Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[Kwankyu Lee]

A suggestion for votes for sage development process:

1.  Anyone can call for a vote for a relevant issue for sage development.
2.  A vote must be preceded by a discussion on the issue on sage-devel, 
where the date and the duration of the vote is determined. A vote lasts at 
least a week. 
3.  If a dispute about the date or the duration of the vote arises, we have 
another vote for the date or the duration among the suggested candidates. 
This vote for vote is called for only once, immediately, and lasts for a 
week.

An exemplary format of a vote is 
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/7h5JoRgHpxY

Will we have a vote for this? :) Other suggestion? 


  

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[William Stein]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 8:09 PM John H Palmieri  wrote:
>
> The main response I saw to the requests for a slower process was from David 
> Roe, saying, "Finally, since we're just voting on trac vs github I don't 
> think there's a need to draw out the discussion until October 1, and several 
> people (William and Dima) have made arguments for making a decision more 
> quickly." I find this rather dismissive of the views of those who requested a 
> more deliberate process. It would be good to have a procedure for determining 
> timing for votes, something other than one person just making a decision.
>
> As a starting point:
>
> 1. Anyone can call for a vote, and the vote should last at least a week: it 
> is not reasonable to ask for votes more quickly than that, barring an 
> emergency that demands very fast action. We call for votes all the time, e.g. 
> recent decisions about formatting options for Sage documentation, and there 
> is no reason to make the overall procedure more complicated.
> 2. Anyone can then request a delay or an extension of the vote. The default 
> response should be to accept the delay/extension: "yes, the vote will now end 
> on ...". If people believe that the delay is unreasonable ("we need to delay 
> this vote by 25 years") or if they have other reasons to object, then we can 
> hold a one-week vote, no delays allowed, to decide whether to accept the 
> delay or not.
>
> The second point is flawed: what to do if there are multiple requests to 
> delay? Maybe see if the people making the requests can come to a consensus 
> about the time. If not, then vote on the shortest proposed delay? The longest 
> one? The average? (We have a reasonably healthy community, but all the same, 
> I don't want to create a rule that can be abused: one person asks for a 
> ridiculous delay, then we hold a one-week vote that fails, then another 
> person, or even the same person, asks for another ridiculous delay, etc.)
>
> Alternatively, we have a steering committee that steps in to make decisions, 
> for example about the timing of votes, when there is disagreement.
>
> Other options?

What happens in an academic department (e.g., UW)?  For example, what
if there is an important department vote about to happen that is
brought to the faculty by a committee, and a faculty member states at
the faculty meeting: "we should delay this vote for 2 weeks to respect
people with a busy schedule, to allow a constructive debate, and to
explore all possibilities".  Is there a procedure for delaying votes
in faculty meetings?

I'm just asking because bylaws tend to spell out in detail the answers
to questions like this, and it's nice to have a concrete example.

I tried searching for examples of delaying votes in US politics, and
in Summer 2020, Trump tried very hard to delay the US presidential
election:

https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+delay+election

>
> --
> John
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> several developers asked for delays, to respect people with a busy
>> schedule, to allow a constructive debate, to explore all possibilities,
>> to move away from the noise and confusion related to a minor event
>> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>>
>> Democracy is not a race, i wish such a simple and reasonable request to
>> be respected.
>>
>> Ciao,
>> Thierry
>>
>> [1] John : "I don't see a reason to rush a vote"
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/q5V9ov5FAAAJ
>>
>> [2] Jan : "I don't think the move is so urgent though"
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/0Lk5pzdjBwAJ
>>
>> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>>
>> [4] Sébastien : "The urgency of short term issues does not imply the
>> urgency of long term issues"
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/B19uBWUJCAAJ
>>
>> [5] Travis : "First off, we need to slow down significantly as we do not
>> have an general clear consensus about doing this move."
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/E3_sU2Y6CAAJ
>>
>> [6] Thierry : "one month break is a bare minimum."
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/STo_AT9qFgAJ
>>
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-- 
William (http://wstein.org)

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[sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[John H Palmieri]

The main response I saw to the requests for a slower process was from David 
Roe, saying, "Finally, since we're just voting on trac vs github I don't 
think there's a need to draw out the discussion until October 1, and 
several people (William and Dima) have made arguments for making a decision 
more quickly." I find this rather dismissive of the views of those who 
requested a more deliberate process. It would be good to have a procedure 
for determining timing for votes, something other than one person just 
making a decision.

