Re: [scots-l] The Kirk
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I was going through McGibbon's Scots Tunes (1762, according to Glen)
and found a tune called An the Kirk wad let me be. I thought also
of the title De'il Stick the Minister, also from the mid-18th
century, and wondered if there was a connection. Perhaps some kind of
reaction to the Scottish Kirk at that time? Was there some kind of
anti-clerical feeling in Scotland in the mid-18th century, and was
this an influence or a reaction to the politics of the time?
Regards,
Andrew Kuntz
X:1
T:An the Kirk wad let me be
M:3/4
L:1/8
R:Air
N:Slow
S:McGibbon - Scots Tunes, Book 1 (c. 1762)
Z:AK/Fiddler's Companion
K:G
G3AG2 | B2d2e2 | {e}d2 (cB)(AG) | trA4G2 | A2B2d2 | tre4 (d/e/g) |
G2B2d2 |
g2f2e2 | d2 (cB)(AG) | A2B2d2 | B2 (cB)(AG) | trE4 D2 :: g2d2g2 | g3
aga |
trf3ed2 | (e2d2)B2 | g3 abc' | tr{b}a4 g2 | g2d2g2 | b2a2g2 |
trf3ed2 | e2f2g2 |
{e}d2 (cB)(AG) | tr{B}A4G2 :: d6 | (ed)(cB)g2 | {e}d2 (cB)(AG) |
tr{B}A4G2 |
tra4 (gf) | e2 tr(f2{e/f/}g2) | G2B2d2 | g2 (ag)tr(fe) | d2
(cB)(AG) | A2B2 (A/B/d) |
B2 (cB)(AG) | trE4D2 :: ga b2g2 | d2g2b2 | {b}a2 (gf)(ed) |
(e2d2)b2 | gfgab c' |
tr{b}a4 g2 | b 2 gabg | a2 fgaf | (gf)(ef)(ge) | (dcB)(cd)B | g2d2
Bc | tr{B}A4G2 :|
M:9/8
L:1/8
N:Brisk
GAG Bde dBG | trA2G ABd tre2g | GAB gfe dBG | ABd cAG trE2D :|
|: gdg gag trfed | edB gab tra2g | gag bag trfed | (e/f/g)e
dBG trA2G :|
See the Irish tune title index on my website for other (crossed
referenced) titles.
There is evidence from The Scottish Contract, c 1676, (Silly Old Masn
title) that the tune was known then in England, and The Scottish
Contract (in Scarce Songs file on my website contains an early version
of The Blythsome Bridal, a main title of An the kirk wad lat me
be
Bruce O.
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click here for homepage (=
subject index) /a
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Re: [scots-l] Old Age and Young
Steve Wyrick wrote: Bruce Olson wrote: There are some 'old age and young' (and 'Ages of Man') songs since the late 16th century, and I'll take a look at them when I can, but it will be a fews days from now (Monday) at least. Bruce Olson I'd appreciate any information you have, Bruce, whenever you get to it. Thanks -Steve -- Steve Wyrick -- Concord, California Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html For two quickies see in the broadside ballad index in section 1 below, ZN3555, and ZN271. -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at my no-spam website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click here for homepage (= subject index) /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Old Age and Young
Jack Campin wrote: I suppose this sort of relates to last week's discussion of 3/2 hornpipes. I abc'd this tune from Robert Petrie's 3rd Collection of Strathspey Reels c. this week for a friend and thought someone here might be interested in it. The tempo seems weird at first glance but it's a lot of fun to play! I have 2 questions: 1) What does the title mean? I'm guessing Old Age and Young Never Agrees. Yup. I have seen a text for it once, perhaps Bruce knows it? 2) Does anyone know what sort of dance would have been done to it? T:Auld Eage and Young Never Grees the Gither It's a 3/2 hornpipe (as discussed here this week); I posted a mid-18th century version of it a few months back. It's probably a Scottish version of an English tune from the 17th century; Three Sharp Knives and Black's Hornpipe both resemble it. For lots more, look for John Offord's transcription of John of the Greeny Cheshire Way - ABCed and on the web somewhere - or Thomas Marsden's 1705 collection of Lancashire hornpipes, which I guess must have been reprinted but I have no idea when. Here's that Scots version (with only three parts): X:2 T:Old Age and Young S:Dow MS, fiddle part (c.1746?) N:written as 6/4 in MS N:first note in bar 2 of third section is missing in MS, my guess N:third note in bar 3 of third section is missing in MS, my guess M:3/2 L:1/4 Q:1/2=100 % my guess K:GDor G2 Bc d(c/B/)|A FF c A(G/F/) |G2 Bc d(c/B/)|A G2 g A(G/F/) :| ga gG A2 |F f2 F A/B/c/A/|ga gG A2 |G g2 G A/B/c/A/:| GA GG, B,2|G, D2 B AG/F/ |GA GG, B,2|D g2 B AG/F/ :| These things are metrically a bit like some Swedish schottisches. Is there any genetic relationship or similarity in the dance steps? An oddity of 3/2 tunes in Scotland is that by the late 18th century they came to be associated with childhood - Nathaniel Gow's Miss Baird of Saughtonhall was for a girl of 7, and Go to Berwick Johnnie is given a nursery-song text in the notes to the Scots Musical Museum. - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ * homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html There are some 'old age and young' (and 'Ages of Man') songs since the late 16th century, and I'll take a look at them when I can, but it will be a fews days from now (Monday) at least. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at my no-spam website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click here for homepage (= subject index) /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Jig classifications
Jack Campin wrote: Similarly, are 3/2 hornpipes referred to as Old Hornpipes or is there another term that is in common use? - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 It almost seems like we should qualify our definitions as jig (dance) versus jig (tune) since the same word is used both in commentary on dances and on tunes, with, often no correspondance. Most 18th century jigs were for country dances, not for jigs (as dance). Hornpipe as a country dance c 1565: Here's an extract (from the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website) of an English imitation of a Scots song of a wooing and wedding of about 1565. Here we have some description of the hornpipe dance that the piper played. It's obvious that a hornpipe (dance) at that time was nothing like the hornpipe of the 18th and later centuries. Dance [earliest description of hornpipe?] Now play us a horn pype, Jacky can say; Then todle lowdle the pyper dyd playe. Harry Sprig, Harry Spryg, Mawde my doughtare, Thomas my sone, and Jone cum after. Wylkyn and Malkyn and Marryon be nam, Lettes all kepe the strock in the peane of shame. Torn about, Robyn; let Besse stand asyde; Now smyt up, mynstrell, the women cryde. The pyper playd with his fynggars and thommes; Play thick and short, mynstrell; my mothar commis. I wyl dance,' said one and I for the wars; Dance we, dance we, dance we! Heighe! quoth Hogkyne, gyrd byth ars, Letts dance all for compayne. Halfe torne, Jone, haffe nowe, Jock! Well dansyde, be sent Dennye! [St. Dennis And he that breakys the firste strocke, Sall gyve the pypar a pennye. In with fut, Robsone! owt with fut, Byllynge! Here wyll be good daunsyng belyve; Daunsyng hath cost me forty good shyllynge, Ye forti shillynge and fyve. Torn rownde, Robyne! kepe trace, Wylkyne! Mak churchye pege behynde, Set fut to fut a pas, quod Pylkyne; Abowt with howghe let us wynde. No, Tybe, war, Tom well, sayd Cate; Kepe in Sandar, hold owte, Syme. Nowe, Gaff, hear gome abowt me mat; Nyccoll, well dansyde and tryme. A gambole, quod Jocky, stand asyde; Let ylke man play his parte. Mak rom, my mastars; stande mor wyde; I pray youe with all my harte. Hear ys for me wightly whipte, And it wear even for the nons; Now for the lyghtly skypte, Well staggeryde on the stonnys. Be sweat sent Tandrowe, I am weary. quoth Jennye, Good pypar, holde thy peace; .. How does a hop jig differ from a slip jig? Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at my no-spam website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click here for homepage (= subject index) /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] playing in a Scots band
