Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Ben Liberman]

At 14:31 -0700 3/2/01, Frank Saab wrote:

>- Does the firmware level affect tape capacity?
>   VXA firmware older than V21E1E1F (released 04/04/00) does
>   not let you select speed versus capacity optimization. With
>   the newer firmware, you can use VXAtool to reset this option.
>   The latest version of firmware is V2959 released 02/26/01.
>
>I hope that this is useful info. Let me know if you have any more
>questions or comments.
>
>- Frank Saab
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   Ecrix

Hi Frank,

Can you tell us what changes were made from v2848 (11/14/00) to v2959?

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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[ilyes]

Now THIS is TERRIFIC service!  Thanks very much for yr initiative,
Ecrix!  :-)

 - ilyes

 
> After I saw the series of postings on VXA tape capacity, I thought 
> it would help to get some info to you straight from us at Ecrix.  <


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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Frank Saab]

After I saw the series of postings on VXA tape capacity, I thought
it would help to get some info to you straight from us at Ecrix.
In this email, you'll find answers to these questions:
- Which files compress and which don't?
- How does Dantz software compression work with VXA?
- How does a VXA drive optimize for speed vs. capacity?
- What are the factory settings of the VXA drive?
- Does the firmware level affect tape capacity?
- How do I check my firmware version?
- How is tape capacity reported?
- How do I check my firmware version?
- Where do I get VXAtool and new VXA Firmware?
- Does VXAtool run on Mac?
- Does the VXA drive use streaming like other tape drives?
I hope that this is useful info. Let me know if you have any more
questions or comments.
- Frank Saab
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Ecrix
--
- Which files compress and which don't?
  gif files, jpeg's, mpeg's, mp3's, etc. are pre-compressed
  and you cannot expect any further compression. Text files,
  word documents, source code,  etc., compress at an
average
  ratio of 2 to 1. Binaries, executables, and system files
  compress at about 1.4 to 1.
- How does Dantz software compression work with VXA?
  If your files are compressible, turn software compression
  off and hardware compression on. If the files are not
  compressible, turn both hardware and software compression
  OFF. You reset hardware compression with VXAtool. Software
  compression is set in the Retrospect interface. If you
  are having trouble setting hardware/software compression,
  please contact us at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- How does a VXA drive optimize for speed vs. capacity?
  The VXA drive can run in one of two modes: One optimizes
  for speed (this is the factory setting). The other mode
  optimizes for capacity. If your connection to the drive
  is slow, use the capcity mode to get the most capacity
  on the tape. You can reset the mode with VXAtool.
- What are the factory settings of the VXA drive?
  The drive is set with hardware compression on and is set
  to favor speed over capacity.
- Does the firmware level affect tape capacity?
  VXA firmware older than V21E1E1F (released 04/04/00) does
  not let you select speed versus capacity optimization. With
  the newer firmware, you can use VXAtool to reset this option.
  The latest version of firmware is V2959 released 02/26/01.
- How do I check my firmware version?
  You can use VXAtool to check your firmware version.
- How is tape capacity reported?
  Almost all storage hardware manufacturers (including Ecrix)
  use the IEEE method of reporting capacity, where one GB
is
  1000 x 1000 x 1000 bytes. Retrospect software uses a different
  method, where one GB is 1024 x 1024 x 1024 bytes. Because
of
  this, the maximum capacity that Retrospect will report on
a
  VXA 33 GB tape is just over 30 GB, which is almost 33 GB
by
  the IEEE method.
- Where do I get VXAtool and new VXA Firmware?
  They are available from http://vxa.com/support
- Does VXAtool run on Mac?
  VXAtool is available in different versions for Mac, Linux,
  Windows, and DOS.
- Does the VXA drive use streaming like other tape drives?
  VXA drive is the first tape drive that does not use streaming.
  Its packet format lets it work at variable speed. This avoids
  shoeshining/backhitching, which are detrimental to the drive
  and to the tape. We have videos explaining this in more
detail
  at http://vxa.com/vxa and http://vxa.com/tour
I hope that this is useful info. Let me know if you have any more
questions or comments.
- Frank Saab
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Ecrix
 

Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Garret J. Cleversley]

on 3/1/01 2:12 PM, Daniel O'Donnell at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>> 
>>>  I am very happy with this as graphics files are very compressible (sp?).
>>> 


Sorry,

I missed the NOT in the above statement.

