On 2/2/2019 10:59 AM, James Lu wrote:
I think we need to ... have some way of knowing that Python committees are
python committers. It’s really difficult to know how well your proposal is
doing without having this.
That has occurred to me also. If two or three core developers respond
>> On Feb 2, 2019, at 7:17 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 11:12:02AM -0500, James Lu wrote:
>>
>> This list IS hard for newcomers. I wish there was one place where I
>> could read up on how to not feel like a noob.
>
> It has become unfashionable to link to this,
Well, the question wasn’t about any specific proposal but improving
communication in general. I don’t have a specific straw man.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 2, 2019, at 7:00 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 10:59:36AM -0500, James Lu wrote:
>>
>> I think we need to
On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 21:20:40 +1100
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> Core developer Brett Cannon has taken up editing other people's comments
> on github if he doesn't approve of their tone.
>
> I'm now proactively editing people's comments on issues so
> they are less aggressive, e.g. "You
On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 23:38, James Lu wrote:
>
> It’s very demotivating to hear just negative feedback on this list.
>
> Was starting this thread useful for y’all?
In the interests of clear communication, no it wasn't.
In the interests of trying not to be *too* demotivating, the reason is
that
On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 7:07 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 10:57:40AM -0500, James Lu wrote:
> > It’s very demotivating to hear just negative feedback on this list.
> >
> > Was starting this thread useful for y’all?
>
> Do you want an honest answer, or positive feedback?
On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 10:57:40AM -0500, James Lu wrote:
> It’s very demotivating to hear just negative feedback on this list.
>
> Was starting this thread useful for y’all?
Do you want an honest answer, or positive feedback? ("It was great!")
Personally, no, it wasn't useful for me.
It was a
Note: none of the following is an endorsement of the r/python_ideas
idea. I'm just responding point-by-point to what you wrote.
On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 10:47 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> - I can have as many email identities as I like; I can only have one
> Reddit identity at a time.
Do you mean
On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 11:12:02AM -0500, James Lu wrote:
> This list IS hard for newcomers. I wish there was one place where I
> could read up on how to not feel like a noob.
It has become unfashionable to link to this, because it is allegedly too
elitest and unfriendly and not welcoming
On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 10:59:36AM -0500, James Lu wrote:
> I think we need to step away from the egalitarian ideal and have some
> way of knowing that Python committees are python committers. It’s
> really difficult to know how well your proposal is doing without
> having this.
Speaking of
I think we need to step away from the egalitarian ideal and have some way of
knowing that Python committees are python committers. It’s really difficult to
know how well your proposal is doing without having this.
___
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This list IS hard for newcomers. I wish there was one place where I could read
up on how to not feel like a noob.
___
Python-ideas mailing list
Python-ideas@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas
Code of Conduct:
It’s very demotivating to hear just negative feedback on this list.
Was starting this thread useful for y’all?
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Python-ideas@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas
Code of Conduct:
The community is really opened on the subject and I didn't receive any bad
feelings about my English writing.
I just wanted to remember everyone that a lot of us are non-native and
despite the fact we speak well, we might not actually transmit exactly
what we thought, nor understand what was
On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 06:12, Paul Moore wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 13:55, Adrien Ricocotam wrote:
> > Just a point about writing clear and precise English. For a good part of
> the audience and the writers, English is not our native language. Even if
> I’m considered good in English
On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 13:55, Adrien Ricocotam wrote:
> Just a point about writing clear and precise English. For a good part of the
> audience and the writers, English is not our native language. Even if I’m
> considered good in English according to the standards in France, will far
> from
Thanks Steve, that’s a good point, I might have been in one of the bad
things you describe.
It’s kinda funny that Python is conservative while being heavily used in
the most recent techonologies (referring to machine learning). I personally
think it’s not good but I might be too young for being
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 11:40:37AM -0500, James Lu wrote:
> So I want an open discussion on: How can we communicate clearer?
Remember the Curse of Knowledge: just because you know something, don't
imagine that all your readers know it too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 05:36:09PM -0600, Abe Dillon wrote:
> B) I don't know of any forum system that allows you to misrepresent some
> one else.