Ken Pollard wrote: A short time ago, Nigel Gatherer asked who else was playing in a Scottish band. I'm a bit reluctant to reply, but since things have been a little quiet here, maybe it would be ok. We have a relatively new Scottish Country Dance club here in Boise, Idaho. Our instructor, Mairi, is from Scotland, as is one other member. The rest of us are Americans, many with some Scots heritage. Most, I suspect, are like myself, and can claim ancestral heritage from many countries. I started out dancing with the Scottish Country dancers, being a contra-dancer prior, and then slowly migrated to playing fiddle for the dancers -- though I'm still on the dance-demo team. We also dance to pipes, and the Boise Highlanders are a top-notch pipe drum band. Anyway, I'm busy trying to pick up the Scots accent on my fiddle. There's something about the music that just resonated with me. I've been listening to the music for several years, such as Alastair Fraser and Bonnie Rideout, in addition to several of the Cape Breton fiddlers, but have only in the past year have I dedicated my own efforts to Scottish style. And I don't have enough background to distinguish between regional styles, unless perhaps I can notice a difference in Shetland fiddling. Playing for the dancers is good discipline, and tempo is always hard work. The easy tunes seem too slow, and the hard tunes seem too fast. We had a workshop here in Boise last May, with Muriel Johnstone helping us musicians. She had many good pointers, and we wish we'd had her for a longer time -- though she started out with tunes in F and Bb, which really stretched my old-time music fingers. I recently bought Traditional Scottish Fiddling book and CD from Taigh na Teud via their website. So far, it's a decent book, though I think that my efforts over the past year help me to appreciate some of the subtleties in the book. And the CD is essential -- the notation only goes so far. We also started a Scottish Folk band to play at various ceilidh. We played at a local Farmer's Market last week, and are now gearing up for the Boise Highland Games on Sept. 20th. Anyway, that's the report from Southwestern Idaho in the USA. Ken Pollard Nampa, Idaho Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html You might try to lure Murray Shoolbraid for a visit. He's on an island (Saltspring) between Victoria and Vancouver, BC, which isn't too far away from you. He's a 3rd generation Scots fiddler, Scottish dance band leader, composer (in traditional Scots style), expert on Scots folk songs (watch for appearance of his 'Musa Proterva'), actor in TV documentaries on Scots music, editor of a local folklore journal, etc. I'm sure you would find a visit from him very educational. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at my no-spam website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click here for homepage (= subject index) /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] playing in a Scots band
Ken Pollard wrote: A short time ago, Nigel Gatherer asked who else was playing in a Scottish band. I'm a bit reluctant to reply, but since things have been a little quiet here, maybe it would be ok. We have a relatively new Scottish Country Dance club here in Boise, Idaho. Our instructor, Mairi, is from Scotland, as is one other member. The rest of us are Americans, many with some Scots heritage. Most, I suspect, are like myself, and can claim ancestral heritage from many countries. I started out dancing with the Scottish Country dancers, being a contra-dancer prior, and then slowly migrated to playing fiddle for the dancers -- though I'm still on the dance-demo team. We also dance to pipes, and the Boise Highlanders are a top-notch pipe drum band. Anyway, I'm busy trying to pick up the Scots accent on my fiddle. There's something about the music that just resonated with me. I've been listening to the music for several years, such as Alastair Fraser and Bonnie Rideout, in addition to several of the Cape Breton fiddlers, but have only in the past year have I dedicated my own efforts to Scottish style. And I don't have enough background to distinguish between regional styles, unless perhaps I can notice a difference in Shetland fiddling. Playing for the dancers is good discipline, and tempo is always hard work. The easy tunes seem too slow, and the hard tunes seem too fast. We had a workshop here in Boise last May, with Muriel Johnstone helping us musicians. She had many good pointers, and we wish we'd had her for a longer time -- though she started out with tunes in F and Bb, which really stretched my old-time music fingers. I recently bought Traditional Scottish Fiddling book and CD from Taigh na Teud via their website. So far, it's a decent book, though I think that my efforts over the past year help me to appreciate some of the subtleties in the book. And the CD is essential -- the notation only goes so far. We also started a Scottish Folk band to play at various ceilidh. We played at a local Farmer's Market last week, and are now gearing up for the Boise Highland Games on Sept. 20th. Anyway, that's the report from Southwestern Idaho in the USA. Ken Pollard Nampa, Idaho Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html It must be very difficult for you to discipline yourself to pursue such as Scottish music in Idaho. Idaho's natural attractions are a powerful seduction away from any intellectial pursuit at all! Idaho is one of God's great creations, from the northwest tip (Bonner's Ferry) through the Craters of the Moon to the southeast corner (or any route through Idaho), one can't go over 25 miles without running into new some magnificant wonder. [Excellent National Forest campgounds there even make it cheap to visit, and you'll usually find someone there with a guitar, and repertory of folk songs at the evening campfire. If you stopped at the reservation store, you can have buffalo steaks or hamburgers for supper. At night, with your butane lamp, it's very relaxing to lay in your sleeping bag and lull yourself to sleep perusing your copy of Gow's Complete Repository or Strathspey Reels. Practically Heaven!] Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at my no-spam website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click here for homepage (= subject index) /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Question on modes
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this the file you are referring to? I'm willing to figgure that out, but it will take some time with pencil and paper. Is there an executive summary? Bob No figuring out now. To my website I've added a compiled True Basic program that lets one select a keynote and a mode, and it will then calculate the frequencies of the 7 note just intonation scale. You can then select an option to display it with all the sharps and flats, too (for a 21 note scale), and it can also display whatever perfect major and minor chords one can get with the key-mode combination, starting on one of the notes of the 7 note scale. The basic program in ASCII is only 11 Kbytes, but True Basic adds on a lot of overhead when it's compiled so, sorry, but it adds up to about 3/4 of a megabyte. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at Bruce Olson's website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Question on modes
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this the file you are referring to? I'm willing to figgure that out, but it will take some time with pencil and paper. Is there an executive summary? Bob No summary. It's not much more than that now. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at Bruce Olson's website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Question on modes
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I understand the mechanics of modes, at least sort of. Suppose I'm playing in Dmix, on the fiddle. I know in Dmaj I would play my F# and my C# extra sharp, since they are leading tones. So getting back to Dmix, do I still play my F# extra sharp? Is the C-nat (the 7th) played sharper than normal? I suppose I have the same sort of question about other modes too, then. Is it best to think of them being in the key they are named after with accidentals? Bob Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html I think you're a mixing up key-mode with scale. The key-mode combination tells you where normal sharps and flats are, but letter-notes and any associated sharps or flats don't tell you the actual frequencies of the notes. It apears that you are aiming for a just intonation scale with your extra sharp F# and slightly sharpened C. Just intonation is a very natural scale for a violin/fiddle. Take a look at the Just Intonation file on my website and see if that answers your questions here and elsewhere about 'extra sharp' and 'extra flat'. 'extra sharp' is a factor of 81/80 or about 1 1/4 % higher than the corresponding note in Cmajor. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at Bruce Olson's website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Matt Seattle wrote: .. Rambling further.. PW mentions Owsald. There's been a bit of a renaissance and reappraisal of JO recently, with some CDs on the 'serious' end of the market. What I've heard sounds pleasant but lightweight to me, but might not be the best stuff(?). Oswald was also of course an important collector, publisher and arranger of trad tunes, and The Cal Pocket Companion was famously one of Burns' reference works. It is indeed a goldmine, with a high proportion of very choice nuggets among the mud and rocks. . Hugs to all Matt Oswald I've seen mentioned one place lately (Roger Fiske?) as the premier composer of popular tunes in England, c 1743 - c 1760. However, so many were published under a nom de plume, or other rubric, or anonymously that we're not likely to ever see anything like a complete list of his compositions. He published the original Balimona Ora, but did he also compose it? He probably composed the score for Harlequin Fortunatus, 1753, and The Haymakers dance from it appeared in several subsequent Scots tune collections. I suspect he composed The Kettle Bender (with song in Muses Delight, 1754), and The Small Pin Cushion (both in CPC), the latter of which later became (and still is) popular as Haste to the Wedding (also know as Carrickfergus from a ballad on Thurot's capture of the castle there in 1760) . His Tulip in 'Music for the Seasons' became the 'Irish' Wearing of the Green. It also seems likely that the 6/8 (and maybe the 4/4) version of St. Patrick's Day (in the morning) (in CPC) is his. That's all that come to the top of my mind at present, but I'm sure others can add more to this short list. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at Bruce Olson's website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: William Marshall: Scottish Melodies