I backup graphics files mostly that's why I get only 34-35 gig on a
compressed tape. 

Garret

---
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CPI Digital Services, Inc. | Center Page, Inc. | 716-822-2212
• Certified Apple Technician | • Apple Solution Experts, Consultant
A+ & Network+ Certified, Member - CompTIA IT Professionals
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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Douglas K Wyman]

At 1:41 PM -0600 3/1/01, Ben Liberman wrote:
>1.  make sure VXA drive has the latest firmware
>2.  make sure VXA drive has hardware compression turned on
>3.  make sure VXA drive favors capacity over speed
>
>There are 2 settings, when configuring the VXA drive, that that affect tape 
>capacity...
>
>capacity [ device] [capacity] [y or n]
>set_compression  [ device] [set_compression] [y or n]
>
>I believe that the factory defaults are:
>   set_compression  y
>   capacity n

>My understanding is that the VXA drive does packet writes and has a variable speed 
>writing mechanism and thus has much less of a problem with inter-record gaps (gaps of 
>about 100k per pause with capacity turned on with about a 10% loss in speed)

Ben,
I agree that Ecrix is the company most visibly in touch with this problem.

The principals of the company came from Exabyte and learned from the
experience. The VXA drives do a great deal to compensate for data
starvation, particularly considering the low price point of the product.

Setting the VXA drive parameter to favour capacity, however, will still
increase the number of shoe-shines due to data starvation and therefore
increase the backup time.

You make your choices and take your chances, as they say.

Good comments, taken in context!

Doug.Wyman
Houston TX


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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Ben Liberman]

At 18:48 +0800 3/1/01, Rob Findlay wrote:
>Hi Backup People,
>
>I have set up one of my clients with an Ecrix VXA tape drive using the above
>media. It was my understanding that with the hardware compression built into
>the drive turned on I would get the full 66 Gig capacity. My client has just
>rung me to say that Retrospect is requesting a new tape & a quick inspection
>(over the phone via my client) of the original tape in the scheduled backup
>set revealed that it has used 33 Gig. I will have to go & investigate this
>but could someone who knows please tell me if I need to have software
>compression turned on to get 66 Gig out of the tape or is there something
>else making Retrospect ask for another tape.

For maximum capacity...

1.  make sure VXA drive has the latest firmware
2.  make sure VXA drive has hardware compression turned on
3.  make sure VXA drive favors capacity over speed

There are 2 settings, when configuring the VXA drive, that that 
affect tape capacity...

 capacity [ device] [capacity] [y or n]
 set_compression  [ device] [set_compression] [y or n]

I believe that the factory defaults are:
set_compression  y
capacity n

At 11:42 -0600 3/1/01, Douglas K Wyman wrote:
>Streaming tape drives (virtually all modern drives including Exabyte,
>DDS-DAT, AIT, VXA, DLT, LTO etc) have a real-time requirement for
>data flow. If the backups system is not able to keep the tape drive buffer
>above its low water mark, the drive will start writing extended record
>gaps (tape with no user data; the lexicon and semantics vary from
>vendor to vendor) in order to avoid stopping the tape motion while
>waiting for data. Obviously this consumes more tape than if all data
records were written contiguously without record gaps.


Doug,

My understanding is that the VXA drive does packet writes and has a 
variable speed writing mechanism and thus has much less of a problem 
with inter-record gaps (gaps of about 100k per pause with capacity 
turned on with about a 10% loss in speed)

(I'll Bcc: Ecrix tech support on this just in case I have the info wrong.)
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RE: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Stephen Jones]

You do run the risk of expanding your data if you back it up with
compression... but that depends on the drive technology.

For example, the AIT algo for compression checks to see if the data is
compressible before writing it.  If the data is compressible, it writes a
compressed block.  If the data is not compressible (.gif, .jpg, etc), then
it writes an uncompressed block.  It's able to do that on-the-fly and still
meet the rated transfer speed.

