Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Hi everyone, I just discovered this thread and thought I this is a good chance I do some advertisement. I was helping a friend doing Python tutorial and face a somewhat similar situation with beginners using Windows. It is not particularly difficult to teach them to use py, but with the vast

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

[Excuse any attribution errors, the quoting appears to have got badly messed up somehow] On 21 November 2017 at 06:21, Steve Barnes wrote: > > On 21/11/2017 00:32, Chris Barker wrote: >> I >> don't know what would be the best approach for adding copies/links of >>

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 21/11/2017 00:32, Chris Barker wrote: > On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Paul Moore > wrote: > > On 20 November 2017 at 21:59, Chris Barker > wrote: > > I don't understand

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Paul Moore wrote: > On 20 November 2017 at 21:59, Chris Barker wrote: > > I don't understand any of this enough to have an opinion, so while I'd > like > > to see py.exe be renamed python.exe, let's not let "the

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

>> BTW -- does pip install a "pip3" on Windows? > > No. Just "pip.exe". Looks like I should have checked. As others pointed out, it does (pip3.exe and pip3.6.exe). Apologies. Paul ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 20 November 2017 at 21:59, Chris Barker wrote: > I don't understand any of this enough to have an opinion, so while I'd like > to see py.exe be renamed python.exe, let's not let "the perfect be the enemy > of good enough". So, if someone can make the case that they can

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 20/11/17 21:59, Chris Barker wrote: BTW -- does pip install a "pip3" on Windows? -CHB -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer pip.exe, pip3.exe and pip3.6.exe are all in C:\Program Files\Python36\Scripts on my Windows 10 setup installed for all users. -- My fellow Pythonistas,

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

​ On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Chris Barker wrote: > BTW -- does pip install a "pip3" on Windows? > ​ In 3.6 it does: > find t:/Python36/ -iname 'pip*exe' t:/Python36/Scripts/pip.exe t:/Python36/Scripts/pip3.6.exe t:/Python36/Scripts/pip3.exe ​

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:14 AM, Steve Barnes wrote: > > >>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Steve Dower > My preferred solution for this is to rename "py.exe" to "python.exe" > ... > > Note that renaming py.exe to python.exe would have

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 17/11/2017 09:13, Paul Moore wrote: > On 17 November 2017 at 01:57, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> On 17 November 2017 at 05:15, Chris Barker wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Steve Dower >>> wrote: If you

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 17 November 2017 at 01:57, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 17 November 2017 at 05:15, Chris Barker wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Steve Dower >> wrote: >>> >>> If you write such a PEP, please also research and write

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 17 November 2017 at 05:15, Chris Barker wrote: > On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Steve Dower > wrote: > >> If you write such a PEP, please also research and write up the issues >> with modifying PATH on Windows (they're largely scattered

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Steve Dower wrote: > If you write such a PEP, please also research and write up the issues with > modifying PATH on Windows (they're largely scattered throughout bugs.p.o > and earlier discussions on python-dev). > Is anyone proposing

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Would something like this be helpful? (`python -m pip` seems to work fine after `conda install pip` after a miniconda install) https://gist.github.com/westurner/80e81cd4bf9b79acb5989622f2621655 ```python #!/usr/bin/env python """ Something like this as e.g site.discover (for use as ``python -m

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 16 November 2017 at 06:49, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 16 November 2017 at 05:29, Zachary Ware > wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Steve Dower >> wrote: >> > My preferred solution for this is to rename

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 16 November 2017 at 05:29, Zachary Ware wrote: > On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Steve Dower > wrote: > > My preferred solution for this is to rename "py.exe" to "python.exe" (or > > rather, make a copy of it with the new name), and

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Steve Dower wrote: > My preferred solution for this is to rename "py.exe" to "python.exe" (or > rather, make a copy of it with the new name), and extend (or more likely, > rewrite) the launcher such that: > > * if argv[0] == "py.exe", use

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 15Nov2017 0617, Nick Coghlan wrote: On 15 November 2017 at 22:46, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: Should I do a PEP with a summary of all the stuff we discussed ? I think a Windows-specific PEP covering adding PATH updates back to

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 15 November 2017 at 22:46, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > Le 13/11/2017 à 19:57, Chris Barker a écrit : > > 3) Make --user be be automatic for pip install. Not actually the > > default, but pip could do a user install if you don't have the > > permissions for a non-user

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Le 13/11/2017 à 19:57, Chris Barker a écrit : > This has gotten to be a big thread, and it's a pretty intractable > problem, but I think there are a few fairly small things that could be > done to at least make it a bit easier: > > 1) Add python2.exe and python3.exe files to the Windows