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Ted Hastings wrote: The Fiddlecase Books edition of Marshall's Scottish Melodies was mentioned on the list recently. I managed to track down a copy at Birchwood Books. They have several other copies in stock if anyone is interested. See: www.birchwoodbooks.co.uk Thanks for this, Ted. I received my copy from Birchwood in the post yesterday, and I'm delighted. It's not the best reproduction, but it's certainly good enough for me, and it's not so easy getting Marshall's collected compositions anywhere else. He wrote a fair few jigs, didn't he? -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Note that there is a 4 page issue of Marshall's tunes that's not included in the Fiddlecase Books reprint. The copy I saw (Library of Congress) had the same title page as the original collection (1781?). Below is a list of them. These are also listed in Charles Gore's 'The Scottish Fiddle Music Index'. Contents: The Marquis of Huntly's Farewell; WMR2 1: Miss Dallas's Reel; WMR2 1: Miss Grant of Knockando's Reel; WMR2 1: Lady Anne Hope's Reel; WMR2 2: Miss Jean Stewart's Reel; WMR2 2: Miss Sally Eglinton's Reel; WMR2 2: Miss Burnet's Reel; WMR2 3: Lord Alexander Gordon's Reel; WMR2 3: Reprinted- Lord Alexr. Gordon's Reel_by Mr. Marshall; McGlashan-AMR2 38: Kiss Ketty Allan's Reel; WMR2 3: Miss Halkets Reel; WMR2 3: Miss Wedderburn's Reel; WMR2 4: Miss Ann Stewart Reel; WMR2 4: Miss Watson's Reel; WMR2 4: Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tunebook list
Carla and Bob Rogers wrote: Well, the place I've gotten the greatest number of tunes from is Jack's ABC tunefinder. As an aspiring fiddler, Scottish Fiddle Music in the 18th Century is a great book to read. I think it's out of print. It has numerous examples of tunes, supposedly generally true to the original. There was a seemingly aborted discussion about two days ago regarding The Gow Collection of Scottish Dance Music -- Allegation The music has little to do with the Gows. Rebuttal: The forward claims the tunes are largely unedited from the originals. I am very curious about this, since I bought the book based on this claim in the forward. Comments? US ISBN=0.8256.0307.2 UK ISBN=0.7119.0756.0. Now why do we need two different *international*standard* book numbers for the same book? Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html That Gow collection is missing all of the 2nd book of Strathspey Reels and one other that I can't remember at the moment, so it's 2/3 of the Strathspey Reels. It also misquotes several titles, which makes it difficult to find out if other tunes are missing, too, and there were a few I couldn't find. It contains nothing from the Complete Repository series. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tunebook list
Carla and Bob Rogers wrote: Well, the place I've gotten the greatest number of tunes from is Jack's ABC tunefinder. As an aspiring fiddler, Scottish Fiddle Music in the 18th Century is a great book to read. I think it's out of print. It has numerous examples of tunes, supposedly generally true to the original. There was a seemingly aborted discussion about two days ago regarding The Gow Collection of Scottish Dance Music -- Allegation The music has little to do with the Gows. Rebuttal: The forward claims the tunes are largely unedited from the originals. I am very curious about this, since I bought the book based on this claim in the forward. Comments? US ISBN=0.8256.0307.2 UK ISBN=0.7119.0756.0. Now why do we need two different *international*standard* book numbers for the same book? Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Sorry, that Gow collection does contain the Complete Repository. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tunebook list
Carla and Bob Rogers wrote: .. There was a seemingly aborted discussion about two days ago regarding The Gow Collection of Scottish Dance Music -- Allegation The music has little to do with the Gows. Rebuttal: The forward claims the tunes are largely unedited from the originals. I am very curious about this, .. Richard Carlin's 'The Gow Collection of Scottish Dance Music' is missing all tunes of the 2nd and 6th books of Strathspey Reels, and the 1st book of the Complete Repository. There are at least 3 tunes missing from the 1st book of Strathspey Reels, and 9 from the 4th book. That's as far as I've looked. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Scots Tunes in O'Neill's Collections (was: Music source books)
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Leslie asked: ...My library includes O'Neill's. Would anyone want to suggest some neat Scottish tunes from that book... There are many tunes of Scots origin or association which have been absorbed into the Irish tradition. You say O'Neill's - which one? Looking at Dance Music of Ireland, here's a start (an intellectual exercise). Name in O'Neill's (name of Scots original/associated tune) SINGLE JIGS Behind the Bush In the Garden (Wha'll be King But Charley?) The Runaway Jig ... -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ As one can see from the Irish tune index on my website (which started as a project of trying to find out which tunes in Scots collections were Irish) there are also lots of Irish tunes well known in Scotland. The late Breandan Breathnach in 'Folk Music and Dances of Ireland' noted that 'many of our great reels are undoubtably Scottish', and lists several by both Scots and Irish titles. Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion' book 10, has a tune called Barley Cakes, this is an English title, c 1735. (The usual Scots Barley Cakes is the English Barley Sugar.) It's better known by the later titles Behind the Bush in the Garden/ How can we abstain from Whiskey/ Wha'll be king but Charlie. Johnny McGill/The Black Rogue is called Blarney Castle in the London dance production, 'The Irish Fair', 1772, and it retained that name in some later collections (e.g., 'Riley's Flute Melodies', 1814). Old Langolee and The Star (in bk 3 of Walsh's 'Caledonian Country Dances', also called the Scheme and even 'The Irish Lilt), have also been found under the Johnny McGill title. Which, if any, were composed by Johnny McGill, town piper of Girvan? None would be my guess. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: Bonaparte's Retreat
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Yes, there are at least three tunes with that name, apparently unrelated. I have since learned that this version was popularised by Glen Campbell, but the 'original' was by Kentucky fiddle player Bill Stepp recorded in about 1937. Copeland orchestrated it. Pee Wee King and Redd Stewart (see, I knew it had a Scots connection!) rearranged the tune and wrote lyrics to it, had a hit in the late forties. In the fifties Kay Starr revived it, then Glen Campbell in the seventies. Campbell played the tune on bagpipes in his version - I'd love to hear that... -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland After listening to the tune instead of just looking at it, it's more familiar. If I remember correctly, part of Kay Starr's version (1950) went: I dreamt I held her in my arms, I told her of her many charms, I kissed her while the gypsies played The Bonaparte's Retreat. Gene Kruppa's orchestra also recorded it slightly later in 1950, Bobby Scots doing the lyrics. (Another Scots connection, if you're really that desperate for one.) Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Bonaparte's Retreat
