Frans,
Very curious to know how you got on with the Victaulic valve w/ 1300 gallons
to make the 60 sec requirement after making the adjustments discussed (or
anywhere close). I need to do a building with 8 dry systems (new
construction) that requires all the valves at a main header. The bulk main
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'07 8.3.2 Rating and 8.3.3 Sensitivity
I can find no place where is says what if anything should be done with
different ratings in the same room (10,000 sq. ft. ish room). 8.3.3 clearly
says when QR all in compartment must be QR. But in the temperature rating
there is nothing like that.
Damien-
I'd highly recommend you:
1. Read James G's white paper Variables that affect the Performance of Dry
Pipe Systems at
http://www.tyco-fire.com/index.php?P=showid=DryPipeSystems_RevB=BK=archiv
e_news
2. Look into obtaining FDT calculation software to either prove your
systems' ability to
Anyone done some field testing out of curiosity on real systems you've
installed and compared the results of FDT vs. real world.
I did once about 6 years ago and FDT and real world were 45 sec. vs. 70 sec.
respectively. Raised questions but with a test of one no conclusions.
Haven't been
NFPA 13 2007 sets a min. temp for OH of 150'F but no maximum except to say
intermediate or high temp are both ok.
Notes: see 8.3.2.3 , 8.3.2.7 , 8.3.3.2 , A8.4 , 8.4.7.3.3
Maybe have the AHJ show where it prohibits have the two temps adjacent? Put
a heater in a 165'f protected space and you could
I did a couple of preaction systems about 3 years ago. The FDT and field
tests were within 1-2 secs if I recall correctly. I was pretty impressed.
We did have a fire pump and tank on the project, so there would not have
been any variability from a city supply.
The systems were large (+/-1200
But what happens when then software shows the system tripping in the
required amount of time...then when it comes time for final inspection
with the AHJ and it doesn't work? That could be costly mistake !?
Mike Brown
Designer
Sunland Fire Protection
1218 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
Ph.
Question is, why two different temp ratings in the same common space?
Also if this is a warehouse and it's non-conditioned, what is the max. indoor
temperature this area could experience? 165's might be a bit low?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
Don't know, many changes of occupancies/occupants over the years. Perhaps
there was a wall at some time that is gone. Perhaps the 165's were over a
combustible office that is long gone. Perhaps the original installers ran
out of 286's and didn't want to order more. Today I don't see the why as
Code is clear - FDT supersedes real life if there is a discrepancy
'02-7.2.3.3 and 11.2.3.9.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
Location: 4439
Are Sprinklers required in a Gymnasium with a deck height of 50 ft,
noncombustible construction?
--
My Thanks to You!
Ether J. Barlow
Cell 702-375-1228
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Is it in a public school?
Is the school required to have sprinklers?
Arthur Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection Design
Tiroly and Associates
3300 King Ave
Cleveland, OH 44114
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
Need more info... What code applies? What is the occupancy classification?
Is there spectator seating? What is the square footage? Occupant load? Is it
on a the floor level of exit discharge?
Reed A. Roisum, CET
Fire Protection Technician
Ulteig Engineers, Inc.
3350 38th Avenue South
I don't doubt what everyone is saying... I understand the code as Chris
stated... I'm thinking about from some of our local AHJ's perspective. I
have a feeling that some of the old school AHJ's could care less about
what the software says and are more concerned with real life results.
Mike Brown
9900 sqft 02' NFPA13, Bleachers on one side, Ground Level, OH1? Probably
about 150 people.
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Reed Roisum reed.roi...@ulteig.comwrote:
Need more info... What code applies? What is the occupancy
classification? Is there spectator seating? What is the square
Do these same AHJ's make you do a remote area density flow test, live water
on the floor? It really is the same thing.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly,
Let me clarify, I thought it was way too far off in the 1 example I was
involved with. 45 sec. calc after it repeatedly failed in the real world at
any place between 70 sec and 80 seconds. The contractor used it after the
fact when they failed the 60 second test on at least 3 occasions. Tyco
Ether,
I was referring to IBC occupancy classifications. This would most likely be an
A-4 occupancy (assuming IBC). A-4 occupancies require and automatic sprinkler
system if the fire area exceeds 12,000 sq. ft, the occupant load is over 300,
or the fire area is on a floor other than the
There was a change in the 13 ROP that addresses this issue. It points
out that even when water delivery is calculated, the acceptance test
still requires a timed delivery for future ITM. It states that if a
single outlet takes longer than 70 sec then it must be evaluated. To
be honest,
Schools tend to use gymnasiums for storage during to off season.
