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 3:12 PM Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I decided to give more responsibilities to Zackery Spytz as a reward
> for his hard commitment over the last year and a half into Python: I
> gave him the bug triage permission.
>
> He managed to get not less than 111 changes merged into the master
> branch since February 2018!
> https://github.com/python/cpython/commits?author=ZackerySpytz
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls/ZackerySpytz
>
> He usually document properly his change and add new tests. He is not
> afraid of touching the C code base and working in the dark Python
> internals. He also likes to get reviews, and updates his change to
> take comments in account.
>
> Example of changes.
>
> bpo-37007: Implement socket.if_nametoindex(), if_indextoname() and
> if_nameindex() on Windows
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/13522
>
> bpo-26836: Add os.memfd_create()
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/13567
>
> bpo-33407: Implement Py_DEPRECATED() on MSVC
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/8980
>
> bpo-32941: Add madvise() for mmap objects
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/6172
>
> He also fixed numerous bugs all around the code base, making Python
> more stable and safer to use!
>
> I sent Zackery instructions how to triage bug and links into the devguide.
> I required him to ask me before closing a bug. I also offered to
> mentor him for 1 month, to help him to handle his new
> responsibilities.
>
> Congrats Zackery ;-) (I added him in copy of this email)
>
> Victor
> --
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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Re: [python-committers] Anthony Shaw has been given the bug triage permission

[Carol Willing]

Fantastic! Congrats Anthony :D

Steve Dower wrote on 5/6/19 1:49 PM:

On 06May2019 1333, Cheryl Sabella wrote:

Hello,

During the PyCon sprints, I mentored Anthony Shaw (from Real Python) 
on triaging bug issues and GitHub pull requests.  I will continue to 
mentor him, but to help him have the greatest impact, he has been 
given the triage bit.


Congratulations Anthony!


Congratulations! Great to have you on board!

Cheers,
Steve

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Re: [python-committers] Welcome Stefan Behnel to the team!

[Carol Willing]

Welcome Stefan :D

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 10:53 PM Stefan Behnel  wrote:

> Thanks, everyone, for bringing me in!
>
> I don't have much to add to what was written here about myself recently,
> except that I'm happy to join, and flattered by the result of the vote. I'm
> currently working on some XML issues for the stdlib, I'll see where that
> gets us.
>
> There were a couple of counter-votes in the poll, and that's perfectly ok,
> but if anyone wants to talk to me about them in private, here's my e-mail
> address.
>
> Hope to meet some of you at EuroPython this year!
>
> Best,
> Stefan
>
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Re: [python-committers] OpenMandriva and Fedora abandoned Discourse for development discussions

[Carol Willing]

One thing to keep in mind which is not a vote for/against mailing lists or 
Discourse is that older projects, like Linux, have historically communicated 
extensively with textual information. As JavaScript and other third party 
projects, which rely more heavily on visualizations and UI, have grown, there 
is a now a greater need to be able to communicate visual information.

While these Linux distros may have gone back to email, it would be interesting 
to dig deeper into why and whether visual communication is important in these 
projects.
My instinct is that Python will likely use more than one type of communication 
medium once the communication PEP(s) are written.
Please keep passing along the interesting data points too. Thanks.
On Feb 28 2019, at 7:29 am, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> Maybe we need a new #python-dev-notif (or even #python-dev-bots?)
> channel for automated notifications and bots, and keep #python-dev for
> humans?
>
> Victor
> Le mer. 27 févr. 2019 à 22:21, Matthias Klose  a écrit :
> >
> > On 27.02.19 22:11, Brett Cannon wrote:
> > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 3:40 PM Victor Stinner  
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Follow-up of the previous "Can we choose between mailing list and
> > > > discuss.python.org?" thread.
> > > >
> > > > Python isn't the first project who "experimented" Discourse to replace
> > > > mailing lists. It seems like Fedora and OpenMandriva are coming back
> > > > to mailing lists, at least for "development discussions":
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-disc...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/XQLY3MRJLC4CFMIRSYU5LRQSOPFF532X/
> > > It sounds like their overall team is much larger than ours based on the
> > > tone of that email (is that true?). We have also talked about having both
> > > Discourse and python-committers for announcements which would partially
> > > alleviate some of their concerns.
> > >
> > > I also think it's telling that their decision to do this was done on IRC
> > > which is not a primary communication platform for all of us and suggests
> > > that it's possible the desires/needs/expectations of those participating
> > > are different.
> >
> >
> > well, #python-dev is another topic. It now gets spammed by many bots, and 
> > human
> > chats are lost in the noise. That used to be better.
> >
> > Matthias
>
>
> --
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Re: [python-committers] Cheryl Sabella promoted as core dev

[Carol Willing]

Congrats, Cheryl :D

I'm so happy to have you as a Core Developer. Thank you for the many thoughtful 
messages while triaging and fixing issues.
Warmly,
Carol
P.S. Thanks again for Terry, Cheryl, and Victor for demonstrating the benefits 
of mentoring. Great job!
On Feb 19 2019, at 9:45 am, Mariatta Wijaya  wrote:
> Congrats, Cheryl.
>
> Thank you for all your contributions so far. Glad to have you on the team.
> ᐧ
>
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 9:19 AM Victor Stinner  (mailto:vstin...@redhat.com)> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I opened a vote during 1 week to promote Cheryl Sabella. She got the
> > excellent score of 21 “+1” vs 0 “-1” with very encouraging comments.
> > Moreover, the Steering Council accepted the vote.
> > https://discuss.python.org/t/vote-to-promote-cheryl-sabella-as-a-core-developer/862
> >
> > Welcome aboard Cheryl!
> > I offered to mentor her for one month to guide her in her new
> > responsibilities. For example, I asked her to ask me before merging a
> > pull request.
> >
> > Cheryl: Would you like to introduce yourself shortly?
> > --
> > I sent an email to GitHub admins to add her to the GitHub python-core
> > team and to subscribe her to the python-committers mailing list. In
> > the meanwhile, I added her in copy of this email.
> >
> > Ah, I already added her to
> > https://discuss.python.org/groups/committers and switcher the
> > "committer" bit in her https://bugs.python.org/user25861 account :-)
> >
> > Victor
> > --
> > Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?

[Carol Willing]

Hi folks, I had mentioned to Barry yesterday to author or co-author a PEP
re: communication channels. If anyone would like to co-author, please let
me know.

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 9:53 AM Victor Stinner  Le mar. 12 févr. 2019 à 15:07, Giampaolo Rodola'  a
> écrit :
> > IMO since the people who are gonna use these communication channels are
> mostly gonna be core developers (or is Users category also included in the
> migration plan?) I think the council should take into account how core-devs
> feel about this first. Opinions may have changed over the course of the
> last 3 months, but there was a poll back in November showing how many of us
> were not happy to abandon the mailing lists:
> > https://discuss.python.org/t/how-do-you-find-discourse-so-far/429
> > ...and that does not include the 24 core devs who never joined discuss.
> So at the very least I would appreciate having a new poll to understand
> whether/how things changed in the meantime. FWIW my main concern about
> discuss remains the long term archival topic described here:
> > https://discuss.python.org/t/discourse-archive-and-backup/637
>
> I like Barry's idea of a PEP since the points that you listed here
> have already been discussed multiple times. We need a document (a PEP)
> which summarize these discussions and maybe list things that you
> should fixed between we can abandon a mailing list for
> python-committers (for example).
>
> I'm not volunteer to write such PEP. Maybe early supporters of
> Discourse like Lukasz, Pablo and Yury are more interested to write
> such PEP? Anyone else?
>
> Note: I changed my mind on Discourse since discuss.python.org has been
> created :-) It took me time to be used to it. First, I was opposed
> since I'm always opposed to changes by default :-)
>
> Victor
> --
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Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?

[Carol Willing]

Yes. steering-coun...@python.org is the steering council members.

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019, 1:26 PM Victor Stinner  Le lun. 11 févr. 2019 à 18:58, Carol Willing  a écrit
> :
> > PS Copying the steering council in case someone has a different view.
>
> So you chose a mailing list and not Discourse? Interesting ;-)
>
> More seriously, what is steering-coun...@python.org? A mailing list
> with 5 subscribers: the members of the steering committee?
>
> Victor
> --
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>
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Re: [python-committers] Can we choose between mailing list and discuss.python.org?

[Carol Willing]

> On Feb 11, 2019, at 12:48 PM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> Should we ask the fresh Steering Committee
> to take a definitive decision?

I think that it makes sense for the Steering Committee to discuss and determine 
next step or resolution.