Core developer Brett Cannon has taken up editing other people's comments
on github if he doesn't approve of their tone.
I'm now proactively
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 12:35:15PM -0600, Abe Dillon wrote:
> I've pitched this before but gotten little feedback (especially positive
> feedback), but I think a Reddit-style forum would be a pretty vast
> improvement. We could easily start a python_ideas subreddit to try it out.
I don't think
* I didn't have time to read the whole convo' yet *
I think linking to a tutorial on "how to use a mailing list" that shows
some examples on popular email client like Gmail on android or Mail in iOS
would be something really helpful to beginners.
When they subscribe, a bot would send that link
Abe Dillon wrote:
As I've pointed out before, putting things in
chronological order doesn't force people to read anything, it just
favors new over old.
Um, what? People talking about chronological order here mean
*oldest to newest*, not the other way around. This is not meant
to "favour"
[Marcos Eliziario]
> Typical technical discussion in threaded discussion foruns
> --First Post
> -- First Level
> -- First level with an interesting idea (let's do B?)
> -- 2nd level discussing some potential issues with B
> -- 2nd level workaround for said issues, namely, making
[David Mertz]
> To be clear. Most of what I don't want is a system where OTHER people are
> relying on ratings rather than careful reading.
In my experience, there's nothing you can do to make other people read
anything carefully. Plus, many of the counterpoints have been "I have a lot
more
Typical technical discussion in threaded discussion foruns
--First Post
-- First Level
-- First level with an interesting idea (let's do B?)
-- 2nd level discussing some potential issues with B
-- 2nd level workaround for said issues, namely, making sure D
-- 2nd level more
To be clear. Most of what I don't want is a system where OTHER people are
relying on ratings rather than careful reading. I want to communicate on
changes where posts cannot be "voted up" or edited, etc.
Mind you, I do know this other than this sort of discussion had other
needs. GitHub issues
On 2/1/19 4:07 PM, Abe Dillon wrote:
One thing that's nice about Reddit is you can link to posts, so if you've
already discussed something at length in another thread,
you can simply refer to that discussion.
Mailman keeps an archive of all email sent to the python
mailing list, and the
[David Mertz]
> I have absolutely no interest in any system that arranges comments in
> anything but related thread and chronological order. I DO NOT want any
> rating or evaluation of comments of any kind other than my own evaluation
> based on reading them. Well, also in reading the informed
Simple tools, free-format are always more conductive to the free exchange
of ideas.
Let's not forget that a huge chunk of our current science and math was
built with scientists collaborating over physical mail delivered by
sailboats across the channel, train and even horse carriages.
Em sex, 1
Adrien Ricocotam wrote:
I think something that hasn't been cited is the poor readability of code
posted by mails. It's juste aweful to me. You may have a trick for good
formating but I think that's a good point for other systems, or at least
complementary systems to mails.
In my experience,
Adrien Ricocotam wrote:
On a forum (no matter the form), you can edit the original post. Thus,
when something was unclear, false or needed an edit, the author (or
others) can edit the original post. So when someone actually reads the
original post, s-he doesn't have to read the 20 mails of
I have absolutely no interest in any system that arranges comments in
anything but related thread and chronological order. I DO NOT want any
rating or evaluation of comments of any kind other than my own evaluation
based on reading them. Well, also in reading the informed opinions of other
[Marcos Eliziario]
> Email is based on open standards with multiple implementations, most of
> them open source, that you can run basically wherever you want.
> Reddit is a product from a company, with a privately controlled API, and
> that may not even be here tomorrow, and it is not based on
[Chris Angelico]
>
> > It's common etiquette to clearly label your edits. That's why you'll see
> people write "EDIT: I changed X, Y, and Z due to ".
> Requires cooperation and discipline.
Any form of civil communication requires cooperation and discipline.
[Chris Angelico]
> You have no proof
Email is based on open standards with multiple implementations, most of
them open source, that you can run basically wherever you want.
Reddit is a product from a company, with a privately controlled API, and
that may not even be here tomorrow, and it is not based on open standards.
