Re: [Repoze-dev] BFG and GAE
Hey On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chris McDonough wrote: On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 08:30 -0400, Tres Seaver wrote: To ask for another $AU .25: can somebody point to the currently-best docs on doing BFG on GAE? There are a number of somewhat-contractictory writeups out in the wild, which leads to some confusion when folks want to try it out: I talked to a user at the D.C. ZPUG the other night who was intereested in evaluating it, but couldn't figure out what was supposed to work, and how. AFAIK, this is 100% correct: http://docs.repoze.org/bfg/1.2/tutorials/gae/index.html#appengine-tutorial That procedure might work, but it relies on appengine-monkey, which was a big fat warning plastered across its homepage[1]: It may work 100% correct on the first time only though. While playing with it, I tried to create another bfg on gae project and for my surprise it didn't work because appengine-monkey patched my system's python distutils putting a hardcoded value for [install] in my distutils.cfg (which happens to be installed in my $HOME/bin). With that said, I believe appengine-monkey is not the best way to get BFG on GAE and it would be better if people that have a sane process of achieving this tried to document and hopefully advertise that approach. Cheers, -Fernando ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev
Re: [Repoze-dev] BFG and GAE
On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 11:08 -0300, Fernando Correa Neto wrote: It may work 100% correct on the first time only though. While playing with it, I tried to create another bfg on gae project and for my surprise it didn't work because appengine-monkey patched my system's python distutils putting a hardcoded value for [install] in my distutils.cfg (which happens to be installed in my $HOME/bin). With that said, I believe appengine-monkey is not the best way to get BFG on GAE and it would be better if people that have a sane process of achieving this tried to document and hopefully advertise that approach. No disagreement here. When I say it's the best way, I mean it's a way that is documented and that is known to work. If there's another better way that is also documented and works, we should use that. Would you be willing to take on the task of figuring out what that is and documenting it ala the existing tutorial. - C ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev
Re: [Repoze-dev] BFG and GAE
On 2010-05-05, Charlie Clark charlie.cl...@clark-consulting.eu wrote: Am 05.05.2010, 17:10 Uhr, schrieb Alex Clark acl...@aclark.net: However I'll mention I see guys like philikon (http://i-luuv.appspot.com) and davisagli (http://buildthreat.appspot.com/) building cool apps on GAE and I can't help but wonder what it would be like if the BFG/GAE story was complete and in place. Please forgive the ignorance but is actually cool about those two sites? Heh, just that you can knock together scalable toy apps for fun. In the case of philikon's http://i-luuv.appspot.com/ he used WebOb and some HTML5 IIRC, and davisagli appears to have used straight Python: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/buildout.threatlevel Charlie -- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author of Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/plone-site-admin ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev
[Repoze-dev] BFG and GAE
Hi all, I am just going to blurt this out because I am thinking about it. At last night's Python Meetup Tres mentioned something about their being various ways to use BFG on GAE… which makes me wonder: what would it take to get GAE support from the top down? I'm sure I already know the answer (well, I'll guess anyway): there is no immediate Agendaless (or any other big BFG shop) customer need for it, so it's not going to happen until there is. Fair enough (we all know/understand how that works). Which brings me to an actual question: is marketing BFG on GAE even desirable by the community? In other words, is making it work on a platform that has wide-spread adoption like GAE (I assume it has widespread adoption) something folks are interested in as a way to spread the word and inject new developers/users into the project? Or am I just blinded by shiny toys too much. I suspect the latter ;-) However I'll mention I see guys like philikon (http://i-luuv.appspot.com) and davisagli (http://buildthreat.appspot.com/) building cool apps on GAE and I can't help but wonder what it would be like if the BFG/GAE story was complete and in place. 2cents, Thanks for reading, Alex -- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author of Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/plone-site-admin ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev
Re: [Repoze-dev] BFG and GAE
