Re: [spectre] Antw: Re: on Hungary

[Alexander Schikowski]

Dear all,

for us westerners it is hard, if not impossible to understand the atmosphere 
that rules in Hungary, and penetrates every day life from work, school, art to 
friends and family and contaminates these. I saw friendships and families part 
because of quarrels on political believes.

In my opinion Janos´ link does not so much reflect on the Syria issue, but more 
on the sad fact, that
government misuses power to establish an „illiberate democracy“ (as Orbán 
calles it) through silencing other opinions and increasing own power and wealth.

We Easterners imagine, at least we like to believe, that in the western 
societies, lets stick to the formerly mentioned ones: Germany and UK -  freedom 
of speech, (nearly) independent media (from right wing to left wing media which 
can be purchased in the whole country), (nearly) independent jurisdiction, 
(nearly) independent educationally system (including art academies), (nearly) 
independent science funding system (including the funding of art), independent, 
does exist, is accepted, appreciated and lived by a majority of citizens.

This is not the case in Hungary. Andreas is right that people voted for Orbán, 
doing so the third time. It is true that they want him for leader and a 
majority does not care about human right and democratic achievements. But it is 
also true that there is no criticism to be reached if you do not search the 
depth of the internet. And people do not want to hear about and do not believe 
in corruption and manipulating public opinion. Orbán sculptures his folk.



My aim with this mail is to try to give you a slight taste of this atmosphere 
and maybe you get a feeling of it and want to believe that this is the tip of 
the iceberg.

-
journalists lying to you because Orbán puts them under pressure.
(imagine your journalists producing lies, because the government forces them)

-
out of a number of 5 newspapers in total, one oppositional newspaper (was) 
ceased away last year from one day to the other (imagine FAZ being shut down in 
one day)

-
one oppositional newspaper and one independent one ceased away these days.
leaving a total of one oppositional printed newspaper
(imagine two other newspapers shut down, try to imagine the relation to 
existing newspapers)

-
Members of opposition parties are given 5 minutes TV-time in public TV in 4 
years.
(imagine SPD politician Martin Schulz speaking 5 minutes in a total of 4 years 
in ZDF and ARD together, imagine Nigel Farage having a total speech time of 5 
minutes in 4 years in public TV)

-
temporarily settling approximately 10.000 Hungarians from Ukraine to Hungary - 
for election, guess who they voted for?

-
Orbán gave the right to vote to rumanian citizens of Hungarian descent, guess 
who they voted for?

- 
Orbán redesigned the electoral districts. Redesigned the system, in this 
election 48% of the votes was enough for 66% of parliament seats. Even more, 
votes for a winning mandate, which are over the limit of votes necessary to win 
this mandate are put to the nationalwide list of the party.

-
people working in „unemployment avoiding programes of the state“ threatened to 
be kicked out of these programes if not voting for Orbán, allegedly officials 
are frightened as well

-
In his latest facebook advertising video Orbán disgraces a Constitutional Court 
judge three times in his presence to have fined him (Orbán had to pay a fine of 
350.000 HUF because he campaigned with a video where kindergarden kids 
appeared) 
(Imagine Theresa May insulting a Constitutional Court judge three times and 
posting that video on Facebook)

-
Orbáns son in law wins several state tender offers (EU-money), also Orbáns 
friend from school times, mayor of Orbáns village of birth, Lörinc Mészáros, 
wins several state tender offers. A former heating contractor is now owner of a 
bunch of firms, including hotels, farms and media and a billionaire.
In this village of birth, a stadium (soccer) has been built, a soccer academy 
being funded, small railway and airport have been built.

- 
architects do not participate in tenders anymore, not because the result is 
pre-decided, but because 
there are no tenders made public.

-
János Lázár (MP, head of the prime ministers office) producing a video in 
Vienna, taping „dirt, refugees, lack of public safety, and not meeting anyone 
who speaks German“. Message: This is Hungarys fate, igf you vote for the 
opposition. Video published on facebook.
(imagine Boris Johnson having himself filmed walking around in Paris and 
talking about the dirt, refugees, lack of public safety and not meeting anyone 
who speaks French) 

-
Orbán mentioned in his Good Friday speech a list of 2000 personalities of 
public life, that need to be "practiced revenge on“, because they are against 
him. They would be „soldiers of George Soros“ (Soros is believed to manipulate 
the EU to settle one million migrants a year in the territory of the Union)
A week later these people are 

Re: [spectre] Antw: Re: on Hungary

[Andreas Broeckmann]

Am 13.04.18 um 12:30 schrieb heath bunting:

here is a question

what would the policies of a non-racist, non-corrupt, but non-imperial
nation state government in central europe look like: especially concerning
the syrian refugee crisis ?

