Re: Racks wider than 4ft...sprinklers needed below?

[Roland Huggins]

What criteria is being used to require said sprinkler. A 4 ft wide is 
irrelevant for a rack.   What is the rack shelf area and does it comply with 
16.1.6 regarding solid shelving? 

Roland
 
Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org 

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




> On Apr 21, 2017, at 4:53 AM, Dewayne Martinez 
>  wrote:
> 
> NFPA 13 (07ed)
> I have an inspector that is requesting in-rack sprinklers for a single row 
> rack located along an outside wall because the rack shelves are wider than 
> 4ft (open shelve).  The OHS is capable of protecting the racks W/O in-rack 
> sprinklers.  Is there something in NFPA to address this either way?
> Thanks,
> Dewayne
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RE: Racks wider than 4ft...sprinklers needed below?

[Dewayne Martinez]

Update….These are racks that are in front of the loading docks which have
“high lift “ overhead doors so there is a clear area in front of each door
under the rack level.  The AHJ wants HSW sprinklers under the racks in
these areas because they are over 4ft wide and if they are full of product
will act like an overhead door.  I don’t feel we need additional
protection  here….Who Is right?



*From:* Dewayne Martinez [mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com]
*Sent:* Friday, April 21, 2017 7:01 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Cc:* dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
*Subject:* RE: Racks wider than 4ft...sprinklers needed below?



Never mind, I found it in the definition of single row rack – 6ft wide.



*From:* Dewayne Martinez [mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com]
*Sent:* Friday, April 21, 2017 6:54 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Cc:* dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
*Subject:* Racks wider than 4ft...sprinklers needed below?



NFPA 13 (07ed)

I have an inspector that is requesting in-rack sprinklers for a single row
rack located along an outside wall because the rack shelves are wider than
4ft (open shelve).  The OHS is capable of protecting the racks W/O in-rack
sprinklers.  Is there something in NFPA to address this either way?

Thanks,

Dewayne
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RE: Racks wider than 4ft...sprinklers needed below?

[Dewayne Martinez]

Never mind, I found it in the definition of single row rack – 6ft wide.



*From:* Dewayne Martinez [mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com]
*Sent:* Friday, April 21, 2017 6:54 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Cc:* dmarti...@total-mechanical.com
*Subject:* Racks wider than 4ft...sprinklers needed below?



NFPA 13 (07ed)

I have an inspector that is requesting in-rack sprinklers for a single row
rack located along an outside wall because the rack shelves are wider than
4ft (open shelve).  The OHS is capable of protecting the racks W/O in-rack
sprinklers.  Is there something in NFPA to address this either way?

Thanks,

Dewayne
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RE: Racks

[Matthew J. Willis]

Yes,

If the alarms work, and water flows, pass the system and move on. Unless of
course you were doing a NFPA 13 Inspection/evaluation.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fire
Protection Services
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:47 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Racks

Forum,

 

I performed an Inspection a few days ago and the building is design as Ord2
with the exception of the shipping area which is Class 3.

I noticed in a few areas they have installed on single rack against the
outside wall with misc storage stacked at various heights.

I  have never seen one independent rack sprinklered but it looks like to me
it should be.

Has anyone ran into this before? What did you do?

 

Thanks

 

Chris Payne

Fire Protection Services

Owensboro

 

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RE: Racks

[Mark A. Sornsin, P.E.]

Chris - there are a couple issues:

1.  This was part of an inspection?  If done per NFPA 25, you would not be 
evaluating the adequacy of protection - though as been suggested many times on 
this Forum, you may consider a separate note apart from the inspection forms 
indicating a concern that there may be an issue. I would suggest you recommend 
an evaluation by a qualified engineer. You've addressed a concern without 
declaring a position (a task for which you were not hired).

2.  Ignoring 'why' you were able to see this arrangement, the answer to 
your question could very well be, 'yes, they need to add in-rack sprinklers.'  
Let's look at an extreme case: You have a warehouse of metal parts storage 
solid piled, with single row racks of expanded plastics to 20 ft. along the 
exterior walls.  Certainly we can see that OH2 is inadequate for the plastics 
so in-racks would be needed (maybe even a higher density at the ceiling). Your 
case, while maybe not as stark a contrast in storage, isn't really different. 
It all depends on the shelving methods, storage heights, and the actual 
commodity classification of the misc. storage in those racks. But you very well 
could have a situation where one single-row rack requires in-racks.

Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | 
Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | 
http://www.kfiengineers.com

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fire 
Protection Services
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:47 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Racks

Forum,



I performed an Inspection a few days ago and the building is design as Ord2 
with the exception of the shipping area which is Class 3.

I noticed in a few areas they have installed on single rack against the outside 
wall with misc storage stacked at various heights.

I  have never seen one independent rack sprinklered but it looks like to me it 
should be.

Has anyone ran into this before? What did you do?