At 03:17 PM 6/17/2009, you wrote:
Need more info... What code applies? What is the occupancy
classification? Is there spectator seating? What is the square
footage? Occupant load? Is it on a the floor level of exit
Chris wrote:
Let me clarify, I thought it was way too far off in the 1 example I was
involved with. 45 sec. calc after it repeatedly failed in the real world
at
any place between 70 sec and 80 seconds. The contractor used it after the
fact when they failed the 60 second test on at least 3
To address Mike's concern about trip time, the QRS switch is pretty
dependable- it samples the air pressure every .1 seconds and after enough
degradation is detected 3x in a row, it trips. We input 3.5 second trip time
even tho it would be a little less since it takes less than a .5 second to
trip
Slow to respond isn't so bad.
We've been having problems with not just SLOW to respond, we're having
NOOOooo response to loss of air pressure. On a freeze up last winter, one
didn't trip and that was sort of a good thing, avoided water damage.
But when a maintenance man watches my inspector let
Very rare that a school gym won't have an occupant load of 300. I was in our
middle school gym last week with 6 or 700 friends and families of the 8th
grade class, plus the students teachers, and administrators. Our gym is less
than 10,000 sf.(Oh and did I forget the 6th 7th grade band was there
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From you description, it appears not. However, I wouldn't remove the
existing, just add to it.
At 05:38 PM 6/17/2009, you wrote:
Hello Everyone.
There is a metal building(23-0 Floor to deck), open floor plan. Standard
uprights in there now. A drop ceiling is going to be put in at 10'-0.
Nick,
It has always been my belief that unless there was some reason to remove an
existing system, I always leave it in place. Naturally there are some
instances that would require removal but many times they are fine left in
place.If you leave them, this owner may one day sell the bldg and
Thanks guys.
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Cliff Whitfield cl...@fire-design.comwrote:
Nick,
It has always been my belief that unless there was some reason to remove an
existing system, I always leave it in place. Naturally there are some
instances that would require removal but many
The need for sprinklers above the ceiling is determined by the building code
classification of the building. Even though there are no combustibles above the
ceiling now, there may be if it is a Type III B, Va or Vb. Many AHJ's require
sprinklers in a concealed space based on the building code
So what drove the change from the old way of working trip times (under
500 gal. all was good, 500-750 gals. and either 60 seconds or QOD,
over 750 gals. QOD and all is good)? was it due to systems failing due
to too long trip times or was it a way to sell an expensive computer
program? If due to
nothing changed (except for dwelling units). The 500 gal w/o QOD or
750 gal limits still apply. The timed approach is just for exceeding
them. As for dwelling units, it is not 15 sec regardless of size.
Roland
On Jun 17, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Ron Greenman wrote:
So what drove the change
As I read this it seems to say that the same rules apply as before but
to prove the system size I have to use an approved computer program.
Now I'm no math whiz but I can calculate the capacity of a bunch of
tubes (pie is square times length equals cubic X, convert X cubes to
cubic feet, convert
Could it have something to do with the fact that the multi-thousand
dollar program is UL listed and your smelly feet aren't?
At 07:19 PM 6/17/2009, you wrote:
As I read this it seems to say that the same rules apply as before but
to prove the system size I have to use an approved computer
Another part of the story. I wonder if he is taking a little heat for his
decision. My question is how can the contractor go over the local AHJ to the
state? Isnt the local AHJ the one to deal with?
Tenn. Chief Defends Code Stance
Jun 16, 2009 5:35 PM
By Janet Wilmoth
Would a fire chief
Because if its not computer-generated output, it can't be right.
glc
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman
SNIP
Time consuming but why do I need a
multi-thousand dollar program for a
George,
I believe that the 52000 sqft came from 400 sprinklers x 130 sqft per
sprinkler. The 400 someone probably pulled out of a body orifice.
If you want to pick nits, sprinklers discharge water in a circle and
we calculate them in a square. How come we don't have circular remote
areas? Do
Ron,
I haven't been following this too close (been actually doing some work) the
software is meant to calc the water delivery time not necessarily the volume
as I think you are thinking although it needs this? From what I understand
Tyco did a great job at selling this to the 13 committee. From
Jim,
Goes back to my original question of how come we need to do this now
when before all we needed to do was a little geometry to demonstrate
size in gallons, do nothing extraordinary in the system was less than
500 gallons, put on a QOD if above 750 and show 60 seconds or less or
put on a QOD
Why even have local requirements if you're always going to go with what the
state requires? The show prep meetings would be the shortest ever and the
ordinance would be one sentence long.
J. Scott Mitchell, P.E.
From: Thomas Reinhardt treinha...@wheelingil.gov
I guess im really confused on this. Who is the AHJ here? State or local?
From: J. Scott Mitchell jsmfir...@yahoo.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 6:44:57 PM
Subject: Re: I'm embarrassed to be an AHJ(The Chief's thinking
George.
Sorry for the delay in responding, but I didn't immediately get through to
the website www.stinkcad.com. I therefore had to get my IT guy over, who in
turn got on to our internet provider. They are looking into it and will
contact me when they have a solution. I'm sure it will be worth
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