Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Ray]

In the regulatory vacuum that ensued, we now have dozens of unregulated 
connectors, no way of knowing what might be on past jobs, confused 
installers, nervous customers, while the market they tried to control is 
flooded with "MC 4" crimpers on Amazon for $20.


All of this for the main connector used millions of times in almost ALL 
Solar installations.  I don't blame just the specific manufacturers that 
might have benefited briefly from this lack of standards, but all of us 
for letting this happen literally right in front of our eyes, and to go 
on for over a decade.


The high DC voltages being used by most GT installs these days warrant 
serious improvements in our safety standards process.


Arc fault detectors are not the first line of defense, good connections 
are.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/19/19 5:48 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
Someone previously at AEE tried to get NEMA involved in setting a 
standard, but it turned out that they were not getting cooperation 
from the mfg, so could not proceed.


Brad

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:28 PM Bryan Norkunas <mailto:br...@pv-cables.com>> wrote:


Yes, I have seen and have copies of many of these 3^rd party
“compatibility” tests.

*From:*Brian Mehalic [mailto:br...@solarenergy.org
<mailto:br...@solarenergy.org>]
*Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 1:16 PM
*To:* Bryan Norkunas
*Cc:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

You say you've seen many of these tests in the past; do you
specifically mean the intermatability test?

Thanks for the info! (And you also really helped me out
identifying some connectors on a problem-job a couple months
back...thanks again!).

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59

National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member

(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services

http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com>

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:07 PM Bryan Norkunas
mailto:br...@pv-cables.com>> wrote:

Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in
the past –

but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors,
it has always been 14AWG for some reason.

And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in
the last 10 years we have never had the request to manufacture
anything smaller than 12AWG when it came to PV Connectors.

*Bryan Norkunas*

br...@pv-cables.com <mailto:br...@pv-cables.com>

Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140

*PV-Cables Inc.*

1155 Redway Drive

PO Box 2562

Redway, CA 95560

(707) 923-3000 office

www.pv-cables.com <http://www.pv-cables.com/>

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf
Of *Bryan Norkunas
*Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mDescription:
Description: cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470ismatch

Ray,

Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4
connectors, then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors.

The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues
and we assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers.

Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the
Amphenol UTX/H4 to MC4 connections failing.  (I attached the
Compatibility letter that Solarworld was providing their
customers, as well as the Amphenol Compatibility documents )

Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the
plastic housings to determine the terminal overlap of cross
mated connectors.

Here are my notes from back then:

The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305”

The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265”

A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully
seating MC4 female to the H4 male.  It takes some force to get
them to fit completely and a nightmare to disconnect if needed.

These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity
environments.  The picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated.

cid:image003.jpg@01D18A5E.48835320

Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their
modules over the years.

Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount
of experience with them.  Jinko still does not offer a
crimping tool for their connectors, that I know of and still
only UL for 20A.  We do little work with these

Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Bradley Bassett]

Someone previously at AEE tried to get NEMA involved in setting a standard,
but it turned out that they were not getting cooperation from the mfg, so
could not proceed.

Brad

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:28 PM Bryan Norkunas  wrote:

> Yes, I have seen and have copies of many of these 3rd party
> “compatibility” tests.
>
>
>
> *From:* Brian Mehalic [mailto:br...@solarenergy.org]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 1:16 PM
> *To:* Bryan Norkunas
> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch
>
>
>
> You say you've seen many of these tests in the past; do you specifically
> mean the intermatability test?
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info! (And you also really helped me out identifying some
> connectors on a problem-job a couple months back...thanks again!).
>
>
>
> Brian Mehalic
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
>
> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
>
> (520) 204-6639
>
>
>
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org
>
>
>
> SEI Professional Services
>
> http://www.seisolarpros.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:07 PM Bryan Norkunas 
> wrote:
>
> Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in the past –
>
> but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors, it has always
> been 14AWG for some reason.
>
>
>
> And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in the last 10
> years we have never had the request to manufacture anything smaller than
> 12AWG when it came to PV Connectors.
>
>
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> br...@pv-cables.com
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140]
>
> *PV-Cables Inc.*
>
> 1155 Redway Drive
>
> PO Box 2562
>
> Redway, CA 95560
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector m[image: Description: Description:
> cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470]ismatch
>
>
>
> Ray,
>
>
>
> Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 connectors,
> then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors.
>
>
>
> The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues and we
> assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers.
>
>
>
> Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the Amphenol UTX/H4 to
> MC4 connections failing.  (I attached the Compatibility letter that
> Solarworld was providing their customers, as well as the Amphenol
> Compatibility documents )
>
>
>
> Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the plastic housings
> to determine the terminal overlap of cross mated connectors.
>
> Here are my notes from back then:
>
> The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305”
>
> The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265”
>
> A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully seating MC4
> female to the H4 male.  It takes some force to get them to fit completely
> and a nightmare to disconnect if needed.
>
> These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity environments.  The
> picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated.
>
> [image: cid:image003.jpg@01D18A5E.48835320]
>
>
>
>
>
> Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their modules over the
> years.
>
>
>
> Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount of
> experience with them.  Jinko still does not offer a crimping tool for their
> connectors, that I know of and still only UL for 20A.  We do little work
> with these connectors, so my input here might be outdated.
>
>
>
> Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of ours doing good
> work on obtaining the connector/module info from module manufactures, prior
> to placing their blanket orders.  In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically
> supplying them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, adapters,
> etc.And finally the end customer is knowing what connectors on the
> modules they are purchasing, with the availability of getting the correct
> connectors/homerun cables needed to complete the install.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> br...@pv-cables.com
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140]
>
> *PV-Cables Inc.*
>
> 1155 Redway Drive
>
> PO Box 2562
>
> Redway, CA 95560
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Bryan Norkunas]