Thanks



Chris Payne

Fire Protection Services

Owensboro



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RE: Racks

[Fire Protection Services]

Thanks for your replies Matt and Mark

They asked if they needed sprinklers in the racks and I was just checking on
their behalf. I always write up a situation like this as needing a
evaluation as you desiribed and leave it at that,

Chris

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark A.
Sornsin, P.E.
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:05 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Racks

Chris - there are a couple issues:

1.  This was part of an inspection?  If done per NFPA 25, you would not
be evaluating the adequacy of protection - though as been suggested many
times on this Forum, you may consider a separate note apart from the
inspection forms indicating a concern that there may be an issue. I would
suggest you recommend an evaluation by a qualified engineer. You've
addressed a concern without declaring a position (a task for which you were
not hired).

2.  Ignoring 'why' you were able to see this arrangement, the answer to
your question could very well be, 'yes, they need to add in-rack
sprinklers.'  Let's look at an extreme case: You have a warehouse of metal
parts storage solid piled, with single row racks of expanded plastics to 20
ft. along the exterior walls.  Certainly we can see that OH2 is inadequate
for the plastics so in-racks would be needed (maybe even a higher density at
the ceiling). Your case, while maybe not as stark a contrast in storage,
isn't really different. It all depends on the shelving methods, storage
heights, and the actual commodity classification of the misc. storage in
those racks. But you very well could have a situation where one single-row
rack requires in-racks.

Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
http://www.kfiengineers.com

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fire
Protection Services
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:47 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Racks

Forum,



I performed an Inspection a few days ago and the building is design as Ord2
with the exception of the shipping area which is Class 3.

I noticed in a few areas they have installed on single rack against the
outside wall with misc storage stacked at various heights.

I  have never seen one independent rack sprinklered but it looks like to me
it should be.

Has anyone ran into this before? What did you do?



Thanks



Chris Payne

Fire Protection Services

Owensboro



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Re: Racks

[Todd - Work]

Chris,

The commodity and storage arrangement (length, height, single, double, etc) 
would need to be evaluated. Next the sprinkler system would need to be 
hydraulically evaluated. At that point, you can determine if in rack sprinklers 
are required.

One independent rack can be sprinklered and it could possible be fed from the 
ceiling system. However, your post stated that this occurred in a few areas. 
That needs to be better defined.

The issue on type of inspection has been well covered by others and I won't 
chime in on that.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
www.fpdc.com

On May 29, 2013, at 9:46 AM, Fire Protection Services 
firepro...@roadrunner.com wrote:

 Forum,
 
 
 
 I performed an Inspection a few days ago and the building is design as Ord2
 with the exception of the shipping area which is Class 3.
 
 I noticed in a few areas they have installed on single rack against the
 outside wall with misc storage stacked at various heights.
 
 I  have never seen one independent rack sprinklered but it looks like to me
 it should be.
 
 Has anyone ran into this before? What did you do?
 
 
 
 Thanks
 
 
 
 Chris Payne
 
 Fire Protection Services
 
 Owensboro
 
 
 
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Re: Racks

[Roland Huggins]

Taking a different line of questioning, what is the classification of an 
individual rack (4 ft deep) that is by itself and located against a wall (say 
12 inches off the wall)?

Roland

On May 29, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Fire Protection Services 
firepro...@roadrunner.com wrote:

 I noticed in a few areas they have installed on single rack against the
 outside wall with misc storage stacked at various heights.

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Re: Racks

[ParsleyConsulting]

Could it reasonably meet the definition of miscellaneous storage in 
13?  If so, depending on the commodity, and height of storage, OH2 may 
be the required design.

*

PARSLEY CONSULTING

*

Ken Wagoner

760.745.6181 voice

760.745.0537 fax

website: www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com

On 5/29/2013 7:37 AM, Fire Protection Services wrote:

Todd

This facility has several systems and they have 8 or so single racks.
Most are about 50 feet long and installed up against a wall.
One riser may have a rack,  one riser may not.  Out of 20 risers that are
about 8 racks that are not anywhere near each other.

Chris

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd -
Work
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Racks

Chris,

The commodity and storage arrangement (length, height, single, double, etc)
would need to be evaluated. Next the sprinkler system would need to be
hydraulically evaluated. At that point, you can determine if in rack
sprinklers are required.

One independent rack can be sprinklered and it could possible be fed from
the ceiling system. However, your post stated that this occurred in a few
areas. That needs to be better defined.

The issue on type of inspection has been well covered by others and I won't
chime in on that.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
www.fpdc.com

On May 29, 2013, at 9:46 AM, Fire Protection Services
firepro...@roadrunner.com wrote:


Forum,



I performed an Inspection a few days ago and the building is design as
Ord2 with the exception of the shipping area which is Class 3.

I noticed in a few areas they have installed on single rack against
the outside wall with misc storage stacked at various heights.

I  have never seen one independent rack sprinklered but it looks like
to me it should be.

Has anyone ran into this before? What did you do?



Thanks



Chris Payne

Fire Protection Services

Owensboro



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RE: Racks

[Matthew J. Willis]

Group A Plastics, with plastic pallets, encapsulation ESFR with pump...

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 11:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Racks

Taking a different line of questioning, what is the classification of an
individual rack (4 ft deep) that is by itself and located against a wall
(say 12 inches off the wall)?

Roland

On May 29, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Fire Protection Services
firepro...@roadrunner.com wrote:

 I noticed in a few areas they have installed on single rack against 
 the outside wall with misc storage stacked at various heights.

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