On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 15:10 +, Alex Clark wrote: Hi all, I am just going to blurt this out because I am thinking about it. At last night's Python Meetup Tres mentioned something about their being various ways to use BFG on GAE… which makes me wonder: what would it take to get GAE support from the top down? I assume by top down, you mean the principals of BFG consider it a preferred deployment platform. I'm sure I already know the answer (well, I'll guess anyway): there is no immediate Agendaless (or any other big BFG shop) customer need for it, so it's not going to happen until there is. Fair enough (we all know/understand how that works). Which brings me to an actual question: is marketing BFG on GAE even desirable by the community? In other words, is making it work on a platform that has wide-spread adoption like GAE (I assume it has widespread adoption) something folks are interested in as a way to spread the word and inject new developers/users into the project? Or am I just blinded by shiny toys too much. I suspect the latter ;-) However I'll mention I see guys like philikon (http://i-luuv.appspot.com) and davisagli (http://buildthreat.appspot.com/) building cool apps on GAE and I can't help but wonder what it would be like if the BFG/GAE story was complete and in place. I consider it useful for BFG to run on the widest variety of platforms possible. It should run within reason on an arbitrary system independent of Python version (2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 2.7.. although not 3.X yet), Python implementation (CPython/GAE/Jython... and untested but hopefully IronPython), and operating system (UNIX/Windows/GAE). This is both a practical and a marketing issue. On the practical side, being able to use the tool in many contexts is useful (e.g. alongside Plone 3 in a Python 2.4 deployment, or on GAE for a simple app). On the marketing side, we have spikes in interest and we gain new users whenever we put BFG into one of these contexts (e.g. a blog entry BFG on Jython, or BFG on GAE etc). So to the extent that it helps market BFG, I'm all for better GAE support, and I would *love* to see people blog about putting BFG apps on GAE and other alternate platforms. There's only a single caveat: adding support for one platform cannot detract from the portability of BFG onto other platforms. Other than that, I'd love to see add-ons for BigTable bindings, authentication, etc that targeted GAE specifically, as well as IronPython, Jython, etc. Wrt GAE specifically, from a personal perspective, I like the idea of its easy deployment, but the kinds of work Agendaless does doesn't really lend itself to deployment on GAE due to limitations of the platform. So business-wise it will probably not become a preferred deployment platform for *Agendaless*. As a result, it will really need to be someone else who takes up the mantle of making BFG better on GAE. That said, this isn't an I don't care, this is an I care, but someone else is going to have to care more. - C ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev
Re: [Repoze-dev] BFG and GAE
On 2010-05-05, Chris McDonough chr...@plope.com wrote: On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 15:10 +, Alex Clark wrote: Hi all, I am just going to blurt this out because I am thinking about it. At last night's Python Meetup Tres mentioned something about their being various ways to use BFG on GAE… which makes me wonder: what would it take to get GAE support from the top down? I assume by top down, you mean the principals of BFG consider it a preferred deployment platform. Right, really I just meant implemented by the core devs vs. contributed but close enough. I hadn't even thought about whether BFG would have to compromise its principals to run on GAE… and I assume that it wouldn't. I'm sure I already know the answer (well, I'll guess anyway): there is no immediate Agendaless (or any other big BFG shop) customer need for it, so it's not going to happen until there is. Fair enough (we all know/understand how that works). Which brings me to an actual question: is marketing BFG on GAE even desirable by the community? In other words, is making it work on a platform that has wide-spread adoption like GAE (I assume it has widespread adoption) something folks are interested in as a way to spread the word and inject new developers/users into the project? Or am I just blinded by shiny toys too much. I suspect the latter ;-) However I'll mention I see guys like philikon (http://i-luuv.appspot.com) and davisagli (http://buildthreat.appspot.com/) building cool apps on GAE and I can't help but wonder what it would be like if the BFG/GAE story was complete and in place. I consider it useful for BFG to run on the widest variety of platforms possible. It should run within reason on an arbitrary system independent of Python version (2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 2.7.. although not 3.X yet), Python implementation (CPython/GAE/Jython... and untested but hopefully IronPython), and operating system (UNIX/Windows/GAE). This is both a practical and a