Thanks for raising the question Victor.

PS Copying the steering council in case someone has a different view.

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Re: [python-committers] Moderation of the Python community

[Carol Willing]

Brian, thanks for a very well written response, and Victor, thanks for asking 
for clarification.

I think Brian has covered my thoughts very thoroughly. As an FYI, Brett, Thomas 
Wouters, and I are on the Code of Conduct workgroup so the core devs are 
represented.


> On Oct 17, 2018, at 8:34 AM, Brian Curtin  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:04 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I see more and more discussions about the moderation of the Python community.
> 
> There is a PSF "conduct" Working Group:
> https://wiki.python.org/psf/ConductWG/Charter
> 
> I noticed the following questions:
> 
> * Lack of transparency on how moderation is decided
> * Lack of transparency on the number of received Code of Conduct
> incidents: maybe start to produce "Code of Conduct transparency
> report"? (If such reports already exist, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware
> :-))
> * Should the PSF conduct-WG handle conflicts between core developers?
> 
> Would it be possible to write down rules to formalize the moderation?
> 
> Yes. For any medium applying a code of conduct there should be some 
> guidelines applicable to said medium for how things are handled.
> 
> To get this out of the way early, as the author of the current CoC, it 
> intentionally doesn't prescribe any specific moderation because it depends on 
> how and where it's applied given the people and tools available. Moderating 
> Discourse might be different than moderating a mailing list which is 
> different than a bug tracker.
>  
> For example:
> 
> * First try to contact the author of an incident and warn them? Only
> take an action immediately for exceptional cases like obvious spam?
> * Maybe define numbers for ban: 1 week, then 3 months, then 6 months,
> then 1 year? I would prefer to never ban someone forever. People can
> change.
> * Scope: does the moderationg apply to *any* public space? Or only to
> a restricted list like: mailing lists and bug tracker? What about
> Twitter and conferences?
> 
> For conferences, there are specific codes of conduct and applicable event 
> handling guides that go with them, and I would just leave that area alone 
> from this angle. I don't know that we should start meddling with conferences; 
> leave that up to organizers who are dedicated to that and in several cases 
> have actual training on this topic.
> 
> Twitter can't even moderate itself, but I don't think that makes it anyone 
> here's job.
> 
> I would scope moderation to any spaces provided by or for this group, so 
> tracker, mailing lists, GitHub, Discourse, and I think that's it? I don't 
> really know if IRC and Zulip are still in play.
> 
> * Should the incidents which occur in the private space be handled as
> well? Bullying can occur in the private space.
> 
> We can't police everything, but I think handling private issues within the 
> space of PSF resources (or whatever the governing body of what we're talking 
> about is) is to be expected. For example, if I harass you via a private 
> message on Discourse, that is a situation to be handled here. It doesn't need 
> to go to everyone's inbox for it to be a problem we need to handle.
> 
> I don't know that you can moderate other private things—private in the 
> meaning of "PSF provided or not"—though. If I send you an inappropriate email 
> just between you and I, that's between us and our email providers. I think it 
> might be overstepping this group's bounds for you to say I can't use the bug 
> tracker for a month due to something I did entirely outside of the scope of 
> said group. It feels similar to some corporate policies, where if I'm 
> inappropriate to you when I see you at the grocery store, that's not really 
> the company's problem, but if I'm like that at our team dinner then it is a 
> problem.
> 
> There probably does exist some threshold where out-of-scope behavior crosses 
> to where someone isn't welcome, but I don't know that it's generally 
> quantifiable. That's probably something for a council or triad or working 
> group to discuss on a case-by-case basis as it's above and beyond a 
> reasonable range of behaviors that this group can have their eye on.
> 
> * How to handle conflict between core developers? Not directly related
> to the code of conduct.
> 
> If it's not CoC related conflict, do you mean conflict related to code, as in 
> technical conflict over implementation details? I think we naturally have a 
> few mediators in this case depending on the level of where it occurs. Release 
> managers, delegates for PEPs, code area experts, and then I think there are a 
> few who act in such a way due to longevity with the project.
> 
> If we're looking for people to be specifically identified as mediators, we 
> have a bunch of good ones around here.
> 
> I'm not interested for work on such rules. I'm not sure neither if
> it's the role of the Python core developers to propose something.
> Maybe the PSF conduct WG should propose something, or even decide
> directly?
> 
> 

Re: [python-committers] 1 week to Oct 1

[Carol Willing]

I'm still optimistic that the October 1 deadline is achievable. It's important 
for the larger Python community to have confidence that we enter 2019 with a 
governance plan.

> On Sep 25, 2018, at 2:58 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 24/09/2018 à 20:32, Mariatta Wijaya a écrit :
>> It is now 7 days until October 1, the deadline for coming up with Python
>> Governance PEPs.
>> 
>> Some still relevant links:
>> 
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8000/ Python Language Governance
>> Proposal Overview
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8001 Python Governance Voting Process
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8002 Open source governance survey
>> 
>> These are current ideas and proposals, some are placeholders still.
>> 
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8010 The BDFL Governance Model
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8011 The Council Governance Model
>> (I'm claiming this PEP)
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8012 The Community Governance Model
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8013/ The External Council
>> Governance Model
>> - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-8014/ The Commons Governance Model
>> 
>> I have some questions:
>> 
>> 1. Is everyone still ok with the Oct 1 as deadline for coming up with
>> governance PEPs?
> 
> As I predicted, Oct 1 seems to be coming up too early.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] bpo triage privileges for Karthikeyan Singaravelan

[Carol Willing]

Congratulations Karthikeyan. Thanks for the good work.

Carol

> On Sep 23, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Zachary Ware  
> wrote:
> 
> On the recommendation of Ammar Askar and with Serhiy's endorsement on
> Zulip [0], I've given Karthikeyan Singaravelan (CC'd) triage
> privileges on bugs.python.org.
> 
> Karthikeyan, please use your new-found powers for good, and don't
> hesitate to ask for guidance if you need it.  Keep up the good work,
> and thank you!
> 
> [0] 
> https://python.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/116501-workflow/subject/bug.20tracker.20triage.20permissions
> -- 
> Zach
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Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)

[Carol Willing]

> On Sep 21, 2018, at 10:51 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 21/09/2018 à 14:45, Paul Moore a écrit :
>> 
>> It's not likely to be a practical option on a mailing list, but in
>> primary school (which the whole conversation felt like) a likely
>> response would have been to put *everyone* involved in a time-out for
>> a period of cooling off, to think about how their behaviour was
>> unacceptable. Think for example of a group of kids taunting each other
>> until one of them snaps and hits someone.
> 
> With a forum system, the thread would just have been locked.
> 
> However, you may not physically lock a mailing-list thread, but you can
> post a moderator's announcement asking everyone to stop posting to that
> thread, and warning that failing to comply would get the offender e.g. a
> 7-day ban (regardless of the contents of their post).
> 

This seems like a very reasonable stop gap until we have better moderation 
tools. 

> Regards
> 
> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)

[Carol Willing]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Fear of speaking or fear of reading - both are not ideal. The balance of
respectful discourse likely falls somewhere between the two.

Context is important. I wonder though if the author's intent was
constructive comment...

On Fri, Sep 21, 2018, 8:01 AM Paul Moore  wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 at 12:38, Carol Willing  wrote:
>
> > Much of the discussion here has focused on the use of a few words.
> >
> > IMHO, discussing violence, assault, and implying that its okay to accept
> and trivialize this violence do not belong in posts about the Python
> language.
> >
> > From the original post:
> >
> > Being triggered by a word this simple is not exactly a
> > sign of mental stability. I know a girl who's been raped more than she
> can
> > count - but the word doesn't trigger her like this(only makes her want to
> > beat up rapists). If people can do that, then surely a playground insult
> > wont reduce you to tears, right ?
>
> I agree - *but* there's a whole lot more I wish I could say, about
> context, and looking at how the conversation reached that point.
>
> But I won't, because frankly I'm scared to do so. I don't trust myself
> to explain my feelings without doing so in a way that people find
> offensive, and suffering a backlash that I didn't intend to trigger,
> and which won't help the discussion.
>
> I'm not sure that "I'm too scared to participate in this discussion"
> is where we want to be, though...
> Paul
>
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Re: [python-committers] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)

[Carol Willing]

> On Sep 21, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 21/09/2018 à 12:55, Christian Heimes a écrit :
>> On 21/09/2018 12.46, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>>> 
>>> Le 21/09/2018 à 02:06, Nathaniel Smith a écrit :
 Now sure, that taboo is an American thing, and I wouldn't support
 automatically banning someone who used it in genuine ignorance, was
 repentant when they realized what they'd done, etc.
>>> 
>>> So why are American taboos specifically forbidden, and not other taboos?
>>> Is there anything special about Americans that deserves this?  Does it
>>> mean that Python is a community for Americans foremost, and others are
>>> just second-class participants?  The more this is going on, the more it
>>> is the impression I get, and things have become distinctly *worse* recently.
>> 
>> I don't understand why you are drawing the reverse conclusion here. Can
>> you give me one concrete example, in which a French, German, or any
>> other non-US American taboo was violated and not counteracted with swift
>> reaction?
> 
> I don't know of specifically French linguistic taboos, so I'm unable to
> answer this.  French culture generally doesn't ban words wholesale, even
> when used in quotes.  The very idea that you can't *quote* something
> despicable is foreign here.
> 
> But, were it to exist, I have a hard time imagining it would face
> immediate permanent banning on python-XXX.  And I would be against such
> immediate permanent banning, because that's inappropriately strong and
> definitive.
> 

Much of the discussion here has focused on the use of a few words.