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Each time they play it through, Bain/Cunningham play it a slightly different way - I can't decide whether they're simply making mistakes. Does anyone know the tune from another source? -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland That's an awful lot different from the tune usually called Bonaparte's Retreat. S. Bayard in 'Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife' #237, notes several versions of Bonaparte's Retreat, (in addition to the 8 he collected), the most easily found of which are in O'Neill's 'Music of Ireland', #1824, Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine, and in the Roche collection, II, #231, Bonaparte's March. Bayard takes it to be of the Gilderoy family. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tonic Sol-Fa
Nigel Gatherer wrote: John Chambers wrote: Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland writes: | My Love Is Like a Red, Red Rose | (also called Low Down In the Broom) I guess there's an official spec, but I don't know where to access it (Jack - do you know?), and there are at least a couple of biological computers which can translate to/from ABC, one of them resting on my shoulders. I hope that answers your questions. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ There's lots of tunes and information on tonic sol-fa on the internet. Use google to search on 'tonic sol fa'. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Jack Campin wrote: I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about rattlers--which are sometimes noted as retreats? Morgan's Rattler also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong. Morgan Rattler is from the 1780s, well before the retreat march was invented. I had no idea it was a genre: there is a fragmentary verse from C.K. Sharpe's manuscripts with the punchline I lathered her up with my Morgan Rattler, which kinda suggests he didn't have 3-wheelers in mind either. Where do you find these rattler tunes? === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html See Morgan Rattler and variant Jackson's Bouner Burger in the Irish tune index on my website for many copies of each. Thomas Hudson's song Morgan Rattler was written more than 40 years after the tune appeared. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Miss Gunning's Reel
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Andrew Kuntz wrote: ...Miss Gunning's was apparently written in honor of one of two sisters from Roscommon...They were the toast of London in the 1750's (which fits nicely with the tune's appearance in the Thompson collection)... Except that Bruce said There is a tune of the title Miss Gunnings in the Thompson's 1st collection of 200 country dances, (London) c 1658, reissued c 1764 and c 1780... I suspect he meant to write c 1758, reissued etc ? That would tie up all the loose ends. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Sorry for the typo. Yes, c 1758 certainly for the Thompson's 1st collection of 200 country dances. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Miss Gunning's Reel
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Andrew Kuntz wrote: Miss Gunning's Reel appears in several collections such as Vickers (1770)...The Irish collector Brendan Breathnach attributed MIss Gunnings to Marshall (who would have been only 22 when the melody appeared in Vickers)... In 'Scottish Fiddlers and their Music' (M A Alburger 1983) she says that Marshall was thirty-two when he first published his compositions. If Vickers is dated 1770 this proves your theory. I too took Breathnach's attribution as gospel, but I can't think if I've seen Marshall credited anywhere else. I'll try and look at the Thompson collection mentioned by Bruce Olson and see if it's the same tune; if it is, the mystery is irrevocably solved. Good sleuthing, Andrew! -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Miss Gunning's Reel
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Andrew Kuntz wrote: Miss Gunning's Reel appears in several collections such as Vickers (1770)...The Irish collector Brendan Breathnach attributed MIss Gunnings to Marshall (who would have been only 22 when the melody appeared in Vickers)... In 'Scottish Fiddlers and their Music' (M A Alburger 1983) she says that Marshall was thirty-two when he first published his compositions. If Vickers is dated 1770 this proves your theory. I too took Breathnach's attribution as gospel, but I can't think if I've seen Marshall credited anywhere else. I'll try and look at the Thompson collection mentioned by Bruce Olson and see if it's the same tune; if it is, the mystery is irrevocably solved. Good sleuthing, Andrew! -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/liI erred. Sorry about that last. I inadvertantly clicked on 'Send' before pasting in my note as follows:. I did copy Miss Gunnings from the c 1780 reissue of the Thompson's first collection of 200 country dances, but forgot to note that in my typed up contents list. It is definitely Miss Gunning Reel. X:1 T:Miss Gunnings S:Thompson's 1st coll'n of 200 country dances S:via c 1780 reissue of c 1758 collection L:1/8 M:C| K:A c2BA (G/A/B) ED|CEAc BE E2|c2BG G/A/B Ed|(c/d/e) EB|cAA2::\ aAaA aAA2|(G/A/B) trB2 (G/A/B) trB2|aAaA aAA2|c2BA DAA2::\ cetrfe cetrfe|fedc BE trE2|(ce)trfe cetrfe|\ fefg aAA2:|] Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Miss Gunning's Reel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bruce and Nigel -- Thanks so much for the info. I appreciate very much your diligence in tracking down the Thompson's info. as it nails the issue. Miss Gunning's was apparently written in honor of one of two sisters from Roscommon, who came from down-on-their-luck gentry but who parlayed their renowned beauty into fortunate marriages: one married an earl and became Lady Coventry, the other married a duke and became Duchess of Hamilton and Argyle. They were the toast of London in the 1750's (which fits nicely with the tune's appearance in the Thompson collection). Irish beggers would thank tippers with the phrase May the Luck of the Gunning's be with ye. Alas, beauty fades, and one of the sisters ended up poisoning herself with lead-based cosmetics applied in an ever-heavier manner. Regards, Andrew Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html In Charles Gore's 'The Scottish Fiddle Music Index' the theme code of Miss Gunning's in D. Rutherford's 1st collection of 200 country dances, c 1756, (source code R12v1) is the same as that for several copies of Miss Gunning's (Reel/Delight), as is that from the c 1780 reissue of the Thompson's 1st collection. Probably the same is Miss Gunning in J. Johnson's 6th vol. of 200 country dances, 1751. [Listed in 'National Tune Index', as is D. Rutherford's, and copied to file CNTYDAN2 on my website.] The tune is undoubtably not a composition by Wm. Marshall. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Miss Gunning's Reel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I could use some help, having reached an impasse with my own resources. Miss Gunning's Reel appears in several collections such as Vickers (1770), Aird (1782) and McGlashan (1786), and also appears in Marshall's Kinrara collection which is actually a sheet, front and back, along with the tunes Kinrara, Highland Time, Lick the Laddle Sandie and Whigs of Fife and a forgettable tune by the Duke of Gordon. The Irish collector Brendan Breathnach attributed MIss Gunnings to Marshall (who would have been only 22 when the melody appeared in Vickers). Does anyone else attribute it to Marshall? Does anyone know who might have composed the tune, if Marshall did not? Are there any occurances prior to 1770? Much thanks for your help. Regards, Andrew Kuntz There is a tune of the title Miss Gunnings in the Thompson's 1st collection of 200 country dances, (London) c 1658, reissued c 1764 and c 1780. Only the latter have I actually seen, and I didn't copy the tune there. It's also in Longman and Broderip's 2 collection, London, c 1792. You can get the scale incipt/stressed note code from Rabson and Van Winkle Keller's 'The National Tune Index', 1980 - microfiche only. (I have it, but no ready access to a microfiche reader at present) Isuspect that Miss Gunning's Reel has been mistakenly attributed to Wm. Marshal because the tune appeared on the single sheet issue with Marshall's Kinrara, c 1800. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Wake Up Call