By using this method, you do not run the risk of expanding your data when it
is pre-compressed.  That's why I encourage all of our AIT customers to keep
hardware compression activated.  With other technologies that we distribute,
I advise that they turn compression off when dealing with non-linear video,
audio or pre-compressed graphics, otherwise they will not store the full
capacity.

Steve
www.cybernetics.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
Of Daniel O'Donnell
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 2:12 PM
To: retro-talk
Subject: Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect


I was puzzled by the statement as well. The biggest files these days
tend to be motion graphics or animations such as QuickTime or MPEG.
QT and MPEG are already compressed and will show very little if any
subsequent compression.

At 10:23 AM -0800 on 3/1/01, Jon Stevens wrote:
>on 3/1/01 8:04 AM, "Garret J. Cleversley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>  I am very happy with this as graphics files are very compressible (sp?).
>>
>>  Garret
>
>Eh? It really depends on the type of file you are compressing.
>
>If the image (or any data for that matter) is already stored in a
compressed
>format (for example, .gif images are stored compressed), then there is
>absolutely no gain and in fact, you might have a negative effect.
>
>For example, a quick and dirty test:
>
>I have a .gif file on disk that is:
>
>12,461 bytes
>
>Compressed with Stuffit, the image becomes:
>
>12,677 bytes
>
>It is actually LARGER in compressed format!
>
>Just wanted to clarify that statement lest anyone become enamored with the
>idea that all graphic files compress well.
>
>thanks,
>
>-jon



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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Jon Stevens]

on 3/1/01 8:04 AM, "Garret J. Cleversley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I am very happy with this as graphics files are very compressible (sp?).
> 
> Garret

Eh? It really depends on the type of file you are compressing.

If the image (or any data for that matter) is already stored in a compressed
format (for example, .gif images are stored compressed), then there is
absolutely no gain and in fact, you might have a negative effect.

For example, a quick and dirty test:

I have a .gif file on disk that is:

12,461 bytes

Compressed with Stuffit, the image becomes:

12,677 bytes

It is actually LARGER in compressed format!

Just wanted to clarify that statement lest anyone become enamored with the
idea that all graphic files compress well.

thanks,

-jon



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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Garret J. Cleversley]

on 3/1/01 11:28 AM, Rob Findlay at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Does anyone use software compression or is this a waste of time? I'm sure it
> slows things down even more.

It slows it down and is unneeded as hardware compression is built in.

Garret

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CPI Digital Services, Inc. | Center Page, Inc. | 716-822-2212
• Certified Apple Technician | • Apple Solution Experts, Consultant
A+ & Network+ Certified, Member - CompTIA IT Professionals
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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Rob Findlay]

That's what I wanted to know
Thanks Garret. Thanks also to Douglas who suggested I upgrade the firmware.
Does anyone use software compression or is this a waste of time? I'm sure it
slows things down even more.
-- 
Rob Findlay
Mactherapy - Solutions & Support
For Macintosh Computers
http://www.mactherapy.com
*

> From: "Garret J. Cleversley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:04:19 -0500
> To: retrospect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect
> 
> on 3/1/01 6:59 AM, Douglas K Wyman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>>> I have set up one of my clients with an Ecrix VXA tape drive using the above
>>> media. It was my understanding that with the hardware compression built into
>>> the drive turned on I would get the full 66 Gig capacity. My client has just
>>> rung me to say that Retrospect is requesting a new tape & a quick inspection
>>> (over the phone via my client) of the original tape in the scheduled backup
>>> set revealed that it has used 33 Gig. I will have to go & investigate this
>>> but could someone who knows please tell me if I need to have software
>>> compression turned on to get 66 Gig out of the tape or is there something
>>> else making Retrospect ask for another tape.
> 
> 66gig is the maximum at optimum performance. IE: backing up word files on a
> local drive.
> 
> I have the latest firmware in my drive and while it helped I still only get
> about 34-38 gig per tape.
> 
> My setup is a dedicated machine running over a switched 100baseT network
> backing up mainly graphics files. I get 180meg/min.
> 
> I am very happy with this as graphics files are very compressible (sp?).
> 
> Garret
> 
> ---
> Garret J. Cleversley | Vice President | Apple Product Professional
> CPI Digital Services, Inc. | Center Page, Inc. | 716-822-2212
> • Certified Apple Technician | • Apple Solution Experts, Consultant
> A+ & Network+ Certified, Member - CompTIA IT Professionals
> ---
> 
> 
> 
> --
> --
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> For urgent issues, please contact Dantz technical support directly at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 925.253.3050.
> 