IMHO, discussing violence, assault, and implying that its okay to accept and 
trivialize this violence do not belong in posts about the Python language.

From the original post:

Being triggered by a word this simple is not exactly a
sign of mental stability. I know a girl who's been raped more than she can
count - but the word doesn't trigger her like this(only makes her want to
beat up rapists). If people can do that, then surely a playground insult
wont reduce you to tears, right ?






> Regards
> 
> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Proposal: an explicit, time-limited moratorium on finalizing any governance decisions

[Carol Willing]

Thanks all. I am glad that Victor likes October 1. :-)

So can we formalize the timeline proposed by Mariatta?

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 5:58 PM Mariatta Wijaya 
wrote:

> As quick refresher, my proposed timeline is:
>
> Oct 1: Deadline for people to come up with proposals of governance model,
> candidates, and how to vote
> Dec 1: Deadline to choose a governance model, (and if possible, we choose
> the new leader(s) too)
> Jan 1: Deadline to choose the new leader(s), if not already chosen by Dec
> 1.
>
> Mariatta
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Re: [python-committers] Proposal: an explicit, time-limited moratorium on finalizing any governance decisions

[Carol Willing]

> On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Doug Hellmann  wrote:
> 
> Excerpts from Antoine Pitrou's message of 2018-07-19 20:07:41 +0200:
>> 
>> Le 19/07/2018 à 20:00, Carol Willing a écrit :
>>> I appreciate and respect the importance of these decisions. The dates
>>> that I suggested, and I am not anchored to any of them, were not
>>> selected to rush or be hasty. Instead, it was respect for our time
>>> together (at least some of us) at the September sprint and to have all
>>> proposals on the table by that time.
>> 
>> I hadn't thought about the September sprint.  I'd say it's up to people
>> to discuss those things there if they want or not (I would prefer if we
>> could avoid discussions in select groups like that, but I don't think
>> there's any reasonable way to prevent it).
> 
> The best way to mitigate it is to agree that select groups who happen to
> be able to meet in person won't make any final decisions, and that any
> discussions they have that start to trend toward agreement will be
> summarized to the mailing list so that the folks not able to be present
> can benefit from and participate in the discussion.

Excellent suggestion. Reporting to the mailing list, python-committers and 
python-dev, would be the courteous and productive thing to do.


> 
>>> My biggest concern is that dragging this on into the new year will
>>> result in more bikeshedding, more uncertainty, and less confidence in
>>> the developer community decision making ability.
>> 
>> That's a fair point.  But there's also an opposite concern that
>> discussions may be deterred or cut short by a too tight deadline.  Even
>> simple and uncontentious PEPs take time to write, discuss and finalize.
> 
> Maybe it would be better to focus on a first date for submitting
> proposals and then wait to set the rest of the deadlines until after
> we have a bit more of the discussion behind us. That will give us
> a sense for how much consensus there is and how much more discussion
> might be needed.

This suggestion seems to balance well the different perspectives.

Proposals due by Sept 9, 2018 AOE.

No formal decisions prior to October 1, 2018.


> 
> Doug
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Re: [python-committers] Proposal: an explicit, time-limited moratorium on finalizing any governance decisions

[Carol Willing]

I appreciate and respect the importance of these decisions. The dates that
I suggested, and I am not anchored to any of them, were not selected to
rush or be hasty. Instead, it was respect for our time together (at least
some of us) at the September sprint and to have all proposals on the table
by that time.

You make a good point about European holidays. I am not opposed to delaying
a couple of weeks (due date for proposals by the September sprint start).

My biggest concern is that dragging this on into the new year will result
in more bikeshedding, more uncertainty, and less confidence in the
developer community decision making ability.

Hoping we can compromise on a happy medium on a timeline.




On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 10:36 AM Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

>
> Le 19/07/2018 à 19:26, Carol Willing a écrit :
> > Would it be possible to have all proposals:
> >
> > - How to determine the governance structure (PEP 10 or other approval
> > process)
> > - The suggested governance structure
> >
> > submitted by AOE August 31, 2018?
> >
> > That would give everyone 40ish days to get their proposals in for either
> > topic.
>
> Much too short IMHO.  We are all volunteers, plus July-August is often
> an extended leave (holiday) period in European countries (not for me,
> but I imagine for other people perhaps).
>
> This is a serious decision to take, I don't think we gain anything in
> hasting things.  Plus we are talking about a situation that seems to
> have taken everyone by surprise, given what I can read of the various
> e-mails.
>
> Let's let people think and elaborate at a calm pace.
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Proposal: an explicit, time-limited moratorium on finalizing any governance decisions

[Carol Willing]

Thanks Ethan for clarifying. Totally cool if that is the case.

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 10:19 PM Ethan Furman  wrote:

> On 07/18/2018 09:40 PM, Carol Willing wrote:
> > I am in favor of a time limit. Yet, October 1 seems a bit too long for
> the initial governance decision (i.e. how to
> > decide how to decide). My perspective, based on transitions in
> non-profits and the corporate world, is that the longer
> > an organization let's it draw out then fear, uncertainty, and doubt
> creep in.
> >
> > We have PEP 10 in place for a strawperson vote. It seems as good as
> anything to use to determine how to make a decision.
> > Perhaps set a 30 day deadline to submit decision process
> recommendations. Then take a strawperson poll on each and at
> > the core sprint create a time window for specific proposals on structure
> be submitted before October 1.
> >
> > My concern if we leave how to decide until at least Oct 1 that the
> likelihood of completing this year is fairly low.
>
> My understanding is that, between now and Oct 1, we'll all get our
> proposals together for both how to decide, and what
> to decide.  Then we have the first vote to decide how to decide, then
> maybe a week or two later we use that mechanism to
> decide on a governance model.
>
> --
> ~Ethan~
>
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Re: [python-committers] Proposal: an explicit, time-limited moratorium on finalizing any governance decisions

[Carol Willing]

I am in favor of a time limit. Yet, October 1 seems a bit too long for the
initial governance decision (i.e. how to decide how to decide). My
perspective, based on transitions in non-profits and the corporate world,
is that the longer an organization let's it draw out then fear,
uncertainty, and doubt creep in.

We have PEP 10 in place for a strawperson vote. It seems as good as
anything to use to determine how to make a decision. Perhaps set a 30 day
deadline to submit decision process recommendations. Then take a
strawperson poll on each and at the core sprint create a time window for
specific proposals on structure be submitted before October 1.

My concern if we leave how to decide until at least Oct 1 that the
likelihood of completing this year is fairly low.

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 9:15 PM Mariatta Wijaya 
wrote:

> +1
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 8:54 PM Ethan Furman  wrote:
>
>> On 07/18/2018 08:45 PM, Łukasz Langa wrote:>
>>  >> On Jul 18, 2018, at 9:36 PM, Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >> I propose: no governance decisions finalized before October
>>  >> 1, 2018.
>>  >
>>  > +1 but it's okay and expected that discussions here will continue in
>> the interim.
>>
>> Absolutely!  Without continuing discussion we'll have nothing to vote on
>> come October!  ;-)
>>
>> --
>> ~Ethan~
>>
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Re: [python-committers] An alternative governance model

[Carol Willing]

I wholeheartedly agree with Barry's suggestion.

It offers a single person who can communicate the design vision. While the
support of a council will help spread out the work and provides a great way
to grow future leaders and a smooth transition if for any reason (family,
work, health, etc.) the new BDFL has to take a break.