Yes, I have seen and have copies of many of these 3rd party “compatibility” 
tests.

 

From: Brian Mehalic [mailto:br...@solarenergy.org] 
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 1:16 PM
To: Bryan Norkunas
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

 

You say you've seen many of these tests in the past; do you specifically mean 
the intermatability test?

 

Thanks for the info! (And you also really helped me out identifying some 
connectors on a problem-job a couple months back...thanks again!).


 

Brian Mehalic 
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59

National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member

(520) 204-6639

 

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

 

SEI Professional Services

 <http://www.seisolarpros.com> http://www.seisolarpros.com

 

 

 

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:07 PM Bryan Norkunas  wrote:

Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in the past – 

but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors, it has always been 
14AWG for some reason.

 

And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in the last 10 years 
we have never had the request to manufacture anything smaller than 12AWG when 
it came to PV Connectors.

 

Bryan Norkunas

br...@pv-cables.com

 

Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140

PV-Cables Inc.

1155 Redway Drive

PO Box 2562

Redway, CA 95560

(707) 923-3000 office

www.pv-cables.com <http://www.pv-cables.com/> 

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Bryan Norkunas
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mDescription: Description: 
cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470ismatch

 

Ray,

 

Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 connectors, then 
Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors.

 

The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues and we assembled 
a lot of adapters for end users and installers.  

 

Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the Amphenol UTX/H4 to MC4 
connections failing.  (I attached the Compatibility letter that Solarworld was 
providing their customers, as well as the Amphenol Compatibility documents )  

 

Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the plastic housings to 
determine the terminal overlap of cross mated connectors.

Here are my notes from back then:

The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305”

The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265”

A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully seating MC4 female 
to the H4 male.  It takes some force to get them to fit completely and a 
nightmare to disconnect if needed.

These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity environments.  The 
picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated.

cid:image003.jpg@01D18A5E.48835320

 

 

Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their modules over the 
years.  

 

Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount of experience 
with them.  Jinko still does not offer a crimping tool for their connectors, 
that I know of and still only UL for 20A.  We do little work with these 
connectors, so my input here might be outdated.

 

Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of ours doing good work 
on obtaining the connector/module info from module manufactures, prior to 
placing their blanket orders.  In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically 
supplying them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, adapters, etc.  
  And finally the end customer is knowing what connectors on the modules they 
are purchasing, with the availability of getting the correct connectors/homerun 
cables needed to complete the install.

 

 

Bryan Norkunas

br...@pv-cables.com

 

Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140

PV-Cables Inc.

1155 Redway Drive

PO Box 2562

Redway, CA 95560

(707) 923-3000 office

www.pv-cables.com <http://www.pv-cables.com/> 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Ray
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

 

I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to see if 
we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol H4 connects 
since the advent of locking solar connectors.  We had assumed they were 
compatible back then.

Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't even 
notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like H4, while SW 270s and back to the 
long, skinny SW 165s are MC 4, but its not that clear, as I found a spec sheet 
for an SW 260 with an H4.  

Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure.

Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC 4 compatible 
(whatever that means) while their 72 cell m

Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Brian Mehalic]

You say you've seen many of these tests in the past; do you specifically
mean the intermatability test?