marketing issue. On the practical side, being able to use the tool in many contexts is useful (e.g. alongside Plone 3 in a Python 2.4 deployment, or on GAE for a simple app). On the marketing side, we have spikes in interest and we gain new users whenever we put BFG into one of these contexts (e.g. a blog entry BFG on Jython, or BFG on GAE etc). So to the extent that it helps market BFG, I'm all for better GAE support, and I would *love* to see people blog about putting BFG apps on GAE and other alternate platforms. There's only a single caveat: adding support for one platform cannot detract from the portability of BFG onto other platforms. Other than that, I'd love to see add-ons for BigTable bindings, authentication, etc that targeted GAE specifically, as well as IronPython, Jython, etc. Wrt GAE specifically, from a personal perspective, I like the idea of its easy deployment, but the kinds of work Agendaless does doesn't really lend itself to deployment on GAE due to limitations of the platform. So business-wise it will probably not become a preferred deployment platform for *Agendaless*. As a result, it will really need to be someone else who takes up the mantle of making BFG better on GAE. That said, this isn't an I don't care, this is an I care, but someone else is going to have to care more. Right, this all makes sense, thanks. As far as limitations of the platform goes, is this a cloud computing vs. traditional model issue? Or is it a GAE-specific thing. I suspect the latter because it seems any framework that runs on their (GAE's) platform has to bend itself to fit. Whereas something like Ian's Silver Lining (which also excites me) might make a better cloud deployment story for BFG. Alex - C ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev -- Alex Clark · http://aclark.net Author of Plone 3.3 Site Administration · http://aclark.net/plone-site-admin ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev
Re: [Repoze-dev] BFG and GAE
Am 05.05.2010, 17:10 Uhr, schrieb Alex Clark acl...@aclark.net: However I'll mention I see guys like philikon (http://i-luuv.appspot.com) and davisagli (http://buildthreat.appspot.com/) building cool apps on GAE and I can't help but wonder what it would be like if the BFG/GAE story was complete and in place. Please forgive the ignorance but is actually cool about those two sites? Charlie -- Charlie Clark Managing Director Clark Consulting Research German Office Helmholtzstr. 20 Düsseldorf D- 40215 Tel: +49-211-600-3657 Mobile: +49-178-782-6226 ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev
Re: [Repoze-dev] BFG and GAE
Hi All We (KT Studio), have a fairly significant site based on BFG (pre 1.1) running on app engine very successfully. (www.polytechnic.wa.edu.au). (We have other bfg based app engine apps in the pipeline). (Also about to go live with a bobo, repoze.what and zope.component/zope.interface, formish based app as an alternate stack) Much of what Chris has said is spot on the mark, (though there are emerging tools like TyphoonAE which provide an alternate deployment to google for the app engine api). In fact appengine should really be thought of as an API and collection of services that you build your application too. We see a huge advantage in app engine if you can deal with the restrictions of the platform because it does remove a major area of support requirements (namely the OS, scaling, failover and the app stack (web server, rdbms etc)). The main things I find I have to do when building is removing things we don't use, (paste scripts don't help much, therefor no ini files etc.., ) , Which really means just hooking bfg up with the wsgi handler. I personally think bfg offers some big advantages over Django on appengine, though you probably have to do a little more work in some areas, but there seems to be a bit of an impedance mis-match between Django its ORM and App Engine. Where as bfg just gets out of the way, but does what it does well. Also not tying forms directly to the model is a good thing. I really have not found myself trying to work around things in appengine. (Especially now we can do configuration directly in python). Just my 2c ;-) T On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Charlie Clark charlie.cl...@clark-consulting.eu wrote: Am 05.05.2010, 17:10 Uhr, schrieb Alex Clark acl...@aclark.net: However I'll mention I see guys like philikon (http://i-luuv.appspot.com) and davisagli (http://buildthreat.appspot.com/) building cool apps on GAE and I can't help but wonder what it would be like if the BFG/GAE story was complete and in place. Please forgive the ignorance but is actually cool about those two sites? Charlie -- Charlie Clark Managing Director Clark Consulting Research German Office Helmholtzstr. 20 Düsseldorf D- 40215 Tel: +49-211-600-3657 Mobile: +49-178-782-6226 ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev ___ Repoze-dev mailing list Repoze-dev@lists.repoze.org http://lists.repoze.org/listinfo/repoze-dev