John Chambers wrote: Just a comment from a couple of weeks back: I did take versions of the two tunes called Gramachree along to the dance event, and it was pretty much agreed that neither of these tunes was what was needed. The jig was out because the dance is a strathspey. The air was a more likely fit, since airs are sometimes used for strathspeys. But we just couldn't make it sound right. So we picked some random strathspey tunes that we knew, and the dancers seemed happy. Maybe there's a version of Gramachree that we don't know of, that would work for an air-type strathspey. The usual sources for Scottish dances seem to imply that Gramachie is a tune that everyone should know. But none of us seem to know it, and it isn't in any of our books. The dance was published by Miss Milligan (Miscellany v.2) without a tune, and she also implied that the tune was well-known. Maybe I should ask on the strathspey list, for future reference. | Looks like a minor spelling problem. According to Andrew Kuntz: | | GRAD(H) MO CROID(H)E. AKA and see The harp that once through Tara's | halls, Gramachree, Gramachree Molly, Will you go to Flanders, | Little Molly O. Irish, Air (4/4 time). D Major. Standard. AB. Roche | Collection, 1983, Vol. 1; No. 28, pg. 15. | | Recognise it now? | | Ted | | | -Original Message- | From: John Chambers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] | Sent: 28 November 2001 21:52 | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Subject: Re: [scots-l] Wake Up Call | | Nigel writes: | | I demand that: |... | | OK, you get the idea: unless this mailing list really is as dead as | | Patie Birnie's mare, let's get some action going. I've never known it | | to be as quiet as this. Me? Oh no, I've no time for such frivolities. | | Talk to me, people! | | Heh. One question that just came up here: Can I play a tune called | Gramachie? Well, no, I can't, because I can't find it anywhere. My | Tune Finder has never heard of it, and none of the pile of trad tune | books on my shelf seems to contain it. The title sounds somehow | familiar, but I can't think of how it sounds. Anyone out there know | it? Got an abc version? Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html George Ogle's song Gramachree Molly (Molly Ashtore/ As down on Banna's Banks I strayed) was apparently first published with music in 'The London Magazine', Sept., 1774 (BUCEM). Song and tune are in 'The Scots Musical Museum', I, #46, 1787, Ogle's song being the 2nd song to the tune. An ABC of the SMM tune and a copy of Will you go to Flanders from Oswalds CPC are in file S2.HTM on my website. Over a dozen early copies of the tune are listed in the Irish tune title index on my website. 'Gramachree' is corrupt Gaelic for 'love of my heart'. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Oswald's CPC
Charles Gore noted in an e-mail to me that Oswald's 'The Caledonian Pocket Companion' was to be reprinted. Can anyone tell me when, or by whom? Public transportation hasn't kept up with population growth where I live, and it's become difficult for me to consult the bound set of 12 books in the Folger Shakespeare Library. The books were collected and bound by Joseph Ritson, and subsequently passed to James Dick, who used them when editing 'The Songs of Robert Burns' and 'Notes on Scottish Songs by Robert Burns'. Book 1 of this set isn't the original John Simpson issue. John Glen, 'Early Scottish Melodies', give facsimiles of the title page and first page of music of the the two issues facing his p. 248. 28 of the 36 pages of the original issue can be found Simpson's 'The Delightful Pocket Companion for the German Flute', c 1743-5. Thanks, Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Perth
I don't know if this is an old Scots proverb or not, but I know of two cases where it's certainly true. JKGW (whom I expect will be Canada's next Nobel prize winner) grew up in Perth. After teaching in England for quite some time he married a woman physicist who also grew up in Perth. MS, living between Victoria and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, went there from Perth about 1960, with his wife, also from Perth. I asked one of my colleagues why did men from Perth always seem to marry women from Perth. I was told that it's really very simple. Only a woman from Perth knows how to live with a man from Perth. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Dunse Dings A'
Jack Campin wrote: I've seen a verse of text for "Dunse Dings A'" quoted somewhere. Does anybody have a complete-looking text for it and know where it comes from? === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Sorry, closest I can come is "Lads of Dunce" for the 2nd song in Henry Fielding's 'The Welsh Opera/ The Grub Street Opera', 1731. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Nasty old ballads
David Kilpatrick wrote: Oe'r The Castle Wall: full length CD of ballads from the Anglo-Celtic tradition of heartwarming, tragic, nasty and thoroughly vicious wee stories about lovers, murder, elopement, and the healthy couldn't-care-a-toss attitude of man towards his fellow woman... http://www.mp3.com/stations/castlewall Lo-fi play: http://chooser.mp3.com/cgi-bin/play/play.cgi/AAICQgDABG5vcm1QBQAAAFL8PwIAUQoAAABD32doOvmDm7u4AR_B08paCmcsZZU-/oer_the_castle_wall.m3u Hi-fi (128Kb modem/cable or ISDN) http://chooser.mp3.com/cgi-bin/play/play.cgi/AAIBQgDABG5vcm1QBQAAAFL8PwIAUQoAAABD32doOuiHr6l1fFYVxu.VVQbQJbw-/oer_the_castle_wall.m3u Tracklist: Blackwater Side - classic Anglo-Irish song which includes getting naked Matty Groves - classic Anglo-anywhere song, which includes getting naked Ritchie Storey - little known Scottish song which is fully clothed throughout She Moved Through The Fair - classic fake folk song, fun to ham up. Modal. Twa Corbies - dreech Scots poem set to a Breton air, strictly for the birds Annochie Gordon - great words, guaranteed to clear any pub in eight minutes The Trees They Do Grow High - from the days before the age of consent at 16 Young Waters - nasty Scots king chops head off good looking lad Jack O'Ryan - apprentice Irish fiddler nicks boss's groupie by trick. Familiar? Willie o'Winsbury - Scots king comes out of closet. Can't resist that red silk. Baron o'Brackley - wife shames husband into outnumbered fight... on purpose! - Email responses and complaints to the perpetrator: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Sent a man to your 'nasty old' collection today. His wife sings "Huntingtower" based on "Rtchie Story". His voice and his wife's don't match well, so they can't do it as a duet as Ewan MacColl and his mother (Betsy Miller) did it (Folk-Lyric LP FL 116). (MacColl did "Richie Story" on Riverside later, Washington, LP 716 (and "Lang a-growing on the followup to the 8 Child ballads record, Riverside LP 12-629= Washington 723). Jamie Moreira has just about finished the late Norman Buchan's edition of the Glenbuchat Ballads MS. (to be published in 4 vols). This seems to the the sole source for the early "Young Graigston" (Lang a-growing") Bruce Olson Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Nasty old ballads
David Kilpatrick wrote: Bruce: Jamie Moreira has just about finished the late Norman Buchan's edition of the Glenbuchat Ballads MS. (to be published in 4 vols). This seems to the the sole source for the early "Young Graigston" (Lang a-growing") I would be very interested in that - publisher, price? I am not put off by academic publishing prices as the books retain their value, so long as my chinchillas don't chew the covers the way they did one my pair of Herd volume reprints... but they make a nice audience, and dance around for fast stuff or listen carefully to quiet songs... Thanks for the referral - I see someone in New Jersay bought a copy of the CD today. David Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Don't have that information yet. Jamie Moreira hasn't said much, and that little above was a result of my question to him on another newsgroup. Will post the information as soon as I get it. Or will someone else please do it, in case I miss it the first announcement of it? Bruce Olson Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Nasty old ballads
Elheran Francis wrote: Years ago I saw a song book titled "Bawdy Songs", that was published in England. it was most either bawdy British Isles Folksongs or English Music Hall type songs. I am trying to track down a copy of it. Has anyone heard of it? Thanks, Elheran "Bawdy Songs" is pretty much a generic title. Abby Sale on this list is now a collaborator on Murray S's 'Musa Proterva' collection of Scots ones, so I'll leave comments on that large collection to him. Tony McCarthy's 'Bawdy British Folk Songs' is possibly the one you saw, or possibly it might have been George Speaight's 'Bawdy Songs of the Early Music Hall'. There are several others along the same lines (Rugby Songs, etc.) I presume you don't need reference to American collections, e.g., John Henry Johnson's 'Bawdy Ballad Lusty Lyrics' (and scholarly collections). There are quite a few songs in the Scarce Songs 1 and 2 files on my website (including an early 17th century Scots one and some from the Merry Muses) that aren't for children (who, I don't think, can understand them anyhow). Bruce Olson Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Jack or other net experts: help!