What happens
[Chris Angelico]
> With emails, you get your choice of tools. With web forum systems, you
> get the forum host's choice of tools.
There are many 3rd party tools for interacting with Reddit.
It's all just data behind an API. There's no reason you couldn't have a
choice of tools for a forum
On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 10:00 AM Abe Dillon wrote:
>
> [Steven D'Aprano]
>>
>> The bottom line is that email can be sorted, filtered, shuffled, sliced
>> and diced in an almost infinite number of ways. If your email client
>> isn't good enough, blame the tool, not the technology.
>
>
> There's no
On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:52 AM Abe Dillon wrote:
>
> [Chris Angelico]
>>
>> And then people wonder whether quoted text really aligns with the
>> original post, whether "sort by post date/time" actually means what it
>> says, and whether people have actually changed their stance while
>> editing a
[Steven D'Aprano]
> The bottom line is that email can be sorted, filtered, shuffled, sliced
> and diced in an almost infinite number of ways. If your email client
> isn't good enough, blame the tool, not the technology.
There's no reason a forum system couldn't accommodate sorting, filtering,
[Chris Angelico]
>
> And then people wonder whether quoted text really aligns with the
> original post, whether "sort by post date/time" actually means what it
> says, and whether people have actually changed their stance while
> editing a post. No thank you. In accounting, git repositories, and
>
On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 9:21 AM Adrien Ricocotam wrote:
> On a forum (no matter the form), you can edit the original post. Thus, when
> something was unclear, false or needed an edit, the author (or others) can
> edit the original post. So when someone actually reads the original post,
> s-he
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 01:01:06PM -0600, Abe Dillon wrote:
[...]
> 2) You can control, to some degree, what gets to the top of your feed. In
> an email list, it's based on who posted last which seems hardly an
> improvement.
In any serious, non-toy mail client you can sort your mail by any of
On 01Feb2019 12:35, Abe Dillon wrote:
I've pitched this before but gotten little feedback (especially positive
feedback), but I think a Reddit-style forum would be a pretty vast
improvement. We could easily start a python_ideas subreddit to try it out.
Bear in mind that many participants here
@Steven D'Aprano 's big answer
Hi, thanks for this complete answer. I might have been a bit confusing so
i'll clear some details ;)
I sent about 3 mails (may be 4) in this mailing list and the python dev's
one. If I sent those emails it's because I felt legitimate to give my
opinion, ie : I had
[Dan Sommers]
> Another point in favor of email clients over web pages is
> that there are many of them, and *you* control the display
> and other preferences rather than whoever wrote the forum
> or owns the server.
There is a tool called the Reddit Enhancement Suite or RES (and probably
[Chris Angelico]
> Maybe not, but it's consistent. You can easily scan through a thread
> in the order it was posted.
That's true in the case of a subreddit conversation too.
I wouldn't suggest a system that doesn't let you see the whole conversation.
You can order comments by post-time if you
James Lu schrieb am 01.02.19 um 17:40:
> A lot of the traffic on this email list is people saying “I don’t understand”
> or “that’s not what I meant” or trying to re-explain. A lot of “-1”s are
> really “I don’t see the usefulness of this”.
>
> So I want an open discussion on: How can we
On 2/1/19 2:58 PM, Abe Dillon wrote:
[Dan Sommers]
A mailing list is not a feed... Dan, a decades and decades long fan of
mailing lists and real email clients.
I'm only familiar with Gmail which keeps reply chains coherent and moves
each chain to the top of my "forums" tab based on who
On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 7:59 AM Abe Dillon wrote:
>>
>> Whoever posted last ends up at the bottom of the thread, so that I can
>> read threads from top to bottom in chronological order. Getting the
>> last word in shouldn't earn a spot at the top of the list.
>
>
> That doesn't like any closer an
[Dan Sommers]
> A mailing list is not a feed... Dan, a decades and decades long fan of
> mailing lists and real email clients.
I'm only familiar with Gmail which keeps reply chains coherent and moves
each chain to the top of my "forums" tab based on who responded last.