bearing in mind that such a government has to be popular with its citizens
and be working for the citizens best interests


heath, i take it that in your scenario any moral (or ethical) concerns 
that are not "popular" with "citizens" would rank low?


how would you define "the citizens best interests"?

and in that scenario, how would you evaluate those phonecalls dictating 
to journalists which scare-messages to put in the newspaper (see janos' 
msg which started this thread)?


yours faithfully,
-a
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Re: [spectre] Antw: Re: on Hungary

[Hanns Holger Rutz]

statistics - so sweet. personally, I am very happy that the government
spends more on humanitarian needs than weapons. anything else would be
highly worrying.

three more random links. as y'all love numbers:

https://www.helsinki.hu/wp-content/uploads/HHC-Hungary-asylum-figures-1-January-2018.pdf

(1216 of 9797561 equals 0.12 permille)

numbers versus feelings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhJWusyj4I

on the conspiracy of media and hate speech:

https://elpais.com/internacional/2018/04/12/actualidad/1523553344_423934.html

have a nice day, .h..h.



On 13/04/18 12:23, Oliver Grau wrote:
> Heath,
> 
> you are right. 
> 
> German taxpayers now come up with 30-50 Bio. Euro per year for war
> refugees (and tolerated illegal migrants from many countries), which is
> more then the total defence budget (!) or 2-3 times what the state
> invests for education, research and innovation..
> https://www.bundeshaushalt-info.de/#/2017/soll/ausgaben/einzelplan.html
> 
> Those regime change policies / arab spring movement-wars in Irak,
> Libya, Syria.. were started by the US, UK and their allies, like Saudi
> Arabia. 
> Europe should not support those covert war forms. 
> But politicians like Merkel first deliver weapons and then kill the
> German welfare state producing right wing parties in Germany and in
> other european states.  
> 
> regards,
> Oliver
> 
> 
> 
> 
 heath bunting  13.04.2018 12:04 >>>
> here in the United Kingdom (UK) [the key partner in the United States
> of 
> America Empire (USAE)], its seems unfair to expect the Hungarian people
> to 
> solve the Syrian refugee crisis, which has been caused by the actions
> of 
> the USAE, while the Hungarian people have had no material benefits from
> 
> these conquests
> 
> the UK has a long history of imperialism and dealing with both the 
> benefits and negative effects
> 
> on the other hand, i don't see Hungary in this mode
> 
> labelling non-imperial nation states as racist or corrupt instead of 
> attacking the much larger organised criminal network of the USAE seems
> dis-proportionate
> 
> the same goes for expecting Swedish people to integrate 100,000s of
> north 
> Africans - its wrong to denounce them as racist
> 
> 
> perhaps of interest
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-13/myth-european-democracy-shocking-revelation
> 
> 
> but i would be concentrating on this today
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-13/taking-world-brink-annihilation
> 
> 
> 
> hope all is well
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2018, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:
> 
>> janos,
>>
>> it is weird to read this, but isn't it clear that these things are
> happening? 
>> and isn't the really worrying thing that hungarians have voted for
> fidesz 
>> (party, leader, and candidates) despite the likelihood of this kind
> of 
>> manipulation of public opinion?
>>
>> i don't want to sound fatalistic, but the worrying thing is that
> while 
>> telling the truth is still important, it does not seem to make much
> of a 
>> difference...
>>
>> ok, yes, we have to keep on telling the truth, searching, telling...
>>
>> excuse the fatalistic glitch.
>>
>> regards,
>> -a
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 13.04.18 um 11:29 schrieb János Sugár:
>>> *Hungarian journalists admit role in forging anti-migrant
> 'atmosphere of
>>> fear'*
>>> /Employees of state TV network describe how channels pumped out
>>> pro-government messaging ahead of Victor Orbán's election victory
> this 
>>> week/
>>> /.../
>>> The journalists believe the anti-migrant messages often come
> directly
>>> from the government. People who work on stories directly involving
> Orbán
>>> receive a list of keywords to use. "Sometimes the editor will come
> into
>>> the office on the phone and dictate a whole story to us, word for
> word.
>>> We do not know who is on the other end of the phone," said one.
>>> /.../
>>>
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/13/hungary-journalists-state-tv-network-migrants-viktor-orban-government
> 
>>>
>>>
>>> __
>>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
>>> Info, archive and help:
>>> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre 
>>>
>> __
>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
>> Info, archive and help:
>> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre 
>>
> __
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> 



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Re: [spectre] Antw: Re: on Hungary

[heath bunting]

here is a question

what would the policies of a non-racist, non-corrupt, but non-imperial 
nation state government in central europe look like: especially concerning

the syrian refugee crisis ?

bearing in mind that such a government has to be popular with its citizens
and be working for the citizens best interests



On Fri, 13 Apr 2018, Oliver Grau wrote:


Heath,

you are right.

