Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet? Results on my poll on Twitter

[Mahmoud Hashemi]

Let the dissection of the Twitter-based biases and bubbles begin. :)

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 1:15 AM, Victor Stinner 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I created the following poll on Twitter with a duration of 7 days:
> """
> Is it Python 3 yet?
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2017-January/01.html
> I proposed to hide Python 2 by default from the http://python.org
> download page.
>
> ( ) It's Python 3 O'Clock!
> ( ) Have some legacy py2 code
> """
>
> Results on 692 votes:
>
> - 84% It's Python 3 O'Clock!
> - 16% Have some legacy py2 code
>
> I didn't expect so many votes!
>
> Victor
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Pavol Lisy]

On 2/7/17, Mike Miller  wrote:
> Hmm, agreed.  BTW, I think the current download page is *way* too
> complicated
> for new comers.
>
> There should be a giant button for the latest 3.x/64 (platform sniffed),
> and below it a more subtle button for the "LTS" 2.X/32.

I am afraid that "LTS" could confuse some people because python has
not standard LTS versions ( PEP-407 is deffered )

I rather propose to add end-of-life info (which is 2020-01-01 for 2.7
and 2021-12-23 for 3.6)

See: https://docs.python.org/devguide/#status-of-python-branches (BTW
link to this table could be useful to add on download page too)

One could probably also want to consider that some packages plan to
drop support for python2 before it's EOL (for example see:
http://www.python3statement.org/ ) but I think that download page has
not to be overcomplicated.
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Sven R. Kunze]

Agree with all of this. That's state of the art for many projects.


On 07.02.2017 07:35, Mike Miller wrote:
Hmm, agreed.  BTW, I think the current download page is *way* too 
complicated for new comers.


There should be a giant button for the latest 3.x/64 (platform sniffed),
and below it a more subtle button for the "LTS" 2.X/32.

The rest of the choices and text should be pushed to another page 
marked "advanced," including the PGP (boggle) section.


The Licenses through History section could be moved to About.

-Mike


On 2017-01-26 08:11, Victor Stinner wrote:

The download button of https://www.python.org/ currently gives the

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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Mike Miller]

Hmm, agreed.  BTW, I think the current download page is *way* too complicated 
for new comers.


There should be a giant button for the latest 3.x/64 (platform sniffed),
and below it a more subtle button for the "LTS" 2.X/32.

The rest of the choices and text should be pushed to another page marked 
"advanced," including the PGP (boggle) section.


The Licenses through History section could be moved to About.

-Mike


On 2017-01-26 08:11, Victor Stinner wrote:

The download button of https://www.python.org/ currently gives the

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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[C Anthony Risinger]

On Jan 27, 2017 4:51 PM, "Random832"  wrote:

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017, at 12:54, C Anthony Risinger wrote:
> I know the scientific community is a big and important part of the
> Python ecosystem, but I honestly believe other parts of Python are
> suffering from any dragging of feet at this point. Python 3 has been
> out nearly a decade, and I think it would be super for the community
> to take a bold stance (is it still bold 9 years later?) and really
> stand behind Python 3, prominently, almost actively working to
> diminish Python 2.

This particular subthread is regarding whether to make a 64-bit version
of python 2 and/or 3 (whatever is done regarding the other question) the
default download button for users coming from Win64 browsers. At least,
the bits you're responding to are talking about 32-bit libraries rather
than Python 2.


Yeah, I guess I was trying to push against any further stagnation, of any
kind, on forward-facing questions like 32/64 bit and 2/3 version. I
hesitated to say anything because I don't feel I'm adding much concrete or
even useful information to the conversation, but it's something that's been
building internally for a long time while observing the overarching tone
and outcomes of Python threads.

I can't articulate it we'll, or even fully isolate the reasons for it. All
I really know is how I feel when peers ask me about Python or the reading I
get when others speak about their experience using it. Python is absolutely
one of my favorite languages to write, yet I find myself recommending
against it, and watching others do the same. Python comes with caveats and
detailed explanations out the gate and people simply perceive higher
barriers and more chores.

I don't have any truly constructive input so I'll stop here; I only wanted
to voice that in my tiny tiny bubble, I'm watching market share diminish,
it's unfortunate, and I'm not sure what to do about it.
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[C Anthony Risinger]

So I realize this is subjective and just a personal experience, but over
the last 3-5 years I've really watched Python usage and popularity decline
in the "hearts and minds" of my peers, across a few different companies I
work with. At my current gig we don't even use Python anymore for tools
that will be distributed to an end user; we only use Python for internal
tooling.