I haven't explored the
On 2/1/19 1:01 PM, Abe Dillon wrote:
> [Steven D'Aprano]
>
>> This isn't Facebook or Reddit, where +1 Likes cause messages to move
>> to the top of your feed. (And thank goodness for that.) This is a
>> technical mailing list where the worth of a proposals usually depends
>> on merit, not the
> I want the discussion to focus not only on technical solutions like +1 or
> Mailman 3, but also social ones and how to better express oneself.
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If any non-email system is adopted, it will exclude me, and probably many
other contributors to this list. A mailing list is an appropriate and
useful format. "Discussion systems" are not.
On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 1:36 PM Abe Dillon wrote:
> I've pitched this before but gotten little feedback
[Steven D'Aprano]
> This isn't Facebook or Reddit, where +1 Likes cause messages to move to
> the top of your feed. (And thank goodness for that.) This is a technical
> mailing list where the worth of a proposals usually depends on merit,
> not the number of votes.
Since I just (almost
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 05:43:54PM +, Alex Shafer via Python-ideas wrote:
> Is there already, or would anyone be opposed to the creation of a
> #python-ideas on a large IRC network? I'd hope discussions there can
> have the same weight, merit, community involvement, and potential for
>
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 06:42:33PM +0100, Adrien Ricocotam wrote:
> I'm kinda new to those mailing lists and those are the only ones I ever
> subscribed so I'm a bit in the audience you're targeting James.
Hi Adrien, I see that you first posted in November and haven't posted
since.
> What I
I've pitched this before but gotten little feedback (especially positive
feedback), but I think a Reddit-style forum would be a pretty vast
improvement. We could easily start a python_ideas subreddit to try it out.
I know the google group presents threaded conversations, but I've run into
enough
+1 votes hardly add anything to a technical discussion, and in the
contrary, can and do easily lead to a dysfunctional decision style.
If you agree with someone else's idea, you probably have some rational
arguments behind it, some hard evidence that has not yet been discussed and
that could
+1 votes hardly add anything to a technical discussion, and in the
contrary, can and do easily lead to a dysfunctional decision style.
If you agree with someone else's idea, you probably have some rational
arguments behind it, some hard evidence that has not yet been discussed and
that could
>
>
> I honestly cannot tell if you are being rhetorical, or if you are
> so technically naive that you genuinely don't know that this is an email
> mailing list rather than instant messenger or IRC or some other form of
> instantaneous chat.
>
Both :p
Newcomers that never spoke on a forum are
Email Can be fast, as long as it is structured.
The list only impose the structure of "Thread" ie. Two mails are in the
same thread if they have the same subject.
Each thread can have it's own format.
Email use the quoting mechanism using leading ">" ane generally people do
not like html
I'm kinda new to those mailing lists and those are the only ones I ever
subscribed so I'm a bit in the audience you're targeting James.
What I think is bad using mailing list it's the absence of votes. I'd often
like to just hit a "+1" button for some mails just to say to the author I'm
with him
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 06:21:07PM +0100, Robert Vanden Eynde wrote:
> That's a nice question !
>
> The main thing is "is this list more EmailLike or MessengerLike"
This is a perfect example of the problem that James is referring to. I
honestly cannot tell if you are being rhetorical, or if you
Agreed, thanks James for asking.
And thanks for bringing up the issue of communication mode in different
mediums, Robert. I personally think the type of discussions taking place on
this list would be better suited to a more interactive or conversational medium.
Is there already, or would
On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 12:43 PM Adrien Ricocotam
wrote:
> What I think is bad using mailing list it's the absence of votes. I'd
> often like to just hit a "+1" button for some mails just to say to the
> author I'm with him and I think s.he's ideas are great.
>
I feel like the strongest virtue
That's a nice question !
The main thing is "is this list more EmailLike or MessengerLike"
When I speak on Messenger (or any instantaneous conversation software) I
send a lot of very small messages, like "+1", it's interactive, I'm
expecting a short answer.
If I say something stupid, I undo, if
A lot of the traffic on this email list is people saying “I don’t understand”
or “that’s not what I meant” or trying to re-explain. A lot of “-1”s are really
“I don’t see the usefulness of this”.
So I want an open discussion on: How can we communicate clearer?
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