As a starting point:

1. Anyone can call for a vote, and the vote should last at least a week: it 
is not reasonable to ask for votes more quickly than that, barring an 
emergency that demands very fast action. We call for votes all the time, 
e.g. recent decisions about formatting options for Sage documentation, and 
there is no reason to make the overall procedure more complicated.
2. Anyone can then request a delay or an extension of the vote. The default 
response should be to accept the delay/extension: "yes, the vote will now 
end on ...". If people believe that the delay is unreasonable ("we need to 
delay this vote by 25 years") or if they have other reasons to object, then 
we can hold a one-week vote, no delays allowed, to decide whether to accept 
the delay or not.

The second point is flawed: what to do if there are multiple requests to 
delay? Maybe see if the people making the requests can come to a consensus 
about the time. If not, then vote on the shortest proposed delay? The 
longest one? The average? (We have a reasonably healthy community, but all 
the same, I don't want to create a rule that can be abused: one person asks 
for a ridiculous delay, then we hold a one-week vote that fails, then 
another person, or even the same person, asks for another ridiculous delay, 
etc.)

Alternatively, we have a steering committee that steps in to make 
decisions, for example about the timing of votes, when there is 
disagreement.

Other options?

-- 
John



On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
(sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:

> Hi,
>
> several developers asked for delays, to respect people with a busy
> schedule, to allow a constructive debate, to explore all possibilities,
> to move away from the noise and confusion related to a minor event
> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>
> Democracy is not a race, i wish such a simple and reasonable request to
> be respected.
>
> Ciao,
> Thierry
>
> [1] John : "I don't see a reason to rush a vote"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/q5V9ov5FAAAJ
>
> [2] Jan : "I don't think the move is so urgent though"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/0Lk5pzdjBwAJ
>
> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>
> [4] Sébastien : "The urgency of short term issues does not imply the 
> urgency of long term issues"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/B19uBWUJCAAJ
>
> [5] Travis : "First off, we need to slow down significantly as we do not 
> have an general clear consensus about doing this move."
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/E3_sU2Y6CAAJ
>
> [6] Thierry : "one month break is a bare minimum."
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/STo_AT9qFgAJ
>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[Dima Pasechnik]

I must have been what Dutch would call "direct", English "undiplomatic" and
French "violent", I guess.

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022, 20:31 Matthias Koeppe,  wrote:

> Sorry, bad link, I meant to paste this link:
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/5jotDDgyBwAJ
>
> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 12:29:50 PM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>
>> I'm guessing that this must be a language barrier at work here,
>> but these accusations of using "violence"
>> (first occurrence,
>> https://cfce091fecee537040d612098a22852d9f083c36--sagemath-tobias.netlify.app/developer/index.html#welcome-to-the-sage-developer-s-guide
>> )
>> are by far the most offensive thing that happened both in the original
>> thread and in the current thread.
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:44:37 AM UTC-7 vdelecroix wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I do not interpret Thierry message as an attempt to change the issue
>>> of the vote. Most of the answers focused on this particular point and
>>> hence look completely off topic to me. More dramatically they are also
>>> very rude in that they try to discredit what Thierry attempted to
>>> share. I also felt a lot of violence during the discussion that
>>> preceded the vote and it does continue right now. The problem is about
>>> the form and not about the issue of the decision.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Vincent
>>>
>>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 at 19:19, David Roe  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I will also note that the final vote in favor of moving to github was
>>> 46 to 8 in favor. Another few weeks of discussion, on top of the
>>> substantial amount of time spent over the last few months (in fact, over
>>> the last decade), is unlikely to have changed the outcome.
>>> > David
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 12:51 PM Matthias Koeppe 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry
>>> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> several developers asked for delays [...]
>>> >>> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> This is a misrepresentation of most of the 6 cited messages. I'll
>>> just point out one specifically:
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very
>>> premature"
>>> >>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> This message from Vincent dates Sep 10, which *prompted* our efforts
>>> to write the detailed
>>> >> transition guide, work out many details etc. over the following week.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "sage-devel" group.
>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>> send an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
>>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/6ffb834f-3300-43c6-be46-db35ec4000a6n%40googlegroups.com.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > --
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>>>
>>>
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> .
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[Matthias Koeppe]

