RE: Ceiling Pockets

, September 13, 2016 1:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets That makes sense, until you start taking it to extremes. What about a 10' deep pocket under 1000 sq ft? I guess the committee had to draw a line somewhere and 3' was the line. Even th

RE: Ceiling Pockets

@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets That makes sense, until you start taking it to extremes. What about a 10' deep pocket under 1000 sq ft? I guess the committee had to draw a line somewhere and 3' was the line. Even though it is potentially a bunch of extra sprin

RE: Ceiling Pockets

Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets If I wer interpreting

Re: Ceiling Pockets

nklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org *Subject:* Re: Ceiling Pockets Skylights and _similar pockets_ not exceeding 32 sq.ft. and separated from other pockets by minimum 10 feet do not require sprinklers. I would try to use that. Tony -

RE: Ceiling Pockets

Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of T. Silva Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 12:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets Skylights and similar

Re: Ceiling Pockets

- > *From: *"Travis Mack" > > *To: *sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > *Sent: *Tuesday, September 13, 2016 9:34:20 AM > *Subject: *Re: Ceiling Pockets > > Just put a 2.8k sprinkler in the pocket. At least that minimizes the > hydraulic impa

Re: Ceiling Pockets

r 13, 2016 9:34:20 AM Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets Just put a 2.8k sprinkler in the pocket. At least that minimizes the hydraulic impact to the system. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large

Re: Ceiling Pockets

e Protection > > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] > On Behalf Of Brad Casterline > Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 5:51 PM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets > > It's all about activation

RE: Ceiling Pockets

, September 12, 2016 5:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets It's all about activation Ron/Bruce. Roland's insight as to the pass/fail criteria was a stroke of genius. I like to explain it and then Roland corrects me. So I'll forego my part and

Re: Ceiling Pockets

I also saw a test once where smaller pockets could form a heat barrier much like occurs when placing baseboard heaters under windows. Intuitively that makes no sense yet it works. In any case these small ceiling pockets stayed cool and insulated the head from activating. I dong know if that experim

Re: Ceiling Pockets

It's all about activation Ron/Bruce. Roland's insight as to the pass/fail criteria was a stroke of genius. I like to explain it and then Roland corrects me. So I'll forego my part and wait for Roland to get his ears on. Brad On Sep 12, 2016 4:41 PM, "Bruce Verhei" wrote: > Ron is briefer. > > O

Re: Ceiling Pockets

Ron is briefer. > On Sep 12, 2016, at 14:39, Bruce Verhei wrote: > > Isn't the idea of using a Volume completely different than viewing his as an > Area, such as a large sail sewing table that obstructs coverage as well as > delaying operation? > > Wasn't 1,000 cu ft a consensus guesstimate s

Re: Ceiling Pockets

Isn't the idea of using a Volume completely different than viewing his as an Area, such as a large sail sewing table that obstructs coverage as well as delaying operation? Wasn't 1,000 cu ft a consensus guesstimate saying we'd allow a space this big for heat to accumulate in before banking down

Re: Ceiling Pockets

> > >> *To: *sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> >> *Sent: *Monday, September 12, 2016 12:59:45 PM >> *Subject: *Re: Ceiling Pockets >> >> I do not think you can do what you are proposing. I think that you should >> protect the entire pocket. &

Re: Ceiling Pockets

ith the forum. > Thanks, Tony > > -- > *From: *"Greg McGahan" > *To: *sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Sent: *Monday, September 12, 2016 12:59:45 PM > *Subject: *Re: Ceiling Pockets > > I do not think you can do what you are proposing. I think that you shoul

Re: Ceiling Pockets

nt: Monday, September 12, 2016 12:59:45 PM Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets I do not think you can do what you are proposing. I think that you should protect the entire pocket. Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 85

Re: Ceiling Pockets

Silva wrote: > No to what? > Tony > > -- > *From: *"Greg McGahan" > *To: *sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Sent: *Monday, September 12, 2016 12:41:15 PM > *Subject: *Re: Ceiling Pockets > > > Ummm - I would say nobu