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018, 7:38 PM Ned Deily  wrote:

> On Jul 17, 2018, at 22:15, Eric V. Smith  wrote:
> > On 7/17/2018 10:02 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> >> I’d like to propose an alternative model, and with it a succession
> plan, that IMHO hasn’t gotten enough discussion.  It’s fairly radical in
> that it proposes to not actually change that much!
> >> TL;DR: I propose keeping a singular BDFL and adding a Council of
> Advisors that helps the BDFL in various capacities, with additional
> responsibilities.  I also have someone specific in mind for the NBDFL, but
> you’ll have to read on for the big reveal.
> > I've come to this same conclusion. I think Brett would be a good choice,
> and I'd support him, but I think the more important part is that it be a
> single person.
>
> +100.  I think Python owes much of its success to both Guido's ongoing
> vision *and* his clear role as leader.  Up to now, we have not had much
> experience governing by committee or council and I think it may be a
> mistake to try to implement that now (although we *do* have some successful
> experience with informal council of advisors models, for instance, in the
> release management area).  While it wouldn't necessarily be a good choice
> for many (most?) open-source projects, I think the NBDFL-plus-advisors
> model would work well in the relatively congenial and respectful
> environment of the current Python committers community.  That's not to say
> that we won't collectively decide down the road that we want to try
> something different but trying to keep this really important transition
> (i.e. from Guido) as simple as possible initially would be a really smart
> thing to do.
>
> > And I think the succession plan is important, too. I think Łukasz was
> alluding to this earlier (or maybe I'm projecting): who's to say that the
> next BDFL is legitimate? If we put together a plan, and Guido blesses it,
> that makes the plan legitimate, and then the plan gets executed and makes
> NBDFL legitimate.
>
> That, too.
>
> --
>   Ned Deily
>   n...@python.org -- []
>
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[python-committers] Summarizing our discussion about Governance

[Carol Willing]

Hi folks,

There have been lots of good comments the past few days. 

For those who are interested, I've compiled a Markdown document that pulls out 
and summarizes many comments. The  document builds around the questions/issues 
that Guido posed in his message.

We've been using Hackmd for collaborative writing for Project Jupyter for a 
while. It's similar to etherpad but with some additional versioning - if you 
have a GitHub account you can authenticate to make edits. 

This is a working document so please feel free to make edits. If you are adding 
content, please keep it brief and try to avoid personal names or attributions 
to yourself or others. As this is a gathering of information, the source of the 
information is less important than the information itself.

https://hackmd.io/s/BJPaxUFX7 

To view: https://hackmd.io/wbBNRoOkS8ahyWA7ZwlZbg?view 


To edit: https://hackmd.io/wbBNRoOkS8ahyWA7ZwlZbg?edit 


Note: I got about 80% through the messages on python-committers, but need to 
travel now. Will add the rest tomorrow or others please feel free to do so (I 
left off with Barry's July 12 14:53:18 message.

Carol

‌Carol Willing‌

Research Software Engineer
Project Jupyter at Cal Poly State University, San Luis Obispo
@willingc on GitHub and @willingcarol on Twitter

Signature Strengths
Empathy - Relator - Ideation - Strategic - Learner

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Re: [python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

[Carol Willing]

> 
> On Jul 13, 2018, at 5:25 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> 
> On Jul 13, 2018, at 17:11, Carol Willing  wrote:
> 
>> If I look at the many important roles that Guido has played, I personally 
>> believe that he has been someone who encouraged many women (and I'm sure 
>> others as well) and most importantly provided a safe place to share ideas. 
>> If we reflect on Mariatta's PyCon talk and Summit talk, it's clear that we 
>> should not overlook this role as growth and improvements still need to 
>> happen here.
> 
> Maybe we refactor this particular role of the BDFL?  It may be that given 
> Guido’s passion for this topic, he would still want to be active.  If so, he 
> would certainly still have the stature, respect, and voice to continue to 
> promote this within the community.  Of course, we don’t know whether that’ll 
> be the case or not.

Make sense, and I have no object to refactoring. I sincerely hope that is the 
case, but mostly I want Guido to do whatever rocks his world.

> It’s a good question though: should the Council primarily concern itself with 
> technical details of language evolution, or take on more of the other roles 
> that Guido traditional performed?  Or do you see more of an overlap there 
> (other than through the person embodying that role)?

Our messages crossed from a different post so I'm going to repost it here:

> [Barry] Procedurally, I think an informational PEP numbered in sequence is a 
> good place for the “design” of our governance.

[Carol] I've been debating all day how to respond to this informational PEP re: 
governance. While I think it's great to cull good practices from other 
communities, I'm not sure that Python really fits into any existing governance 
that other projects use. IMHO Python is one of the healthiest 
language/community in the open source world. There's a reason that the saying 
"I came for the language and stayed for the community" exists.

There's also a reason the Zen of Python has been so popular for so long. It 
works.

While this may be an unconventional idea, I would love to look at governance 
through the lens of these 2 universally held beliefs as we begin to "design" 
our goverance (Thank you Barry for phrasing so well).

---

tldr; If what evolves embraces the Zen of Python and "I came for the language 
and stayed for the community", I am confident that the language will benefit 
technically. Encouraging people to work together even through disagreement and 
to respect that more than one solution is possible (it doesn't have to be one 
is great and the other stinks).


> 
> -Barry
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Re: [python-committers] Identify roles of the BDFL

[Carol Willing]

> On Jul 13, 2018, at 11:39 AM, Brett Cannon  > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 at 03:44 Victor Stinner  > wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 2018-07-12 19:12 GMT+02:00 Mariatta Wijaya  >:
> 
> 
> * Diversity. Last years, the BDFL was a strong player to enhance the
> diversity of core developers and contributors by mentoring directly
> Mariatta Wijaya, and suggesting regularly to mentor more people from
> minorities whenever possible. He also likes to wear PyLadies t-shirt
> and support DjangoGirls ;-)
> 
> I lump this into the community and PR bucket as I don't know if we need to be 
> worrying about appointing a head of diversity right now as that doesn't tie 
> into governance. If, once this is all over, we want to take our diversity 
> efforts to another level then a diversity SIG could be formed, but I don't 
> see this as a BDFL thing and more of a team thing that someone choose to 
> spearhead.
> 

Brett, 

I'm wondering if prematurely placing this in the community and PR bucket gives 
mentoring and inclusion among the core developer enviroment enough strategic 
importance. Knowing how gracious you are, I suspect that you personally are 
viewing it as such. Yet, I'm not sure that by removing this as a role that 
Guido has played is best for the language or the developer community.

If I look at the many important roles that Guido has played, I personally 
believe that he has been someone who encouraged many women (and I'm sure others 
as well) and most importantly provided a safe place to share ideas. If we 
reflect on Mariatta's PyCon talk and Summit talk, it's clear that we should not 
overlook this role as growth and improvements still need to happen here.

I believe that improving the overall communication and professionalism on 
mailing lists and PEPs is important to continuously improve the culture and 
discourse. While this may help improve inclusion (and is a step in the right 
direction), I would encourage everyone to reflect on Mariatta's talks and 
consider whether improvement will happen if members of 
GUIDO/elders/triumvirate/kittens of entropy and anarchy/pick your 
governance/etc. don't believe, embrace, and make this a priority  in stewarding 
the future of the Python language.

tldr; We don't need a head of diversity. What we need is leadership that 
embraces inclusion and will steward the vision for improvements.

Thanks,
Carol

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Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

[Carol Willing]

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:53 AM, Barry Warsaw  > wrote:
> 
> On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
>> 
>> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still 
>> be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to 
>> mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a 
>> permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all will be on your own.
> 
> Leaving my emotions out of it for now, and with my heartfelt gratitude for 
> everything you’ve done, I am absolutely certain that the community you’ve 
> built is strong enough to carry on.
> 

Well said, Barry. 

> 
> That said, I think a triumvirate would work (Guido’s Unworthy Inherited 
> Delegation Organization).  
> 

We'll likely all be asking ourselves often "What would Guido think/do in 
situation x, y, or z?"

> 
> There’s no rush to decide, and this would make for a fine discussion at the 
> core sprint in September.
> 

Tim's reference to Stroustrup's article and the article's cautions are spot on.

I agree with Barry there's no rush to decide. Taking our time to absorb the 
news and giving Guido the space to recharge and pursue things that rock his 
world (Python and beyond) would be two actions that we can take right now.