With a still difficult distribution/compatibility story, I've watched
dozens of instances where people choose something else, usually Node or
Golang. The primary uses here are api and microservice-type applications,
developer tooling, and CLI apps. Even recent additions like `async` keyword
are causing more problems because it's not a useful general-purpose
concurrency primitive eg. like a goroutine or greenlets.

I know the scientific community is a big and important part of the Python
ecosystem, but I honestly believe other parts of Python are suffering from
any dragging of feet at this point. Python 3 has been out nearly a decade,
and I think it would be super for the community to take a bold stance (is
it still bold 9 years later?) and really stand behind Python 3,
prominently, almost actively working to diminish Python 2.

I've been hearing and reading about both for a long time, and honestly I'd
love one of them to go away! I don't even care which :-)

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 4:25 AM, Terry Reedy  wrote:

> On 1/27/2017 4:38 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 1:32 AM, Stephan Houben <
>> stephanh42-re5jqeeqqe8avxtiumw...@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> FWIW, I got the following statement from here:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/numpy/numpy/wiki/Numerical-software-on-Windows
>>>
>>> "Standard numpy and scipy binary releases on Windows use pre-compiled
>>> ATLAS
>>> libraries and are 32-bit only because of the difficulty of compiling
>>> ATLAS
>>> on 64-bit Windows. "
>>>
>>> Might want to double-check with the numpy folks; it would
>>> be too bad if numpy wouldn't work on the preferred Windows Python.
>>>
>>
>> That's out of date
>>
>
> Would be nice if it were updated...
>
>  -- official numpy releases have switched from ATLAS
>
>> to OpenBLAS (which requires some horrible frankencompiler system, but
>> it seems to work for now...), and there are 32- and 64-bit Windows
>> wheels up on PyPI: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/numpy/
>>
>
> and from
>
> NumPy, a fundamental package needed for scientific computing with Python.
> Numpy+MKL is linked to the Intel® Math Kernel Library and includes
> required DLLs in the numpy.core directory.
>
> numpy‑1.11.3+mkl‑cp27‑cp27m‑win32.whl
> numpy‑1.11.3+mkl‑cp27‑cp27m‑win_amd64.whl
> etc.
>
> All the several packages that require numpy also come in both versions.
>
> 64-bit is definitely what I'd recommend as a default to someone
>> wanting to use numpy, because when working with arrays it's too easy
>> to hit the 32-bit address space limit.
>>
>> -n
>>
>>
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
>
>
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-- 

C Anthony
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Terry Reedy]

On 1/27/2017 4:38 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote:

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 1:32 AM, Stephan Houben 
 wrote:

Hi all,

FWIW, I got the following statement from here:

https://github.com/numpy/numpy/wiki/Numerical-software-on-Windows

"Standard numpy and scipy binary releases on Windows use pre-compiled ATLAS
libraries and are 32-bit only because of the difficulty of compiling ATLAS
on 64-bit Windows. "

Might want to double-check with the numpy folks; it would
be too bad if numpy wouldn't work on the preferred Windows Python.


That's out of date


Would be nice if it were updated...

 -- official numpy releases have switched from ATLAS

to OpenBLAS (which requires some horrible frankencompiler system, but
it seems to work for now...), and there are 32- and 64-bit Windows
wheels up on PyPI: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/numpy/


and from

NumPy, a fundamental package needed for scientific computing with Python.
Numpy+MKL is linked to the Intel® Math Kernel Library and includes 
required DLLs in the numpy.core directory.


numpy‑1.11.3+mkl‑cp27‑cp27m‑win32.whl
numpy‑1.11.3+mkl‑cp27‑cp27m‑win_amd64.whl
etc.

All the several packages that require numpy also come in both versions.


64-bit is definitely what I'd recommend as a default to someone
wanting to use numpy, because when working with arrays it's too easy
to hit the 32-bit address space limit.

-n




--
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Nathaniel Smith]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 1:32 AM, Stephan Houben  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> FWIW, I got the following statement from here:
>
> https://github.com/numpy/numpy/wiki/Numerical-software-on-Windows
>
> "Standard numpy and scipy binary releases on Windows use pre-compiled ATLAS
> libraries and are 32-bit only because of the difficulty of compiling ATLAS
> on 64-bit Windows. "
>
> Might want to double-check with the numpy folks; it would
> be too bad if numpy wouldn't work on the preferred Windows Python.

