[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Gregory P. Smith
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:04 PM Greg Ewing wrote: > A concern I have about this is what effect it will have on the > complexity of CPython's implementation. > > CPython is currently very simple and straightforward. Some parts > are not quite as simple as they used to be, but on the whole it's >

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Greg Ewing
A concern I have about this is what effect it will have on the complexity of CPython's implementation. CPython is currently very simple and straightforward. Some parts are not quite as simple as they used to be, but on the whole it's fairly easy to understand, and I consider this to be one of

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 11: Drop support for AIX releases without dlopen

2020-10-21 Thread Brett Cannon
On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM Kevin Adler wrote: > Brett Cannon wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 4:43 PM Kevin Adler kad...@linux.vnet.ibm.com > > wrote: > > > Should this list be updated to mention that AIX 5.3 and below are no > > > longer supported? > > > Only if we are going to rip out

[Python-Dev] Re: PyPy performance stats (was Re: Speeding up CPython)

2020-10-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 22:48:59 +1100 Chris Angelico wrote: > > Ah, cool, got it - thanks! My reading of this is that a good few of > the benchmarks are coming out firmly in PyPy's favour, but a number of > them are still in CPython's favour (including "telco" where PyPy is > staggeringly worse for

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Larry Hastings
On 10/21/20 5:58 AM, Petr Viktorin wrote: At the risk of going off topic: That's for GCC. As far as I know, MSVC uses something like __declspec( thread ). What are the options for generic C99 compilers, other than staying slow? As a practical matter: does CPython even support "generic C99

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Christian Heimes
On 21/10/2020 20.55, Larry Hastings wrote: > On 10/21/20 5:58 AM, Petr Viktorin wrote: >> At the risk of going off topic: That's for GCC. As far as I know, MSVC >> uses something like __declspec( thread ). >> What are the options for generic C99 compilers, other than staying slow? > > > As a

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Christian Heimes
On 21/10/2020 00.14, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:04:37PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote: > >> What I don't see is where the money's coming from. It's fine to ask, >> but will anyone come up with that sort of funding? > > I don't think Mark is asking for you or I to fund the

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Stefan Ring
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 3:51 AM Gregory P. Smith wrote: > > meta: i've written too many words and edited so often i can't see my own > typos and misedits anymore. i'll stop now. :) Haha! Very interesting background, thank you for writing down all of this!

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Matti Picus
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 3:38 AM Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: > some insulting FUD that is not worth repeating, and an apology Just to set the record straight, PyPy has been available on conda-forge [0] since March, and has seen close to 70,000

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 09:06:58AM +0200, Christian Heimes wrote: > On 21/10/2020 00.14, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:04:37PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote: > > > >> What I don't see is where the money's coming from. It's fine to ask, > >> but will anyone come up with that sort

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 16:10:27 +0100 Mark Shannon wrote: > Hi Antoine, > > On 20/10/2020 2:32 pm, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:53:34 +0100 > > Mark Shannon wrote: > >> Hi everyone, > >> > >> CPython is slow. We all know that, yet little is done to fix it. > >> > >> I'd like

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Chris Angelico
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 8:23 PM Matti Picus wrote: > Just to set the record straight, PyPy has been available on conda-forge > [0] since March, and has seen close to 70,000 downloads [1] from that > channel alone, in addition to the downloads from > https://downloads.python.org/pypy and the other

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Christian Heimes
On 21/10/2020 11.37, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 09:06:58AM +0200, Christian Heimes wrote: >> On 21/10/2020 00.14, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:04:37PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote: >>> What I don't see is where the money's coming from. It's fine to

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Paul Moore
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 08:14, Christian Heimes wrote: > > On 21/10/2020 00.14, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:04:37PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote: > > > >> What I don't see is where the money's coming from. It's fine to ask, > >> but will anyone come up with that sort of