David Kilpatrick wrote: This is an appeal to anyone with internet know-how. In the last few days, blank subjectless message from many different people whose email addresses start 'david@' have been arriving. Now I find that other people (same criterion) have been getting blank subjectless message from me. These originate at times when my computer is not connected, so it is not a virus on my system, and presumably not a virus on theirs. A few weeks ago a spambot mailed a huge list - any address beginning 'david@' and I notice the same spambot also mailed just about every other possible name or address configuration. Anyone have any idea how a system, somewhere, can be sending blank emails 'to and from' addresses on a list which it holds, and why on earth it would do so? And how it can be stopped, as the messages seem to come from individuals but do not? I find it worrying that messages - even blanks - can be sent which appear to originate from me. David Kilpatrick A guess, perhaps wild. Another newsgroup had problems from Microsoft Outlook Express who's initial default option is to send text as Rich Text (html) and a copy in plain ASCII. Some email reading software didn't know what to do with 2 formats in the same message, and simply stopped after the header, so no message was recieved. Netscape had no problem with this, but if someone inadvertantly got a third or different format in the message, probably common software would also be at a loss as to how to interpret it, and again all would be lost. One way of checking that you got a blank message is to copy all of it to a named file, and look at it with a word processor. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Ahoy! Gie me aw yer siller pal or A'll chib ye!
Ian Adkins wrote: Hey hoch fowk, Now I've been with this list for almost three years now, I think we've all gotten to know each other real well. What most of you don't know is that I have a secret, hidden desire to become a sea captain. Maybe a commodore too. And I'm hoping all of you can help me. I make okay money working for a university (just started in fact), and me and Toby do a good business designing hosting websites on the side. But let's face it, it ain't enough to buy a big sea-going ship. Preferrably with a few 40mm guns an torpedo tubes fore and aft. Maybe we can do this like a charity! Raise a cool million USD to build a ship on the Clyde for auld lang syne. Come on, what's a million to a affluent bunch like you? Help me and a few old welders in bonnie Glesgatoun! Write it off as a charitable contribution afterward! Let me know what all of you think. Top contributors can come along on a cargo run or two, maybe fish for shark and tuna, put a few holes in the bow of an Iraqi oil tanker. Exciting stuff. Yers aye, Ian J. L. Adkins Aspiring sea captain and commodore Niagara Falls, N.Y. P.S., personal cheques and bank drafts are fine! == IAN J. L. ADKINS - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- "They racin doos is sae fast aw th passenger doos deed o whiplash! Nae, reallie." -- The Angry Scotsmen's Internet Asylum http://www.cyberhub.co.uk -- Blackmill Networks, Limited http://www.blackmill.net == Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html You may perhaps find some interest in the humorous adventures of Commodore Gale in the 18th century, told in a song of that title. It's in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website. Tune - Granny wale [Grainne Mhaol, Granuaile = Grace O'Malley], known earlier, but not found until later than the song of the Commodore. There's an ABC of it. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
John Erdman wrote: FWIW - The tune you provided below is not the same as the version provided in any of the Lomax references I have. The same tune, of course, but your's in more "musically complex" than either of the Lomax's. Phillips Barry in BFSSNE, 1934, misquoted the title of "The Streets of Laredo" in Carl Sandburg's 'The American Songbag', 1927, p. 263, as "The Cowboy's Lament", so I overlooked that tune as stemming from "The Unfortunate Rake". According to Barry two other early American tunes stemming from it are "St. James Hospital" (A and B) in Sharp and Karpeles 'English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians'. Other early ones are in the Journal of American Folklore. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
John Erdman wrote: FWIW - The tune you provided below is not the same as the version provided in any of the Lomax references I have. The same tune, of course, but your's in more "musically complex" than either of the Lomax's. John X:01 T:Streets of Laredo B: Z: M:3/4 L:1/8 K:G D|d4 c B|c2 d3 c |B2 A2 G2 |F2 D3 D | G4 F G | A2 B3 c | B2 A2 G2 | A4 D2 | d2 ed cB | c2 d3 c | B2 A2 G2 | F2 D2 D2 | G4 F G | A2 d3 c | B2 G2 A2 | G4 |] -- 90 Trefethen Ave Peaks Island, ME 04108 Tel 207-766-5797 Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html There's a traditional version of "Streets of Laredo" collected in 1960 on the web in the Max Hunter collection that one can play if your Real Audio software will work on the web (mine won't). Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
Abby Sale wrote: On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:00:41 -0500, Bruce Olson wrote: The Library of Congress has 'Crosby's Irish Musical Repository', 1808, which contain the tune "The Unfortunate Rake", and is tha source of the Bruce, Is this online? I don't see it in the American Memory Collection choices. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- - I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida Boycott South Carolina! http://www.naacp.org/communications/press_releases/SCEconomic2.asp Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Not that I know of. Bruce O. Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/23/01 1:21:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed. Maybe the best idea is to call it "The Bard of Omagh", and note in the text that it's a variant of the earlier tune "The Unfortunate Rake" and the later American ballad "The Streets of Laredo". I certainly could do this, and that's my line of reasoning for using the "Unfortunate Rake". But, I've got the same problem with "The Bard" as I do with "The Rake": finding a copy of it with a pre-1927 date! I have a book here that claims the Bard was written in 1801 by Thomas Campbell, but I need some kind of "proof" of that. Even if it's a facsimile re-print of an old book containing that title, melody, and I'll take whatever lyrics I can find at this point! I had great success at the Library of Congress with some of the tunes I chose to use. I actually held in my hands broadsides from circa 1800 for some of them. For those, no one had better dare to claim I violated copyright! It was interesting to see how the words for some of these tunes have changed over the last two centuries. I used the older lyrics, for very obvious reasons! So, anyway: if I get stuck for the Rake, does anyone know where I can find an old copy of "The Bard of Armagh"? --Cynthia Cathcart Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html The Library of Congress has 'Crosby's Irish Musical Repository', 1808, which contain the tune "The Unfortunate Rake", and is tha source of the ABC of the tune as T060 in file T1.HTM on my website. Smollet Holden gave a version with slightly different timing about 2 years earlier. Both can be found in 'Sources of Irish Music', 1998. No early 19th century copy of the ballad is known, and the earliest extant version seems to be "The Buck's Elegy" reprinted from the Madden collection in Holloway and Black's 'Later English Broadside Ballads.' Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Stressed note coding
Sorry, I goofed in my last posting. "The wawking of the Faulds", #6 in vol. 2 of 'Orpheus Caldedonius', 1733, is scored as G dorian rather than G minor. The single flat on the key signature doesn't really make any difference because there isn't any B in the tune. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Stressed note coding