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 15 November 2017 at 19:51, Paul Moore wrote: > On 15 November 2017 at 08:22, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > On 15 November 2017 at 16:13, Steve Barnes > wrote: > >> > >> - "pip -X[.Y][-32|-64] operation ..." tries to find a python

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 15 November 2017 at 08:22, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 15 November 2017 at 16:13, Steve Barnes wrote: >> >> - "pip -X[.Y][-32|-64] operation ..." tries to find a python matching >> -X[.Y][-32|-64] and if it succeeds executes "python -m pip operation

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 15 November 2017 at 16:13, Steve Barnes wrote: > - "pip -X[.Y][-32|-64] operation ..." tries to find a python matching > -X[.Y][-32|-64] and if it succeeds executes "python -m pip operation > ..." with that python, (if it doesn't find a matching python is should >

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

>>> We still have to deal with the fact that basically every Unix >>> environment is "advanced" in the above sense (the python2/python3 >>> split). I don't have a solution for that (other than "upgrade to >>> Windows" ;-)). >> >> Provide the "py" command on linux and mac. And make it the default

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 15 November 2017 at 01:23, Stephan Houben wrote: > Hi Nick, > > 2017-11-14 11:07 GMT+01:00 Nick Coghlan : > >> On 14 November 2017 at 16:47, Michel Desmoulin > > wrote: >> >>> Proposal A: >>> --- >>> >>> Suffix

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Nov 13, 2017, at 1:53 PM, Paul Moore wrote: In principle, I agree with the ideas here, but there are some practical issues that make them somewhat less straightforward than we might like. And practically beats principally ;-) But yeah. 1) Add python2.exe and

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Hi Nick, 2017-11-14 11:07 GMT+01:00 Nick Coghlan : > On 14 November 2017 at 16:47, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: > >> Proposal A: >> --- >> >> Suffix Python executable on Windows like on Unix, so that people will >> type pythonX.X if they want

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Nov 14, 2017 02:39, "Chris Angelico" wrote: On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:47 PM, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > Proposal B: > > > Make pip and venv part of the standard and request debian that they > provide it. > > Pros: straight forward. > >

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 14 November 2017 at 10:02, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Paul Moore wrote: >> On 14 November 2017 at 03:08, Nathaniel Smith wrote: >>> On Nov 13, 2017 6:47 PM, "Nick Coghlan" wrote: >>

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 13:28:20 +0100 Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 12:14:50 +1000 > Nick Coghlan wrote: > > > > > > I don't think Windows ever had python2.exe/python3.exe, but I could be > > > wrong. > > > > Not that I'm aware of in the

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 07:45:09 +0100 Michel Desmoulin wrote: > > I think it's wrong to have a different setup on different plateforms. > Python is a portable language. It's also a language you use for quick > scripts and from a lot of non professional devs. > > Unifying

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 12:14:50 +1000 Nick Coghlan wrote: > > > > I don't think Windows ever had python2.exe/python3.exe, but I could be > > wrong. > > Not that I'm aware of in the python.org installers, and I don't think > ActivePython does either. I'm less sure about

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 14 November 2017 at 16:47, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > General summary so far > ### > > > This debate has been very civil so far and quite productive, so thanks > to everyone involved. > > Several issues and solution proposals have been mentioned,

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Paul Moore wrote: > On 14 November 2017 at 03:08, Nathaniel Smith wrote: >> On Nov 13, 2017 6:47 PM, "Nick Coghlan" wrote: > >>> and a pip.bat with the equivalent contents on Windows? >>> (Bonus: maybe

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 14 November 2017 at 03:08, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Nov 13, 2017 6:47 PM, "Nick Coghlan" wrote: >> and a pip.bat with the equivalent contents on Windows? >> (Bonus: maybe this would fix the problem with upgrading pip on >> Windows?) > > Depending on how

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 6:38 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:47 PM, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: >> Proposal B: >> >> >> Make pip and venv part of the standard and request debian that they >> provide it. >> >> Pros:

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:47 PM, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > Proposal B: > > > Make pip and venv part of the standard and request debian that they > provide it. > > Pros: straight forward. > > Cons: holy war in the making. If this would really cause such

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

General summary so far ### This debate has been very civil so far and quite productive, so thanks to everyone involved. Several issues and solution proposals have been mentioned, so I will make a summary here. Issue 1: running Python is a different command different OS when

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Le 12/11/2017 à 19:02, Stephan Houben a écrit : > > 2017-11-12 13:20 GMT+01:00 Paul Moore >: > > On 12 November 2017 at 06:19, Michel Desmoulin > > wrote: > > > Well,