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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Douglas K Wyman]

Rob,
there can be a compounding of tape usage and excessive backup time
caused by poor backup system design & implementation.
This merits explaining:

Streaming tape drives (virtually all modern drives including Exabyte,
DDS-DAT, AIT, VXA, DLT, LTO etc) have a real-time requirement for
data flow. If the backups system is not able to keep the tape drive buffer
above its low water mark, the drive will start writing extended record
gaps (tape with no user data; the lexicon and semantics vary from
vendor to vendor) in order to avoid stopping the tape motion while
waiting for data. Obviously this consumes more tape than if all data
records were written contiguously without record gaps. The drive firmware
will, eventually, stop the tape motion after a predetermined (or programmable)
delay to conserve tape, while waiting for enough data to arrive in the buffer
before starting to record on tape again. Unfortunately, before starting to record
again, the drive must rewind as small segment of tape and start moving forward
again so the the trailing portion of the recorded data (drive data, not user data) 
can be located and over-written to "splice" the new records onto
the existing records...or words to that effect. If this all happens frequently,
then overall drive performance drops through the floor. Second generation
cartridge drives may have adaptive firmware, large buffers, variable speed
tape transports etc. to reduce the effect of "shoe shining" but it is a
fundamental limitation of streaming tape technology.

The common sources of data starvation, which cause this shoe shining
(aka back-hitching) are
* slow or overloaded network links to data source (remote system)
* overloaded or inadequate CPU resources on backup system
* overloaded or inadequate CPU resources on remote systems

The very best backup system has its hard disks attached to the same CPU as
the tape drive(s), an adequately scaled backup CPU with no other applications
running and no network activity which would cause the backup system to become
unresponsive for periods of time. As much as practical, the backup system should
be a dedicated, standalone system. Anything less is a compromise and the administrator
must be very aware of the degree to which the system is being degraded.
Certainly there will be complaints that this is unrealistic. Perhaps, but it
is a undisputed guideline for backup system design.

Degraded backup system performance, whether related to CPU, memory, network,
storage or other applications hogging resources will have two primary effects,
both at the same time:

* excessive tape usage
* very poor backup performance (slow)

Staging data from disk on the remote system to disk on the backup system
can overcome these problems but it is an extra step (or several depending
on the situation).

Before impugning Retrospect or even the tape drive for poor performance,
it is often worthwhile to test making the same backup (same data, same drives)
with the data locally attached to backup server.

...more of a speech than anyone wanted to hear.
I'm going to yield back the remainder of my time to the list...

Doug.Wyman
Houston TX





>\Hi Backup People,
>
>I have set up one of my clients with an Ecrix VXA tape drive using the above
>media. It was my understanding that with the hardware compression built into
>the drive turned on I would get the full 66 Gig capacity. My client has just
>rung me to say that Retrospect is requesting a new tape & a quick inspection
>(over the phone via my client) of the original tape in the scheduled backup
>set revealed that it has used 33 Gig. I will have to go & investigate this
>but could someone who knows please tell me if I need to have software
>compression turned on to get 66 Gig out of the tape or is there something
>else making Retrospect ask for another tape.
>



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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Irena Solomon]

Retrospect will detect that the drive has compression and will override the
software settings, so having software compression enabled should not affect
performance if you are running Retrospect 4.3 with Ecrix's latest firmware.