I've put a first version of an ABC player, ABZWEB1.EXE, on my website. It will play in 12 tone equal temperament or extended diatonic (21 note just intonation scale). It's still a bit crude, and there may be a few 'bugs' left in it. It doesn't handle bagpipe notation (because I don't know it), and it doesn't do Parts:, and it won't do double flats or double sharps. That last is trivial in 12 tone equal temperament, but takes 14 more notes in just intonation. It's not hard to do, but I've never run across any double sharps or flats in the old popular tunes and traditional tunes I'm interested in, and double flats and double sharps don't seem to be worth the effort. [You can, however, flatten a note that's already flatted on the key signature, or sharpen one already sharped on the key signature.] I've added an optional J:specification for what's on the key signature. With 3[ or ?]# (or ^), or 5[ or ?]b (or_), or 0 (for no sharps or flats), it will use this and the keynote in the K:specifcation to determine the scoring mode. If you add the keynote you want after the number of sharps or flats (or 0) in the J:specification then it will use that as the keynote, determine the scoring mode from these, and completely supersede the K:specification. [The K:specification will be processed and displayed, but nothing of it will be used.] The reason for the program was to try stressed note-keynote-mode coding, and calculating the mode number from an ABC of the tune (see file CODEMETHD.TXT) and I think it will do that for over 98% of all old popular and and folk tunes correctly, but I can't guarantee it will work for all tunes. I haven't figured out what to do about coding circular modes yet, so I just note them as circular and give the final note they actually end on. The program will not work if the 8 stressed notes require one to go past a change of key or timing, and it's not yet set up to handle many exotic timings [Percy Grainger's tune for "Lord Melbourne" in JFSS #12, 1908, is in mixed timing of 3/16, 5/16, 7/16, 8/16, 2/8, 3/8, 5/8, 6/8, 7/8, 8/8, 9/8, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, and 6/4 time. He has elsewhere has 4/8, 11/16, 12/16, doublets, triplets with rests in them, and some other exotics.] 5/4 is the only exotic one my program will handle as yet, and I'm not certain that taking whats in the 1st and 4th quarter note positions as the stressed note will work for all 5/4 tunes. [It's said to be common in Southeast England for traditional singers to hold the first note of 4/4 time so as to stretch the tune to 5/4, and in a region of the Southeast USA it's common for singers to hold on both the 1st and 3rd in 4/4 time to stretch it to 6/4.] Minor successes, "Dusty Miller" in 3/2, 3/4 and 6/4 all have the same code and mode. "The wawking of the Faulds", #6 in volume 2 of 'Orpheus Caledonius',1733, is scored as G minor in C| time, and the flute score in the Appendix is A dorian in C time. Both code as pi3 (pentatonic) with the same stressed note code. There are several others, but this has already gotten longer than I had hoped for. The program requires the file MODETABL.TEXT, and XNME420.DLL which are already on my website. There are 180 modes in the mode table ranging from 3 to 11 note scales, but you may run across some I haven't seen, and you'll get a blank for mode designation. Please let me know if you have problems with it. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] auld lang syne uploads
Rob MacKillop wrote: OK. I've uploaded the earliest known version of Auld Lang Syne, from the Balcarres MS c.1695-1700 as a straight transcription, but also as a basic guitar arrangement in DADGAD tuning. I have also uploaded both the versions in the Scots Musical Museum (numbers 25 and 413) for comparison. And also 'Hallow my Fancy' ( for Bruce), and some others from various Scottish lute manuscripts. Rob, Many thanks for the tune "Hallow my fancie" from the Balcarres lute MS. It fits the verses in the Percy folio manuscript beautifully. Where can I find directions for translating the tablature? There are some others I'd like to see translated. "Come hither, my bony bird chuck" might just be "Come hither my own sweet duck". In Simpson's 'The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music' there two tunes given under this latter title, but the evidence is for either being the correct tune is very weak. Bruce Olson Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: scots-l-digest V1 #351
David Kilpatrick wrote: Bruce Olson wrote... I see we have Charles Kilpatrick Sharpe, Sir Cuthbert Sharp and Cecil Sharp to straighten out. There goes my name again... Bruce rightly corrects Nicholas B on the C Sharpe mis-criticism, but he's slipped a Kilpatrick in there instead of a Kirkpatrick. My Christmas card mis-addressing count is currently about 9:1 ... David Kilpatrick I was amazed. I've been reading it wrong for many years. Bruce Olson (not Olsen, but I've gotten used to that, too) Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: scots-l-digest V1 #351
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 17/12/00 8:33:10 pm, writes: C sharpe is the bloke wot collected Scottish ballads. Oh dear! No "e" for C Sharp, and he never collected Scottish Ballads, but Confined his collecting to the south of England (mostly Somerset) and the southern Appalachians:-) He was, however, in touch with Greig and Duncan at the time when they were collecting in Aberdeenshire. Nicolas B., Lanark, Scotland. I see we have Charles Kilpatrick Sharpe, Sir Cuthbert Sharp and Cecil Sharp to straighten out. I don't really know if C. K. did field collecting of ballads himself, or if he got texts from others. Jack Campin might be able to tell us some things about them from his music. Where did the tune for "Annie Laurie" come from? Sir Cuthbert Sharp edited 'The Bishopric Garland', 1834 (modeled in Ritson's earlier one.) Cecil Sharp was an English collector of folk songs. The contents of all of his books and manuscripts are listed in Steve Roud's folksong index (as are all of the songs in the 1st 7 volumes of 'The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection'). Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] auld sang line\Rory Dall
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First "Rory Dall" is said to mean "Blind Rory", and was a generic term for a blind Harper and doesn't point to anyone in particular. For the harpers I know (including folks like Alison Bill), we recognize two Rory Dall's: The Irish one (O'Cathain) and the Scottish one (Morison, Macleod's harper). We also understand that they got confused, since they were both "Rory" and both blind. I haven't heard that "Rory Dall" was used to describe ANY blind harper though. Not to sound rude, and with respect: what source do you have for that? Because if that is true, I'd like to know! Thank you! --Cynthia Cathcart I think I have something more definite, and much more recent than the following, but haven't been able to relocate it yet. I'll pass it along if I can find it. O'Neill's 'Irish Minstrels and Musicians' p. 60, of Rory Dall O'Cahan/ O Cathain/ O'Caghan/ O'Kane says: "Ruaidri, or Rory, born in 1646 [1546?], was nicknamed Dall or blind, after losing his eyesight, it being a term commonly applied to those similarly afflicted." [Someone may have read more into this statement than is warranted.] Incidently, Donal O'Sullivan says in his 'Carolan' I, p. 17, that the information known about Rory Dall O Cathain is given in his 'Bunting Collection', Part IV, p. 42-9. He then goes on to give about a page on him, II, p. 160. Irish by birth, but evidently spent much of his life, and died, in Scotland. Said to have played to James VI of Scotland. Attributed to him while in Scotland are- Da Mihi Manum, Port Athol, and Port Gordon. O'Neill, in the work cited above, adds (from Bruce Armstrong's 'The Irish Harp') Lude's Supper, Rorie Dall's Sisters Lament, Port Lennox, and The Terror of Death. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] auld sang line\Rory Dall
Rob MacKillop wrote: Attributed to him while in Scotland are- Da Mihi Manum, I am sure you must know, but I mention it just in case you don't, Da Mihi Manum appears in both the Wemyss c.1640 and Balcarres c.1695 manuscripts. Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.robmackillop,com Thanks Rob, I didn't know about either. I only have a partial listing of contents of the Balcarres MS, and nothing for Weymss. Port Athol is also in Balcarres. P.S. The song "Hallow my fancy" is in Bishop Percy's folio MS. Vol. II, p. 30 of the Hales and Furnival edition, 1868. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] auld sang line\Rory Dall
Bruce Olson wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/16/00 5:22:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I shall also play the original version of Ae Fond Kiss which James Oswald wrote and described as being written by Rorie Dall Rorie Dall, as in Macleod's harper? Please, where might this harper find a copy of it? --Cynthia Cathcart Clairsaich, First "Rory Dall" is said to mean "Blind Rory", and was a generic term for a blind Harper and doesn't point to anyone in particular. Since I've not yet found any documentation to back up this statement, it is with some embarrassment that I withdraw it. Bruce Olson Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] auld sang line\Rory Dall