Thanks for the info! (And you also really helped me out identifying some
connectors on a problem-job a couple months back...thanks again!).

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com



On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:07 PM Bryan Norkunas  wrote:

> Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in the past –
>
> but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors, it has always
> been 14AWG for some reason.
>
>
>
> And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in the last 10
> years we have never had the request to manufacture anything smaller than
> 12AWG when it came to PV Connectors.
>
>
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> br...@pv-cables.com
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140]
>
> *PV-Cables Inc.*
>
> 1155 Redway Drive
>
> PO Box 2562
>
> Redway, CA 95560
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector m[image: Description: Description:
> cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470]ismatch
>
>
>
> Ray,
>
>
>
> Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 connectors,
> then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors.
>
>
>
> The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues and we
> assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers.
>
>
>
> Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the Amphenol UTX/H4 to
> MC4 connections failing.  (I attached the Compatibility letter that
> Solarworld was providing their customers, as well as the Amphenol
> Compatibility documents )
>
>
>
> Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the plastic housings
> to determine the terminal overlap of cross mated connectors.
>
> Here are my notes from back then:
>
> The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305”
>
> The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265”
>
> A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully seating MC4
> female to the H4 male.  It takes some force to get them to fit completely
> and a nightmare to disconnect if needed.
>
> These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity environments.  The
> picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated.
>
> [image: cid:image003.jpg@01D18A5E.48835320]
>
>
>
>
>
> Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their modules over the
> years.
>
>
>
> Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount of
> experience with them.  Jinko still does not offer a crimping tool for their
> connectors, that I know of and still only UL for 20A.  We do little work
> with these connectors, so my input here might be outdated.
>
>
>
> Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of ours doing good
> work on obtaining the connector/module info from module manufactures, prior
> to placing their blanket orders.  In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically
> supplying them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, adapters,
> etc.And finally the end customer is knowing what connectors on the
> modules they are purchasing, with the availability of getting the correct
> connectors/homerun cables needed to complete the install.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> br...@pv-cables.com
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140]
>
> *PV-Cables Inc.*
>
> 1155 Redway Drive
>
> PO Box 2562
>
> Redway, CA 95560
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Ray
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch
>
>
>
> I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to
> see if we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol H4
> connects since the advent of locking solar connectors.  We had assumed they
> were compatible back then.
>
> Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't
> even notice. S

Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Bryan Norkunas]

Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in the past – 

but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors, it has always been 
14AWG for some reason.

 

And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in the last 10 years 
we have never had the request to manufacture anything smaller than 12AWG when 
it came to PV Connectors.

 

Bryan Norkunas

br...@pv-cables.com

 

Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140

PV-Cables Inc.

1155 Redway Drive

PO Box 2562

Redway, CA 95560

(707) 923-3000 office

www.pv-cables.com <http://www.pv-cables.com/> 

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Bryan Norkunas
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mDescription: Description: 
cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470ismatch

 

Ray,

 

Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 connectors, then 
Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors.

 

The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues and we assembled 
a lot of adapters for end users and installers.  

 

Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the Amphenol UTX/H4 to MC4 
connections failing.  (I attached the Compatibility letter that Solarworld was 
providing their customers, as well as the Amphenol Compatibility documents )  

 

Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the plastic housings to 
determine the terminal overlap of cross mated connectors.

Here are my notes from back then:

The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305”

The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265”

A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully seating MC4 female 
to the H4 male.  It takes some force to get them to fit completely and a 
nightmare to disconnect if needed.

These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity environments.  The 
picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated.

cid:image003.jpg@01D18A5E.48835320

 

 

Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their modules over the 
years.  

 

Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount of experience 
with them.  Jinko still does not offer a crimping tool for their connectors, 
that I know of and still only UL for 20A.  We do little work with these 
connectors, so my input here might be outdated.

 

Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of ours doing good work 
on obtaining the connector/module info from module manufactures, prior to 
placing their blanket orders.  In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically 
supplying them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, adapters, etc.  
  And finally the end customer is knowing what connectors on the modules they 
are purchasing, with the availability of getting the correct connectors/homerun 
cables needed to complete the install.

 

 

Bryan Norkunas

br...@pv-cables.com

 

Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140

PV-Cables Inc.

1155 Redway Drive

PO Box 2562

Redway, CA 95560

(707) 923-3000 office

www.pv-cables.com <http://www.pv-cables.com/> 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Ray
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

 

I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to see if 
we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol H4 connects 
since the advent of locking solar connectors.  We had assumed they were 
compatible back then.

Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't even 
notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like H4, while SW 270s and back to the 
long, skinny SW 165s are MC 4, but its not that clear, as I found a spec sheet 
for an SW 260 with an H4.  

Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure.

Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC 4 compatible 
(whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods apparently use the H4/ UTX  

Conclusion: Total confusion in the field.

Jinko?  They don't even list the connector type on any of the spec sheets I 
have for the past few years.

Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know beforehand what connector 
to use in the field.

Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the solar industry; 
a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an organization like NEMA stepped in 
to standardize the connectors like all AC connectors have been, going back for 
over a century?  

I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted the MC 4/ H4 
locking type connectors that they were standardized and compatible.   I can 
only hope that my systems running at relatively low voltage (<150 vdc) will not 
have issues.   

 

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Jus

Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Ray]

I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to 
see if we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol 
H4 connects since the advent of locking solar connectors.  We had 
assumed they were compatible back then.


Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't 
even notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like H4, while SW 270s and 
back to the long, skinny SW 165s are MC 4, but its not that clear, as I 
found a spec sheet for an SW 260 with an H4.


_Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure._

Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC 4 
compatible (whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods apparently use 
the H4/ UTX


_Conclusion: Total confusion in the field._

Jinko?  They don't even list the connector type on any of the spec 
sheets I have for the past few years.


_Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know beforehand what 
connector to use in the field._


Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the solar 
industry; a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an organization like 
NEMA stepped in to standardize the connectors like all AC connectors 
have been, going back for over a century?


I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted the MC 4/ 
H4 locking type connectors that they were standardized and compatible.   
I can only hope that my systems running at relatively low voltage (<150 
vdc) will not have issues.



Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found 
that most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be 
when iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less 
likely, this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough 
and under lower power it would arc instead of heating up and 
expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change due to the 
plastic.
Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module 
after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest 
making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact 
pressures. This is where you may find your problem components. It 
appears that early am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed 
the current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower 
volts.
This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing 
results were very close.
The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were 
ABB and Fronius

Sorry for the long note
Jerry

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence > wrote:


Everyone,

Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that
couldn't be traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers. 
I've seen some connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on
the pin itself and nowhere else.  The crimps and the housing were
fine.  I've postulated it had to do with slightly different metals
expanding/contracting at different rates.  I've made it a very
hard rule at my company to never mix manufacturers of connectors. 
When we order modules, we specifically have the PO call out the
manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 compatible"). 
Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but sometimes we
end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are
some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't
use them on #10 homeruns).  It's drastically cut down on the
number of melted connectors.  We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW
projects over a year with this hard requirement versus 100+ we had
on a 1MW rooftop project that mixed multiple manufacturers.

Steven Lawrence
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[August Goers]

Hi Bryan and Jason -

Thanks for the info on the module warranty lead and connector issue. I was
still under the impression that cutting module leads *could* lead to
voiding the manufacturer's warranty so we've avoided it.

All that said, we haven't bumped into a clear cut case (at least for a long
time) where a manufacturer-supplied connector was clearly faulty. I can't
speak to other's experiences and certainly don't know what's up with
Tesla's situation. Jason's comments about using proper techniques and tools
to field assemble connectors are solid. It seems like a total slam dunk to
make connectors up, but the bottom line is that installers can make
mistakes (sometimes incomprehensible) when assembling connectors. These
poorly assembled connectors can connect just well enough to run the system
and test out okay, but then arc intermittently until complete connection
failure occurs. I've seen this occur with arc fault detection enabled in
the inverter which makes me question how effective arc fault detection
really is.

We work hard to keep training and QC up to assure that our connectors are
made up properly. We're using way fewer MC4 connectors these days because
we've primarily switched to AC modules for our residential installations.
For commercial installations, we do a refresher training prior to starting
the rooftop wiring.

August
Luminalt



On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 7:26 AM Jason Fisher (STC) 
wrote:

> Hi August and all,
>
> In addition to modules with UL6703 mating connectors, UL1703 has always
> allowed modules to be listed with only leads (no connectors attached), or
> with no leads at all (old school J-box). Originally leads with connectors
> were added to modules in the field, connected to J-boxes with bolted
> terminals. Factory installed leads and connectors were added by module
> manufacturers for convenience, not because of any Code or UL requirement.
> There is no defensible reason for a module manufacturer to void their
> warranty if a connector is cut off and replaced by an appropriate connector
> or splice. The word appropriate is key here since there are some modules
> that use proprietary connectors and even cables (ie Ac modules).
>
> This issue is particularly important for any connector that has any
> damage. How could a module manufacturer suggest that a qualified person not
> be allowed to replace a damaged part like this? Would they replace the
> entire module for you? Assuming not, would they say the module should be
> tossed just because of this? There is no logic in the belief that replacing
> a connector should violate any warranty or listing, provided the person
> performing the work is qualified and they are using appropriate (typ.
> listed) parts. In fact I believe this should be part of a module’s normal
> maintenance procedures that should be documented in the module’s manual. If
> it was, that would remove any concerns over impacting the UL listing.
> Without this procedure being documented in the module manual, you need to
> get approval from the manufacturer, which some have provided in my
> experience. I believe if more folks kept asking this would become easier.
>
> All that said please buy good quality connectors and train your people to
> install them correctly, with the right (and calibrated) tools. You need
> good quality controls when making any electrical connection but our mating
> (“plug and play”) PV connectors are particularly important since they
> operate under such demanding conditions of duty cycle and environmental
> conditions. Also never mix manufacturers or types unless this combination
> is called out in the NRTL listing (“intermatability”).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jason Fisher
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Bryan Norkunas 
> *Sent:* Monday, September 9, 2019 11:46 AM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch
>
>
> August,
>
>
>
> We have had numerous customers successfully reach out and been given
> revised warranties from module manufactures, when connectors which were on
> the module leads could not be procured.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> br...@pv-cables.com
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140]
>
> *PV-Cables Inc.*
>
> 1155 Redway Drive
>
> PO Box 2562
>
> Redway, CA 95560
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com
>
>
>
>  [image: Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470] Please
> print only if necessary.
>
>
>
> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the
> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged
> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or 

Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Ray]

Has anyone noticed whether the location in the string or the array 
voltage makes a difference in the failures?  Is this more an issue at 
higher array voltages (>600 v) and at points in the array that the 
voltage would be highest?  We primarily do low voltage (<200 v)  off 
grid systems, and have not seen any failures.  But I'm wondering if we 
need to go back and start looking for issues, as I can't promise that 
every module connector matched the connectors we used, especially if as 
has been reported, some manus used different connectors for neg and pos.


To further the problems, I've personally replaced what looked to be 
counterfeit connectors on cheap 12 v modules. The connecting metal was 
obviously inferior: very malleable and made such a poor connection that 
it created an open circuit.  Luckily this was at 20 v, and no melt down 
occurred. Also Luckily, I didn't provide the module.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found 
that most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be 
when iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less 
likely, this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough 
and under lower power it would arc instead of heating up and 
expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change due to the 
plastic.
Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module 
after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest 
making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact 
pressures. This is where you may find your problem components. It 
appears that early am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed 
the current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower 
volts.
This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing 
results were very close.
The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were 
ABB and Fronius

Sorry for the long note
Jerry

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence > wrote:


Everyone,

Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that
couldn't be traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers. 
I've seen some connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on
the pin itself and nowhere else.  The crimps and the housing were
fine.  I've postulated it had to do with slightly different metals
expanding/contracting at different rates.  I've made it a very
hard rule at my company to never mix manufacturers of connectors. 
When we order modules, we specifically have the PO call out the
manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 compatible"). 
Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but sometimes we
end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are
some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't
use them on #10 homeruns).  It's drastically cut down on the
number of melted connectors.  We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW
projects over a year with this hard requirement versus 100+ we had
on a 1MW rooftop project that mixed multiple manufacturers.

Steven Lawrence
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Jason Fisher (STC)]

Hi August and all,

In addition to modules with UL6703 mating connectors, UL1703 has always allowed 
modules to be listed with only leads (no connectors attached), or with no leads 
at all (old school J-box). Originally leads with connectors were added to 
modules in the field, connected to J-boxes with bolted terminals. Factory 
installed leads and connectors were added by module manufacturers for 
convenience, not because of any Code or UL requirement. There is no defensible 
reason for a module manufacturer to void their warranty if a connector is cut 
off and replaced by an appropriate connector or splice. The word appropriate is 
key here since there are some modules that use proprietary connectors and even 
cables (ie Ac modules).

This issue is particularly important for any connector that has any damage. How 
could a module manufacturer suggest that a qualified person not be allowed to 
replace a damaged part like this? Would they replace the entire module for you? 
Assuming not, would they say the module should be tossed just because of this? 
There is no logic in the belief that replacing a connector should violate any 
warranty or listing, provided the person performing the work is qualified and 
they are using appropriate (typ. listed) parts. In fact I believe this should 
be part of a module’s normal maintenance procedures that should be documented 
in the module’s manual. If it was, that would remove any concerns over 
impacting the UL listing. Without this procedure being documented in the module 
manual, you need to get approval from the manufacturer, which some have 
provided in my experience. I believe if more folks kept asking this would 
become easier.