Sorry, bad link, I meant to paste this link: 
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/5jotDDgyBwAJ

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 12:29:50 PM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:

> I'm guessing that this must be a language barrier at work here, 
> but these accusations of using "violence" 
> (first occurrence, 
> https://cfce091fecee537040d612098a22852d9f083c36--sagemath-tobias.netlify.app/developer/index.html#welcome-to-the-sage-developer-s-guide
> )
> are by far the most offensive thing that happened both in the original 
> thread and in the current thread.
>
> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:44:37 AM UTC-7 vdelecroix wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I do not interpret Thierry message as an attempt to change the issue
>> of the vote. Most of the answers focused on this particular point and
>> hence look completely off topic to me. More dramatically they are also
>> very rude in that they try to discredit what Thierry attempted to
>> share. I also felt a lot of violence during the discussion that
>> preceded the vote and it does continue right now. The problem is about
>> the form and not about the issue of the decision.
>>
>> Best,
>> Vincent
>>
>> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 at 19:19, David Roe  wrote:
>> >
>> > I will also note that the final vote in favor of moving to github was 
>> 46 to 8 in favor. Another few weeks of discussion, on top of the 
>> substantial amount of time spent over the last few months (in fact, over 
>> the last decade), is unlikely to have changed the outcome.
>> > David
>> >
>> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 12:51 PM Matthias Koeppe  
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
>> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> several developers asked for delays [...]
>> >>> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This is a misrepresentation of most of the 6 cited messages. I'll just 
>> point out one specifically:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
>> >>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This message from Vincent dates Sep 10, which *prompted* our efforts 
>> to write the detailed
>> >> transition guide, work out many details etc. over the following week.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "sage-devel" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/6ffb834f-3300-43c6-be46-db35ec4000a6n%40googlegroups.com
>> .
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "sage-devel" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
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>> .
>>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[Matthias Koeppe]

I'm guessing that this must be a language barrier at work here, 
but these accusations of using "violence" 
(first occurrence, 
https://cfce091fecee537040d612098a22852d9f083c36--sagemath-tobias.netlify.app/developer/index.html#welcome-to-the-sage-developer-s-guide)
are by far the most offensive thing that happened both in the original 
thread and in the current thread.

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:44:37 AM UTC-7 vdelecroix wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I do not interpret Thierry message as an attempt to change the issue
> of the vote. Most of the answers focused on this particular point and
> hence look completely off topic to me. More dramatically they are also
> very rude in that they try to discredit what Thierry attempted to
> share. I also felt a lot of violence during the discussion that
> preceded the vote and it does continue right now. The problem is about
> the form and not about the issue of the decision.
>
> Best,
> Vincent
>
> On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 at 19:19, David Roe  wrote:
> >
> > I will also note that the final vote in favor of moving to github was 46 
> to 8 in favor. Another few weeks of discussion, on top of the substantial 
> amount of time spent over the last few months (in fact, over the last 
> decade), is unlikely to have changed the outcome.
> > David
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 12:51 PM Matthias Koeppe  
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
> >>>
> >>> several developers asked for delays [...]
> >>> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
> >>
> >>
> >> This is a misrepresentation of most of the 6 cited messages. I'll just 
> point out one specifically:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
> >>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
> >>
> >>
> >> This message from Vincent dates Sep 10, which *prompted* our efforts to 
> write the detailed
> >> transition guide, work out many details etc. over the following week.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "sage-devel" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/6ffb834f-3300-43c6-be46-db35ec4000a6n%40googlegroups.com
> .
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "sage-devel" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
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> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:44:37 AM UTC-7 vdelecroix wrote:

> I do not interpret Thierry message as an attempt to change the issue 
> of the vote.
>

It's probably better if Thierry could clarify that.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[Vincent Delecroix]

Dear all,

I do not interpret Thierry message as an attempt to change the issue
of the vote. Most of the answers focused on this particular point and
hence look completely off topic to me. More dramatically they are also
very rude in that they try to discredit what Thierry attempted to
share. I also felt a lot of violence during the discussion that
preceded the vote and it does continue right now. The problem is about
the form and not about the issue of the decision.