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 14 November 2017 at 13:08, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Nov 13, 2017 6:47 PM, "Nick Coghlan" wrote: > > On 14 November 2017 at 11:51, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > > What if instead of installing a standard entry point, the pip > > executable

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Nov 13, 2017 6:47 PM, "Nick Coghlan" wrote: On 14 November 2017 at 11:51, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > What if instead of installing a standard entry point, the pip > executable was installed as > > #!/bin/sh > exec python -m pip "$@" > > on Unix-likes It

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 14 November 2017 at 11:51, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > What if instead of installing a standard entry point, the pip > executable was installed as > > #!/bin/sh > exec python -m pip "$@" > > on Unix-likes It would technically be enough to make the shebang line `#!/usr/bin/env

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Hi Chris, +1 to all three of these proposals! Stephan 2017-11-13 19:57 GMT+01:00 Chris Barker : > This has gotten to be a big thread, and it's a pretty intractable problem, > but I think there are a few fairly small things that could be done to at > least make it a bit

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

This has gotten to be a big thread, and it's a pretty intractable problem, but I think there are a few fairly small things that could be done to at least make it a bit easier: 1) Add python2.exe and python3.exe files to the Windows installers -- am I insane or did Windows used to have that? I

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > P.S. As a user, it's also genuinely irritating to have to always type > the "python -m " prefix when inside an active virtual environment, as > in that case, there isn't any ambiguity about which environment pip > should

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

> -Original Message- > From: Python-ideas [mailto:python-ideas-bounces+tritium- > list=sdamon@python.org] On Behalf Of Nick Coghlan > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 6:19 PM > To: Brendan Barnwell > Cc: python-ideas@python.org > Subject: Re: [Python-ideas]

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 13 November 2017 at 02:59, Brendan Barnwell wrote: > On 2017-11-12 05:18, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> * the `pip install` option really is nicer looking than `python -m pip >> install`, and it only has actual problems in the presence of multiple >> Python versions and when

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:18:26 +1000 Nick Coghlan wrote: > > We haven't forgotten our early years - we've just spent years (both > individually and collectively) working on the problem of helping > people get started with software development, and thus have a very > good idea

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

2017-11-12 13:20 GMT+01:00 Paul Moore : > On 12 November 2017 at 06:19, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: > > > Well, not exactly. Do you do python -m venv, or py -x.x -m venv or > > pythonx -m venv ? Wait, it's not installed by default on debian. > >

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 2017-11-12 05:18, Nick Coghlan wrote: * the `pip install` option really is nicer looking than `python -m pip install`, and it only has actual problems in the presence of multiple Python versions and when upgrading pip itself on Windows (plus: lots of third party guides recommend it, as do

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 12 November 2017 at 13:18, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> Seriously? Debian don't provide venv in the standard Python install? >> That's just broken. > > Yup. And RHEL/CentOS don't provide Python 3.x by default at all - you > need to grab it via other means. Wow. I have no problem

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 12 November 2017 at 22:20, Paul Moore wrote: > On 12 November 2017 at 06:19, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: >>> We still have to deal with the fact that basically every Unix >>> environment is "advanced" in the above sense (the python2/python3 >>>

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 12 November 2017 at 06:19, Michel Desmoulin wrote: >> 1. Go back to adding Python to PATH. Because our installers don't say >> "do you want to uninstall the old version", we should probably do a >> check for a "python" command on PATH in the installer, and if there

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 12 November 2017 at 16:20, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > Le 10/11/2017 à 09:01, Nick Coghlan a écrit : >> On 10 November 2017 at 17:05, Michel Desmoulin >> wrote: >> When we choose not to use venv, then it becomes necessary to ensure >> each

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Le 10/11/2017 à 12:41, Oleg Broytman a écrit : > On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 09:50:22AM +, Paul Moore > wrote: >> The biggest reason we don't add Python to PATH, as I understand it, is >> because we need to consider the implications of people having multiple >> versions of

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Le 10/11/2017 à 09:01, Nick Coghlan a écrit : > On 10 November 2017 at 17:05, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: >> >>> Which is why we advise getting into a virtual environment ASAP, such >>> that the only platform specific thing folks necessarily need to learn >>> to get

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

> On Windows, which is the only platform I can reasonably comment on, > the killer issue is that the installer doesn't make the commands > "python" and "pip" available by default. Just checking my PC, both go > and rust (which I installed *ages* ago) do appear to, so they "just > work". Java