Thank you Guido for everything. Wishing you all that you wish for us: 
https://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2016/04/kings-day-speech.html 


Warmly,

Carol




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Re: [python-committers] Vote to promote Pablo Salingo Salgado as core developer

[Carol Willing]

> On Jun 13, 2018, at 7:30 PM, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> 
> On 6/13/2018 7:03 PM, Carol Willing wrote:
>> +1 With Victor's mentoring (1 or 2 months), I believe that it is reasonable 
>> to promote Pablo to a core developer either now or after 3 months of 
>> coaching.
>> I would also like to see Cheryl Sabella who has been very active on the bug 
>> tracker to also be promoted to a core developer.
> 
> A bit off topic, but I would too, as she has been extremely helpful with 
> IDLE.  We have discussed it privately and I offered to sponsor her here 
> whenever she wants me to.  At the moment, she is happy doing what she does 
> with the time she has.
> 
> Terry Jan Reedy
> 

Thanks Terry for discussing with her and mentoring her on IDLE :-)


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Re: [python-committers] Vote to promote Pablo Salingo Salgado as core developer

[Carol Willing]

+1 With Victor's mentoring (1 or 2 months), I believe that it is reasonable to 
promote Pablo to a core developer either now or after 3 months of coaching.

I would also like to see Cheryl Sabella who has been very active on the bug 
tracker to also be promoted to a core developer as well as Emily Morehouse who 
has been at the Language Summit for several years.

I'm happy to trust Victor's perspective as well as Pablo being respectful of 
the merge process.

FWIW, I also believe that triaging issues, writing documentation, and 
contributing code are all valuable to the success of CPython. Without issue 
triage and quality documentation being valued, the users and contributors 
suffer a lack of information and efficiency as well as demotivating potential 
developers.


> On Jun 13, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Victor Stinner  > wrote:
> 
> Pablo proved its steady involvment in Python for almost one year with
> multiple significant contributions (new os functions). IMHO you are
> pushing the bar too high.

> I think Pablo will be good core developer and agree with the description 
> given by Victor.But it seems that he still needs to learn something about 
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Re: [python-committers] A different way to focus discussions

[Carol Willing]

> On May 22, 2018, at 5:21 PM, Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
> 
> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Victor Stinner  > wrote:
> 2018-05-19 0:25 GMT+02:00 Guido van Rossum  >:
> > Discussing PEPs on python-dev and python-ideas is clearly not scalable any
> > more. (Even python-committers probably doesn't scale too well. :-)
> >
> > I wonder if it would make sense to require that for each PEP a new GitHub
> > *repo* be created whose contents would just be a draft PEP and whose issue
> > tracker and PR manager would be used to debate the PEP and propose specific
> > changes.
> 
> Which problem do you want to solve? Reduce the number of emails per
> month on python-ideas and python-dev? Reduce the number of messages
> per PEP?
> 
> Both. The lists have gotten out of hand, and it's clear that many people 
> don't bother to read much of the discussion before posting an outraged 
> response to something they disagree with.
>  
> If the number of messages per PEP is the problem, I don't see how
> replacing emails with GitHub would help. GitHub allows to add comments
> on:
> 
> * commits
> * issues
> * pull requests
> 
> Anyone can open new issues and new pull requests. It might be harder
> to follow discussions if they are occur at different parts of a single
> repository.
> 
> That's why I propose one repo per new PEP (or small cluster of related PEPs). 
> I agree that just having one PR per PEP in the peps repo would not be an 
> improvement.
> 
> The single repo puts all related discussion together (all issues in that repo 
> are about the same topic). This makes it easier for the PEP author to read 
> all traffic related to their PEP without forcing them to read all of 
> python-{ideas,dev}, while making it easier for others to create new threads 
> (no worries that the PEP author won't see your comment). It also lets the PEP 
> author effectively moderate the discussion (they can close issues and even 
> delete off-topic messages). It also makes it possible for interested 3rd 
> parties to read all traffic related to a repo (just subscribe to the repo).
>  
> I guess that your motivation is to prevent another PEP 572 mess.
> 
> IMHO the discussions on the PEP 572 became a mess because nobody
> wanted to moderate the discussion. I asked on python-committers how to
> calm down the discussion, but no action has been taken and the flow of
> emails didn't stop.
> 
> What action *can* you take on mailing lists like python-{ideas,dev}?
>  
> A moderator can try to summarize the discussion or can ask to stop
> discussing the PEP until the PEP is updated. For the PEP 572, it seems
> like a few issues have been spotted in the PEP, but I don't recall an
> email saying "these points must be fixed in the PEP, please wait until
> the PEP is updated".
> 
> Will it be simpler to moderate discussions on GitHub? Or do you expect
> that less people will go to GitHub, than on python-dev/python-ideas,
> to discuss?
> 
> GitHub has superior moderation abilities over our mailing lists, plus the 
> volume per topic (PEP or cluster of PEPs) is lower than the entire volume of 
> python-{ideas,dev}.
> 
> If it discourages drive-by comments by people not really invested in the 
> discussion but eager to show off their opinions, well, that's just an added 
> benefit.
>  
> I like emails because it's plain text, it's easily readable on all
> devices, there are archives (controlled by Python) which are readable
> online, etc. I also like threads in emails. It's easy to see if I
> missed messages. On GitHub, there is no markers of unread messages,
> only notifications (well, there are also notifications with messages
> ;-)).
> 
> Maybe you should learn more about how to use GitHub? I find the experience 
> superior, and I routinely keep up with it on my phone.
>  
> IMHO a PEP should summarize the most important discussed points.
> Otherwise, each time that someone who don't know the PEP will read it,
> the same discussion will restart from scratch. And I don't think that
> PEP 572 made that.
> 
> That's an unreasonable requirement when the discussion gets out of hand like 
> it got in that case. I hope to make it easier for the PEP author(s) to keep 
> up in part so they will have an easier time summarizing (and won't be drawn 
> into fruitless arguments as much by semi-troll comments).
>  
> > Thoughts? (We can dogfood this proposal too, if there's interest. :-)
> 
> Apart the PEP 572, I recalled that I have been annoyed by the fspath
> protocol before a PEP has been written. I also recall that the
> discussions stopped when I asked to wait until Brett (and someone
> else, sorry I forgot) writes a PEP. For other PEPs, I think that the
> volume of emails is acceptable.
> 
> That was a long time ago. Note that the cluster around PEP 550 was #2 on your 
> list, this was also fairly recent. I feel that 

Re: [python-committers] A different way to focus discussions

[Carol Willing]

> On May 18, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
> 
> Discussing PEPs on python-dev and python-ideas is clearly not scalable any 
> more. (Even python-committers probably doesn't scale too well. :-)
> 
> I wonder if it would make sense to require that for each PEP a new GitHub 
> *repo* be created whose contents would just be a draft PEP and whose issue 
> tracker and PR manager would be used to debate the PEP and propose specific 
> changes.
> 

We have something similar for Project Jupyter. We have a jupyter-incubator org 
for third party projects that may someday be accepted into the Jupyter core. 
One repo in particular, https://github.com/jupyter-incubator/proposals 
, keeps track of all the 
currently active proposals with links out to their repos, if not hosted within 
the incubator org.

> This way the discussion is still public: when the PEP-specific repo is 
> created the author(s) can notify python-ideas, and when they are closer to 
> submitting they can notify python-dev, but the discussion doesn't attract 
> uninformed outsiders as much as python-{dev,ideas} discussions do, and it's 
> much easier for outsiders who want to learn more about the proposal to find 
> all relevant discussion.
> 
> PEP authors may also choose to use a different repo hosting site, e.g. 
> Bitbucket or GitLab. We can provide a script that allows checking the 
> formatting of the PEP easily (basically pep2html.py from the peps repo).
> 
> Using a separate repo per PEP has the advantage that people interested in a 
> topic can subscribe to all traffic in that repo -- if we were to use the 
> tracker of the peps repo you would have to subscribe to all peps traffic.

This makes sense - one repo per proposed PEP as PRs can be used to help iterate 
the wording and issues can focus on specific subtopics. Having one repo that 
acts as a landing page for all of the in-progress PEPs would help folks keep 
track of where an in-progress PEP is located.