All that said please buy good quality connectors and train your people to 
install them correctly, with the right (and calibrated) tools. You need good 
quality controls when making any electrical connection but our mating (“plug 
and play”) PV connectors are particularly important since they operate under 
such demanding conditions of duty cycle and environmental conditions. Also 
never mix manufacturers or types unless this combination is called out in the 
NRTL listing (“intermatability”).

Cheers,

Jason Fisher


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Bryan Norkunas 
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 11:46 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

August,

We have had numerous customers successfully reach out and been given revised 
warranties from module manufactures, when connectors which were on the module 
leads could not be procured.

Cheers,

Bryan Norkunas
br...@pv-cables.com<mailto:br...@pv-cables.com>

[Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140]
PV-Cables Inc.
1155 Redway Drive
PO Box 2562
Redway, CA 95560
(707) 923-3000 office
www.pv-cables.com<http://www.pv-cables.com/>

 [Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470]  Please print 
only if necessary.

NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the 
intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by 
replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message.



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of August Goers
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2019 6:34 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

Jason - I'm curious about your statement on cutting off module connectors. Can 
you elaborate?

Best,

August
Luminalt

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jason Fisher (STC) 
mailto:stc.ja...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s original 
connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory shipped with one 
H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That would be bizarre.

Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL 6703 
term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, how can 
installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two different 
manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect “mismatched” 
connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or different models 
of mating connectors if at least one of the companies produces proof of 
evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that this is rare at this 
point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”).

This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm and 
don’t budge on this one.

Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? We 
need to correct that if so.

Jason Fisher

From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 on behalf of Jerry Shafer 
mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>&g

Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Bryan Norkunas]

August, 

 

We have had numerous customers successfully reach out and been given revised 
warranties from module manufactures, when connectors which were on the module 
leads could not be procured.

 

Cheers, 

 

Bryan Norkunas

br...@pv-cables.com

 

Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140

PV-Cables Inc.

1155 Redway Drive

PO Box 2562

Redway, CA 95560

(707) 923-3000 office

www.pv-cables.com <http://www.pv-cables.com/> 

 

 Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470 Please print only 
if necessary.

 

NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the 
intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by 
replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message.

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of August Goers
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2019 6:34 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

 

Jason - I'm curious about your statement on cutting off module connectors. Can 
you elaborate?

 

Best,

 

August

Luminalt

 

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jason Fisher (STC)  wrote:

Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s original 
connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory shipped with one 
H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That would be bizarre. 

 

Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL 6703 
term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, how can 
installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two different 
manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect “mismatched” 
connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or different models 
of mating connectors if at least one of the companies produces proof of 
evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that this is rare at this 
point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”). 

 

This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm and 
don’t budge on this one. 

 

Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? We 
need to correct that if so. 

 

Jason Fisher

  _  

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Jerry Shafer 
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch 

 

Brian 

Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real 
world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers 
an out regarding failures and responsibility 

Jerry

 

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic  wrote:

I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL 
standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - 
now requiring intermatability. 

Brian


On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:

Wrenches 

Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have 
had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to.

Jerry

 

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:

Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a 
negative factory MC4 lead? 

 

I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched.  


 

Brian Mehalic 
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59

National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member

(520) 204-6639

 

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

 

SEI Professional Services

 <http://www.seisolarpros.com> http://www.seisolarpros.com

 

 

 

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg  wrote:

I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to 
zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed 
in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. 
Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure 
enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.  
Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making 
the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this 
system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm 
convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. 
Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[August Goers]

Jason - I'm curious about your statement on cutting off module connectors.
Can you elaborate?