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 10 November 2017 at 11:37, Oleg Broytman wrote: > On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 07:48:35AM +0100, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: >> On linux you >> can't pip install, you need --users, admin rights or a virtualenv. > >Isn't it the same on Windows? For an

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 09:50:22AM +, Paul Moore wrote: > The biggest reason we don't add Python to PATH, as I understand it, is > because we need to consider the implications of people having multiple > versions of Python installed. Why not fix that the same way as

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 07:48:35AM +0100, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > On linux you > can't pip install, you need --users, admin rights or a virtualenv. Isn't it the same on Windows? For an admin-installed Python you need --users, admin rights or a virtualenv. And a

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 10 November 2017 at 10:01, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 10 November 2017 at 19:50, Paul Moore wrote: >> On 10 November 2017 at 08:01, Nick Coghlan wrote: >>> That tooling is venv: >>> >>> * it ensures you have "pip" on your PATH >>> *

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 10 November 2017 at 19:50, Paul Moore wrote: > On 10 November 2017 at 08:01, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> That tooling is venv: >> >> * it ensures you have "pip" on your PATH >> * it ensures you have "python" on your PATH >> * it ensures that you have the

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 10 November 2017 at 08:01, Nick Coghlan wrote: > You can't have it both ways - the only way we can systematically mask > the environmental differences between Windows, Linux and Mac OS X is > by providing tooling that actually masks those differences, which > means

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 10 November 2017 at 17:05, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > >> Which is why we advise getting into a virtual environment ASAP, such >> that the only platform specific thing folks necessarily need to learn >> to get started is how to get to that first working virtual >>

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 10 November 2017 at 16:55, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > ensurepip may depend of youself having an internet connection when you > install it. And without a proxy. And it's not used on debian flavours. No, ensurepip doesn't depend on internet access (by design - it's the

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Le 07/11/2017 à 14:06, אלעזר a écrit : > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:45 PM Nick Coghlan > wrote: > > On 7 November 2017 at 03:52, Michel Desmoulin > > wrote: > > > And assume

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

> Which is why we advise getting into a virtual environment ASAP, such > that the only platform specific thing folks necessarily need to learn > to get started is how to get to that first working virtual > environment. > You can't start by teaching virtualenv. I tried. It doesn't work. And it's

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Le 07/11/2017 à 22:26, Paul Moore a écrit : > On 7 November 2017 at 20:38, Chris Barker wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 5:04 AM, Thomas Jollans wrote: >>> >>> As Ivan said earlier, perhaps the Windows installers should provide a >>> "python3" executable,

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

> > there can be multiple python2 or 3s too... > > at least with: > > python? -m pip install > > you will get the pip that matches the python you use... Not on windows. You have the py command. My all point is that each of the specific issues I mentioned are A and B but not C propositions.

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

> Isn't pip installed by default on Windows and OSX? On Linux some > distribution will probably do something unexpected and mess up your > grand plan. Some installers download pip, which won't work if you don't have an internet connection or a proxy setup. But my point is, all this should be

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

> > I.e., Install under the "Python 3.6" start menu an additional > "Python command prompt", which will > start cmd.exe with an appropriate PATH so that python and pip > run without further prefix. > > That way, the installer still doesn't need to mess with global PATH and > you can > easily

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Le 06/11/2017 à 23:48, Chris Barker a écrit : > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Michel Desmoulin > > wrote: > > I know and you still: > > - have to use py -m on windows, python3 linux, python in virtualenv... > > > can't

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 06/11/17 22:53, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-ideas wrote: You can't. Windows versions don't create versioned executables. Got bitten with this myself. You either use py -x.y -mpip or you can directly use pip.exe, pepx.exe or pipx.y.exe. ...Maybe they should? (This is python-ideas, after all

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 07.11.2017 23:38, Chris Barker wrote: with ensurepip, having pip no installed in a python is getting less common, so maybe this isn't needed anymore, but pip is problematic in environments that have their own package manager (i.e. anything but bare Windows) because it doesn't honor its

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 7 November 2017 at 20:38, Chris Barker wrote: > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 5:04 AM, Thomas Jollans wrote: >> >> As Ivan said earlier, perhaps the Windows installers should provide a >> "python3" executable, so "python3 -m pip" works everywhere. > > absolutely!

