On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 23:55, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> There are not many tools for treating bytes as text.
Well, what tools would you need that can be used also on bytes? Bytes
objects has a lot of the same methods like strings do, and that will
cover 99% of the cases. Most text tools assume
On 6/20/2010 9:33 PM, P.J. Eby wrote:
At 07:33 PM 6/20/2010 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
Do you have in mind any tools that could and should operate on both,
but do not?
From http://mail.python.org/pipermail/web-sig/2009-September/004105.html :
Thank for the concrete examples in this and your
At 11:47 PM 6/20/2010 +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:40:56 -0400
"P.J. Eby" wrote:
>
> Actually, I would say that it's more that (in the network protocol
> case) we *have* bytes, some of which we would like to *treat* as
> text, yet do not wish to constantly convert back and
At 08:08 AM 6/21/2010 +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote:
Perhaps if people could identify which specific string methods are
causing problems?
__getitem__(int) returns an integer rather than a bytestring, so
anything that manipulates individual characters can't be given bytes
and have it work.
That
At 07:33 PM 6/20/2010 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
Do you have in mind any tools that could and should operate on both,
but do not?
From http://mail.python.org/pipermail/web-sig/2009-September/004105.html :
"""The problem which arises is that unquoting of URLs in Python 3.X
stdlib can only be don
On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 08:01:08 am Laurens Van Houtven wrote:
> I think doing unicode/str properly in 2.x is very important, #python
> stresses it quite often, I think Py3k's strictness is a good idea
> because people very often write something that appears to work for a
> long time, and then someone
On 6/20/2010 5:55 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
2010/6/20 Antoine Pitrou:
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:40:56 -0400
"P.J. Eby" wrote:
Actually, I would say that it's more that (in the network protocol
case) we *have* bytes, some of which we would like to *treat* as
text, yet do not wish to constantly
Okay cool, we fixed it: http://python-commandments.org/python3.html
People are otherwise happy with the text?
Thanks for your continued input,
Laurens
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On 20 jun 2010, at 23:53, Nick Coghlan wrote:
About the only specific wording tweak I would suggest is that "little
regard for backwards compatibility" should be phrased as "less regard
for backwards compatibility". There were still quite a few idea
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 05:42, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 17:43:02 +0530
> Senthil Kumaran wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 01:51:04PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>> > FWIW, the EOL extension is now part of Mercurial:
>> > http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/EolExtension
>>
>> Sh
On 6/20/2010 5:53 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Simon de Vlieger wrote:
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In reply to the recent post by Laurens and the vow I made to change the text
which is presented on the python-commandments domain I have asked Lauren
Also, url's are bytestrings - by definition; if the standard library
has made them unicode objects in 3, I expect a lot of pain in the
webserver space.
-Rob
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On Jun 20, 2010, at 6:21 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 6/20/2010 4:10 PM, Jesse Noller wrote:
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:40 PM, P.J. Eby
wrote:
While reading over this thread, I'm wondering whether at least my
(WSGI-related) problems in this area would be solved by the
availability of
a ty
On 6/20/2010 4:10 PM, Jesse Noller wrote:
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:40 PM, P.J. Eby wrote:
While reading over this thread, I'm wondering whether at least my
(WSGI-related) problems in this area would be solved by the availability of
a type (say "bstr") that was simply a wrapper providing stri
> I hate to reply with a simple +1 - but I've heard this pain and
> proposal from a frightening number of people, something which allowed
> you to use bytes with some of the sting methods would go a really long
> way to solving a lot of peoples python 3 pain. I don't relish the idea
> that once peo
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 6/20/2010 8:26 AM, Giampaolo Rodolà wrote:
>
>> I attempted to port pyftpdlib to python 3 several times and the
>> biggest show stopper has always been the bytes / string difference
>> introduced by Python 3 which forces you to *know* and *
On 6/20/2010 1:30 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
The topic on #python seems unlikely to change at this point
I just verified that, thanks to Laurens and whoever, it has been.
It is now rather good.