Best,

August
Luminalt


On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jason Fisher (STC) 
wrote:

> Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s
> original connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory
> shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That
> would be bizarre.
>
> Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL
> 6703 term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question,
> how can installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two
> different manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect
> “mismatched” connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or
> different models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies
> produces proof of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that
> this is rare at this point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”).
>
> This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm
> and don’t budge on this one.
>
> Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors?
> We need to correct that if so.
>
> Jason Fisher
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Jerry Shafer 
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch
>
> Brian
> Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real
> world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter
> manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility
> Jerry
>
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic  wrote:
>
>> I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code
>> requirements, UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see
>> 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Wrenches
>> Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l
>> have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:
>>
>>> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead
>>> and a negative factory MC4 lead?
>>>
>>> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched.
>>>
>>> Brian Mehalic
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
>>> (520) 204-6639
>>>
>>> Solar Energy International
>>> http://www.solarenergy.org
>>>
>>> SEI Professional Services
>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to
>>>> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed
>>>> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this.
>>>> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure
>>>> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.
>>>> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making
>>>> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this
>>>> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm
>>>> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem.
>>>> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4
>>>> connectors?
>>>>
>>>> Kent Osterberg
>>>> Blue Mountain Solar
>>>> ___
>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>
>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>>
>>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>> List

Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[jay]

UL 6703 was introduced in 2014

And in regards to mating connectors, 

UL 6703. 1.5 This standard covers PV connectors whose dimensions are not 
defined in any national or international technical standard. Connectors are 
identified and tested with compatible mating part (or parts if multiple exist) 
and are to be of the same brand, unless multiple product manufacturers are 
submitting under the same evaluation for the purpose of proving intermatability.

Maybe I’m not reading this correctly,  I read it that both connector OEMs have 
to submit to have it meet the UL standard.

jay




> On Sep 7, 2019, at 5:54 AM, Jason Fisher (STC)  wrote:
> 
> Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s 
> original connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory 
> shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That would 
> be bizarre. 
> 
> Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL 6703 
> term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, how can 
> installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two different 
> manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect “mismatched” 
> connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or different 
> models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies produces proof 
> of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that this is rare at 
> this point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”). 
> 
> This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm and 
> don’t budge on this one. 
> 
> Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? We 
> need to correct that if so. 
> 
> Jason Fisher
> From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
> Jerry Shafer 
> Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch
>  
> Brian
> Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real 
> world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers 
> an out regarding failures and responsibility 
> Jerry
> 
> On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic  <mailto:br...@solarenergy.org>> wrote:
> I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL 
> standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - 
> now requiring intermatability. 
> 
> Brian
> 
> On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer  <mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Wrenches
>> Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have 
>> had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to.
>> Jerry
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic > <mailto:br...@solarenergy.org>> wrote:
>> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and 
>> a negative factory MC4 lead?
>> 
>> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched.  
>> 
>> Brian Mehalic 
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
>> (520) 204-6639
>> 
>> Solar Energy International
>> http://www.solarenergy.org <http://www.solarenergy.org/>
>> 
>> SEI Professional Services
>> http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg > <mailto:k...@coveoregon.com>> wrote:
>> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to 
>> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed 
>> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. 
>> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure 
>> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.  
>> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making 
>> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this 
>> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm 
>> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. 
>> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?
>> 
>> Kent Osterberg
>> Blue Mountain Solar
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Jason Fisher (STC)]

Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s original 
connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory shipped with one 
H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That would be bizarre.

Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL 6703 
term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, how can 
installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two different 
manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect “mismatched” 
connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or different models 
of mating connectors if at least one of the companies produces proof of 
evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that this is rare at this 
point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”).

This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm and 
don’t budge on this one.

Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? We 
need to correct that if so.

Jason Fisher

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Jerry Shafer 
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

Brian
Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real 
world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers 
an out regarding failures and responsibility
Jerry

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic 
mailto:br...@solarenergy.org>> wrote:
I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL 
standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - 
now requiring intermatability.

Brian

On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer 
mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wrenches
Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have 
had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to.
Jerry

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic 
mailto:br...@solarenergy.org>> wrote:
Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a 
negative factory MC4 lead?

I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com



On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg 
mailto:k...@coveoregon.com>> wrote:
I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to
zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed
in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this.
Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure
enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.
Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making
the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this
system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm
convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem.
Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar
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[RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Jay]

Hi Jerry

I’m not sure I understand. 
Are you saying that the white paper overrules ( if that’s the correct way to 
say it) the UL and OEM guidelines?

Jay


> On Sep 5, 2019, at 8:25 AM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
> 
> Brian
> Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real 
> world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers 
> an out regarding failures and responsibility 
> Jerry
> 
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic  wrote:
>> I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, 
>> UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 
>> 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. 
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wrenches
>>> Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l 
>>> have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to.
>>> Jerry
>>> 
 On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:
 Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead 
 and a negative factory MC4 lead?
 
 I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched.  
 