Regards,

Irena Solomon
Dantz Technical Support
925.253.3050



> From: Rob Findlay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect
> 
> That's what I wanted to know
> Thanks Garret. Thanks also to Douglas who suggested I upgrade the firmware.
> Does anyone use software compression or is this a waste of time? I'm sure it
> slows things down even more.
> -- 
> Rob Findlay
> Mactherapy - Solutions & Support
> For Macintosh Computers
> http://www.mactherapy.com
> *
> 
>> From: "Garret J. Cleversley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:04:19 -0500
>> To: retrospect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect
>> 
>> on 3/1/01 6:59 AM, Douglas K Wyman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>>>> I have set up one of my clients with an Ecrix VXA tape drive using the
>>>> above
>>>> media. It was my understanding that with the hardware compression built
>>>> into
>>>> the drive turned on I would get the full 66 Gig capacity. My client has
>>>> just
>>>> rung me to say that Retrospect is requesting a new tape & a quick
>>>> inspection
>>>> (over the phone via my client) of the original tape in the scheduled backup
>>>> set revealed that it has used 33 Gig. I will have to go & investigate this
>>>> but could someone who knows please tell me if I need to have software
>>>> compression turned on to get 66 Gig out of the tape or is there something
>>>> else making Retrospect ask for another tape.
>> 
>> 66gig is the maximum at optimum performance. IE: backing up word files on a
>> local drive.
>> 
>> I have the latest firmware in my drive and while it helped I still only get
>> about 34-38 gig per tape.
>> 
>> My setup is a dedicated machine running over a switched 100baseT network
>> backing up mainly graphics files. I get 180meg/min.
>> 
>> I am very happy with this as graphics files are very compressible (sp?).
>> 
>> Garret



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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Garret J. Cleversley]

on 3/1/01 6:59 AM, Douglas K Wyman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>> I have set up one of my clients with an Ecrix VXA tape drive using the above
>> media. It was my understanding that with the hardware compression built into
>> the drive turned on I would get the full 66 Gig capacity. My client has just
>> rung me to say that Retrospect is requesting a new tape & a quick inspection
>> (over the phone via my client) of the original tape in the scheduled backup
>> set revealed that it has used 33 Gig. I will have to go & investigate this
>> but could someone who knows please tell me if I need to have software
>> compression turned on to get 66 Gig out of the tape or is there something
>> else making Retrospect ask for another tape.

66gig is the maximum at optimum performance. IE: backing up word files on a
local drive.

I have the latest firmware in my drive and while it helped I still only get
about 34-38 gig per tape.

My setup is a dedicated machine running over a switched 100baseT network
backing up mainly graphics files. I get 180meg/min.

I am very happy with this as graphics files are very compressible (sp?).

Garret

---
Garret J. Cleversley | Vice President | Apple Product Professional
CPI Digital Services, Inc. | Center Page, Inc. | 716-822-2212
• Certified Apple Technician | • Apple Solution Experts, Consultant
A+ & Network+ Certified, Member - CompTIA IT Professionals
---



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Re: Ecrix VXA 33/66 tapes with Retrospect

[Douglas K Wyman]

Rob,
I recall reading, but don't recall where, that this is related to a
firmware issue in the drive. In any case, it would be adviseable
to check the firmware and bring it to current level:
Here's the Ecrix firmware page:

http://www.ecrix.com/support/download.cfm

Doug.Wyman


>Hi Backup People,
>
>I have set up one of my clients with an Ecrix VXA tape drive using the above
>media. It was my understanding that with the hardware compression built into
>the drive turned on I would get the full 66 Gig capacity. My client has just
>rung me to say that Retrospect is requesting a new tape & a quick inspection
>(over the phone via my client) of the original tape in the scheduled backup
>set revealed that it has used 33 Gig. I will have to go & investigate this
>but could someone who knows please tell me if I need to have software
>compression turned on to get 66 Gig out of the tape or is there something
>else making Retrospect ask for another tape.
>
>The backup set which was due to be used tonight was set A & Retrospect is
>saying that it will call the new tape 2-set A which makes me think it
>probably is full.
>
>Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to reply
>Regards
>--
>Rob Findlay
>Mactherapy - Solutions & Support
>For Macintosh Computers
>http://www.mactherapy.com
>*
>
>
>
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