Terry Jan Reedy
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2010/6/20 Antoine Pitrou :
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:40:56 -0400
> "P.J. Eby" wrote:
>>
>> Actually, I would say that it's more that (in the network protocol
>> case) we *have* bytes, some of which we would like to *treat* as
>> text, yet do not wish to constantly convert back and forth to
>> full-
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Simon de Vlieger wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> In reply to the recent post by Laurens and the vow I made to change the text
> which is presented on the python-commandments domain I have asked Laurens to
> write a new text on the subje
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:40:56 -0400
"P.J. Eby" wrote:
>
> Actually, I would say that it's more that (in the network protocol
> case) we *have* bytes, some of which we would like to *treat* as
> text, yet do not wish to constantly convert back and forth to
> full-blown unicode
Well, then why do
On 6/20/2010 8:26 AM, Giampaolo Rodolà wrote:
I attempted to port pyftpdlib to python 3 several times and the
biggest show stopper has always been the bytes / string difference
introduced by Python 3 which forces you to *know* and *use* Unicode
every time you deal with some text and 2to3 is comp
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 10:57:05AM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> Education is needed. When you search Google (or Bing, for that matter
> :-) for "python unicode" the first hit is
> http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/unicode, which is highly detailed but
> probably too much information for the typica
That's not actually up just yet, I'd like people to review it,
personally I think it's still a tad bit biased towards Py3k. Until
then I'm keeping the Py3.x document by Nick Efford up there.
Thanks for your continued participation and seemingly endless patience,
Laurens
___
Glad to hear the efforts are so appreciated. Unfortunately not
everyone agrees, but I'm beginning to think that's the tragedy of
internet politics :)
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 10:34 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 6/20/2010 6:35 AM, Laurens Van Houtven wrote:
> I have no idea what has been said by you
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In reply to the recent post by Laurens and the vow I made to change
the text which is presented on the python-commandments domain I have
asked Laurens to write a new text on the subject.
This message is a heads up to let all of you know that thi
On 6/20/2010 3:59 PM, Jesse Noller wrote:
I suspect; if we were to keep pushing the concept of sponsored sprints
/ bounties on Python 3 library porting, we could see things pick up
donation wise. I've long suspected that there are companies out there
who do have funds, but lack a target, and don
On 6/20/2010 6:35 AM, Laurens Van Houtven wrote:
I'm one of the active people in #python that some people dislike for
behavior with respect to Python 3.
As I wrote, I disliked the observable, written behavior, now changed.
You are obviously a fine person. We both love Python and have both
co
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:40 PM, P.J. Eby wrote:
> At 10:57 AM 6/20/2010 -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>
>> The problem comes exactly where you find it: when *porting* existing
>> code that uses aforementioned ways to alleviate the pain, you find
>> that the hacks no longer work and a properly l
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
...snip
>>
> Given the amount of interest this thread has generated I can't help
> wondering why it isn't more prominent in python.org content. Is the
> developer community completely disjoint with the web content editor
> community?
Yes.
> I
On 20/06/2010 17:00, Steve Holden wrote:
[snip...]
--
In writing this email to python-dev, I have reviewed my logs of #python
specifically looking for the phrase 'python 3'. Here are some packages that
were named in the conversations:
- py2exe
- cx_Freeze
- twisted
- PIL
- ctypes
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:10 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
> Am 20.06.2010 19:48, schrieb Stephen J. Turnbull:
>> How about "Python 3 is a work in progress" for the topic?
>
> I wouldn't say that, either - not more than Python 2 was a work in progress
> over the last 10 years.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 7:42 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Laurens Van Houtven writes:
> > Yeah, I think the reason for that rule is that the majority of people
> > asking about new software actually start or end up in this category.
>
> I think that the most experienced people have absurdly
Am 20.06.2010 19:48, schrieb Stephen J. Turnbull:
Laurens Van Houtven writes:
> Also, I'm pretty sure nobody has ever said that Python 3.x was a
> "failure", or anything like it. #python has claims that Python 3.x, as
> a platform for building production apps, is a work in progress
How
We currently have one release blocker for 2.7:
http://bugs.python.org/issue8959 It is a Windows and a ctypes
regression. As far as I can tell, the offending revision could just be
reverted but it does not merge cleanly. Can anyone offer more
expertise?
--
Regards,
Benjamin
___
At 10:57 AM 6/20/2010 -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
The problem comes exactly where you find it: when *porting* existing
code that uses aforementioned ways to alleviate the pain, you find
that the hacks no longer work and a properly layered design is needed
that clearly distinguishes between whi
Guido van Rossum writes:
> On the #python issue, I expect that IRC is much less influential that
> some here fear (and than some fervent IRC users believe). I don't see
> reason for panic or heavy-handed interference. OTOH engaging the
> channel operators more in python-dev sounds like a usefu
> If there is such a disconnect we should think about remedying it: a
> large "Python 2 or 3?" button could link to a reasoned discussion of the
> pros and cons as evinced in this thread. That way people will end up
> with the right version more often (and be writing Python 2 that will
> more easil
At 01:00 AM 6/21/2010 +0900, Steve Holden wrote:
If there is such a disconnect we should think about remedying it: a
large "Python 2 or 3?" button could link to a reasoned discussion of the
pros and cons as evinced in this thread. That way people will end up
with the right version more often (and
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull
wrote:
> Laurens Van Houtven writes:
>
> > Also, I'm pretty sure nobody has ever said that Python 3.x was a
> > "failure", or anything like it. #python has claims that Python 3.x, as
> > a platform for building production apps, is a work in p
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 7:30 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Antoine Pitrou writes:
> But we have a PR problem *now*. The loyal opposition clearly intend
> to continue trash-talking Python 3 until the libraries get to 100% (or
> a government-approved approximation of 100%). The topic on #python
Pass the ketchup, I need to eat my words.