> 
> Thoughts? (We can dogfood this proposal too, if there's interest. :-)
> 
> -- 
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido )
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Re: [python-committers] Proposing Mark Shannon to be a core developer

[Carol Willing]

+1

On Mon, May 14, 2018, 6:47 PM INADA Naoki  wrote:

> +1
>
> 2018年5月15日(火) 6:55 Ivan Levkivskyi :
>
>> +1
>>
>> Yes, I actually thought he is a core dev for ages :-)
>>
>
> Me too.
>
>
>> --
>> Ivan
>>
>>
>>
>> On 14 May 2018 at 17:42, Eric Snow  wrote:
>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> -eric
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:41 PM, Larry Hastings 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Dr. Mark Shannon contributed the "key sharing dictionary" to Python,
>>> writing
>>> > both the PEP and the implementation.  This shipped in Python 3.3 and
>>> was
>>> > listed as one of the top features of that release as according to the
>>> > "What's New?" document.
>>> >
>>> > We've asked Mark in the past if he'd be interested in becoming a core
>>> > developer--and he actually said no.  At the time he said he didn't
>>> like our
>>> > antiquated workflow.  Now that we've switched to the git-based core dev
>>> > workflow, this objection is gone, and he's now interested in accepting
>>> the
>>> > commit bit and the responsibilities that it entails.
>>> >
>>> > I suspect you, my colleagues in CPython core development, will be
>>> surprised
>>> > at the current state of affairs.  I'm expecting a load of "you mean
>>> Mark
>>> > *isn't* a core developer yet?" replies.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Submitted for your consideration,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > /arry
>>> >
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Re: [python-committers] Poll: Do you like the PEP 572 Assignment Expressions?

[Carol Willing]

-1 as currently proposed, +0 on Tim’s more bounded approach from the
mailing list

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 4:38 AM Nathaniel Smith <n...@pobox.com> wrote:

> -1, I think, though I'm frustrated that in the parts of the list
> discussion I had energy to read, its proponents seemed to be saying
> that the most compelling examples aren't actually in the PEP (and I
> don't know what they are).
>
> On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:49 AM, Victor Stinner <vstin...@redhat.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would like to start a poll on Chris Angelico's PEP 572 "Assignment
> > Expressions", restricted to Python core developers, to prepare the
> > talk at the Language Summit:
> >
> >https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/
> >
> > The poll is on the *current* PEP. I propose 4 choices:
> >
> > * +1: you like the PEP
> > * -1: you dislike the PEP
> > * 0: you are not sure if you like it or not, or you have no opinon
> > * don't reply to this poll :-)
> >
> > Just reply to this email with "+1", "0", "-1". Please don't elaborate
> > here, it's just a quick poll, use python-dev if you want to talk :-)
> >
> > The poll will end next Tuesday, May 8, the day before the Language
> Summit.
> >
> > I propose a poll because I'm unable to track the opinion of each core
> > dev, too many emails have been sent to python-dev, and maybe some
> > people changed their mind during the long discussion (which started in
> > February) :-)
> >
> > Note: Obviously, it's just a poll, not a vote. Guido van Rossum is the
> > one who will pronounce himself on the PEP, to accept to reject it, so
> > the only one allowed to vote ;-)
> >
> > Victor
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>
>
> --
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Re: [python-committers] How to calm down the discussion on the PEP 572?

[Carol Willing]

> On Apr 26, 2018, at 8:03 AM, Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
> 
> The way to calm discussions is to stop responding.

Hi Victor,

In the gentlest way that I know how, I commend you for considering the impact 
that emails have on PEP writers especially when "dogpiling" (i.e. folks jumping 
in without anything new to add to the discussion on a controversial issue). 
People are hard :( and wonderful :)

In my experience, people's actions (as Guido mentions) do more to calm things 
than technology. One slippery slope with a technical solution is that people 
then begin to game the technical system. Responding calmly, staying on topic by 
addressing the approach not the PEP writer, seeking to work toward a better 
solution than shooting down an idea, and slowing your response time are ways to 
calm things down and improve productivity. These concepts are well proven by 
the Harvard Negotiation project.

One constructive thing that we can do is to put yourself in the shoes of the 
PEP writer before pressing "send" and consider how you might "feel" if you 
received the message that you are about to send.

Warmly,

Carol


> 
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 4:02 AM, Victor Stinner  > wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Since 2 or 3 years, I saw that that discussions on some PEPs get more
> and more emails every year. Maybe because Python became more popular?
> Openness is a Python quality, but shortly, the amount of emails
> becomes an issue, at least for the author of the PEP.
> 
> I counted the number of emails per day of the python-dev mailing list,
> using mbox archives available at:
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/ 
> 
> 
> My script:
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/python/parse_mailman_mbox.py 
> 
> 
> In March, python-dev got 246 emails with a maximum of 31 the 2018-03-21.
> 
> In April, the traffic was between 3 and 27 emails per day until the
> start of the chaos:
> 
> ...
> 2018-04-17: 27
> 2018-04-18: 20
> 2018-04-19: 11
> 2018-04-20: 36
> 2018-04-21: 36
> 2018-04-22: 31
> 2018-04-23: 32
> 2018-04-24: 72
> 2018-04-25: 76
> 2018-04-26: 23
> 2018-04-27: 10
> 
> Current maximum: 76 emails received at 2018-04-25!?
> 
> I'm not sure that it's still possible to read carefully all emails to
> python-dev and write constructive replies. It seems like people are
> answering immediately, without reading past emails nor reading other
> emails sent the same day.
> 
> I'm also concerned by the general mood of the discussion. Are we still
> discussing arguments in polite way?
> 
> How can we calm down the discussion, and ask people to don't reply
> immediately but instead try to listen to the other people?
> 
> IHMO everybody had enough time to give their very important opinion (I
> wrote my own very important opinion, don't worry!) on python-ideas and
> then on python-dev. We are now turning around.
> 
> Can we give Chris more time to update his PEP? In my experience, the
> PEP is the most constructive tool to drive a discussion.
> 
> I chose to write to python-committers because I now fear that I would
> get too many replies on python-dev ...
> 
> Victor
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> 
> 
> 
> --
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Re: [python-committers] Welcoming Petr Viktorin as our newest core developer :)

[Carol Willing]

Welcome Petr :D We're glad to have you on board.

Warmly,

Carol

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Antoine Pitrou <anto...@python.org> wrote:

>
> Le 23/04/2018 à 16:39, Nick Coghlan a écrit :
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > With my recent proposal to accept Petr Viktorin as a specialist core
> > developer focusing on extension module imports receiving several +1's
> > and no concerns being raised, I'm happy to report that Brett has now
> > granted Petr his additional access on GitHub, the issue tracker, and
> > this mailing list.
>
> Welcome Petr!  You have a lot of gruesome work ahead ;-)
> (just kidding: I'm sure you'll have fun on the way)
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
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cawil...@calpoly.edu

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Re: [python-committers] Proposing Petr Viktorin as a specialist core developer

[Carol Willing]

> On Apr 13, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> 
> On Apr 13, 2018, at 05:13, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>> 
>> I'd like to propose Petr Viktorin as a specialist core developer,
>> focusing on extension module imports.
> 
> +1
> 
> -Barry
> 

+1

Carol

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Re: [python-committers] Save the date: Core developer sprints

[Carol Willing]

Thanks Steve. Happy to pitch in with organizing if it would be helpful (and it 
can be done remotely).

Carol

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 2:21 PM, Mariatta Wijaya  > wrote:
> 
> Thanks for organizing!
> 
> I should be able to attend for the whole week this time :) Looking forward to 
> it.
> 
> Mariatta Wijaya
> 
> ᐧ
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Re: [python-committers] Let's give commit privileges to Nathaniel J. Smith

[Carol Willing]

+1, Nathaniel would be a nice addition.

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 3:32 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> +1 from me as well.
> 
> 
> Le 25/01/2018 à 00:23, Yury Selivanov a écrit :
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I want to propose granting commit privileges to Nathaniel J. Smith.
>> He's interested in the idea of becoming a core developer, and given
>> the quality of his contributionsI think he won't need any extensive
>> mentoring (although I'll be happy to assist Nathaniel in the
>> beginning).
>> 
>> Nathaniel has been a prolific PEP author:
>> 
>> * Single-authored: PEP 465 Matrix Multiplication (accepted), PEP 521,
>> PEP 533, PEP 568;
>> 
>> * Co-authored: PEP 513 (active), PEP 516, PEP 517 (accepted), PEP 518
>> (accepted), PEP 522.
>> 
>> * Many PEPs mention his name in acknowledgements.
>> 
>> He also has a few sufficiently complex patches committed, some of
>> which touch complex areas like ceval loop and signals handling:
>> 
>> * bpo-32591: Add native coroutine origin tracking
>> * bpo-30579: Allow TracebackType creation and tb_next mutation from Python
>> * bpo-30050: Allow disabling full buffer warnings in signal.set_wakeup_fd
>> * bpo-30039: Don't run signal handlers while resuming a yield from stack
>> * bpo-30038: fix race condition in signal delivery + wakeup fd
>> * etc
>> 
>> He's been very active on python-dev, python-ideas, bugs.python.org and
>> github. Here's an example where Nathaniel's research helped us to make
>> a right decision to fix a broken socket object API:
>> https://bugs.python.org/msg308450.
>> 
>> He helped me quite a bit with the design of PEP 550 and PEP 567, and
>> he's doing some interesting work in the async/await area.
>> 
>> So... let's make it happen? :)
>> 
>> Yury
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Re: [python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[Carol Willing]

> On Dec 9, 2017, at 3:01 PM, Victor Stinner <victor.stin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I agree with Mariatta, I don't think that yet another mailing list is needed 
> ;-)
> 

:-)

> Brett: it's ok reject Cherl's subscription, maybe it's just a 
> misunderstanding. I added Cheryl in CC to my email to python-commiters when I 
> announced that she got the bug triage permission. Maybe such email should be 
> sent to the core-mentorship mailing instead to be more consistent?