German taxpayers now come up with 30-50 Bio. Euro per year for war
refugees (and tolerated illegal migrants from many countries), which is
more then the total defence budget (!) or 2-3 times what the state
invests for education, research and innovation..
https://www.bundeshaushalt-info.de/#/2017/soll/ausgaben/einzelplan.html

Those regime change policies / arab spring movement-wars in Irak,
Libya, Syria.. were started by the US, UK and their allies, like Saudi
Arabia.
Europe should not support those covert war forms.
But politicians like Merkel first deliver weapons and then kill the
German welfare state producing right wing parties in Germany and in
other european states.

regards,
Oliver





heath bunting  13.04.2018 12:04 >>>

here in the United Kingdom (UK) [the key partner in the United States
of
America Empire (USAE)], its seems unfair to expect the Hungarian people
to
solve the Syrian refugee crisis, which has been caused by the actions
of
the USAE, while the Hungarian people have had no material benefits from

these conquests

the UK has a long history of imperialism and dealing with both the
benefits and negative effects

on the other hand, i don't see Hungary in this mode

labelling non-imperial nation states as racist or corrupt instead of
attacking the much larger organised criminal network of the USAE seems
dis-proportionate

the same goes for expecting Swedish people to integrate 100,000s of
north
Africans - its wrong to denounce them as racist


perhaps of interest

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-13/myth-european-democracy-shocking-revelation


but i would be concentrating on this today

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-13/taking-world-brink-annihilation



hope all is well



On Fri, 13 Apr 2018, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:


janos,

it is weird to read this, but isn't it clear that these things are

happening?

and isn't the really worrying thing that hungarians have voted for

fidesz

(party, leader, and candidates) despite the likelihood of this kind

of

manipulation of public opinion?

i don't want to sound fatalistic, but the worrying thing is that

while

telling the truth is still important, it does not seem to make much

of a

difference...

ok, yes, we have to keep on telling the truth, searching, telling...

excuse the fatalistic glitch.

regards,
-a



Am 13.04.18 um 11:29 schrieb János Sugár:

*Hungarian journalists admit role in forging anti-migrant

'atmosphere of

fear'*
/Employees of state TV network describe how channels pumped out
pro-government messaging ahead of Victor Orbán's election victory

this

week/
/.../
The journalists believe the anti-migrant messages often come

directly

from the government. People who work on stories directly involving

Orbán

receive a list of keywords to use. "Sometimes the editor will come

into

the office on the phone and dictate a whole story to us, word for

word.

We do not know who is on the other end of the phone," said one.
/.../


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/13/hungary-journalists-state-tv-network-migrants-viktor-orban-government




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[spectre] Antw: Re: on Hungary

[Oliver Grau]

Heath,

you are right. 

German taxpayers now come up with 30-50 Bio. Euro per year for war
refugees (and tolerated illegal migrants from many countries), which is
more then the total defence budget (!) or 2-3 times what the state
invests for education, research and innovation..
https://www.bundeshaushalt-info.de/#/2017/soll/ausgaben/einzelplan.html

Those regime change policies / arab spring movement-wars in Irak,
Libya, Syria.. were started by the US, UK and their allies, like Saudi
Arabia. 
Europe should not support those covert war forms. 
But politicians like Merkel first deliver weapons and then kill the
German welfare state producing right wing parties in Germany and in
other european states.  

regards,
Oliver




>>> heath bunting  13.04.2018 12:04 >>>
here in the United Kingdom (UK) [the key partner in the United States
of 
America Empire (USAE)], its seems unfair to expect the Hungarian people
to 
solve the Syrian refugee crisis, which has been caused by the actions
of 
the USAE, while the Hungarian people have had no material benefits from

these conquests

the UK has a long history of imperialism and dealing with both the 
benefits and negative effects

on the other hand, i don't see Hungary in this mode

labelling non-imperial nation states as racist or corrupt instead of 
attacking the much larger organised criminal network of the USAE seems
dis-proportionate

the same goes for expecting Swedish people to integrate 100,000s of
north 
Africans - its wrong to denounce them as racist


perhaps of interest

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-13/myth-european-democracy-shocking-revelation


but i would be concentrating on this today

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-13/taking-world-brink-annihilation



hope all is well



On Fri, 13 Apr 2018, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:

> janos,
>
> it is weird to read this, but isn't it clear that these things are
happening? 
> and isn't the really worrying thing that hungarians have voted for
fidesz 
> (party, leader, and candidates) despite the likelihood of this kind
of 
> manipulation of public opinion?
>
> i don't want to sound fatalistic, but the worrying thing is that
while 
> telling the truth is still important, it does not seem to make much
of a 
> difference...
>
> ok, yes, we have to keep on telling the truth, searching, telling...
>
> excuse the fatalistic glitch.
>
> regards,
> -a
>
>
>
> Am 13.04.18 um 11:29 schrieb János Sugár:
>> *Hungarian journalists admit role in forging anti-migrant
'atmosphere of
>> fear'*
>> /Employees of state TV network describe how channels pumped out
>> pro-government messaging ahead of Victor Orbán's election victory
this 
>> week/
>> /.../
>> The journalists believe the anti-migrant messages often come
directly
>> from the government. People who work on stories directly involving
Orbán
>> receive a list of keywords to use. "Sometimes the editor will come
into
>> the office on the phone and dictate a whole story to us, word for
word.
>> We do not know who is on the other end of the phone," said one.
>> /.../
>>
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/13/hungary-journalists-state-tv-network-migrants-viktor-orban-government

>> 
>> 
>> __
>> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
>> Info, archive and help:
>> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre 
>> 
> __
> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
> Info, archive and help:
> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre 
>
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Re: [spectre] on Hungary

[heath bunting]

here in the United Kingdom (UK) [the key partner in the United States of 
America Empire (USAE)], its seems unfair to expect the Hungarian people to 
solve the Syrian refugee crisis, which has been caused by the actions of 
the USAE, while the Hungarian people have had no material benefits from 
these conquests


the UK has a long history of imperialism and dealing with both the 
benefits and negative effects


on the other hand, i don't see Hungary in this mode

labelling non-imperial nation states as racist or corrupt instead of 
attacking the much larger organised criminal network of the USAE seems

dis-proportionate

the same goes for expecting Swedish people to integrate 100,000s of north 
Africans - its wrong to denounce them as racist



perhaps of interest

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-13/myth-european-democracy-shocking-revelation

but i would be concentrating on this today

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-13/taking-world-brink-annihilation


hope all is well



On Fri, 13 Apr 2018, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:


janos,

it is weird to read this, but isn't it clear that these things are happening? 
and isn't the really worrying thing that hungarians have voted for fidesz 
(party, leader, and candidates) despite the likelihood of this kind of 
manipulation of public opinion?


i don't want to sound fatalistic, but the worrying thing is that while 
telling the truth is still important, it does not seem to make much of a 
difference...


ok, yes, we have to keep on telling the truth, searching, telling...

excuse the fatalistic glitch.

regards,
-a



Am 13.04.18 um 11:29 schrieb János Sugár:

*Hungarian journalists admit role in forging anti-migrant 'atmosphere of
fear'*
/Employees of state TV network describe how channels pumped out
pro-government messaging ahead of Victor Orbán's election victory this 
week/

/.../
The journalists believe the anti-migrant messages often come directly
from the government. People who work on stories directly involving Orbán
receive a list of keywords to use. "Sometimes the editor will come into
the office on the phone and dictate a whole story to us, word for word.
We do not know who is on the other end of the phone," said one.
/.../
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/13/hungary-journalists-state-tv-network-migrants-viktor-orban-government


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Re: [spectre] on Hungary

[Andreas Broeckmann]

janos,

it is weird to read this, but isn't it clear that these things are 
happening? and isn't the really worrying thing that hungarians have 
voted for fidesz (party, leader, and candidates) despite the likelihood 
of this kind of manipulation of public opinion?


i don't want to sound fatalistic, but the worrying thing is that while 
telling the truth is still important, it does not seem to make much of a 
difference...


ok, yes, we have to keep on telling the truth, searching, telling...

excuse the fatalistic glitch.

regards,
-a



Am 13.04.18 um 11:29 schrieb János Sugár:

*Hungarian journalists admit role in forging anti-migrant 'atmosphere of
fear'*
/Employees of state TV network describe how channels pumped out
pro-government messaging ahead of Victor Orbán's election victory this week/
/.../
The journalists believe the anti-migrant messages often come directly
from the government. People who work on stories directly involving Orbán
receive a list of keywords to use. "Sometimes the editor will come into
the office on the phone and dictate a whole story to us, word for word.
We do not know who is on the other end of the phone," said one.
/.../
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/13/hungary-journalists-state-tv-network-migrants-viktor-orban-government


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Re: [spectre] on Hungary

[János Sugár]

Title: Re:on Hungary


Hungarian journalists admit role in forging anti-migrant
'atmosphere of fear'
Employees of state TV network describe how channels pumped out
pro-government messaging ahead of Victor Orbán's election victory
this week
/.../
The journalists believe the anti-migrant messages often come
directly from the government. People who work on stories directly
involving Orbán receive a list of keywords to use. "Sometimes the
editor will come into the office on the phone and dictate a whole
story to us, word for word. We do not know who is on the other end of
the phone," said one.
/.../
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/13/hungary-journalists-state-tv-network-migrants-viktor-orban-government


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