That's out of date -- official numpy releases have switched from ATLAS
to OpenBLAS (which requires some horrible frankencompiler system, but
it seems to work for now...), and there are 32- and 64-bit Windows
wheels up on PyPI: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/numpy/

64-bit is definitely what I'd recommend as a default to someone
wanting to use numpy, because when working with arrays it's too easy
to hit the 32-bit address space limit.

-n

-- 
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Stephan Houben]

Hi all,

FWIW, I got the following statement from here:

https://github.com/numpy/numpy/wiki/Numerical-software-on-Windows

"Standard numpy and scipy binary releases on Windows use pre-compiled ATLAS
libraries and are 32-bit only because of the difficulty of compiling ATLAS
on 64-bit Windows. "

Might want to double-check with the numpy folks; it would
be too bad if numpy wouldn't work on the preferred Windows Python.

Stephan

2017-01-27 9:45 GMT+01:00 Paul Moore :

> Resending because Google Groups handling of mailing lists is broken
> :-( Sorry to anyone who gets double posts.
>
> On 27 January 2017 at 08:39, Paul Moore  wrote:
> > On 27 January 2017 at 06:22, Denis Akhiyarov 
> wrote:
> >> The problem is not in Python packages, but when gluing Python with
> other Windows apps or libraries.
> >
> > I would argue that anyone doing that is capable of looking for the
> > version they need. The proposal is simply to make the 64-bit version
> > what we offer by default, not to remove the 32-bit versions or even to
> > make them less prominent anywhere other than on the front page.
> >
> > Paul
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Paul Moore]

Resending because Google Groups handling of mailing lists is broken
:-( Sorry to anyone who gets double posts.

On 27 January 2017 at 08:39, Paul Moore  wrote:
> On 27 January 2017 at 06:22, Denis Akhiyarov  
> wrote:
>> The problem is not in Python packages, but when gluing Python with other 
>> Windows apps or libraries.
>
> I would argue that anyone doing that is capable of looking for the
> version they need. The proposal is simply to make the 64-bit version
> what we offer by default, not to remove the 32-bit versions or even to
> make them less prominent anywhere other than on the front page.
>
> Paul
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Terry Reedy]

On 1/26/2017 5:32 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:


Many applications on Windows are still 32-bit applications and
unless you process large amounts of data, a 32-bit Python
system is well worth using. In some cases, it's even needed,
e.g. if you have to use an extension which links to a 32-bit
library.


I look through the list of a few hundred windows packages at
http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/

The two packages that require CUDA 8 and CUDNN are 64-bit only.  As far 
as I saw in a careful check, all other windows binaries are available in 
both 32- and 64-bit versions.  The situation may be different on PyPI, 
but win64 will cover most thing likely to be used by a beginner.



--
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Matthias Bussonnier]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 7:20 PM, Nathaniel Smith  wrote:

> I also don't know why your numbers are so much larger than mine...

That's because copy/pasting from the html table prepend the row number
to the download count.

>> Also % seem swapped depending on python2 vs Python3, and quite different.
> Did you get something reversed here?

Still small majority of 64bit on Py3, but large majority of 32 Bit
download  on py2.

Python 3
90466   win_amd64  ~ 54%
75949   win32


Python 2
139051   win32  ~ 70%
 63554   win_amd64

-- 
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Nathaniel Smith]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Matthias Bussonnier
 wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
>
>> It's also relatively common to need a 64-bit Python, e.g. if running
>> programs that need more than 4 GiB of address space. (Data analysts
>> run into this fairly often.)
>>
>> I don't know enough about Windows to have an informed opinion about
>> how the trade-offs work out, but as an additional data point, it looks
>> like in the last ~week of PyPI downloads, 32-bit windows wheels have
>> been downloaded 379943 times, and 64-bit windows wheels have been
>> downloaded 331933 times [1], so it's pretty evenly split 53% / 47%.
>>
>
> How much of that is because of the default download on python.org ?
>
> Also % seem swapped depending on python2 vs Python3, and quite different.
>
> Python 3
> 190466   win_amd64  ~ 60%
> 275949   win32

Did you get something reversed here?

> Python 2
> 3139051 win32  ~ 87%
> 463554   win_amd64

I also don't know why your numbers are so much larger than mine...

-n

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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Rob Cliffe]

On 26/01/2017 17:49, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:


-1 on hiding Python 2.7. It's our LTS release, so something
we should be proud of until it goes out of support.

+1 on emphasizing the 3.6 button and de-emphasizing 2.7, e.g.
by making the 3.6 button yellow and the 2.7 grey.



Quite.
Please, de-emphasize Python 2.7 if appropriate (it seems to be the 
consensus), but do not hide it.  It is stable, and IMHO the most 
tried-and-tested version of Python.
As a 2.7 user, I would like to *decide* when to upgrade to Python 3, not 
to be pressured into it by events.