Best,
Vincent

On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 at 19:19, David Roe  wrote:
>
> I will also note that the final vote in favor of moving to github was 46 to 8 
> in favor.  Another few weeks of discussion, on top of the substantial amount 
> of time spent over the last few months (in fact, over the last decade), is 
> unlikely to have changed the outcome.
> David
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 12:51 PM Matthias Koeppe  
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
>> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>>>
>>> several developers asked for delays [...]
>>> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>>
>>
>> This is a misrepresentation of most of the 6 cited messages. I'll just point 
>> out one specifically:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>>
>>
>> This message from Vincent dates Sep 10, which *prompted* our efforts to 
>> write the detailed
>> transition guide, work out many details etc. over the following week.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "sage-devel" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/6ffb834f-3300-43c6-be46-db35ec4000a6n%40googlegroups.com.
>
> --
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[David Roe]

I will also note that the final vote in favor of moving to github was 46 to
8 in favor.  Another few weeks of discussion, on top of the substantial
amount of time spent over the last few months (in fact, over the last
decade), is unlikely to have changed the outcome.
David

On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 12:51 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry
> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
>
>> several developers asked for delays [...]
>> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>
>
> This is a misrepresentation of most of the 6 cited messages. I'll just
> point out one specifically:
>
>
>>
>> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>
>
> This message from Vincent dates Sep 10, which *prompted* our efforts to
> write the detailed
> transition guide, work out many details etc. over the following week.
>
>
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: VOTE: move Sage development to Github

[David Roe]

Thanks to everyone for voting!  The final results are 46 in favor of moving
to Github and 8 against.

There is still a lot of work to be done to carry out the transition, and
we'll be coordinating on this wiki page
 and this
trac ticket , as well as various
threads on Sage devel.  We will make an announcement prior to running the
porting scripts.

I know that not everyone is happy with this decision, but I encourage those
who preferred trac to help us figure out how to make both the transition
and the Github-based workflow better.  Similarly, for those advocating for
regular backups of issues, there is a trac ticket
 to help coordinate work.
David

On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 11:33 AM sal...@gmail.com  wrote:

> +1 for github
>
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> 
> .
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
(sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:

> several developers asked for delays [...] 
> [1,2,3,4,5,6].


This is a misrepresentation of most of the 6 cited messages. I'll just 
point out one specifically:
 

>
> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature" 
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ


This message from Vincent dates Sep 10, which *prompted* our efforts to 
write the detailed 
transition guide, work out many details etc. over the following week.



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Re: [sage-devel] Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[William Stein]

> several developers asked for delays

The only governance mechanism we have for decision making in the Sage
project currently is a vote of the entire dev community.   Thus there
is no way to consider your request to delay voting aside from having
even more voting.

 -- William


On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 3:11 AM Thierry  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> several developers asked for delays, to respect people with a busy
> schedule, to allow a constructive debate, to explore all possibilities,
> to move away from the noise and confusion related to a minor event
> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>
> Democracy is not a race, i wish such a simple and reasonable request to
> be respected.
>
> Ciao,
> Thierry
>
> [1] John : "I don't see a reason to rush a vote"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/q5V9ov5FAAAJ
>
> [2] Jan : "I don't think the move is so urgent though"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/0Lk5pzdjBwAJ
>
> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>
> [4] Sébastien : "The urgency of short term issues does not imply the
> urgency of long term issues"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/B19uBWUJCAAJ
>
> [5] Travis : "First off, we need to slow down significantly as we do not
> have an general clear consensus about doing this move."
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/E3_sU2Y6CAAJ
>
> [6] Thierry : "one month break is a bare minimum."
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/STo_AT9qFgAJ
>
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--
William (http://wstein.org)

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[sage-devel] Re: Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[Matthias Koeppe]

Hi Thierry, 
It was to be expected that you'd send a message trying to question the 
legitimacy of the poll; 
I was only wondering whether it would arrive before or after the voting 
deadline.