Re: Ceiling Pockets

I don't believe the intent is to only protect a portion of the ceiling pocket in order to reduce the volume. I believe it would be protect the entire pocket if it exceeds 1000ft³ (or doesn't meet any of the other requirements in 8.6.7.2 as you have to meet all four). Bobby Gillett *Living Water Fi

RE: Ceiling Pockets

orum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets Ummm - I would say nobut that is my personal opinion. Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC<http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:21 PM

Re: Ceiling Pockets

No to what? Tony - Original Message - From: "Greg McGahan" To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 12:41:15 PM Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets Ummm - I would say nobut that is my personal opinion. Greg McGahan Living

Re: Ceiling Pockets

Ummm - I would say nobut that is my personal opinion. Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 1:21 PM, T. Silva wrote: > -- > NFPA

RE: Ceiling Pockets

I see a Roland in your future. J. Scott Mitchell, PE Senior Fire Protection Engineer Mission Engineering CNS Y-12 | 865-576-5258 CNS PTX | 806-477-5883 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of T. Silva Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 2:21 PM To:

Re: Ceiling pockets

; > 216-570-7030 cell > > > > > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler. > org] *On Behalf Of *Ed Kramer > *Sent:* Thursday, August 04, 2016 3:13 PM > *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Subject:* RE: Ceiling pockets >

RE: Ceiling pockets

cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 3:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Ceiling pockets If you qualify, you might be able to use 8.8.7.3. Note the wo

RE: Ceiling pockets

If you qualify, you might be able to use 8.8.7.3. Note the wording ". . and similar pockets." Section 8.5.7 doesn't limit the depth to 3'. Ed Kramer Bamford Fire From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Thursday, August 0

RE: Ceiling pockets

My understanding is you would need to put sprinkler heads in the high ceiling area. My best guess as to why 3' is limit is the amount of time it takes for the heat to fill a pocket greater than 3' deep to eventually activate a sprinkler at the lower ceiling. There must have been a series of test pe

Re: ceiling pockets, part 2

AS Brad pointed out, the basis is a relative comparison of activation times. The sizes were NOT simply based on where the two times intersected (though it started there). The TC went a little conservative and reduced the submitted 12 ft pocket depth just a tad to 3 ft. Also note that starting

RE: ceiling pockets, part 2

lf Of rongreenman . Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 10:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: ceiling pockets, part 2 As suppression guys we tend to think of obstructions to spray before we consider activation. It's just natural. Whenever I have a conundrum of why o

Re: ceiling pockets, part 2

As suppression guys we tend to think of obstructions to spray before we consider activation. It's just natural. Whenever I have a conundrum of why on a rule I always ask myself what I think the reason for the rule is. Then I ask myself if my mind is not just reasoning inductively to support a predi

Re: ceiling pockets, part 2

Todd, At the core I do not believe that the intent is to consider pockets in separate rooms as adjacent when the explanations have been based on delayed activation from multiple pockets collecting heat. Or I am I misunderstanding the original pocket protection intent? Greg McGahan Living Water F

RE: ceiling pockets, part 2

NFPA 13 2002 8.6.7.2 (4) "Each unprotected ceiling pocket is separated from any adjacent unprotected ceiling pocket by a minimum 10 ft horizontal distance". 'adjacent' is the key word here Todd, and Webster's would not resolve it for you. This is a good time for you to whip out your professional

RE: Ceiling Pockets

An upside down bath tub. See also: A.3.3.4 Ceiling Pocket. It is not the intent of this definition to be applied to structural and/or framing members otherwise used to define obstructed or unobstructed construction. Ceiling pockets can be protected or unprotected. A ceiling pocket where the upper

Re: Ceiling Pockets and Horizontal Sidewalls

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Scott A Futrell wrote: > Rod, > > I know they are available on the NFPA subscription service website, I > don't know if they are available otherwise. > > Scott Futrell > > (763) 425-1001 Office > (612) 759-5556 Cell > To access RoP's and RoCs: Go to www.nfpa.or

