RE: PODs storage again
Travis, This product commodity falls within the same parameters as boat storage - there is no prescriptive requirement to follow. In fact, NFPA has issued a statement this particular type of storage arrangement is outside the scope of NFPA-13. That being said, I have done a fair amount of research into the PODS type storage arrangements for my own education and can offer the following as a starting point (guidelines) for your consideration. (A) I spoke, at length, with Ms. Elley Klausbruckner at Klausbruckner and Assoc. regarding the general requirements for this PODS type storage and specifically about your particular type of storage arrangement. Ms. Klausbruckner is a fire protection engineer and specializes in HPR risk analysis and protection and has been involved in many warehouse storage arrangements of this PODS/Crate type storage, including the brand name PODS facilities. (B) In all cases except one, they have designed the fire sprinkler system as an Exposed, Unnexpanded, Group-A plastic commodity storage arrangement. (C) In all cases except one, they have designed utilizing ESFR sprinklers, unless the building construction prohibited the ESFR protection. In the scenario where the building construction would not allow ESFR, they designed utilizing the area/density method for the appropriate storage height. (D) In the one case where they did NOT protect as a Group-A plastic commodity the pods/crates were constructed entirely of wood. In this scenario they required a letter from the owner of the facility that the amount of Group-A plastics within the pods/crates at any time were less than 5% to 15% by weight or 5% to 25% by volume. The crate itself was treated as part of the unit load and the entire unit load was classified as a Class-IV commodity. (E) For reference, upholstered furniture is classified as a Class-IV commodity per the IFC 2303.5 (See IFC Figure 2303.7.4) (F) Tyco Fire Products, per their own internal technical document also indicates ESFR protection for PODS type storage that have plastic tops on the containers. (G) An analysis done by Rolf Jensen and Associates and written up in the 2006 Edition of Fire Protection Engineering Magazine suggests the use of ESFR sprinklers for the Group-A plastics scenario as well, but also indicates a dual design area/density as another design option. I know some of our esteemed colleagues are still not entirely comfortable with the determination of the protection schemes for this particular type of storage and there is NO prescriptive direction from NFPA on the subject. However, they have been and are being built all over the country and are being sprinklered in some fashion. We can only provide the protection scheme that is most consistant with the experts in our field, FP engineers with risk analysis experience, and provide the protection scheme as determined by them. The consensus from my personal research, at least at this point, is to protect as an Exposed, Unexpanded, Group-A plastic commodity and provide ESFR protection if the building construction allows. I implore those of you with the expertise above and beyond what Travis and I have to weigh in and provide your insights and experiences into this commodity storage. As always, have and AWESOME day! Ray Vance - SET Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. www.waynefire.com (407) 877-5563 office (321) 436-2184 mobile -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: 2009-03-30 5:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: PODs storage again I tried to search the archives, but keep getting a file not found error. I am looking at a PODs storage warehouse. There was a lot of discussion on the forums a while back, but I can't access all of it. The facility I am looking at has 24' storage. What is the general concensus of the protection req'd for these areas? Thanks in advance for your help. Travis Mack, SET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: PODs storage again
The only hole in the thinking of the experts is their opinions are based on WAG not SWAG to my knowledge. I'm not suggesting they are wrong. I'd trust their knowledge a bit more if they had some test data (which doesn't exist) or at least some examples of fires and the outcome. Sure would be nice if they point to a fire with ESFR that was successfully contained. Has that happened and I'm not aware definitely probable. Think of it like this you see a problem with system and the contractor says well I've always done it like that. Doesn't make it right does it? And ESFR scares me a bit with its tendency to either work fully or burn the place down. At least with density systems there is a little reserve in my experience. And I'm totally comfortable if Elley or Rolf sign the design as EOR. Make it LH and I'm cool with their design. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ray Vance Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: PODs storage again Travis, This product commodity falls within the same parameters as boat storage - there is no prescriptive requirement to follow. In fact, NFPA has issued a statement this particular type of storage arrangement is outside the scope of NFPA-13. That being said, I have done a fair amount of research into the PODS type storage arrangements for my own education and can offer the following as a starting point (guidelines) for your consideration. (A) I spoke, at length, with Ms. Elley Klausbruckner at Klausbruckner and Assoc. regarding the general requirements for this PODS type storage and specifically about your particular type of storage arrangement. Ms. Klausbruckner is a fire protection engineer and specializes in HPR risk analysis and protection and has been involved in many warehouse storage arrangements of this PODS/Crate type storage, including the brand name PODS facilities. (B) In all cases except one, they have designed the fire sprinkler system as an Exposed, Unnexpanded, Group-A plastic commodity storage arrangement. (C) In all cases except one, they have designed utilizing ESFR sprinklers, unless the building construction prohibited the ESFR protection. In the scenario where the building construction would not allow ESFR, they designed utilizing the area/density method for the appropriate storage height. (D) In the one case where they did NOT protect as a Group-A plastic commodity the pods/crates were constructed entirely of wood. In this scenario they required a letter from the owner of the facility that the amount of Group-A plastics within the pods/crates at any time were less than 5% to 15% by weight or 5% to 25% by volume. The crate itself was treated as part of the unit load and the entire unit load was classified as a Class-IV commodity. (E) For reference, upholstered furniture is classified as a Class-IV commodity per the IFC 2303.5 (See IFC