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Christian Heimes
On 21/10/2020 09.35, Paul Moore wrote: > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 08:14, Christian Heimes wrote: >> >> On 21/10/2020 00.14, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:04:37PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote: >>> What I don't see is where the money's coming from. It's fine to ask, but

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Petr Viktorin
Let me explain an impression I'm getting. It is *just one aspect* of my opinion, one that doesn't make sense to me. Please tell me where it is wrong. In the C API, there's a somewhat controversial refactoring going on, which involves passing around tstate arguments. I'm not saying [the

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Simon Cross
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:28 AM Terry Reedy wrote: > I don't think the two projects are mutually exclusive. 100% agreed. I would even go as far as to say that HPy and other proposals to improve Python are mutually beneficial. HPy aims to remove dependencies between C extensions and Python

[Python-Dev] Re: PyPy performance stats (was Re: Speeding up CPython)

2020-10-21 Thread Chris Angelico
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 10:38 PM Matti Picus wrote: > > On 10/21/20 20:42:02 +1100 Chris Angelico wrote: > > > When I go looking for PyPy performance stats, everything seems to be > > Python 2.7. Is there anywhere that compares PyPy3 to CPython 3.6 (or > > whichever specific version)? Or maybe

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 640: Unused variable syntax.

2020-10-21 Thread Larry Hastings
On 10/20/20 10:45 PM, Paul Sokolovsky wrote: One problem with this PEP, which I didn't see mentioned in the other replies, is that it tries to grab "?" character, which is already sought-for by another pending PEP: "PEP 505 -- None-aware operators", https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0505/ .

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Petr Viktorin
On 10/21/20 1:40 PM, Mark Shannon wrote: Hi Petr, On 21/10/2020 11:49 am, Petr Viktorin wrote: Let me explain an impression I'm getting. It is *just one aspect* of my opinion, one that doesn't make sense to me. Please tell me where it is wrong. In the C API, there's a somewhat

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:49:54 +0200 Petr Viktorin wrote: > > Later, Mark says there is an even better way – or at least, a less > intrusive one! In [the second discussion], he hints at it vaguely (from > that limited info I have, it involves switching to C11 and/or using > compiler-specific

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Steve Holden
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 8:37 AM Paul Moore wrote: > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 08:14, Christian Heimes > wrote: > > > > On 21/10/2020 00.14, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 06:04:37PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote: > > > > > >> What I don't see is where the money's coming from. It's

[Python-Dev] Macro for logging

2020-10-21 Thread Marco Sulla
If not already present, do you think it's useful to add a macro that does something like # ifdef Py_DEBUG fprintf(stderr, "%s\n", message); # endif ? ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to

[Python-Dev] Re: Macro for logging

2020-10-21 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 14:19:37 +0200 Marco Sulla wrote: > If not already present, do you think it's useful to add a macro that does > something like > > # ifdef Py_DEBUG > fprintf(stderr, "%s\n", message); > # endif In general, you want to do this on a per-component basis, so each C source

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Mark Shannon
Hi Petr, On 21/10/2020 11:49 am, Petr Viktorin wrote: Let me explain an impression I'm getting. It is *just one aspect* of my opinion, one that doesn't make sense to me. Please tell me where it is wrong. In the C API, there's a somewhat controversial refactoring going on, which involves

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Larry Hastings
On 10/21/20 4:04 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: (apart from small fixes relating to borrowed references, and that's mostly to make PyPy's life easier). Speaking as the Gilectomy guy: borrowed references are evil.  The definition of the valid lifetime of a borrowed reference doesn't exist,

[Python-Dev] Re: Speeding up CPython

2020-10-21 Thread Ronald Oussoren via Python-Dev
> On 21 Oct 2020, at 14:39, Larry Hastings wrote: > > On 10/21/20 4:04 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> (apart from small fixes relating to borrowed references, and >> that's mostly to make PyPy's life easier). > > Speaking as the Gilectomy guy: borrowed references are evil. The definition > of