Best wishes,
Rob Cliffe
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[eryk sun]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:49 PM, Paul Moore  wrote:
> On 26 January 2017 at 22:32, M.-A. Lemburg  wrote:
>> On 26.01.2017 23:09, Random832 wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017, at 11:21, Paul Moore wrote:
 On a similar note, I always get caught out by the fact that the
 Windows default download is the 32-bit version. Are we not yet at a
 point where a sufficient majority of users have 64-bit machines, and
 32-bit should be seen as a "specialist" choice?
>>>
>>> I'm actually surprised it doesn't detect it, especially since it does
>>> detect Windows.
>>>
>>> (I bet fewer people have supported 32-bit windows versions than have
>>> Windows XP.)
>>
>> I think you have to differentiate a bit more between having a
>> 64-bit OS and running 64-bit applications.
>>
>> Many applications on Windows are still 32-bit applications and
>> unless you process large amounts of data, a 32-bit Python
>> system is well worth using. In some cases, it's even needed,
>> e.g. if you have to use an extension which links to a 32-bit
>> library.
>
> I agree that there are use cases for a 32-bit Python. But for the
> *average* user, I'd argue in favour of a 64-bit build as the default
> download.

Preferring the 64-bit version would be a friendlier experience for
novices in general nowadays. I've had to explain WOW64 file-system
redirection [1] and registry redirection [2] too many times to people
who are using 32-bit Python on 64-bit Windows. I've seen people waste
over a day on this silly problem. They can't imagine that Windows is
basically lying to them.

[1]: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa384187
[2]: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa384232
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 26.01.2017 23:09, Random832 wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017, at 11:21, Paul Moore wrote:
>> On a similar note, I always get caught out by the fact that the
>> Windows default download is the 32-bit version. Are we not yet at a
>> point where a sufficient majority of users have 64-bit machines, and
>> 32-bit should be seen as a "specialist" choice?
> 
> I'm actually surprised it doesn't detect it, especially since it does
> detect Windows.
> 
> (I bet fewer people have supported 32-bit windows versions than have
> Windows XP.)

I think you have to differentiate a bit more between having a
64-bit OS and running 64-bit applications.

Many applications on Windows are still 32-bit applications and
unless you process large amounts of data, a 32-bit Python
system is well worth using. In some cases, it's even needed,
e.g. if you have to use an extension which links to a 32-bit
library.

-- 
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Brett Cannon]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2017 at 08:39 Paul Moore  wrote:

> On 26 January 2017 at 16:11, Victor Stinner 
> wrote:
> > Is it time to "hide" Python 2.7 from the default choice and only show
> > Python 3.6 *by default*?
>
> Actually, looking back at the "Download" dropdown for Windows, I see
>
> Python 3.6.0Python 2.7.13
>
> That's not really that bad (I recalled it being worse) - Python 3 is
> on the left, which I'd interpret as "first", but otherwise the choices
> are pretty equal.
>
> The problem is that because it's 32-bit, I never really look at these
> options, I always go straight to "Other downloads", which is in a
> *really* weird order - 3.5.3, then 3.5.3rc1, then 3.6.0, then 2.7.13,
> ... "Full list of downloads" isn't much better - 3.4.6, 3.5.3, 3.6.0,
> 2.7.13, 3.4.5, ...
>
> +1 on tidying up, and consistently showing an order 3.6.0, 2.7.13,
> "other older versions". No matter where people end up, they should
> always see 3.6 as the first option, with 2.7 clearly available as "the
> other one".
>
> +0 on de-emphasising 2.7 still further. I'm in favour, and I think
> that people who need 2.7 in practice probably need it for
> compatibility with other parts of their system and so should likely be
> getting it from their vendor/distro rather than python.org.
>
> +1 on making the main download for Windows 64-bit.
>

+1 to what Paul proposes.
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[M.-A. Lemburg]

On 26.01.2017 17:11, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> The download button of https://www.python.org/ currently gives the
> choice between Python 2.7 and 3.6. I read more and more articles
> saying that we reached a point where Python 3 became more popular than
> Python 2, Python 3 has now enough new features to convince developers,
> etc.
> 
> Is it time to "hide" Python 2.7 from the default choice and only show
> Python 3.6 *by default*?
> 
> For example, I expect a single big [DOWNLOAD] button which would start
> the download of Python 3.6 for my platform.
> 
> If we cannot agree on hiding Python 2 by default, maybe we can at
> least replace the big [DOWNLOAD] button of Python 2 with a smaller
> button or replace it with a link to a different download page?