Figure 2303.7.4) (F) Tyco Fire Products, per their own internal technical document also indicates ESFR protection for PODS type storage that have plastic tops on the containers. (G) An analysis done by Rolf Jensen and Associates and written up in the 2006 Edition of Fire Protection Engineering Magazine suggests the use of ESFR sprinklers for the Group-A plastics scenario as well, but also indicates a dual design area/density as another design option. I know some of our esteemed colleagues are still not entirely comfortable with the determination of the protection schemes for this particular type of storage and there is NO prescriptive direction from NFPA on the subject. However, they have been and are being built all over the country and are being sprinklered in some fashion. We can only provide the protection scheme that is most consistant with the experts in our field, FP engineers with risk analysis experience, and provide the protection scheme as determined by them. The consensus from my personal research, at least at this point, is to protect as an Exposed, Unexpanded, Group-A plastic commodity and provide ESFR protection if the building construction allows. I implore those of you with the expertise above and beyond what Travis and I have to weigh in and provide your insights and experiences into this commodity storage. As always, have and AWESOME day! Ray Vance - SET Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. www.waynefire.com (407) 877-5563 office (321) 436-2184 mobile -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: 2009-03-30 5:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: PODs storage again
RE: PODs storage again
While true initially the HPR then is replaced next year by Billy Bob Joe's Insurance and they sue the contractor when it fails. HPR didn't legally engineer it as they are not the EOR usually even though they often drive a design, Codes don't cover it. You are out on your own at that point. proceed very cautiously is very wise. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 10:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: PODs storage again If the HPR insurance company makes a judgement call on how to protect it and it doesn't work, they pay for the loss. IF this guidance is not in the published HPR Loss Prevention Data sheets, then the consult is making the judgement call. Guess who will likely pay for the loss? Now here's the scary part. If the contractor takes the responsibility and provides the judgement call (typically considered consulting/engineering since guidance is not in 13 or other national standards) who will likely pay the claim? The moral of the story is when NFPA 13 does not address it, proceed very cautiously. Roland On Mar 31, 2009, at 6:50 AM, Chris Cahill wrote: The only hole in the thinking of the experts is their opinions are based on WAG not SWAG to my knowledge. I'm not suggesting they are wrong. I'd trust their knowledge a bit more if they had some test data (which doesn't exist) or at least some examples of fires and the outcome. Sure would be nice if they point to a fire with ESFR that was successfully contained. Has that happened and I'm not aware definitely probable. Think of it like this you see a problem with system and the contractor says well I've always done it like that. Doesn't make it right does it? And ESFR scares me a bit with its tendency to either work fully or burn the place down. At least with density systems there is a little reserve in my experience. And I'm totally comfortable if Elley or Rolf sign the design as EOR. Make it LH and I'm cool with their design. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: PODs storage again
1. If you can get the insurer to spec the design, good. 2. If the EOR spec's the design, protect yourself as best you can. Refer all questions of changes to them so they assume responsibility for every decision. 3. If you as a contractor are asked to make the design decisions, Walk, Run, take a plane to your favorite get away, but refuse the job. Sometimes the best thing for both you and the customer is to not do the job, as presented. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: PODs storage again If the HPR insurance company makes a judgement call on how to protect it and it doesn't work, they pay for the loss. IF this guidance is not in the published HPR Loss Prevention Data sheets, then the consult is making the judgement call. Guess who will likely pay for the loss? Now here's the scary part. If the contractor takes the responsibility and provides the judgement call (typically considered consulting/engineering since guidance is not in 13 or other national standards) who will likely pay the claim? The moral of the story is when NFPA 13 does not address it, proceed very cautiously. Roland ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
PODs storage again
I tried to search the archives, but keep getting a file not found error. I am looking at a PODs storage warehouse. There was a lot of discussion on the forums a while back, but I can't access all of it. The facility I am looking at has 24' storage. What is the general concensus of the protection req'd for these areas? Thanks in advance for your help. Travis Mack, SET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: PODs storage again
I think the consensus was to hang the building for from a fusible link over a pond. Is it a new building? If so it would be interesting to see what the EOR or architect did for a hazard analysis. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: PODs storage again I tried to search the archives, but keep getting a file not found error. I am looking at a PODs storage warehouse. There was a lot of discussion on the forums a while back, but I can't access all of it. The facility I am looking at has 24' storage. What is the general concensus of the protection req'd for these areas? Thanks in advance for your help. Travis Mack, SET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: PODs storage again
Ron, it's better not to use hangers on this one, put it under water. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: PODs storage again I think the consensus was to hang the building for from a fusible link over a pond. Is it a new building? If so it would be interesting to see what the EOR or architect did for a hazard analysis. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: PODs storage again I tried to search the archives, but keep getting a file not found error. I am looking at a PODs storage warehouse. There was a lot of discussion on the forums a while back, but I can't access all of it. The facility I am looking at has 24' storage. What is the general concensus of the protection req'd for these areas? Thanks in advance for your help. Travis Mack, SET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