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 5:04 AM, Thomas Jollans wrote: > > As Ivan said earlier, perhaps the Windows installers should provide a > "python3" executable, so "python3 -m pip" works everywhere. > absolutely! I really, really thought it did (I'm amazed I never heard from a single

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 07.11.2017 18:34, Stephan Houben wrote: One (smaller) suggestion on the PATH situation on Windows: I noticed that Visual C++ Build Tools installs a number of  "Command prompts" under its Start menu item, each of which starts a cmd.exe with appropriate PATH set to the appropriate compiler

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

One (smaller) suggestion on the PATH situation on Windows: I noticed that Visual C++ Build Tools installs a number of "Command prompts" under its Start menu item, each of which starts a cmd.exe with appropriate PATH set to the appropriate compiler (32/64 bits or ARM cross-compiler), and assorted

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 07.11.2017 16:11, Paul Moore wrote: It is, but like any such approach (Cygwin is similar, in principle if not in execution) that makes one OS "look like" another, whether it's appropriate is very dependent on circumstances. Training potential Windows developers in a bash/Ubuntu style

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 7 November 2017 at 13:06, אלעזר wrote: > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:45 PM Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> On 7 November 2017 at 03:52, Michel Desmoulin >> wrote: >> >> > And assume that stuff in any tutorial you make they know this

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 2017-11-06 19:04, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > >> I don't see anything particularly bogging here. >> It's always like this when you have multiple versions of the same >> software on the system. There's only one PATH, after all. >> >> Heck, *the mere fact that Python allows to work like this is

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 7 November 2017 at 12:44, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> - make sure the system path is correctly set > > Recent python.org Windows installers do this automatically, but there > are unfortunately still lots of ways for things to go wrong. I believe the latest installers switch it

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 2017-11-06 23:53, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-ideas wrote: > On 07.11.2017 1:48, Chris Barker wrote: >> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Michel Desmoulin >> > wrote: >> >> I know and you still: >> >> - have to use py -m on windows,

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 2:45 PM Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 7 November 2017 at 03:52, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: > And assume that stuff in any tutorial you make they know this stuff. > > > > This is a strong barrier or entry IMO. > > Sure, but it's

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 7 November 2017 at 03:52, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > > > Le 06/11/2017 à 09:47, Nick Coghlan a écrit : >> On 6 November 2017 at 16:47, Michel Desmoulin >> wrote: >>> I really want some people from this list to discuss here so we can find

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 07.11.2017 1:48, Chris Barker wrote: On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: I know and you still: - have to use py -m on windows, python3 linux, python in virtualenv... can't you use python3 -m pip

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > I know and you still: > > - have to use py -m on windows, python3 linux, python in virtualenv... > can't you use python3 -m pip install . everywhere? That's what I tell my beginner students to do, and

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

> I don't see anything particularly bogging here. > It's always like this when you have multiple versions of the same > software on the system. There's only one PATH, after all. > > Heck, *the mere fact that Python allows to work like this is already a > huge leap forward.* **Doing this

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Le 06/11/2017 à 09:50, Stephan Houben a écrit : > Hi Michel, > > That's exactly why I proposed a `pip` function available from the Python > prompt. > I suppose you could still tell your students to copy/paste the following > into their > Python interpreter. > > def pip(args): >     import sys

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

> > Software Carpentry starts out with the Anaconda distribution, as it > not only improves the cross-platform UX consistent situation, it also > deals with the external binary dependency problem (at least for the > core set of packages provided either natively or via conda-forge). > Yeah but

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Le 06/11/2017 à 09:47, Nick Coghlan a écrit : > On 6 November 2017 at 16:47, Michel Desmoulin > wrote: >> I really want some people from this list to discuss here so we can find >> a way to either unify a bit the way we install and use pip, or find a >> way to

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

> > Do you know about "fades"? > > https://fades.readthedocs.io/en/release_6_0/ So when they read any tutorial online they don't have reusable knowledge ? ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 06.11.2017 9:47, Michel Desmoulin wrote: Hello, Today I'm going to give a training in Python again. And again it will go the same way. On Mac I will have to make people install python, then tell them to use pip3. On Windows, I will have to warn them about checking the "add python

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 6 November 2017 at 18:50, Stephan Houben wrote: > Hi Michel, > > That's exactly why I proposed a `pip` function available from the Python > prompt. > I suppose you could still tell your students to copy/paste the following > into their > Python interpreter. > > def

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Hi Michel, That's exactly why I proposed a `pip` function available from the Python prompt. I suppose you could still tell your students to copy/paste the following into their Python interpreter. def pip(args): import sys import subprocess subprocess.check_call([sys.executable, "-m",

Re: [Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

On 6 November 2017 at 16:47, Michel Desmoulin wrote: > I really want some people from this list to discuss here so we can find > a way to either unify a bit the way we install and use pip, or find a > way to express a tutorial that always works for people on the most >