I wrote:
> The loyal opposition clearly intend to continue trash-talking
> Python 3 until the libraries get to 100% (or a government-approved
> approximation of 100%). The topic on #python seems unlikely to
> change at this point, with both Glyph and
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 5:26 AM, Giampaolo Rodolà wrote:
> 2010/6/20 Steven D'Aprano :
>> Python 2.x introduced Unicode strings. Python 3.x merely makes them the
>> default.
>
> "Merely"? To me this looks as the main reason why a lot of projects
> haven't been ported to Python 3 yet.
> I attempted
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:26:28 +0200
Giampaolo Rodolà wrote:
> I attempted to port pyftpdlib to python 3 several times and the
> biggest show stopper has always been the bytes / string difference
> introduced by Python 3 which forces you to *know* and *use* Unicode
> every time you deal with some te
Laurens Van Houtven writes:
> Also, I'm pretty sure nobody has ever said that Python 3.x was a
> "failure", or anything like it. #python has claims that Python 3.x, as
> a platform for building production apps, is a work in progress
How about "Python 3 is a work in progress" for the topic? Th
On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 02:30:17 +0900
"Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote:
> Antoine Pitrou writes:
>
> > I think it's an unfortunate analogy.
>
> Propose a better one, then. I'm definitely not wedded to the ones
> I've proposed!
I'm not sure why you want an analogy. Python 3 improves the language
and d
Laurens Van Houtven writes:
> > The only situation in which I'd direct someone new to programming
> > away from Python 3 would be if they had a specific need to use a
> > library that wasn't yet supported.
>
> Yeah, I think the reason for that rule is that the majority of people
> asking abo
I can only imagine how difficult can it be to do such a conversion in
a project like Twisted or Django where the I/O plays a fundamental
role.
For Django, you don't need to imagine, but can look at the actual changes:
http://bitbucket.org/loewis/django-3k/
The choice of forcing the user to us
Antoine Pitrou writes:
> I think it's an unfortunate analogy.
Propose a better one, then. I'm definitely not wedded to the ones
I've proposed!
But we have a PR problem *now*. The loyal opposition clearly intend
to continue trash-talking Python 3 until the libraries get to 100% (or
a governmen
Am 20.06.2010 18:20, schrieb Laurens Van Houtven:
2.x or 3.x?
http://tinyurl.com/py2or3
If you are interested, we could host any material that somebody would
want to provide on http://python.org/py2or3 (which would be one letter
shorter :-). We could also make this a redirect.
Regards,
Mart
Am 20.06.2010 19:01, schrieb Antoine Pitrou:
On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 01:00:03 +0900
Steve Holden wrote:
Given the amount of interest this thread has generated I can't help
wondering why it isn't more prominent in python.org content. Is the
developer community completely disjoint with the web conte
Laurens Van Houtven wrote:
> Status update:
>
> Topic now says:
>
> NO LOL | Don't paste in here: use http://paste.pocoo.org/ |
> http://pound-python.org/ | Include Python version in questions | 2.x or 3.x?
> http://tinyurl.com/py2or3 | Tutorial: http://docs.python.org/tut/ | FAQ:
> http://effbot
On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 01:00:03 +0900
Steve Holden wrote:
>
> Given the amount of interest this thread has generated I can't help
> wondering why it isn't more prominent in python.org content. Is the
> developer community completely disjoint with the web content editor
> community?
Sorry for a naiv
Status update:
Topic now says:
NO LOL | Don't paste in here: use http://paste.pocoo.org/ |
http://pound-python.org/ | Include Python version in questions | 2.x or 3.x?
http://tinyurl.com/py2or3 | Tutorial: http://docs.python.org/tut/ | FAQ:
http://effbot.org/pyfaq/ | New Programmer? Read
http://t
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
> Glyph Lefkowitz wrote:
>> On Jun 19, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> Which is yet another reason I don't think it would be productive to
> attempt any kind of pre-emptive action against the #python team. They do
> serve a very useful pu
Stephen Thorne wrote:
> On 2010-06-19, Arc Riley wrote:
>> You mean Twisted support,
>
> No. I don't.