RE: Ceiling Pockets and Horizontal Sidewalls

-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Ceiling Pockets and Horizontal Sidewalls Where does a person look to find ROC's and ROP's? Thanks. Rod at Rapid -Original Message- From: spri

RE: Ceiling Pockets and Horizontal Sidewalls

ubject: Re: Ceiling Pockets and Horizontal Sidewalls Was out last week at our convention so just getting caught-up. As you identified, the modeling did not look at sidewall sprinklers. It also did not look at EC pendent but the TC deemed them applicable. The main problem with pockets an

Re: Ceiling Pockets and Horizontal Sidewalls

Was out last week at our convention so just getting caught-up. As you identified, the modeling did not look at sidewall sprinklers. It also did not look at EC pendent but the TC deemed them applicable. The main problem with pockets and sidewall sprinklers is the base requirement for smoo

RE: Ceiling Pockets and Horizontal Sidewalls

To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling Pockets and Horizontal Sidewalls Roland, I found your article in NFPA Journal from 2004 on this subject that stated sidewall and residential sprinklers had not been addressed in the modeling, only pendents. It went on to suggest there was

RE: Ceiling Pockets and Horizontal Sidewalls

Sidewall sprinklers can be installed farther from a fire than pendents and uprights. A 20x20 pendent would be no more than 10' from a fire. A 16x20 sidewall could be 20' from a fire. There is a larger delay in response time for sidewalls due to distance from a fire. Now you want to add a ceiling

RE: ceiling pockets?

I would think that if the requirements of 8.8.7 (2002) are met, then it would be acceptable. That section does not disqualify pockets adjacent to a wall. I did a school a while back with a similar arrangement and used this as a test. At 02:01 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote: >I don't think you will f

Re: ceiling pockets?

Looking at NFPA 2007-8.6.4.1.1.3 commentary adresses changes in height and it seems the key is if the change in elevation is 36" or greater, wherein it is treated as a wall and would need protection. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire -Original Message- From: Ed Cyr To: American Fire

RE: ceiling pockets?

I don't think you will find any guidance in 13 specifically. It doesn't comply with 12" down, it doesn't comply with pocket rules. It does though comply with 8.5.7 for skylights and similar ceiling pockets. I tend to agree with you as an opinion. But the IOR would first have to agree it's simil

RE: ceiling pockets?

I'd apply applicable ceiling pocket rules and see if they meet the requirements for omission or not. Can't think of any other rules requiring anything special at this type of circumstances. And its nothing I'd lose sleep over if there weren't AS in the pockets. glc -Original Message- Fro

RE: Ceiling pockets -- special situation

Not covered by code really. IMHO I'd be fine with lower level sprinklers only. A code literalist probably wants heads in the upper citing the general spacing rule of distance below clg. and the goals of spacing for water distribution AND heat responsiveness. Plume is smaller than the width which

RE: Ceiling pockets -- special situation

Margaret, I would think your coverage is fine. Your explanation seems to satisfy the requirements for unprotected ceiling pockets if you consider all the pocket areas "one pocket" since they are interconnected. I think as long as you have proper floor coverage you can apply the vertical ceiling

Re: Ceiling Pockets

Actually you already answered the question by identifying the section number. Since 8.6 is SSU/P it applies only to that type of sprinkler. The criteria also applies to extended coverage upright and pendent since it also appears in 8.8 Roland On Jul 25, 2008, at 10:34 AM, Bryan Dann wr

RE: Ceiling Pockets

Bryan, I asked NFPA about this same issue and was told that it only applies to pendants and uprights. Dewayne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Dann Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 12:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Ce

RE: Ceiling pockets...

r pretty little wood! :) RFI Chuck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Seidel Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 11:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Ceiling pockets... My 2 cents. Put pendent sprinklers in each pock

Re: Ceiling pockets...

My 2 cents. Put pendent sprinklers in each pocket with the deflector at the wood ceiling level. (1) Probably not. There is likely a thin black fiberglass batt on the top side of the wood. Otherwise the ceiling would look bad. There will be light up there even if there are not any recessed l