That's a good idea to announce on core-mentorship going forward.


> 
> Victor
> 
> Le 9 déc. 2017 19:37, "Mariatta Wijaya" <mariatta.wij...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:mariatta.wij...@gmail.com>> a écrit :
> I think questions about triaging can be asked in the regular core-mentorship 
> as those are useful for all contributors and core devs.
> 
> On Dec 9, 2017 10:23 AM, "Carol Willing" <willi...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:willi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Dec 9, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Brett Cannon <br...@python.org 
>> <mailto:br...@python.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> I have a subscription request to python-committers from Cheryl. Im planing 
>> rejecting it since we have kept this list only to committees, but I didn't 
>> want it to come off as rude when it happens.
>> 
>> I also don't know if we want a triage-only list.
>> 
> 
> Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a "core mentorship - triage" list 
> which core devs interested in mentoring and triage can help answer questions 
> from Cheryl and Sanyam and others down the road. Nice things about a list 
> like this is it could be low traffic and supportive while helping to build 
> maintainer skills over time. I would be happy to moderate and encourage folks 
> on a list like that.
> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017, 05:13 Victor Stinner, <victor.stin...@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:victor.stin...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> For your information, I just sent emails to Julien, Cheryl and Sanyam
>> to notify them that I will their mentor during one month.
>> 
>> I asked them to ask me to double check before merging a pull request
>> (Julien) or closing a bug (Cheryl and Sanyam).
>> 
>> Since I'm trying for formalize the whole process to become a core dev,
>> I kept a copy of my emails to serve as template for future mentors:
>> 
>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_core_dev_email.rst
>>  
>> <https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_core_dev_email.rst>
>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_bug_triage_email.rst
>>  
>> <https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_bug_triage_email.rst>
>> 
>> By the way, I'm now working on the "Process to become a core
>> developer" document (maybe becoming a PEP later?) at:
>> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/pep-core_dev_process.rst
>>  
>> <https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/pep-core_dev_process.rst>
>> (I almost didn't change since I sent it to python-committers)
>> 
>> Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Mentoring Julien Palard (core), Cheryl Sabella (bug) and Sanyam Khurana (bug)

[Carol Willing]

> On Dec 9, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> 
> I have a subscription request to python-committers from Cheryl. Im planing 
> rejecting it since we have kept this list only to committees, but I didn't 
> want it to come off as rude when it happens.
> 
> I also don't know if we want a triage-only list.
> 

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a "core mentorship - triage" list which 
core devs interested in mentoring and triage can help answer questions from 
Cheryl and Sanyam and others down the road. Nice things about a list like this 
is it could be low traffic and supportive while helping to build maintainer 
skills over time. I would be happy to moderate and encourage folks on a list 
like that.

> 
> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017, 05:13 Victor Stinner,  > wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> For your information, I just sent emails to Julien, Cheryl and Sanyam
> to notify them that I will their mentor during one month.
> 
> I asked them to ask me to double check before merging a pull request
> (Julien) or closing a bug (Cheryl and Sanyam).
> 
> Since I'm trying for formalize the whole process to become a core dev,
> I kept a copy of my emails to serve as template for future mentors:
> 
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_core_dev_email.rst
>  
> 
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/mentor_bug_triage_email.rst
>  
> 
> 
> By the way, I'm now working on the "Process to become a core
> developer" document (maybe becoming a PEP later?) at:
> https://github.com/vstinner/misc/blob/master/cpython/pep-core_dev_process.rst 
> 
> (I almost didn't change since I sent it to python-committers)
> 
> Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Promote Julien Palard as core developer

[Carol Willing]

Enthusiastic +1 from me. Great work on docs and localization.

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Ned Deily <n...@python.org> wrote:

> On Dec 6, 2017, at 19:48, Victor Stinner <victor.stin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I propose to promote Julien Palard as a core developer.
>
> A big +2 from me.  Julien has been extremely helpful over the past half
> year or so with multiple behind-the-scenes documentation build issues.  As
> Victor notes, he is familiar with the doc infrastructure, processes, and
> the people who work on them.  I've found him to be easy to work with and to
> display good judgement.  I would be very happy to see Julien take on a more
> formal role with our documentation process and any other area that he would
> like to get involved with.
>
> --
>   Ned Deily
>   n...@python.org -- []
>
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-- 
*Carol Willing*

Research Software Engineer
Project Jupyter at Cal Poly SLO

cawil...@calpoly.edu

*Signature strengths*
*Empathy - Relator - Ideation - Strategic - Learner*
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Re: [python-committers] Requirements to get the "bug triage" permission?

[Carol Willing]

> On Dec 6, 2017, at 5:39 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> Therefore, we should strive to attract more contributors in the hope
> that the number of core developers selected out of those contributors
> will also increase.
> 

Some very good discussion and points are being made here.

Bravo to Victor (and Ezio as well as others) for taking the initiative to 
foster contributors and recognizing / thanking them for their contributions. I 
think what Antoine pointed out about having the tools / permissions to be 
effective at contributing in whatever capacity is also very important. 

Having recognition without the tools or tools without recognition isn't 
optimal. Having both leads to the greatest likelihood for future contributions 
from an individual. Feeling valued and being effective are both critical to 
keeping a contributor engaged in the community. 

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Re: [python-committers] Adding Ivan Levkivskyi as a core committer

[Carol Willing]

+1 for nice work on the PEPs

> On Dec 6, 2017, at 4:26 AM, Andrew Svetlov  wrote:
> 
> +1
> 
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:47 AM Nick Coghlan  > wrote:
> On 6 December 2017 at 11:00, Guido van Rossum  > wrote:
> > I'd like to propose Ivan Levkivskyi as a new core committer. He's
> > (re-)written most of the typing.py module and will do so again for Python
> > 3.7, he's the sole or primary author on several PEPs (526, 544, 560, 562),
> > is co-author on several more (483, 561) and has been acknowledged in yet
> > others (557, 563).
> >
> > He is responsible for at least 16 commits in master.
> >
> > I have worked with him for a long time on typing.py and on mypy (where he is
> > a core dev) and I can vouch for him completely.
> 
> +1 from me - I found him very receptive to feedback and easy to work
> with when discuss his proposed changes to the runtime typing
> machinery.
> 
> Cheers,
> Nick.
> 
> --
> Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com    |   
> Brisbane, Australia
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> -- 
> Thanks,
> Andrew Svetlov
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Re: [python-committers] What is a CPython core developer?

[Carol Willing]

Thanks Victor for your commitment to this. :D

I particularly like Mariatta's comment on responsibility, Antoine's comments on 
humility and respect, and Victor's linked document.