>
> Often, on #python, we get the situation where someone approaches us saying, "I
> have this problem in my python code, why does this not work for me?" and
> usually very quickly we establish t
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Nick Efford wrote:
> Thanks for explaining your position on this so carefully,
> Laurens. You've made many reasonable points which I hope will
> help to cool things down a little.
Cool, glad it's appreciated.
> Clearly, there are situations where it makes sense
On 2010-06-19, Arc Riley wrote:
> You mean Twisted support,
No. I don't.
Often, on #python, we get the situation where someone approaches us saying, "I
have this problem in my python code, why does this not work for me?" and
usually very quickly we establish the programmer has followed a tutorial
Glyph Lefkowitz wrote:
> On Jun 19, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
>
>> HoweverI have very little experience with IRC and consequently have
>> little idea what getting a permanent, owned, channel like #python
>> entails. Hence the '?' that follows.
>>
>> What do others think?
>
> Sure, this
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 11:08 PM, Nick Efford wrote:
> Not sure if I agree with you here; I regard people new to
> programming as the prime candidates for using Python 3. Many of
> the language changes have the effect of making it significantly
> easier to learn for newcomers (I wrote about this
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 13:33:35 +0200
> Laurens Van Houtven wrote:
> Perhaps lower the tone a bit on http://pound-python.org/ ?
> “foremost support system for developing quality Python
> applications” ... “crack team of Python experts” ... “Yo
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Laurens Van Houtven
> wrote:
> Given the number of other links that are already in the status
> message, it would be really nice if the comment could be updated to
> something like:
>
> "Is Python3 ready for
I'm sorry if you had the impression people wanted to nail you at the
stake for using Python 3. If that's how you felt, it isn't true. I
basically agree with Glyph. I don't think we've recently (I'm not
omnipresent) told anyone who had any good reasons to to stop using
Python 3. If someone's doing
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 13:33:35 +0200
Laurens Van Houtven wrote:
>
> (One of the problems people I've talked to in private that were
> "pretty miffed" about is the dissonance between #python and
> python-dev, and that there's some problem with people assuming things
> said on #python as being very a
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 9:33 PM, Laurens Van Houtven wrote:
> I'm not sure what sort of an effect it would have if we took it out.
> Maybe something we could try? I'm not sure it'd have much of a
> practical effect since most of the regulars expertise isn't going to
> shift instantly, so getting a
2010/6/20 Steven D'Aprano :
> Python 2.x introduced Unicode strings. Python 3.x merely makes them the
> default.
"Merely"? To me this looks as the main reason why a lot of projects
haven't been ported to Python 3 yet.
I attempted to port pyftpdlib to python 3 several times and the
biggest show sto
Michael,
Fair point! It's mostly put in the topic so people can ask about it
and we can give them more detailed answers, because, as other people
have mentioned, the exact answer depends largely on what *precisely*
someone is doing.
I'm not sure what sort of an effect it would have if we took it
On 20 Jun 2010, at 11:35, Laurens Van Houtven wrote:
Hello,
I'm one of the active people in #python that some people dislike for
behavior with respect to Python 3.
First of all I'd like to defuse the situation, much like Jacob.
Seriously. It's been a bunch of posts so far and most of them
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>> True, C++ does introduce a
>> lot of new features, but most programmers migrating from C to C++
>> don't learn to use them properly for years, if ever, I'm told.
>
> I don't see how Python 3 has that problem. You can be productive here
> an
Hello,
I'm one of the active people in #python that some people dislike for
behavior with respect to Python 3.
First of all I'd like to defuse the situation, much like Jacob.
Seriously. It's been a bunch of posts so far and most of them have
been pretty angry. Let's take a deep breath and try t
Steven D'Aprano writes:
> Comparing those who can and have successfully moved to Python3 with
> the Jonestown cult mass-suicide doesn't really strike me as a sign
> that you want to join them.
In my experience, many who refer to “drinking the Kool-Aid” are not
referring to the Jonestown suicide
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:14:02 +0900
"Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote:
>
> > had my experience would have been different. It's bad enough to have to
> > tell people "Python 3 is currently lacking some critical libraries,
> > particularly third-party libraries" without also telling them (wrongly
>
On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:05:46 +1000
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:13:34 am Tres Seaver wrote:
>
> > > I guess tutorial welcome, rather than patch welcome then ;)
> >
> > The only folks who can write the tutorial are the ones who have
> > already drunk the koolaid. Note that I've
Steven D'Aprano writes:
> Frankly, I believe that pushing the meme that "Python 3 is different" is
> a strategic mistake.
I agree that it's strategically undesirable. Unfortunately, the
genuine backward incompatibility, as well as the huge mind-share
already garnered by what I consider wrong-
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