It is the opposite of constructive.



On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 3:11:12 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
(sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:

> Hi,
>
> several developers asked for delays, to respect people with a busy
> schedule, to allow a constructive debate, to explore all possibilities,
> to move away from the noise and confusion related to a minor event
> [1,2,3,4,5,6].
>
> Democracy is not a race, i wish such a simple and reasonable request to
> be respected.
>
> Ciao,
> Thierry
>
> [1] John : "I don't see a reason to rush a vote"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/q5V9ov5FAAAJ
>
> [2] Jan : "I don't think the move is so urgent though"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/0Lk5pzdjBwAJ
>
> [3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ
>
> [4] Sébastien : "The urgency of short term issues does not imply the 
> urgency of long term issues"
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/B19uBWUJCAAJ
>
> [5] Travis : "First off, we need to slow down significantly as we do not 
> have an general clear consensus about doing this move."
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/E3_sU2Y6CAAJ
>
> [6] Thierry : "one month break is a bare minimum."
> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/STo_AT9qFgAJ
>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: VOTE: move Sage development to Github

[sal...@gmail.com]

+1 for github

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[sage-devel] Re: VOTE: move Sage development to Github

[Sébastien Labbé]

-1

(if we decide to move out of trac, then +1 for self hosted gitlab)

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: VOTE: move Sage development to Github

[Mike Zabrocki]

-1

On Tuesday, 4 October 2022 at 19:06:07 UTC-4 David Roe wrote:

> Just a reminder that voting ends tomorrow (noon EDT, 16:00 UTC), so if 
> you've been putting off voting you should do so now.
> David
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 7:39 AM Alex J Best  wrote:
>
>> +1 for github
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 21, 2022 at 7:23:36 PM UTC+2 David Roe wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Sage developers,
>>> Following extensive discussion, both recently 
>>>  
>>> (prompted 
>>> by issues upgrading the trac server) and over 
>>>  
>>> the 
>>>  
>>> last 
>>>  
>>> decade 
>>> , 
>>> we are calling a vote on switching Sage development from Trac 
>>>  to Github .  
>>> We've created a summary of the pros and cons of each system 
>>> , a 
>>> description 
>>> of the development model to be used on github 
>>> , 
>>> and a trac ticket  for 
>>> coordinating work on the transition.  More work will need to be done to 
>>> carry out the actual transition once voting is complete.
>>>
>>> The voting will last until noon Eastern time (16:00 UTC) on Wednesday, 
>>> October 5.  Please use this thread only for sending votes, to make it 
>>> easier to count them afterward; there is a parallel thread where you can 
>>> make arguments in favor of either system.
>>>
>>> Finally, I will close with a plea to be involved in this vote and 
>>> discussion even if you are not a core Sage developer.  By definition, core 
>>> Sage developers have become comfortable with trac, and I think that one of 
>>> the major arguments in favor of github is that it will help bring in new 
>>> contributors who are not familiar with Sage's development workfow 
>>> .  Anyone who 
>>> has ever contributed to the Sage code base or who maintains a Sage user 
>>> package is welcome to vote.
>>> David
>>>
>> -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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[sage-devel] Democratic issue: rushing decisions

[Thierry]

Hi,

several developers asked for delays, to respect people with a busy
schedule, to allow a constructive debate, to explore all possibilities,
to move away from the noise and confusion related to a minor event
[1,2,3,4,5,6].

Democracy is not a race, i wish such a simple and reasonable request to
be respected.

Ciao,
Thierry

[1] John : "I don't see a reason to rush a vote"
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/q5V9ov5FAAAJ

[2] Jan : "I don't think the move is so urgent though"
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/0Lk5pzdjBwAJ

[3] Vincent : "For me the discussion in this thread is very premature"
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/ZTXx_speBwAJ

[4] Sébastien : "The urgency of short term issues does not imply the 
urgency of long term issues"
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/B19uBWUJCAAJ

[5] Travis : "First off, we need to slow down significantly as we do not 
have an general clear consensus about doing this move."
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/E3_sU2Y6CAAJ

[6] Thierry : "one month break is a bare minimum."
https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/ayOL8_bzOfk/m/STo_AT9qFgAJ

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