> On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:26 AM, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> 
> +1 for the list Victor and Antoine have here!
> 
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 at 09:48 Antoine Pitrou  > wrote:
> 
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Thank you, this is a useful write-up!
> 
> Le 22/09/2017 à 16:26, Victor Stinner a écrit :
> >
> > I started to list "responsabilities" (is it the correct word?) of a
> > core developer.
> >
> > First of all, I like how Mariatta summarized a promotion (in an oral
> > discussion that we had). Becoming a core developer doesn't give
> > *power*, but *responsabilities*. (Sorry, I'm not sure about the exact
> > wording, maybe Mariatta can correct me here ;-))
> 
> Well, it gives both, which is the only way things can work sanely.
> If you give power without responsabilities, you are creating a jungle;
> if you give responsabilities without the power to exert them properly,
> you are creating frustration and a dysfunctional environment.
> 
> > I identified the following CPython core developers responsabilities:
> >
> > * Long term commitement. We someone lands a big chunk of code, we need
> > someone to maintain it for at least the next 2 years. Maybe for the
> > next 10 years. I think that some people sign with their blood to
> > maintain crappy code for their own life, but it's better to not
> > elaborate this part ;-)
> 
> Unfortunately we can't evaluate that in advance.  Even the person being
> promoted often does not known whether they'll still be there in 5 or 10
> years.  Hopefully that's on their horizon, but many factors can interfere.
> 
> I, personally, can only think of a couple of cases where a person being
> promoted core developer vanished a few months after that.  It's not a
> big deal in the grand scheme of things, though it *is* frustrating to
> spend your time mentoring and promoting someone (which also engages your
> own responsability, since you're the one vouching that they'll be up to
> the task) only to see that person produce little to no work as a core
> developer.
> 
> > * Review patches and pull requests. While we don't require not expect
> > newcomers to review, we expect that core developers dedicate a part of
> > their time on reviews.
> 
> Yes, I believe this is the most important part of being a core
> developer.  What it means is that core developers care about the quality
> of the whole code base (and also the non-code parts), not only their own
> contributions to it.
> 
> > * Know the CPython workflow. Be aware of the pre-commit and
> > post-commits CIs. How ideas are discussed. It's not only about writing
> > and pushing patches.
> 
> This part is also required from regular contributors, at least the
> experienced ones.
> 
> > * For C developer: know CPython specific issues like reference leaks
> > and the garbage collector. We expect that a core developer write code
> > with no reference leak, right? ;-)
> 
> This is no different from regular contributors posting patches with C
> code in them.
> 
> > * Good quality patches: proposed changes are good (or almost good) at
> > the first iteration. I'm not sure about this point, but I know a few
> > other developers have this requiurement to promote someone.
> 
> Or, if the code isn't good at the first iteration, the author is able to
> figure it out by themselves and doesn't rush merge it.  Of course,
> nobody is perfect, which is why non-trivial code written by core
> developers ideally goes through a review phase anyway.  But a general
> sense of what is "in good state for review/merging" vs. "just a draft
> I'm working on" is indeed, IMHO, preferrable.
> 
> > * Pushing core means becoming responsible for this code. For
> > regressions, backward compatibility, security, etc.
> 
> Yes, this is the whole "know the project's lifecycle" thing.  It also
> includes knowing what to backport or not.
> 
> > * Something else?
> 
> Two things I would add:
> 
> - Know to be nice and respectful to the others, at least to the extent
> they're nice and respectful to yourself :-)  We don't have a rock-star
> (or "bro", "wizard", "ninja", whatever the hyperbole of the day is)
> culture here.
> 
> - Show a bit of humility towards existing work and try to understand the
> decisions behind something before deciding to change it all.  That said,
> given Python's current position on the technical evolution and adoption
> curve, we get less and less proposals for sweeping changes (perhaps not
> enough, actually, since even when rejected, they help challenge the
> statu quo).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Promote Julien Palards as Committers on docsbuild-scripts

[Carol Willing]

+1


> On Jun 13, 2017, at 12:03 AM, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Would it be possible to give the commit bit to Julien Palards on the
> following project (only on this project)?
> 
>  https://github.com/python/docsbuild-scripts/pulls
> 
> His GitHub account is "JulienPalard":
> 
>  https://github.com/JulienPalard
> 
> Thanks to the migration to GitHub, we are now able to give access to
> someone to a single repository, no?
> 
> He wrote the documentation translation which has been accepted by Guido in 
> May:
> 
>  https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0545/
> 
> Julien needs to make minor changes to the documentation build system
> to support translations, see his pull request:
> 
>  https://github.com/python/docsbuild-scripts/pull/11
> 
> The Git repository of docsbuild-scripts has 41 commits and 7 of them
> (17%) are already written by Julien :-)
> 
> Victor
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Re: [python-committers] Guide to pushing to submitters' repo?

[Carol Willing]

> On May 25, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Antoine Pitrou <anto...@python.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 25/05/2017 à 17:52, Carol Willing a écrit :
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the pointer.  Unfortunately, it seems that it really wants to
>>> authenticate using username and password (even though browsing a public
>>> project):
>>> 
>>> $ hub checkout https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/1785
>>> github.com username: pitrou
>>> github.com password for pitrou (never stored): ^C
>> 
>> Antoine, do you have an SSH key stored within your GitHub account settings?
> 
> Yes, I do.
> 
>> You would still use the same command for hub to checkout the pull request, 
>> but GitHub would stop nagging for username/password.
> 
> Apparently not...

Looking at the hub man page https://hub.github.com/hub.1.html 
<https://hub.github.com/hub.1.html>, hub uses an OAuth token which is probably 
not set or not being found by the hub app.

See Configuration section and GitHub OAuth subsection in the man page. Hope 
that helps.


> 
> Regards
> 
> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Guide to pushing to submitters' repo?

[Carol Willing]

> On May 25, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 25/05/2017 à 16:05, Zachary Ware a écrit :
>> 
>> Unfortunately, GitHub does not allow pushing back to refs/pull/*.  To
>> get it to set you up to push back to the contributor's repo, you'd
>> need to provide the contributor's name and branch name, which is much
>> less convenient if you're just looking to try out a patch locally
>> without intending to push anything back.  If I can figure out a good
>> second alias for that, I'll be sure to share it.
> 
> If I knew how to do that, I certainly would :-)
> 
>> You may be interested in the `hub` tool, which has a command for
>> 'check out this PR and set up a remote for it' (though I can't
>> remember what it is at the moment).
> 
> Thanks for the pointer.  Unfortunately, it seems that it really wants to
> authenticate using username and password (even though browsing a public
> project):
> 
> $ hub checkout https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/1785
> github.com username: pitrou
> github.com password for pitrou (never stored): ^C

Antoine, do you have an SSH key stored within your GitHub account settings?

You would still use the same command for hub to checkout the pull request, but 
GitHub would stop nagging for username/password.

> 
> Regards
> 
> Antoine.
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Re: [python-committers] Proposing Carol Willing to become a core developer

[Carol Willing]

Thank you for developing, supporting, and growing Python. Your impact on 
science and education is so valuable, and I hope to continue encouraging users 
and learners of Python.

Thanks for all of the kind words. (Victor, I loved your summary of all the ways 
that people contribute to making the Python community and language.)

In the spirit of a Monty Python introduction...

What is your name? Carol

What is your quest? To combine Python and Jupyter to inspire and teach others.

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? For an African or 
European swallow, you can use Python, numpy, and Jupyter to calculate, explain, 
and share this information.

A special thank you to Guido for encouragement, kindness, and conversations 
about electronics tinkering. I look forward to working with the CPython team.

Warmly,

Carol

Carol Willing

Research Software Engineer
Project Jupyter at Cal Poly SLO

Director, Python Software Foundation

Signature Strengths
Empathy - Relator - Ideation - Strategic - Learner


> On May 24, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Brett Cannon <br...@python.org> wrote:
> 
> Done!
> 
> Carol, just accept the invitation to join the Python core team on GitHub at 
> https://github.com/python <https://github.com/python> and that's it! (I 
> already subscribed you to python-committers under your Gmail account and 
> Mariatta is taking care of recording the granting of your commit privileges.)
> 
> On Wed, 24 May 2017 at 08:16 Guido van Rossum <gu...@python.org 
> <mailto:gu...@python.org>> wrote:
> OK, I think we have enough +1 votes... Brett, will you make it happen?
> 
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:25 AM, Nick Coghlan <ncogh...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:ncogh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> On 24 May 2017 at 04:15, Brett Cannon <br...@python.org 
> <mailto:br...@python.org>> wrote:
> > While at the PyCon US sprints the idea came up of offering Carol Willing
> > developer privileges. Everyone at the table -- about 6 of us -- liked the
> > idea and Carol also said she would happy to become a core dev, so I'm
> > officially putting her forward for consideration.
> >
> > For those of you who don't know Carol, she basically knows our developer
> > workflow better than most of us. :) ; she's very active on the devguide and
> > core-mentorship. Carol has also attended the PyCon US language summit two
> > years in a row as a representative for the Jupyter project. She is actually
> > so good with new people that she managed to get my wife to make her first
> > open source contribution (something I never managed to do).
> >
> > As usual, if you support/object to this idea, please say so. :)
> 
> Definite +1 from me (I was actually thinking of emailing Carol about
> the idea before I saw this thread)
> 
> Cheers,
> Nick.
> 
> --
> Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com <mailto:ncogh...@gmail.com>   |   
> Brisbane, Australia
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> 
> 
> -- 
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido <http://python.org/~guido>)

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