-1 on hiding Python 2.7. It's our LTS release, so something
we should be proud of until it goes out of support.

+1 on emphasizing the 3.6 button and de-emphasizing 2.7, e.g.
by making the 3.6 button yellow and the 2.7 grey.

Also +1 on what Paul suggested.

-- 
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[David Mertz]

Big YES!

On Jan 26, 2017 12:19 PM, "Berker Peksağ"  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 7:11 PM, Victor Stinner
>  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > The download button of https://www.python.org/ currently gives the
> > choice between Python 2.7 and 3.6. I read more and more articles
> > saying that we reached a point where Python 3 became more popular than
> > Python 2, Python 3 has now enough new features to convince developers,
> > etc.
> >
> > Is it time to "hide" Python 2.7 from the default choice and only show
> > Python 3.6 *by default*?
> >
> > For example, I expect a single big [DOWNLOAD] button which would start
> > the download of Python 3.6 for my platform.
> >
> > If we cannot agree on hiding Python 2 by default, maybe we can at
> > least replace the big [DOWNLOAD] button of Python 2 with a smaller
> > button or replace it with a link to a different download page?
> >
> > Latest news: Django 2.0 and Pyramid 2.0 will simply drop Python 2
> support.
>
> +1 from me too. It should be easily implemented so let me know if
> there is a consensus :)
>
> --Berker
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Victor Stinner]

2017-01-26 17:21 GMT+01:00 Paul Moore :
> On a similar note, I always get caught out by the fact that the
> Windows default download is the 32-bit version. Are we not yet at a
> point where a sufficient majority of users have 64-bit machines, and
> 32-bit should be seen as a "specialist" choice?

Ah right, I got screwed recently :-) Who still have Windows 32-bit nowadays?

Some Linux distributions even *dropped* 32-bit support.

Victor
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Nick Coghlan]

On 26 January 2017 at 17:11, Victor Stinner  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The download button of https://www.python.org/ currently gives the
> choice between Python 2.7 and 3.6. I read more and more articles
> saying that we reached a point where Python 3 became more popular than
> Python 2, Python 3 has now enough new features to convince developers,
> etc.
>
> Is it time to "hide" Python 2.7 from the default choice and only show
> Python 3.6 *by default*?
>
> For example, I expect a single big [DOWNLOAD] button which would start
> the download of Python 3.6 for my platform.

As a related point, there's an open docs issues worth mentioning:
http://bugs.python.org/issue26355

That RFE covers setting a "canonical" URL similar to what ReadTheDocs
supports: http://docs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/canonical.html

Such a change would have two purposes:

- consolidating all the links for any given major version into the
latest docs for that version in search engines
- migrating the legacy deep links in search engine results to the
qualified Python 2 URLs

Georg has indicated he's fine with the change, so it's just a matter
of someone finding the time to poke at the docs build config and how
RTFD did it in order to see how to set that up, and then backporting
it to *all* the 3.x and 2.x branches that use Sphinx for their docs
(even the ones that are otherwise closed to updates).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncogh...@gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Victor Stinner]

If you only want to vote +1 or -1 with no rationale, you may prefer to
vote on my Twitter poll:
https://twitter.com/VictorStinner/status/824654597235040257

Otherwise, please explain a little bit.

Victor
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Re: [Python-ideas] Is it Python 3 yet?

[Ryan Birmingham]

It's certainly an interesting transition period.
I'm not sure that the community is quite ready to just drop 2.7, but we
could take a hint from angular 's solution to this
issue and use small descriptions to guide more people to 3.6 rather than
2.7, then move to 2.7 being substantially smaller, then eventually to
dropping 2.7.

-Ryan Birmingham

On 26 January 2017 at 11:11, Victor Stinner 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The download button of https://www.python.org/ currently gives the
> choice between Python 2.7 and 3.6. I read more and more articles
> saying that we reached a point where Python 3 became more popular than
> Python 2, Python 3 has now enough new features to convince developers,
> etc.
>
> Is it time to "hide" Python 2.7 from the default choice and only show
> Python 3.6 *by default*?
>
> For example, I expect a single big [DOWNLOAD] button which would start
> the download of Python 3.6 for my platform.
>
> If we cannot agree on hiding Python 2 by default, maybe we can at
> least replace the big [DOWNLOAD] button of Python 2 with a smaller
> button or replace it with a link to a different download page?
>
> Latest news: Django 2.0 and Pyramid 2.0 will simply drop Python 2 support.
>
> Victor
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