 Brian Mehalic 
 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
 (520) 204-6639
 
 Solar Energy International
 http://www.solarenergy.org
 
 SEI Professional Services
 http://www.seisolarpros.com
 
 
 
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg  wrote:
> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to 
> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed 
> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. 
> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure 
> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.  
> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making 
> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this 
> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm 
> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. 
> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?
> 
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar
> ___
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> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Jerry Shafer]

Brian
Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real
world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter
manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility
Jerry

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic  wrote:

> I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements,
> UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC®
> 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability.
>
> Brian
>
> On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
>
> Wrenches
> Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l
> have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to.
> Jerry
>
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:
>
>> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead
>> and a negative factory MC4 lead?
>>
>> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched.
>>
>> Brian Mehalic
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
>> (520) 204-6639
>>
>> Solar Energy International
>> http://www.solarenergy.org
>>
>> SEI Professional Services
>> http://www.seisolarpros.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to
>>> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed
>>> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this.
>>> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure
>>> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.
>>> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making
>>> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this
>>> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm
>>> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem.
>>> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?
>>>
>>> Kent Osterberg
>>> Blue Mountain Solar
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Jerry Shafer]

Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found that
most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be when
iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less likely,
this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough and under
lower power it would arc instead of heating up and expanding. I used a IR
Camera but could see little change due to the plastic.
Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module after
several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest making your
own connector pull out tool to check the contact pressures. This is where
you may find your problem components. It appears that early am testing had
lower volts and the inverter pushed the current up and causes the loose
connector to fail due to the lower volts.
This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing results
were very close.
The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were ABB
and Fronius
Sorry for the long note
Jerry

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence 
wrote:

> Everyone,
>
> Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that couldn't be
> traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers.  I've seen some
> connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself and
> nowhere else.  The crimps and the housing were fine.  I've postulated it
> had to do with slightly different metals expanding/contracting at different
> rates.  I've made it a very hard rule at my company to never mix
> manufacturers of connectors.  When we order modules, we specifically have
> the PO call out the manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4
> compatible").  Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but
> sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are
> some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire.  Can't use them
> on #10 homeruns).  It's drastically cut down on the number of melted
> connectors.  We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with
> this hard requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop project that
> mixed multiple manufacturers.
>
> Steven Lawrence
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Brian Mehalic]

I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL 
standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - 
now requiring intermatability. 

Brian

> On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches
> Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have 
> had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to.
> Jerry
> 
>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:
>> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and 
>> a negative factory MC4 lead?
>> 
>> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched.  
>> 
>> Brian Mehalic 
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
>> (520) 204-6639
>> 
>> Solar Energy International
>> http://www.solarenergy.org
>> 
>> SEI Professional Services
>> http://www.seisolarpros.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg  wrote:
>>> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to 
>>> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed 
>>> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. 
>>> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure 
>>> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.  
>>> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making 
>>> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this 
>>> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm 
>>> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. 
>>> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?
>>> 
>>> Kent Osterberg
>>> Blue Mountain Solar
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>> 
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> 
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Steven Lawrence]

Everyone,

Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that couldn't be
traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers.  I've seen some
connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself and
nowhere else.  The crimps and the housing were fine.  I've postulated it
had to do with slightly different metals expanding/contracting at different
rates.  I've made it a very hard rule at my company to never mix
manufacturers of connectors.  When we order modules, we specifically have
the PO call out the manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4
compatible").  Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but
sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are
some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire.  Can't use them
on #10 homeruns).  It's drastically cut down on the number of melted
connectors.  We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with
this hard requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop project that
mixed multiple manufacturers.

Steven Lawrence
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l
have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to.
Jerry

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:

> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead
> and a negative factory MC4 lead?
>
> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched.
>
> Brian Mehalic
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
> (520) 204-6639
>
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org
>
> SEI Professional Services
> http://www.seisolarpros.com
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg  wrote:
>
>> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to
>> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed
>> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this.
>> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure
>> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.
>> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making
>> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this
>> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm
>> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem.
>> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?
>>
>> Kent Osterberg
>> Blue Mountain Solar
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Brian Mehalic]

Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and
a negative factory MC4 lead?

I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
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On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg  wrote:

> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to
> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed
> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this.
> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure
> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.
> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making
> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this
> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm
> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem.
> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar
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[RE-wrenches] connector mismatch

[Kent Osterberg]

I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to 
zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed 
in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. 
Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure 
enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.  
Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making 
the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this 
system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm 
convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. 
Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors?


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar
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