Rob MacKillop wrote: The Straloch version and Oswald version are two entirely different pieces with no connection whatsoever. I recorded the Straloch ports - 5 of them - on 'Flowers of the Forest'. Oswald must have heard of an old piece, thought lost, and tried to summon it out of the 'air', so to speak. For a harp player, playing both pieces back to back would be fun. Somewhere at the back of my mind I remember Bill Taylor talking about two Rorie Dall's, one a Morrison, I forget the other. Can anyone clear this up? Great website, Bruce. I have transcribed 'Hallow My Fancy' and will put it on my website soon, along with a few versions of Auld Lang Syne. Rob Thanks for "Hallow my Fancy". I'll be looking forward to seeing it, and if the songs I have to the tune will fit it. They're all English, though. Sorry, I didn't read the entry in my own Scots tune index, where it's plainly noted the Straloch and Oswald's piece are different. David Johnson, 'Scottish Fiddle Music', (#22) 2nd ed., 1997 gives Oswald's tune from his 'Collection of Scot's Tunes with Variations' [p. 30, "A Highland Port by Rory Dall", copy in Library of Congress], with Johnson's title from CPC, bk. viii (c 1756). On p. 64 he suggested Scots Rory Dall Morison or Irish Rory Dall O Cathain as composer, but added: "However, the piece is almost certainly all Oswald's own work." [Estimated dates for Oswald's 'Collection of Scots tunes with Variations' that I've seen range from 1755 to 1765. There are 37 tunes plus a 'Giga' in this. BUCEM calls Oswald's 'A Collection of 43 Scots Tunes with Variations' another issue of this, but the number of tunes and their estimated date of c 1790 make no sense. Needless to say, I've never seen this latter.] John Glen, 'Early Scottish Melodies', (SMM #347- "Ae fond kiss") says the tune was called "Rosey Doll" in Walsh's 'Country Dances Selected', (1760) but this is almost surely later than Oswald's CPC publication of it. Johnson says Scots Morison worked in the Highlands in the early 18th century, and Irish O'Cathain visited Scotland in the early 17th century. Edw. Bunting, in his 1840 Irish collection, took Morison and O'Cahan to be the same person. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] auld sang line
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was at the Library of Congress yesterday searching for song histories. I found a book of reproductions of autograph manuscripts. Just letters, inscriptions, notes, things like that, from people like the Venerable Bede, John Locke, Geoffrey Chaucer, and so on. The contents were completely off my research path, but it was so interesting a book that I stopped to take a look through it. In one of those incredible circumstances where the resource comes to the researcher, I found in this book a letter of Robert Burns'. And the letter was about Auld Lang Syne! Just days before he died, Burns wrote to George Thomson, who was in the process of editing his book of "Scotish Airs", the following: "One Song more, I have done. - Auld lang syne - The air is but mediocre; but the following song, the old Song of the olden times, which has never been in print, not even in manuscript, untill I took it down from an old man's Singing; is enough to recommend any air-" And then he goes on to write out the poem. It's very difficult to read and I haven't transcribed it yet, though I intend to, and then compare it to what's in the SMM. (Lucky the Library lets you xerox stuff.) There was some commentary to the letter, which clung to the belief that Burns wrote the song and was just too modest to admit it. I think that's a long shot: it seems to me that the simplest explanation is most often the correct one: Burns was telling the truth, and indeed took it down from an old man's singing. --Cynthia Cathcart Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html James Dick in 'The Songs of Robert Burns', p. 434, quotes the letter to Thomson as above, and dates it as September, 1793. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] auld sang line
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . And the letter was about Auld Lang Syne! Just days before he died, Burns wrote to George Thomson, "One Song more, I have done. - Auld lang syne - The air is but mediocre; but the following song, the old Song of the olden times, which has never been in print, not even in manuscript, untill I took it down from an old man's Singing; is enough to recommend any air-" in the SMM. (Lucky the Library lets you xerox stuff.) Not 18th and 19th century stuff in the music section (where they have a lot of 18th century Scots music very poorly cataloged). [Performing Arts Reading Room]. --Cynthia Cathcart Davidson Cook's article in 'Annual Burns Chronicle Club Directory', Jan. 1922 (reprinted with Dick's 'Songs of Robert Burns' and 'Notes on Scottish Songs' in 1962) contains a facsimile of the song from a copy in the Interleaved Scots Musical Museum' in Burns' hand. In that the heading is shorter than the heading in the letter to Thomson, and is as follows: "The original by much the best set of the words of this Song is as follows". As to whether Burns actually wrote any of the song, we'd have to compare that in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #413 (where there is no claim that Burns wrote it or that it was old), that in the Interleaved SMM, that in the letter to Thomson, and that which Thomson published, and see where they differ. I've long been a doubter that much of any of these is by Burns, but haven't done the comparison. [James Dick reprints the text published by Thompson, so the version I'm missing is that in the letter to Thomson.] Old "Auld Lang Syne": That which Wm. Motherwell printed from a broadside of c 1700 in 'The Paisley Magazine', p. 377, 1828, (6 verses of 8 lines) is given in the Scarce Songs 2 file on my website. I one saw, but didn't copy the text in Watson's 'A Choice Collection of Comic and Serious Scots Poems', III, p, 71, 1711, and this is apparently the same, but with a second part of four additional verses. The tune is, besides in 'Balcarres', in Playford's 'A Collection Original Scots Tunes', 1700, and the Sinkler MS, 1710. [Richard Darsie published 'The Balcarres Lute Manuscript: Selected Pieces' (in tablature) in 1997, but "Auld Lang Syne" wasn't among the tunes given. [The ones given are noted in the SCOTMS file on my website.] This seems to have been supplanted by a song in Allan Ramsay's 'Scots Songs', 1720. It is this song that appears later as "Auld Lang Syne". It is with the tune and called 'Auld Lang Syne' in both editions of 'Orpheus Caledonius', c 1725 and 1733, and also with the tune, and called 'The Soldier's Welcome Home' in Walsh's 'The British Musical Miscellany', III, n.d. (1735). It's also #25 in 'The Scots Musical Museum'. [Partly from this and partly from another (not old) version is the one termed 'original' in the Digital Tradition database, file AULDLNG3] [Rob, how about translating the "Hallow my Fancy" tune into normal music notation? I can't translate the tablature, and I need the tune for the song.] Bruce Olson Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] familiar tunes
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/4/00 4:32:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "The Blue Bell of Scotland", Hi Jack, I'm putting this tune in a book I'm working on for beginner wire harpers. I'm having a bit of a time finding non-conflicting information on it. Just where did this tune come from? Anyone know? I'd sure appreciate it if someone could help me and tell me of any sources for it. I'm trying to include something factual about each piece in the book, to give some idea of what the tunes are about (besides just providing lyrics). THANK YOU! --Cynthia Cathcart Joseph Ritson gave 'The New Highland Laddie' in 'The North Country Chorister', with the apphended note that 'This song has been lately introduced upon the stage by Mrs Jordan, who knew neither the words, nor the tune.' According to Helen Kendrick Johnson, 'Our Familiar Songs and Those Who Made Them', 1881, the song Ritson gave was by Annie McVicar (later Mrs. Grant), 1799, and the song was altered by Mrs. Jordan, who composed her own tune for it as her "The Blue Bells of Scotland'. [The 'Blue Bell' was the name of an inn in the song given by Ritson.] In the Scarce Songs 2 file on my website I've proposed a derivation of "The Blue Bells of Scotland" from earlier Scots songs, giving the relevant texts, but I have no tune for the one from the Mansfield/ St. Clair MS, or for that given by Ritson. See "Bonny Dundee". Comments, pro or con, would be appreciated. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
